Voltekka.2375 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"flog.3485" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > Let's say, just for arguments sake, that Anet implements a pve way to get legendary gear, besides raiding. Let's say it would take at least 35 weeks (an example, nothing more), and it would require big grinding from LS3 maps, PoF maps, events, you name it. Also, a bit more costly. No unique skin, just an already existing skin. Would you agree with it? It certainly does not devalue the effort raiders put into their armor, as it is unique and easily recognisable (it is fashion wars, after all). > > > > > > > > I personally expect a new PvE path to legendary armour to be a big part of the next expansion (or perhaps the one after that). I don't see them adding it to an existing expansion. It'll have a unique skin but nothing as complex as the raid PvE skins, (ie probably not animated like the raid skin). > > > > > > > > But yeah, I think that like you say it'll be a long time gated process that'll probably require you to collect parts from the LS season 5 episodes. > > > > > > > > > > It would be unfair if the devs developed a legendary armor in open world content without the animated feature. > > > > Unfair? Why? Wvw leggy and pvp leggy armor have no unique animated skin. > > I just think that, in the context of PvE, if the devs decide to put on equal foot a player getting a leg armor through open world and another through raid content, both type should be allowed to access the concept of animated armor because both type of player are playing PvE. It would not have the same animation nor the same skin of course. > > Comparing a player getting leg armor in PvE, WvW or SPvP is irrelevant because the content provided these game modes are not the same and they don’t provide the same amount of sub game modes, which make it hard for the devs to articulate the process of getting the armor in the first place imo. > > If we were in a perfect world with infinite resources, I think it would be good to have WvW and PvP armor have their own legendary armor with unique skins and animated parts. Because ulmtimately I think that it is not so good to not have this possibility but since these game modes already have a struggling player base and they don’t have a variety of structured sub modes within themselves... Raids and open world are not on equal foot on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > Let's say, just for arguments sake, that Anet implements a pve way to get legendary gear, besides raiding. Let's say it would take at least 35 weeks (an example, nothing more), and it would require big grinding from LS3 maps, PoF maps, events, you name it. Also, a bit more costly. No unique skin, just an already existing skin. Would you agree with it? It certainly does not devalue the effort raiders put into their armor, as it is unique and easily recognisable (it is fashion wars, after all). > > > > > > > > > > I personally expect a new PvE path to legendary armour to be a big part of the next expansion (or perhaps the one after that). I don't see them adding it to an existing expansion. It'll have a unique skin but nothing as complex as the raid PvE skins, (ie probably not animated like the raid skin). > > > > > > > > > > But yeah, I think that like you say it'll be a long time gated process that'll probably require you to collect parts from the LS season 5 episodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be unfair if the devs developed a legendary armor in open world content without the animated feature. > > > > > > Unfair? Why? Wvw leggy and pvp leggy armor have no unique animated skin. > > > > I just think that, in the context of PvE, if the devs decide to put on equal foot a player getting a leg armor through open world and another through raid content, both type should be allowed to access the concept of animated armor because both type of player are playing PvE. It would not have the same animation nor the same skin of course. > > > > Comparing a player getting leg armor in PvE, WvW or SPvP is irrelevant because the content provided these game modes are not the same and they don’t provide the same amount of sub game modes, which make it hard for the devs to articulate the process of getting the armor in the first place imo. > > > > If we were in a perfect world with infinite resources, I think it would be good to have WvW and PvP armor have their own legendary armor with unique skins and animated parts. Because ulmtimately I think that it is not so good to not have this possibility but since these game modes already have a struggling player base and they don’t have a variety of structured sub modes within themselves... > > Raids and open world are not on equal foot on anything. Yes exactly, hence why designing an open wold way of getting a legendary armor is a waste of resources imo. Edit: they do share the same combat mechanics in a 100% cooperative content however, which is basically all you need to know about in terms of PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > Well, I started about 4 weeks ago and yesterday got the legendary chest piece. If I can do this within 4 weeks by simply and casually capping camps with my double pistol thief, I really don't know what you are doing in WvW to not get enough claim tickets. My rank is 114 btw. > > > > Again, a piece in 4 weeks is anything but casual. You're seeing it as one, but in exactly the same manner I could say "you can just casually clear the raid wings every Monday and get the Envoy in no time". And at some point it does *seem* casual. But not to a casual player. > > Are you kidding me? There's a bunch of people doing what I did in WvW, we are called "kitten PvE pip farmers". Do you really believe you can just as easily raid as you can farm pips??? > > You need zero skills to get legendary armor in WvW. You are delusional when you seriously compare that to raiding, and you slap raiders right into the face by making that claim. You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > > > Well, I started about 4 weeks ago and yesterday got the legendary chest piece. If I can do this within 4 weeks by simply and casually capping camps with my double pistol thief, I really don't know what you are doing in WvW to not get enough claim tickets. My rank is 114 btw. > > > > > > Again, a piece in 4 weeks is anything but casual. You're seeing it as one, but in exactly the same manner I could say "you can just casually clear the raid wings every Monday and get the Envoy in no time". And at some point it does *seem* casual. But not to a casual player. > > > > Are you kidding me? There's a bunch of people doing what I did in WvW, we are called "kitten PvE pip farmers". Do you really believe you can just as easily raid as you can farm pips??? > > > > You need zero skills to get legendary armor in WvW. You are delusional when you seriously compare that to raiding, and you slap raiders right into the face by making that claim. > > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > > > > > Well, I started about 4 weeks ago and yesterday got the legendary chest piece. If I can do this within 4 weeks by simply and casually capping camps with my double pistol thief, I really don't know what you are doing in WvW to not get enough claim tickets. My rank is 114 btw. > > > > > > > > Again, a piece in 4 weeks is anything but casual. You're seeing it as one, but in exactly the same manner I could say "you can just casually clear the raid wings every Monday and get the Envoy in no time". And at some point it does *seem* casual. But not to a casual player. > > > > > > Are you kidding me? There's a bunch of people doing what I did in WvW, we are called "kitten PvE pip farmers". Do you really believe you can just as easily raid as you can farm pips??? > > > > > > You need zero skills to get legendary armor in WvW. You are delusional when you seriously compare that to raiding, and you slap raiders right into the face by making that claim. > > > > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. Dunno mate, I play WvW on a regular basis since before the reward restructuring and the introduction of legendary armor there. And I still don't have nearly enough tickets for a single set. As opposed to that, playing in PvE made me want to try "stupid raids" and I found out I liked these. It wasn't easy to start - it's a matter of finding a group, mostly - but eventually I made all 3 sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > > > > > Well, I started about 4 weeks ago and yesterday got the legendary chest piece. If I can do this within 4 weeks by simply and casually capping camps with my double pistol thief, I really don't know what you are doing in WvW to not get enough claim tickets. My rank is 114 btw. > > > > > > > > Again, a piece in 4 weeks is anything but casual. You're seeing it as one, but in exactly the same manner I could say "you can just casually clear the raid wings every Monday and get the Envoy in no time". And at some point it does *seem* casual. But not to a casual player. > > > > > > Are you kidding me? There's a bunch of people doing what I did in WvW, we are called "kitten PvE pip farmers". Do you really believe you can just as easily raid as you can farm pips??? > > > > > > You need zero skills to get legendary armor in WvW. You are delusional when you seriously compare that to raiding, and you slap raiders right into the face by making that claim. > > > > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > Ok, let me rephrase. Anet knows that the majority of their players are PvE. They also knew that a majority of the pve players will not raid - in fact, that was the voiced intention behind the mode. So when they decided to place legendary armor in raids (and then pvp and wvw) they also knew they are placing them in the parts of content most of their players do not participate in. > > > > > > > > > > That design does exclude that majority of players. Not by placing some hard barriers, impossible to pass, but by intentionally ignoring the preferences of said majority. > > > > > > > > > > If game devs intentionally ignoring majority of their players is not a problem, then i don't know what is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same could be said for each and every legendary in the game. Let's face it, they all practically exclude casual players, because they take way too much effort for a casual player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of casual players in WvW, so that's not true. If you play WvW casually, you will be able to craft legendary armor at some point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wouldn't. I'm playing WvW more than "casually" since before the introduction of the new reward system and I'm still far from getting a single set. The sheer time investment there means you're not a casual if you do it. Same as for getting a legendary weapon. Like I said, yes, it is possible in theory. But it is extremely rare in practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I started about 4 weeks ago and yesterday got the legendary chest piece. If I can do this within 4 weeks by simply and casually capping camps with my double pistol thief, I really don't know what you are doing in WvW to not get enough claim tickets. My rank is 114 btw. > > > > > > > > > > Again, a piece in 4 weeks is anything but casual. You're seeing it as one, but in exactly the same manner I could say "you can just casually clear the raid wings every Monday and get the Envoy in no time". And at some point it does *seem* casual. But not to a casual player. > > > > > > > > Are you kidding me? There's a bunch of people doing what I did in WvW, we are called "kitten PvE pip farmers". Do you really believe you can just as easily raid as you can farm pips??? > > > > > > > > You need zero skills to get legendary armor in WvW. You are delusional when you seriously compare that to raiding, and you slap raiders right into the face by making that claim. > > > > > > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. Yeah, I think it's fairly inevitable that they will introduce open world legendary armour (as I said I think it will be a major feature of probably the next expansion) and I think it will have a similar level of time-gating to the other modes so I would guess it will take a minimum of somewhere between 18-29 weeks per set probably closer to 29 weeks. Time-gating and grind are the cornerstones of how ArenaNet design their rewards in all game modes (a slow drip of required currencies or materials to keep people playing) so I think it's pretty much _guaranteed_ that any open world PvE armour will follow the same pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > Let's say, just for arguments sake, that Anet implements a pve way to get legendary gear, besides raiding. Let's say it would take at least 35 weeks (an example, nothing more), and it would require big grinding from LS3 maps, PoF maps, events, you name it. Also, a bit more costly. No unique skin, just an already existing skin. Would you agree with it? It certainly does not devalue the effort raiders put into their armor, as it is unique and easily recognisable (it is fashion wars, after all). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally expect a new PvE path to legendary armour to be a big part of the next expansion (or perhaps the one after that). I don't see them adding it to an existing expansion. It'll have a unique skin but nothing as complex as the raid PvE skins, (ie probably not animated like the raid skin). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah, I think that like you say it'll be a long time gated process that'll probably require you to collect parts from the LS season 5 episodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be unfair if the devs developed a legendary armor in open world content without the animated feature. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it'd be unfair at all, perhaps they could have some other nice effects on entering combat rather than animating the armour. I think they spent a lot of time on the heavy raid armour but the light and medium kinda got shafted because it was so time consuming. I'd rather simpler armour to none anyway. > > > > > > > > > > I'd settle for a nice short jacket on medium. Maybe a helm that went from a collar or headband to a full helm on entering combat. > > > > > > > > The issue is that Leg armor from PvP and WvW does not have any unique animations (WvW Sublime Mistforged Chestpiece has a back animation _but this is available at ascended tier_). Payers who obtained /are obtaining those versions would be up in arms if a PvE "go hit some crabs on the beach and then collect some shiny pebbles" alternative had more to offer. > > > > As mentioned many times, one of the main conditions which were negotiated to allow Leg armor to be acquirable outside of raids, was the fact that it would **not** have the same "prestigious" levels of animation. > > > > If for some bizarre reason PvEers outside of raids were able to acquire Leg armor _with_ additional animations, PvP and WvW sets would almost certainly require the same treatment. On the whole, that's a huge amount of work - 3 weights, 3 sources(pvp/wvw/pve), 5 races, 2 genders equates to 90 sets to animate > > > > > > This is EXACTLY what my post is about. Do people really want open world leggy armor, without any concern if it is the same skin as an existing regular skin, or do people want unique leggy skins with less effort than raiding? > > > > Less Effort is deceptive. I think the main problem is there are a lot of people that don't want to have to collaborate with 9 other people, or take orders from someone they would rather throat punch then help out, to get some stupid trinket. > > > > Effort and time are not issue, a long or even complex journey is welcomed by many, even if it would take 52 weeks, of effort, say, a time gated Jump Puzzles, that can only be done once a week, and you need to do them 52 times in order to get the mats needed, would still be a better option to some then dealing with a doing a Raid. > > > > Personally, I think it's a bad move on Anet's part to not have a Core and PoF means to acquire Legendary Armor, I also think it's a bad move that they don't have a HoT and PoF means to get a legendary back item. > > So have a character parked at end of a jump puzzle for 52 week is effort now? Humm yah.. I remember all those players parked at the end of Mad King.. year after year.. Oh wait.. In fact I have someone parked at the end of Obsidian Sanctum.. oh.. wait.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Their original design philosophy has nothing to do with not having QoL upgrades on higher level tiers of armor. That's not a deviation ... every teir of armor is better in some way than the previous one. > > This is totally false, and not knowing this, shows why you don't understand why the current set up is a deviation. > > Originally Legendary was Identical to Exotic. > > When Ascended was Introduced, Legendary was made Identical to Ascended. > > So no, every tier was not always better. It is only recently that they opted to make Legendary something better then all other tiers, which makes it a deviation from what things were originally. > > Just giving you this for your information. That's a good story but the fact remains that it was changed BECAUSE of the reason I stated. The expectation is that higher tiers of gear offer some kind of advantage. The fact that we had these changes is an indication that Anet realized it wasn't how they wanted it to work after all. You can state original design intent all you like, but again, Anet never related original design to any statement about gear levels and the advantages they give players in the first place; you're just making that up because it sounds really compelling to a company that relies on it as a selling feature. The fact they fixed it should tell you what was ACTUALLY intended, not how you want to imagine it should have been. Fortunately for us, the game is sufficiently aged that there shouldn't be anything wrong with Anet making changes to original design intent if there was a good reason to do so. Stubbornly sticking to original intent isn't always the best idea (Thanks SWTOR!) What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... ah well, I guess if playing both sides of the coin works in your favour, might as well do it ay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. You can literally do whatever in those game modes and still get progression, that's been the whole point the last few pages and now you're telling you need to be involved in the game mode? Funny indeed. I mean I can't disagree that sPvP and WvW don't really have all that much to involve in IE. capturing objectives or playing matches. But you don't really have to involve yourself all too seriously. Not to mention that technically (also some of the complaints) for raids is that it's not accessible because you need to prepare to have fun (mostly , you know outside of raids) as you need to get to level 80, get the right gear, gain some vital masteries (gliding, mushrooms, possibly leyline gliding maybe?) etc. So it's not like you can hide in raids and never come out at all. But hey whatever you feel is right I suppose. I kind of expected you'd have made the more popular point that within those modes you "can play whichever way you want to and still progress". That would've made more sense to me. Ofcourse, whether that is the way legendary gear should be obtained is the point I'm trying to make. And expansion with a legendary armor route to it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Whether that really needs to be what some people here say it needs to be, meh I don't think those details matter too much. Some people will find it ugly, others will find it amazing, others say it will cost too much time etc. Opinions will be formed, players will rejoice and complain at the same time, using similar argumentation. There's always someone kicking up a storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Their original design philosophy has nothing to do with not having QoL upgrades on higher level tiers of armor. That's not a deviation ... every teir of armor is better in some way than the previous one. > > > > This is totally false, and not knowing this, shows why you don't understand why the current set up is a deviation. > > > > Originally Legendary was Identical to Exotic. > > > > When Ascended was Introduced, Legendary was made Identical to Ascended. > > > > So no, every tier was not always better. It is only recently that they opted to make Legendary something better then all other tiers, which makes it a deviation from what things were originally. > > > > Just giving you this for your information. > > That's a good story but the fact remains that it was changed BECAUSE of the reason I stated. The expectation is that higher tiers of gear offer some kind of advantage. The fact that we had these changes is an indication that Anet realized it wasn't how they wanted it to work after all. You can state original design intent all you like, but again, Anet never related original design to any statement about gear levels and the advantages they give players in the first place; you're just making that up because it sounds really compelling to a company that relies on it to sell the game. The fact they fixed it should tell you what was ACTUALLY intended, not how you want to imagine it should have been. All i see is people who claim they cant have leggy armor, who blame devs for not being fair cause they get excluded from content, but in reality just want shinies (exclusive skins) with minimum effort. And OW was is and will be just that: minimum effort. You can do all aurora content with groups and mesmers. Seriously. I am in favor of OW Leggy armor, as Long as it has an already existing skin. Otherwise, it is grosse unfair to pvpers, wvwers and raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. > > You can literally do whatever in those game modes and still get progression, that's been the whole point the last few pages and now you're telling you need to be involved in the game mode? Funny indeed. I mean I can't disagree that sPvP and WvW don't really have all that much to involve in IE. capturing objectives or playing matches. But you don't really have to involve yourself all too seriously. IIRC, in sPvP you need to play tournament mode to make progress towards legendary armor, so you can't just do whatever. And while you have options on how you contribute to the group, you still have got to contribute. Same with WvW, you have choices on how you go about contributing for your server/world, but you still have put in the time and effort and contribute to the game mode. Either by Solo flipping, Working with with the Zerg, Commanding, or just assisting when called, but in every case, you have to contribute to the overall game mode. With raids, you can hide away in a little clique of 9 other people, and never be a part of the larger game around you. While I don't know much about sPvP, but, That is simply not possible in WvW, no matter what, you will be a part of the larger picture when you go into WvW, and just by going in you open yourself up to be affected by other players, something Raid players never have to do. They literally can ignore everyone outside their squad of 10 people. You never have that convince in WvW, and there are more then enough players on the other teams that are more then happy to remind you of that little aspect of that game mode. See, WvW is not anything like PvE Raids, where the fights are on your terms, you may think flipping a camp is easy and like PvE, but it becomes a whole different game when the other team is not keen on losing that camp. So everything.. and I mean.. everything, just walking about, in WvW opens you up to a elevated risk. > > Not to mention that technically (also some of the complaints) for raids is that it's not accessible because you need to prepare to have fun (mostly , you know outside of raids) as you need to get to level 80, get the right gear, gain some vital masteries (gliding, mushrooms, possibly leyline gliding maybe?) etc. So it's not like you can hide in raids and never come out at all. But hey whatever you feel is right I suppose. > That's more an issue with Anet making a bad addition to the game that goes against their design philosophy, but, someone already said they can go from level 0 to Legendary Armor Ready in 6 days. So, it's not a big deal. > I kind of expected you'd have made the more popular point that within those modes you "can play whichever way you want to and still progress". That would've made more sense to me. Ofcourse, whether that is the way legendary gear should be obtained is the point I'm trying to make. And expansion with a legendary armor route to it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Whether that really needs to be what some people here say it needs to be, meh I don't think those details matter too much. Some people will find it ugly, others will find it amazing, others say it will cost too much time etc. Opinions will be formed, players will rejoice and complain at the same time, using similar argumentation. There's always someone kicking up a storm. > Quite frankly, I feel that WvW should still be a part of Map Completion, and that a Legendary should require someone to master every part of the game, sPvP, WvW, Map Completion, Jump Puzzles, Dungeons, Fractals, World Bosses, and complete a vast array of achievements to have such gear, like the Journey.. just.. MORE. But.. Meh.. if Anet wants to make so that people can hide away and just do fractals, or just do raids.. believe that is somehow "Legendary" worthy, that is on them, but if they are going to make it that campy, they may as well open it up to other mode well.. at the very least a PoF and Core Path for the Armors, like they do with the weapons, and equally so, a HoT and PoF path for the Back Legendary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Their original design philosophy has nothing to do with not having QoL upgrades on higher level tiers of armor. That's not a deviation ... every teir of armor is better in some way than the previous one. > > > > > > This is totally false, and not knowing this, shows why you don't understand why the current set up is a deviation. > > > > > > Originally Legendary was Identical to Exotic. > > > > > > When Ascended was Introduced, Legendary was made Identical to Ascended. > > > > > > So no, every tier was not always better. It is only recently that they opted to make Legendary something better then all other tiers, which makes it a deviation from what things were originally. > > > > > > Just giving you this for your information. > > > > That's a good story but the fact remains that it was changed BECAUSE of the reason I stated. The expectation is that higher tiers of gear offer some kind of advantage. The fact that we had these changes is an indication that Anet realized it wasn't how they wanted it to work after all. You can state original design intent all you like, but again, Anet never related original design to any statement about gear levels and the advantages they give players in the first place; you're just making that up because it sounds really compelling to a company that relies on it to sell the game. The fact they fixed it should tell you what was ACTUALLY intended, not how you want to imagine it should have been. > > All i see is people who claim they cant have leggy armor, who blame devs for not being fair cause they get excluded from content, but in reality just want shinies (exclusive skins) with minimum effort. And OW was is and will be just that: minimum effort. You can do all aurora content with groups and mesmers. Seriously. I am in favor of OW Leggy armor, as Long as it has an already existing skin. Otherwise, it is grosse unfair to pvpers, wvwers and raiders. Which is just silly. You state is that all you see is people who say it's not fair they cant have leggy armor and then end with that if it doesn't use an already existing skin it's unfair for other people. Who cares if it's unfair to one or the other group. That's so subjective and doesn't really state what really is at the basis of the game, which is fun content. It has been pointed out that WvW and PvP legendary armor is already minimum effort, and speculating that an open world PvE armor would be minimum effort is ridiculous. It doesn't exist, you can't say it's minimum effort to begin with. All you can say is that IF they make it it shouldn't become minimum effort. Purely as illustrationg: If they made something akin to triple trouble or maybe even a fairly hard open world event where players need to really work together to gain it or whichever, then it wouldn't be minimum effort either. Think outside your PvP, nonraider, raider, WvW box and then you can make some really interesting suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. Ima kill dolyaks and get the armor. Oo how legendary i feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. > > You can literally do whatever in those game modes and still get progression, that's been the whole point the last few pages and now you're telling you need to be involved in the game mode? Funny indeed. I mean I can't disagree that sPvP and WvW don't really have all that much to involve in IE. capturing objectives or playing matches. But you don't really have to involve yourself all too seriously. > > Not to mention that technically (also some of the complaints) for raids is that it's not accessible because you need to prepare to have fun (mostly , you know outside of raids) as you need to get to level 80, get the right gear, gain some vital masteries (gliding, mushrooms, possibly leyline gliding maybe?) etc. So it's not like you can hide in raids and never come out at all. But hey whatever you feel is right I suppose. > > I kind of expected you'd have made the more popular point that within those modes you "can play whichever way you want to and still progress". That would've made more sense to me. Ofcourse, whether that is the way legendary gear should be obtained is the point I'm trying to make. And expansion with a legendary armor route to it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Whether that really needs to be what some people here say it needs to be, meh I don't think those details matter too much. Some people will find it ugly, others will find it amazing, others say it will cost too much time etc. Opinions will be formed, players will rejoice and complain at the same time, using similar argumentation. There's always someone kicking up a storm. > Even if it was open world for 90% of it there would still be complains because for that 10% you would need to raid o get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. Casual/hardcore playstyle does not need to have anything to do with time invested. We had that discussion before. > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > The issue is that Leg armor from PvP and WvW does not have any unique animations (WvW Sublime Mistforged Chestpiece has a back animation _but this is available at ascended tier_). Payers who obtained /are obtaining those versions would be up in arms if a PvE "go hit some crabs on the beach and then collect some shiny pebbles" alternative had more to offer. Two wrongs do not make a right. As you say, the issue is that _Leg armor from PvP and WvW does not have any unique skin_. That issue should obviously be fixed as well. > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > As mentioned many times, one of the main conditions which were negotiated to allow Leg armor to be acquirable outside of raids, was the fact that it would **not** have the same "prestigious" levels of animation. Which shows the contempt Anet devs have to both PvP modes. Which is hardly a good thing. The fact that it didn't even merit an unique non-animated skin is even worse. > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > If for some bizarre reason PvEers outside of raids were able to acquire Leg armor with additional animations, PvP and WvW sets would almost certainly require the same treatment. Agreed. And i agree that the chances of us seeing another animated armor are close to nil, seeing how the raid one was almost too much of an effort for Anet. It should not stop Anet however from giving all the legendary armor sets (including the hypothetical PvE non-raid one,) unique skins on the level above the normal run-of-the-mill skins. So, definitely with some special effects of the Legendary quality. They could be based on already existing non-legendary skins (which would be a relatively cheap method of achieving desired result), but should be easily identifable . > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Grind is grind. But. Let's see. The aurora collection. It was doable with help from mesmers (you could just skip all hard parts), you could do all achievements easily with a group of people. If OW pve leggy armor ever gets implemented, a lot of stuff will be easily doable with friends, mesmers with portals, etc. Things you cannot do in wvw or pvp, for instance. Should this thing be rewarded with a new, shiny, animated skin? In my opinion, it shouldnt. Actually, i do have one idea of core armor that would be at the same time open to all, but also extremely restrictive (_more_ than envoy one), and require massive grind and hard work that couldn't be easily circumvented by help of others. That would be to make precursors crafted using hellfire/radiant skins. The armor itself would also be real cheap to design on the artist side (just make it radiant/hellfire with color channels, and maybe some additional aura and effects on entering combat). Problem is, that might be a little _too_ restrictive (after all, that would be much harder to get than a raid set). So maybe a skinned legendary as above, and skinless one that costs more but is not so locked. Or my other idea - "expansion" sets that are built up from one specific expansion armor set (in HoT that would be leystone, in PoF that would be likely funerary, or maybe one of the three crafted ones) with only slightly changed look (to make it more easily done by the art devs), and added some glow/effects to make it visibly legendary. > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > People want an OW way for leggy armor? Give it to them, make it need more time to get completed than its other counterparts (wvw - pvp-raid) and give it an already existing skin. But my 2 cents in this story are that people, in fact, ask for unique prestigious skins rather than the functionality of the armor itself. They ask for both, because (among many other things) it is a sign how Anet sees and treats those specific modes (case in point: WvW and SPvP sets). Nobody likes to be a second class citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. > > > > You can literally do whatever in those game modes and still get progression, that's been the whole point the last few pages and now you're telling you need to be involved in the game mode? Funny indeed. I mean I can't disagree that sPvP and WvW don't really have all that much to involve in IE. capturing objectives or playing matches. But you don't really have to involve yourself all too seriously. > > IIRC, in sPvP you need to play tournament mode to make progress towards legendary armor, so you can't just do whatever. And while you have options on how you contribute to the group, you still have got to contribute. > > Same with WvW, you have choices on how you go about contributing for your server/world, but you still have put in the time and effort and contribute to the game mode. Either by Solo flipping, Working with with the Zerg, Commanding, or just assisting when called, but in every case, you have to contribute to the overall game mode. > > With raids, you can hide away in a little clique of 9 other people, and never be a part of the larger game around you. > > While I don't know much about sPvP, but, That is simply not possible in WvW, no matter what, you will be a part of the larger picture when you go into WvW, and just by going in you open yourself up to be affected by other players, something Raid players never have to do. They literally can ignore everyone outside their squad of 10 people. You never have that convince in WvW, and there are more then enough players on the other teams that are more then happy to remind you of that little aspect of that game mode. > > See, WvW is not anything like PvE Raids, where the fights are on your terms, you may think flipping a camp is easy and like PvE, but it becomes a whole different game when the other team is not keen on losing that camp. > > So everything.. and I mean.. everything, just walking about, in WvW opens you up to a elevated risk. > > > > > Not to mention that technically (also some of the complaints) for raids is that it's not accessible because you need to prepare to have fun (mostly , you know outside of raids) as you need to get to level 80, get the right gear, gain some vital masteries (gliding, mushrooms, possibly leyline gliding maybe?) etc. So it's not like you can hide in raids and never come out at all. But hey whatever you feel is right I suppose. > > > > That's more an issue with Anet making a bad addition to the game that goes against their design philosophy, but, someone already said they can go from level 0 to Legendary Armor Ready in 6 days. So, it's not a big deal. > > > I kind of expected you'd have made the more popular point that within those modes you "can play whichever way you want to and still progress". That would've made more sense to me. Ofcourse, whether that is the way legendary gear should be obtained is the point I'm trying to make. And expansion with a legendary armor route to it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Whether that really needs to be what some people here say it needs to be, meh I don't think those details matter too much. Some people will find it ugly, others will find it amazing, others say it will cost too much time etc. Opinions will be formed, players will rejoice and complain at the same time, using similar argumentation. There's always someone kicking up a storm. > > > > Quite frankly, I feel that WvW should still be a part of Map Completion, and that a Legendary should require someone to master every part of the game, sPvP, WvW, Map Completion, Jump Puzzles, Dungeons, Fractals, World Bosses, and complete a vast array of achievements to have such gear, like the Journey.. just.. MORE. > > But.. Meh.. if Anet wants to make so that people can hide away and just do fractals, or just do raids.. believe that is somehow "Legendary" worthy, that is on them, but if they are going to make it that campy, they may as well open it up to other mode well.. at the very least a PoF and Core Path for the Armors, like they do with the weapons, and equally so, a HoT and PoF path for the Back Legendary. > But that's not at all exactly the opposite of what I said at all. If I understand correctly, you just like to see legendary armor, just like legendary weapons to some extend to be reflective of tasks in the entire game mode. And I had to look it up, but parts of legendary armor and even some parts of the collections for legendary armor are from outside of the raids. So you can't hide away in raids at all. You will need some HoT map currencies and rewards at least. The same goes for the back piece. You need to do some jumping puzzles, mini dungeons to get some parts for the legendary back item. While I can see that requiring a large part of the journey to legendary gear consisting of raids or fractals is unappealing to you, I don't see anyone really just hiding away in one part of PvE. And even if so, why care if other people hide away in those modes? As for WvW and sPvP, like I said, they don't really are that deepgoing with their content, all you really can do is play the matches and do the match objectives. So it's not really that weird that those can easily encompass the whole game mode, because the whole game mode for WvW and SPvP revolves around a very select few tasks. That's also why PvE is more liked. There's way more options for diverse challenges and different systems. The strength of PvE is telling a (sort of) story alongside this journey. And while they may have slapped legendary gear on WvW and sPvP, that definitely doesn't feel appropriate for PvE. Also, while legendary weapons may have gone that way due to developer constraints (rather than favourable design) that also shouldn't become the standard for any possible open world legendary armor. Just to "make it fair". Arenanet needs to make more amazing content to do. Not make new routes through more of the same content so that people feel fairly treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Their original design philosophy has nothing to do with not having QoL upgrades on higher level tiers of armor. That's not a deviation ... every teir of armor is better in some way than the previous one. > > > > > > This is totally false, and not knowing this, shows why you don't understand why the current set up is a deviation. > > > > > > Originally Legendary was Identical to Exotic. > > > > > > When Ascended was Introduced, Legendary was made Identical to Ascended. > > > > > > So no, every tier was not always better. It is only recently that they opted to make Legendary something better then all other tiers, which makes it a deviation from what things were originally. > > > > > > Just giving you this for your information. > > > > That's a good story but the fact remains that it was changed BECAUSE of the reason I stated. The expectation is that higher tiers of gear offer some kind of advantage. The fact that we had these changes is an indication that Anet realized it wasn't how they wanted it to work after all. You can state original design intent all you like, but again, Anet never related original design to any statement about gear levels and the advantages they give players in the first place; you're just making that up because it sounds really compelling to a company that relies on it to sell the game. The fact they fixed it should tell you what was ACTUALLY intended, not how you want to imagine it should have been. > > All i see is people who claim they cant have leggy armor, who blame devs for not being fair cause they get excluded from content, but in reality just want shinies (exclusive skins) with minimum effort. And OW was is and will be just that: minimum effort. You can do all aurora content with groups and mesmers. Seriously. I am in favor of OW Leggy armor, as Long as it has an already existing skin. Otherwise, it is grosse unfair to pvpers, wvwers and raiders. I don't object to other paths but NOT for the reasons people are relying upon here. Legendary armor is not in opposition to the 'original design intent', it's not unfair to any player, since all three paths to get it are accessible by anyone and the game doesn't 'exclude' players from content they CHOOSE to not participate in. All of these are dishonest reasons that all the pro arguments so far have boiled down to. Until there is a better reason than "I don't want to do the content required to get what I want", then there really isn't one to be considered, because not wanting to do something isn't a reason for Anet to add more things to do to get that something. I would also bet my last dollar that if Anet did implement an OW path, it would be the MOST costly and time consuming way to get Leg gear; certainly not a minimum effort thing. Like so much so that people complaining would actually consider the current three paths to get leg gear. As you said ... to ensure it's balanced against the other methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > > > > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. > > > > > > You can literally do whatever in those game modes and still get progression, that's been the whole point the last few pages and now you're telling you need to be involved in the game mode? Funny indeed. I mean I can't disagree that sPvP and WvW don't really have all that much to involve in IE. capturing objectives or playing matches. But you don't really have to involve yourself all too seriously. > > > > IIRC, in sPvP you need to play tournament mode to make progress towards legendary armor, so you can't just do whatever. And while you have options on how you contribute to the group, you still have got to contribute. > > > > Same with WvW, you have choices on how you go about contributing for your server/world, but you still have put in the time and effort and contribute to the game mode. Either by Solo flipping, Working with with the Zerg, Commanding, or just assisting when called, but in every case, you have to contribute to the overall game mode. > > > > With raids, you can hide away in a little clique of 9 other people, and never be a part of the larger game around you. > > > > While I don't know much about sPvP, but, That is simply not possible in WvW, no matter what, you will be a part of the larger picture when you go into WvW, and just by going in you open yourself up to be affected by other players, something Raid players never have to do. They literally can ignore everyone outside their squad of 10 people. You never have that convince in WvW, and there are more then enough players on the other teams that are more then happy to remind you of that little aspect of that game mode. > > > > See, WvW is not anything like PvE Raids, where the fights are on your terms, you may think flipping a camp is easy and like PvE, but it becomes a whole different game when the other team is not keen on losing that camp. > > > > So everything.. and I mean.. everything, just walking about, in WvW opens you up to a elevated risk. > > > > > > > > Not to mention that technically (also some of the complaints) for raids is that it's not accessible because you need to prepare to have fun (mostly , you know outside of raids) as you need to get to level 80, get the right gear, gain some vital masteries (gliding, mushrooms, possibly leyline gliding maybe?) etc. So it's not like you can hide in raids and never come out at all. But hey whatever you feel is right I suppose. > > > > > > > That's more an issue with Anet making a bad addition to the game that goes against their design philosophy, but, someone already said they can go from level 0 to Legendary Armor Ready in 6 days. So, it's not a big deal. > > > > > I kind of expected you'd have made the more popular point that within those modes you "can play whichever way you want to and still progress". That would've made more sense to me. Ofcourse, whether that is the way legendary gear should be obtained is the point I'm trying to make. And expansion with a legendary armor route to it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Whether that really needs to be what some people here say it needs to be, meh I don't think those details matter too much. Some people will find it ugly, others will find it amazing, others say it will cost too much time etc. Opinions will be formed, players will rejoice and complain at the same time, using similar argumentation. There's always someone kicking up a storm. > > > > > > > Quite frankly, I feel that WvW should still be a part of Map Completion, and that a Legendary should require someone to master every part of the game, sPvP, WvW, Map Completion, Jump Puzzles, Dungeons, Fractals, World Bosses, and complete a vast array of achievements to have such gear, like the Journey.. just.. MORE. > > > > But.. Meh.. if Anet wants to make so that people can hide away and just do fractals, or just do raids.. believe that is somehow "Legendary" worthy, that is on them, but if they are going to make it that campy, they may as well open it up to other mode well.. at the very least a PoF and Core Path for the Armors, like they do with the weapons, and equally so, a HoT and PoF path for the Back Legendary. > > > > But that's not at all exactly the opposite of what I said at all. If I understand correctly, you just like to see legendary armor, just like legendary weapons to some extend to be reflective of tasks in the entire game mode. And I had to look it up, but parts of legendary armor and even some parts of the collections for legendary armor are from outside of the raids. So you can't hide away in raids at all. You will need some HoT map currencies and rewards at least. The same goes for the back piece. You need to do some jumping puzzles, mini dungeons to get some parts for the legendary back item. While I can see that requiring a large part of the journey to legendary gear consisting of raids or fractals is unappealing to you, I don't see anyone really just hiding away in one part of PvE. And even if so, why care if other people hide away in those modes? > Because hiding away in say Raids or Fractals, is not **Legendary**. Here is how I see it, if I all I needed to do, was say.. just do a single raid, or something, to get some mote or whatever, just to prove I did it, that would be acceptable to me. Making Raids a part of the Journey. But as it stands, Raids are just farm content for the Armor, and in a game as broad as GW2, there is no way to look at that other then being lame. Just like there not being a HoT and PoF path for a Legendary Back item.. is sub-par development for the game. Just like there not being a Core or PoF means for the Armor is also just poor development. > As for WvW and sPvP, like I said, they don't really are that deepgoing with their content, all you really can do is play the matches and do the match objectives. So it's not really that weird that those can easily encompass the whole game mode, because the whole game mode for WvW and SPvP revolves around a very select few tasks. That's also why PvE is more liked. There's way more options for diverse challenges and different systems. The strength of PvE is telling a (sort of) story alongside this journey. And while they may have slapped legendary gear on WvW and sPvP, that definitely doesn't feel appropriate for PvE. No.. PvE is more liked, because often the encounters are on your terms, in PvP modes, the encounters are often very brutal, and taking an objective is not as simple as just standing on a point. sPvP and WvW are not like PvE where you just capture an objective from some NPC's, when you feel like it. The other teams make doing those tasks very hard and often requiring a lot of reactionary skill, which is far more demanding then memorizing a scripted encounter, and only having to deal with a fight when you are ready for it. > > Also, while legendary weapons may have gone that way due to developer constraints (rather than favourable design) that also shouldn't become the standard for any possible open world legendary armor. Just to "make it fair". Arenanet needs to make more amazing content to do. Not make new routes through more of the same content so that people feel fairly treated. > Lets get something clear, Anet needs to take care of their players, and provide them what they want, or they will lose them. If you think reward-less mindless grind content that has no long term goals affixed to them is what they need to make to retain players, we shall just simply disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Lets get something clear, Anet needs to take care of their players, and provide them what they want, or they will lose them. > Yes, and you don't seem to get that. Anet taking care of players means considering a wide variety of things and making hard choices that have the most positive impact to the game. There is not resources to do EVERY thing that people want. Furthermore, you haven't accepted the idea that ... maybe this is opposite to what they want to do in the game. Will players leave? Sure, but players leave all the time and it makes no sense to offer EVERYTHING to them to make them stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Lets get something clear, Anet needs to take care of their players, and provide them what they want, or they will lose them. > > > Yes, and you don't seem to get that. Anet taking care of players means considering a wide variety of things and making hard choices that have the most positive impact to the game. There is not resources to do EVERY thing that people want. Furthermore, you haven't accepted the idea that ... maybe this is opposite to what they want to do in the game. Will players leave? Sure, but players leave all the time and it makes no sense to offer EVERYTHING to them to make them stay. > By that logic.. they should have just let the people who wanted Raids leave. Someone is going to leave anyway, why not the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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