STIHL.2489 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > > Legendary isn't BiS. It is never required, and there's no reason for it to be. It's strictly a prestige tier. For the purpose of gear progression, Ascended is the top tier and it is accessible through a wide variety of ways. Which comes to support my claim and shows that legendary tier *was intended* to be a prestige tier. > > > > > > and Wrong again. > > > > Legendary's Stat Swapping ability makes it the best gear you can equip, making it BiS, it also removes it from being just a prestige item. Now, legendary was at one time, purely cosmetic or prestige, but, that is no longer the case. Which again, shows the games regression from their foundation principals into generic MMO style of game. > > I think you can safely say that ArenaNet sees Ascended/Legendary stats as BiS gear statistically, even if the QoL feature obviously adds another layer of desirability to it. > > Though you could say they did abandon the principles when they decided to bring in ascended stats, there will (most likely) never be anything above ascended gear in stats at least, and so far that has been true. > > And while I agree that swapping your stats on the fly may be considered better, but it IS still horizontal progression. When you pick any stat for your legendary gear you will never be more powerful than someone in ascended gear. And thats what ArenaNet always meant with BiS. Nothing changes that Legendary Gear is still better then Ascended, and this puts undue pressure on people who otherwise would not bother with a cosmetic, to get it for the QoL feature, which, as it stands, will not endear them to them game more, and has a better chance to drive them away. This is an exact trap that other MMO's fall into, a trap that GW2 was looking to avoid, and now jumped right into it. This will hurt them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > Legendary isn't BiS. It is never required, and there's no reason for it to be. It's strictly a prestige tier. For the purpose of gear progression, Ascended is the top tier and it is accessible through a wide variety of ways. Which comes to support my claim and shows that legendary tier *was intended* to be a prestige tier. > > > and Wrong again. > > Legendary's Stat Swapping ability makes it the best gear you can equip, making it BiS, it also removes it from being just a prestige item. Now, legendary was at one time, purely cosmetic or prestige, but, that is no longer the case. Which again, shows the games regression from their foundation principals into generic MMO style of game. Perhaps I'm wrong. But strangely enough, the status quo of the game kind of agrees with me. Again. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. They might CHOOSE to not participate. That's NOT the same thing and if you continue to say so, I can only think it's because you believe making purposefully dishonest statements makes your argument stronger. It does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 You keep saying exclude ... but that's not being honest. I guess that won't change here because you're simply saying anything to suit your points but there is another point that you bring up that just doesn't jive with how MMO's work. Generally loot is a hierarchy; the better the loot, the harder it is to get. Harder can mean lots of things, but on this I think no one can dispute... but for some reason, you think that the best loot in this game should be made EASIER to get, that it should cater to the wants of 'the majority'. Also, you have some idea that these decisions should involve what a few forum warriors think things should be and you speak for everyone in the majority that are 'ignored'. I'm not sure how to answer that ... Anet's decision isn't a democracy; players DON'T get a vote. That doesn't mean Anet has ignored players; it just means they are restricted in ways that they haven't implemented the idea. That doesn't exclude the fact that they just think you are dead wrong either, but it could also mean it's a great idea and they simply can't do it. Dev implementing a system for the highest tier of gear that doesn't appeal to how the 'majority' of players are willing to earn it isn't a problem because 1) it's not unreasonable to think that the majority of players doesn't get the best loot and 2) you don't get to specify your own tasklist to earn something. This is how every MMO works; fewer people are going to get the best loot and loot is locked behind 'things' that you have to do. Their isn't an argument that makes any sense to dispute how those things work; this isn't an experiment in MMO methodology at the Univerisity of Anet; it's a real business that has a market that has some idea of what MMO's are about. If your idea of how you should be able to get loot in an MMO is SO far from the methods implemented in ... lots of MMOs (I don't know how many), then that just tells me ... there is something that can't be done to do that, whether that's a business thing, a practical limitation, maybe a real programming issue I don't know about , perhaps even some philosophical argument that the majority SHOULDN'T have the best loot ... whatever it is, this restriction affects LOTS of MMO's, so it's not just some fleeting bad decision on Anet's part to not spread the Leg Gear love to the majority of players. That's where your whole argument falls apart ... you have NO idea why it's the way it is ingame, yet you scattershot arguments for why it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > In a way, not creating more ways towards legendary gear is ignoring the minority in favour of the majority that doesnt care about legendary gear. Not that its clear at all that there is a majority whose preferences are so well encompassed that you can say that game devs are intentionally ignoring what their players want at all to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > In a way, not creating more ways towards legendary gear is ignoring the minority in favour of the majority that doesnt care about legendary gear. > > Not that its clear at all that there is a majority whose preferences are so well encompassed that you can say that game devs are intentionally ignoring what their players want at all to begin with. Exactly, 'speaking for the majority' is SUCH a self serving argument here ... I wasn't going to touch it but at this point, it's clear that people are willing to say any kind of nonsense to justify their position that basically boils down to "_I'm too lazy to do content I don't like to get loot I want_". At this point, I would have more respect for someone that just stated they were too lazy to do the content and they just want the gear ... at least that's honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > > Legendary isn't BiS. It is never required, and there's no reason for it to be. It's strictly a prestige tier. For the purpose of gear progression, Ascended is the top tier and it is accessible through a wide variety of ways. Which comes to support my claim and shows that legendary tier *was intended* to be a prestige tier. > > > > > > and Wrong again. > > > > Legendary's Stat Swapping ability makes it the best gear you can equip, making it BiS, it also removes it from being just a prestige item. Now, legendary was at one time, purely cosmetic or prestige, but, that is no longer the case. Which again, shows the games regression from their foundation principals into generic MMO style of game. > > Perhaps I'm wrong. But strangely enough, the status quo of the game kind of agrees with me. Again. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe... I am sure there is a 100% correlation that they are doing things you agree with and their sales being in continual decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > > > > Legendary isn't BiS. It is never required, and there's no reason for it to be. It's strictly a prestige tier. For the purpose of gear progression, Ascended is the top tier and it is accessible through a wide variety of ways. Which comes to support my claim and shows that legendary tier *was intended* to be a prestige tier. > > > > > > > > > and Wrong again. > > > > > > Legendary's Stat Swapping ability makes it the best gear you can equip, making it BiS, it also removes it from being just a prestige item. Now, legendary was at one time, purely cosmetic or prestige, but, that is no longer the case. Which again, shows the games regression from their foundation principals into generic MMO style of game. > > > > Perhaps I'm wrong. But strangely enough, the status quo of the game kind of agrees with me. Again. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe... > > I am sure there is a 100% correlation that they are doing things you agree with and their sales being in continual decline. Which is yet another of your baseless jumps to conclusion. Correlation does not imply causation and all that, not to mention that declines in sales are perfectly normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. Some might end up making a single weapon, but that's it. I expect the majority of the casual owners of one actually bought it on the trading post. This, however isn't really exclusion. It's diversification. The problem is, if the legendaries were accessible enough for the majority of the playerbase, it would leave the game without any long-term goals for the more dedicated players. Yeah, there's the AP hunt, the titles, the collections. But these do not appeal to everyone. Hence, the game needs something of more or less universal appeal which actually takes time and effort. And in this, it becomes inaccessible to said majority. The legendary armor is perceived as different, but it really isn't. Yes, in theory every casual player can get a legendary weapon of choice and they can't do the same with the armor. In practice, this difference becomes almost non-existent. And even more so, irrelevant. Are you going to tell me casual players care so much about changing stats? That they switch builds all the time and absolutely need the perfect stat sets for their builds? Come on, that's preposterous. So if care enough about the functionality to take advantage of it, then you're invested enough in the game to get the armor one way or another. And if you're not invested, then you don't really need it. Either way it's fine. You have to realize, when you design a game you don't design it for each player individually. It's good to care about each individual experience, but it is impossible to make them all perfect because players simply have too different expectations. You can't please everyone *with everything*. What you can do is please everyone with different things. That's why the game has different game modes, content of varying difficulties, worthwhile rewards spread in both casual and hardcore content. Diversification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Edit N/m this old man cant make it play at the time he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more > > I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more > > I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. Depends on how you define "casual". Apparently, we treat people who play open world PvE for 5 years as casuals if they don't do fractals or raids. I'm doing an experiment these days to see how easy WvW legendary armor can be got. I started about 3 weeks ago to play WvW daily and casual. I need 200 more claim tickets for my first legendary armor piece. I only take camps and do other easy stuff, definitely casual. It's basically like doing SW or Istan but you have lots of breaks and only need to move and take a camp every 8 minutes or so to keep participation up. In the last two weeks, I found it easy to complete the diamond stage (especially over Easter holidays). Even open world PvE is not as casual as what I'm doing in WvW. The difference is that every minute I spend there brings me closer to legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more > > > > I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. > > Depends on how you define "casual". Apparently, we treat people who play open world PvE for 5 years as casuals if they don't do fractals or raids. I'm doing an experiment these days to see how easy WvW legendary armor can be got. I started about 3 weeks ago to play WvW daily and casual. I need 200 more claim tickets for my first legendary armor piece. I only take camps and do other easy stuff, definitely casual. It's basically like doing SW or Istan but you have lots of breaks and only need to move and take a camp every 8 minutes or so to keep participation up. In the last two weeks, I found it easy to complete the diamond stage (especially over Easter holidays). Even open world PvE is not as casual as what I'm doing in WvW. The difference is that every minute I spend there brings me closer to legendary armor. If you completed Diamond, you're spending far, far more time than a casual player in WvW. You *could* be getting a lot of Outnumbered pips to get it in much less time, but then your experience is hardly representative. Sounds more like you put the game on a backburner and did something else, milking afk pips in the process, but again, that's not something a casual player would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > A casual wvwer can get legendary armor,just not in 22 weeks. Maybe in a year and a half, if not more > > > > I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. > > Depends on how you define "casual". Apparently, we treat people who play open world PvE for 5 years as casuals if they don't do fractals or raids. I'm doing an experiment these days to see how easy WvW legendary armor can be got. I started about 3 weeks ago to play WvW daily and casual. I need 200 more claim tickets for my first legendary armor piece. I only take camps and do other easy stuff, definitely casual. It's basically like doing SW or Istan but you have lots of breaks and only need to move and take a camp every 8 minutes or so to keep participation up. In the last two weeks, I found it easy to complete the diamond stage (especially over Easter holidays). Even open world PvE is not as casual as what I'm doing in WvW. The difference is that every minute I spend there brings me closer to legendary armor. A casual player wont play 20+ hours/week for Diamond chest. Unless your rank is silver or above, where pips are more per tick, and all your pips have the outnumbered bonus(pretty hard to pull off continously) , there is nothing casual about a bronze or below player spending so much time getting Diamond, or even platinum chest. EDIT: Since WvW is a casual way (camp capping every 8 mins, for instance) of getting leggy armor, why add more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > EDIT: Since WvW is a casual way (camp capping every 8 mins, for instance) of getting leggy armor, why add more? Major arguments here against adding legendary armor to content outside raids, WvW or PvP is that it shouldn't be easy to get, that it should require skills that not everybody posseses and some form of commitment and teamwork. I'm showing that getting WvW legendary armor requires no skill or teamwork at all, is easy to get and requires little commitment compared to raiding. (I cannot tell how easy/hard the PvP path is because I never set foot into that environment.) When I get my first armor piece (probably this weekend) I'll post more details so people can see how to get their legendary armor in WvW. My point is that WvW players can just play the game they like and will get legendary armor. The only reason I can find for locking PvE armor behind raids is the skins. Let's look at WvW, you can easily get normal looking legendary armor, but to get the shiny skins, you really have to show serious (almost crazy) commitment, I cannot imagine how one can reach rank 2k in WvW really, it must take years. PvE and WvW are not treated equally. I do not suggest that the simple legendary armor be removed from WvW, but that a simple legendary armor version be added to PvE. Or maybe this inequality between the game modes is wanted by Anet, honestly, I cannot tell. I wonder what would happen if suddenly 10000 PvE players started doing WvW for legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > I argue that after spending year and a half in WvW you cannot really be classified as "casual" any more. Being casual is often more the description of the way you play the game, not of the time you spend on it. There are casuals that play for hours every day, and hardcores that can barely scrape few hours weekly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > EDIT: Since WvW is a casual way (camp capping every 8 mins, for instance) of getting leggy armor, why add more? > > Major arguments here against adding legendary armor to content outside raids, WvW or PvP is that it shouldn't be easy to get, that it should require skills that not everybody posseses and some form of commitment and teamwork. I'm showing that getting WvW legendary armor requires no skill or teamwork at all, is easy to get and requires little commitment compared to raiding. (I cannot tell how easy/hard the PvP path is because I never set foot into that environment.) > > When I get my first armor piece (probably this weekend) I'll post more details so people can see how to get their legendary armor in WvW. > > My point is that WvW players can just play the game they like and will get legendary armor. The only reason I can find for locking PvE armor behind raids is the skins. Let's look at WvW, you can easily get normal looking legendary armor, but to get the shiny skins, you really have to show serious (almost crazy) commitment, I cannot imagine how one can reach rank 2k in WvW really, it must take years. > > PvE and WvW are not treated equally. I do not suggest that the simple legendary armor be removed from WvW, but that a simple legendary armor version be added to PvE. > > Or maybe this inequality between the game modes is wanted by Anet, honestly, I cannot tell. I wonder what would happen if suddenly 10000 PvE players started doing WvW for legendary armor. If your point is that a WvWer can get WvW leggy armor, I agree. It may seem casual _to a WvW player _ to get the tickets every week . While that is being said, it is by no means easy for a low rank non WvWer. WvW leggy armor requires a much greater commitment, time-wise, when compared to a PvE raider's time commitment (efffort is another thing), about 20+ hours/week at least. No PvE raiding lasts that long, at least when someone gets the basics of every encounter As for the pve to WvW comparison, about being treated unequally, I wholeheartedly agree: PvE (open world PvE) has far better rewards than WvW. WvW was and is the heavily underrewarded mode. The occasional lucky drop of a core-stat ring, is laughable. Mist talismans, while available, require tickets. Which are time-gated, as opposed to LS3 map currency, which is farmable with multiple chars/day. So... The discrepancy is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > In a way, not creating more ways towards legendary gear is ignoring the minority in favour of the majority that doesnt care about legendary gear. > > > > Not that its clear at all that there is a majority whose preferences are so well encompassed that you can say that game devs are intentionally ignoring what their players want at all to begin with. > > Exactly, 'speaking for the majority' is SUCH a self serving argument here ... I wasn't going to touch it but at this point, it's clear that people are willing to say any kind of nonsense to justify their position that basically boils down to "_I'm too lazy to do content I don't like to get loot I want_". > > At this point, I would have more respect for someone that just stated they were too lazy to do the content and they just want the gear ... at least that's honest. so you're saying that preference boils down on laziness? now that's nonsense to justify your agenda, not everyone likes raids but still wants the gear. then again, i personally only care about the skin, i don't give one rat's butt about the stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > > Indeed. The problem is that all three available paths happen to exclude a majority of players. Together, not individually. Majority of players play pve, and do not raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that is not a reasonable assessment. NO one is excluded from ANY of the paths for legendary gear. > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > In a way, not creating more ways towards legendary gear is ignoring the minority in favour of the majority that doesnt care about legendary gear. > > > > > > Not that its clear at all that there is a majority whose preferences are so well encompassed that you can say that game devs are intentionally ignoring what their players want at all to begin with. > > > > Exactly, 'speaking for the majority' is SUCH a self serving argument here ... I wasn't going to touch it but at this point, it's clear that people are willing to say any kind of nonsense to justify their position that basically boils down to "_I'm too lazy to do content I don't like to get loot I want_". > > > > At this point, I would have more respect for someone that just stated they were too lazy to do the content and they just want the gear ... at least that's honest. > > so you're saying that preference boils down on laziness? > now that's nonsense to justify your agenda, not everyone likes raids but still wants the gear. > then again, i personally only care about the skin, i don't give one rat's butt about the stats. What if it only took ONE raid to get the all the Leg. gear you wanted? Are you going to tell me you wouldn't do ONE raid to get leg gear? You're kidding yourself if you believe you don't do things in MMO's you don't like to get gear you want. The only thing that stops you from doing something you don't like to get gear you want is that you have a limit of how much time you are willing to do something you don't like to get it. It happens all the time because that's how MMo's work. maybe you don't like I classified that as 'lazy' ... get over it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Having BiS gear limited by the ways it can be obtained isn't even a problem to begin with. The problem here is that there isn't paths the way people want them, not that those alternate paths don't already exist. > > > > > > > > > > Legendary isn't BiS. It is never required, and there's no reason for it to be. It's strictly a prestige tier. For the purpose of gear progression, Ascended is the top tier and it is accessible through a wide variety of ways. Which comes to support my claim and shows that legendary tier *was intended* to be a prestige tier. > > > > > > > > > > > > and Wrong again. > > > > > > > > Legendary's Stat Swapping ability makes it the best gear you can equip, making it BiS, it also removes it from being just a prestige item. Now, legendary was at one time, purely cosmetic or prestige, but, that is no longer the case. Which again, shows the games regression from their foundation principals into generic MMO style of game. > > > > > > Perhaps I'm wrong. But strangely enough, the status quo of the game kind of agrees with me. Again. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe... > > > > I am sure there is a 100% correlation that they are doing things you agree with and their sales being in continual decline. > > Which is yet another of your baseless jumps to conclusion. Correlation does not imply causation and all that, not to mention that declines in sales are perfectly normal. and.. Wrong Again. Pre-HoT sales were not in decline at all. Now, I am not being rude, but, given your consistent record of being wrong, and ill informed, I would say, there is some direct correlation between them doing something you think is a good idea and it hurting them in some manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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