Obtena.7952 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > Lets get something clear, Anet needs to take care of their players, and provide them what they want, or they will lose them. > > > > > Yes, and you don't seem to get that. Anet taking care of players means considering a wide variety of things and making hard choices that have the most positive impact to the game. There is not resources to do EVERY thing that people want. Furthermore, you haven't accepted the idea that ... maybe this is opposite to what they want to do in the game. Will players leave? Sure, but players leave all the time and it makes no sense to offer EVERYTHING to them to make them stay. > > > > By that logic.. they should have just let the people who wanted Raids leave. Someone is going to leave anyway, why not the minority. Um, no ... by that logic, it tells you that Anet thinks introducing raids has a positive impact to the game ... and the fact they continue to add more all the time ... they are probably on to something. I know that burns you up because of 'original design intent' and 'exclusion' but maybe you just need to take a step back here and have a more critical look. Again, there quite a good factory of assumptions going on with you ... when the evidence of how this actually runs as a business is right in front of us. As I've already said, if more than the current paths to leg armor was some massively positive impact to the game, we would have it. Clearly, it's no where near as important as ... a new expansion ... another raid ... another PVP season ... another installment of LS ... some new releases in GS ... the crap stuck on the bottom of their shoes ... I'm going out on a limb here and say it's not NEARLY as important to the game as you seem to think it is. You're just giving it too much credit for the impact it would have to make it seem like you're on to something big that Anet is ignoring. I'm pretty sure that Anet knows what the uptake of Leg Armor actually is ... and if they wanted more people to have it, would do something about it. It must be hard to think you know better than Anet does about their game with all the access to the data they have and their track record to back that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Their original design philosophy has nothing to do with not having QoL upgrades on higher level tiers of armor. That's not a deviation ... every teir of armor is better in some way than the previous one. > > > > > > > > This is totally false, and not knowing this, shows why you don't understand why the current set up is a deviation. > > > > > > > > Originally Legendary was Identical to Exotic. > > > > > > > > When Ascended was Introduced, Legendary was made Identical to Ascended. > > > > > > > > So no, every tier was not always better. It is only recently that they opted to make Legendary something better then all other tiers, which makes it a deviation from what things were originally. > > > > > > > > Just giving you this for your information. > > > > > > That's a good story but the fact remains that it was changed BECAUSE of the reason I stated. The expectation is that higher tiers of gear offer some kind of advantage. The fact that we had these changes is an indication that Anet realized it wasn't how they wanted it to work after all. You can state original design intent all you like, but again, Anet never related original design to any statement about gear levels and the advantages they give players in the first place; you're just making that up because it sounds really compelling to a company that relies on it to sell the game. The fact they fixed it should tell you what was ACTUALLY intended, not how you want to imagine it should have been. > > > > All i see is people who claim they cant have leggy armor, who blame devs for not being fair cause they get excluded from content, but in reality just want shinies (exclusive skins) with minimum effort. And OW was is and will be just that: minimum effort. You can do all aurora content with groups and mesmers. Seriously. I am in favor of OW Leggy armor, as Long as it has an already existing skin. Otherwise, it is grosse unfair to pvpers, wvwers and raiders. > > I don't object to other paths but NOT for the reasons people are relying upon here. Legendary armor is not in opposition to the 'original design intent', it's not unfair to any player, since all three paths to get it are accessible by anyone and the game doesn't 'exclude' players from content they CHOOSE to not participate in. All of these are dishonest reasons that all the pro arguments so far have boiled down to. > > Until there is a better reason than "I don't want to do the content required to get what I want", then there really isn't one to be considered, because not wanting to do something isn't a reason for Anet to add more things to do to get that something. I would also bet my last dollar that if Anet did implement an OW path, it would be the MOST costly and time consuming way to get Leg gear; certainly not a minimum effort thing. Like so much so that people complaining would actually consider the current three paths to get leg gear. As you said ... to ensure it's balanced against the other methods. Time heavy doesnt necessarily mean efort heavy. I will need to log in for an insane amount of days to max out the 10 daily cap. In the end it wouldnt require me any actual effort really. Nowhere near te effort a raid does even if you get the armor in a fraction of the time you need to get the ap. Also, ow will never require you the same effort as the raids because for that you actually need to improve on something if you dont meet said requirements. In ow nothing will require such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > Lets get something clear, Anet needs to take care of their players, and provide them what they want, or they will lose them. > > > > > > > Yes, and you don't seem to get that. Anet taking care of players means considering a wide variety of things and making hard choices that have the most positive impact to the game. There is not resources to do EVERY thing that people want. Furthermore, you haven't accepted the idea that ... maybe this is opposite to what they want to do in the game. Will players leave? Sure, but players leave all the time and it makes no sense to offer EVERYTHING to them to make them stay. > > > > > > > By that logic.. they should have just let the people who wanted Raids leave. Someone is going to leave anyway, why not the minority. > > Um, no ... by that logic, it tells you that Anet thinks introducing raids has a positive impact to the game ... and the fact they continue to add more all the time ... they are probably on to something. I know that burns you up because of 'original design intent' and 'exclusion' but maybe you just need to take a step back here and have a more critical look. You think this is some personal thing for me?.. How cute. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Um, no ... by that logic, it tells you that Anet thinks introducing raids has a positive impact to the game ... and the fact they continue to add more all the time ... they are probably on to something. Well their earnings report tells me they are on something.. like the _Unemployment Line_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. > > 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest You also said "for the first time in forever".. and 6 months is hardly forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > No, that's not what you said, read your own post again. Also, 4 weeks for a piece of legendary armor is not much time at all. People play this game for years, and some players never leave WvW. If you play this game mode, you will be able to get legendary armor is all what I'm saying. There is no way to avoid accumulating enough claim tickets, you only need to get the cash to pay for the mats. On the other hand, people who play open world PvE for 5 years will not have made a single step towards getting legendary armor, they are forced to do stupid raiding. > > > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > Humm funny , I took it as the exact opposite, in WvW and sPvP you have to play the game as whole game, and be involved in the mode, where in PvE you hide away and just grind raids without needing to experience the rest of the game. > > Ima kill dolyaks and get the armor. Oo how legendary i feel. Good luck.. Tell me how many times you get spiked, as they LOVE those bags.. I mean.. PvE farmers in WvW a whole lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Let's say, just for arguments sake, that Anet implements a pve way to get legendary gear, besides raiding. Let's say it would take at least 35 weeks (an example, nothing more), and it would require big grinding from LS3 maps, PoF maps, events, you name it. Also, a bit more costly. No unique skin, just an already existing skin. Would you agree with it? It certainly does not devalue the effort raiders put into their armor, as it is unique and easily recognisable (it is fashion wars, after all). > > > > I think in a game that is 75% about appearances, not at the very least providing a unique skin, would be moronic, the fact that they haven't even bothered to give WvW or sPvP at least some kind of unique skin for legendary, shows how apathetic and neglected those game modes are to Anet. > > All 15 or so players that play wvw, we know the mode is neglected, we know it is underrewarded. It has been. People left wvw because of balance issues, because of this neglect anet would take do anything about. But that is a different story. What is becoming increasingly obvious, is that those who want an OW leggy armor also want a new , unique skin. Wvw didnt get one. Pvp didnt get one. Why would the easiest, most rewarding mode in this game (open world stuff) get its own unique skin, it is a mystery to me. I agree that, in anet's philosophy, there should be a pve way to make leggy armor,besides raids. But, you want them sweet, unique, animated skins? You do the other mode, if you truly want them. Hit that 2k wvw rank, do them raids. But open world? If OW get a unique skin, people from all other mode will feel the injustice. I gotta be honest with you, Raiders can just deal, I cry a single tear for their hurt feeling. But jokes aside, I really have no idea how WvW players keep at it with how much Anet has kicked them down and made them off to be third class citizens in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > > > > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. > > > > 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest > > You also said "for the first time in forever".. and 6 months is hardly forever. Quote te whole thing it might help you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. I agree with your first statement, but draw a different conclusion. It's as much "grindy" as spending time in SW to farm gold, or do the Istan meta over and over again, or do champ trains. There is a part of the playerbase who enjoys that kind of stuff, and it's not a small part. Anet actually created these farms to give these players something to do that makes them feel they are getting somewhere. You basically have to find a way to make gold if you want to get legendary gear, it won't come from simply playing the game. I made almost no income while playing WvW in the last 4 weeks. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > But.. Meh.. if Anet wants to make so that people can hide away and just do fractals, or just do raids.. believe that is somehow "Legendary" worthy, that is on them, but if they are going to make it that campy, they may as well open it up to other mode well.. at the very least a PoF and Core Path for the Armors, like they do with the weapons, and equally so, a HoT and PoF path for the Back Legendary. Exactly! I'm not happy about the way they added legendary armor (even without special skins) to WvW, since there is nothing legendary about getting it. But since they decided to do it anyway, I see no good reason to not add it to PvE as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > > > > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > > > > > > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. > > > > > > 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest > > > > You also said "for the first time in forever".. and 6 months is hardly forever. > > Quote te whole thing it might help you understand. Sure thing, By all means.. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. **Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever** and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request. > If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it. > But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. > > I agree with your first statement, but draw a different conclusion. It's as much "grindy" as spending time in SW to farm gold, or do the Istan meta over and over again, or do champ trains. _There is a part of the playerbase who enjoys that kind of stuff, and it's not a small part_. **Anet actually created these farms to give these players something to do that makes them feel they are getting somewhere**. You basically have to find a way to make gold if you want to get legendary gear, it won't come from simply playing the game. I made almost no income while playing WvW in the last 4 weeks. And then Anet turned around, and made it so that the people that enjoyed these grinds, and such, are now getting nowhere. It's no surprise after doing that, their income is going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 d e l e t e d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > You'll need zero skills, but a LOT of time. It's not casual play, that's all I'm saying. > Casual/hardcore playstyle does not need to have anything to do with time invested. We had that discussion before. > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > The issue is that Leg armor from PvP and WvW does not have any unique animations (WvW Sublime Mistforged Chestpiece has a back animation _but this is available at ascended tier_). Payers who obtained /are obtaining those versions would be up in arms if a PvE "go hit some crabs on the beach and then collect some shiny pebbles" alternative had more to offer. > Two wrongs do not make a right. As you say, the issue is that _Leg armor from PvP and WvW does not have any unique skin_. That issue should obviously be fixed as well. > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > As mentioned many times, one of the main conditions which were negotiated to allow Leg armor to be acquirable outside of raids, was the fact that it would **not** have the same "prestigious" levels of animation. > Which shows the contempt Anet devs have to both PvP modes. Which is hardly a good thing. The fact that it didn't even merit an unique non-animated skin is even worse. > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > If for some bizarre reason PvEers outside of raids were able to acquire Leg armor with additional animations, PvP and WvW sets would almost certainly require the same treatment. > Agreed. > > And i agree that the chances of us seeing another animated armor are close to nil, seeing how the raid one was almost too much of an effort for Anet. It should not stop Anet however from giving all the legendary armor sets (including the hypothetical PvE non-raid one,) unique skins on the level above the normal run-of-the-mill skins. So, definitely with some special effects of the Legendary quality. They could be based on already existing non-legendary skins (which would be a relatively cheap method of achieving desired result), but should be easily identifable . > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Grind is grind. But. Let's see. The aurora collection. It was doable with help from mesmers (you could just skip all hard parts), you could do all achievements easily with a group of people. If OW pve leggy armor ever gets implemented, a lot of stuff will be easily doable with friends, mesmers with portals, etc. Things you cannot do in wvw or pvp, for instance. Should this thing be rewarded with a new, shiny, animated skin? In my opinion, it shouldnt. > Actually, i do have one idea of core armor that would be at the same time open to all, but also extremely restrictive (_more_ than envoy one), and require massive grind and hard work that couldn't be easily circumvented by help of others. That would be to make precursors crafted using hellfire/radiant skins. The armor itself would also be real cheap to design on the artist side (just make it radiant/hellfire with color channels, and maybe some additional aura and effects on entering combat). > > Problem is, that might be a little _too_ restrictive (after all, that would be much harder to get than a raid set). So maybe a skinned legendary as above, and skinless one that costs more but is not so locked. Or my other idea - "expansion" sets that are built up from one specific expansion armor set (in HoT that would be leystone, in PoF that would be likely funerary, or maybe one of the three crafted ones) with only slightly changed look (to make it more easily done by the art devs), and added some glow/effects to make it visibly legendary. > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > People want an OW way for leggy armor? Give it to them, make it need more time to get completed than its other counterparts (wvw - pvp-raid) and give it an already existing skin. But my 2 cents in this story are that people, in fact, ask for unique prestigious skins rather than the functionality of the armor itself. > They ask for both, because (among many other things) it is a sign how Anet sees and treats those specific modes (case in point: WvW and SPvP sets). Nobody likes to be a second class citizen. > > Let's see, now. We should be equal, yes, but OW pvers are a bit more equal. You see, the vast majority of released content is for OW pvers. Living stories, achievements with unique skinned stuff with every new release, balance patches, New content is dedicated to OW pve mostly. The majority of players are pve, sure, no doubt. But people leave spvp and wvw at a fast rate, because of the neglect from anet for years. And you tell me that, despite all of the above, all the new pve stuff that keeps coming out, pvers somehow feel... Like seconds class citizens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I said quote the whole thing > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > > > > > > > > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. > > > > > > > > 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest > > > > > > You also said "for the first time in forever".. and 6 months is hardly forever. > > > > Quote te whole thing it might help you understand. > > Sure thing, By all means.. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. **Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever** and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request. > If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it. > But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable. To which you said: > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Sure. > > Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the _new Fractals_ which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders. > > Kudos. To which my responce was: > @"zealex.9410" said: > If the latest fractal is suposedly raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the closest thing to dungeons we got since forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. > > I agree with your first statement, but draw a different conclusion. It's as much "grindy" as spending time in SW to farm gold, or do the Istan meta over and over again, or do champ trains. There is a part of the playerbase who enjoys that kind of stuff, and it's not a small part. Anet actually created these farms to give these players something to do that makes them feel they are getting somewhere. You basically have to find a way to make gold if you want to get legendary gear, it won't come from simply playing the game. I made almost no income while playing WvW in the last 4 weeks. > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > But.. Meh.. if Anet wants to make so that people can hide away and just do fractals, or just do raids.. believe that is somehow "Legendary" worthy, that is on them, but if they are going to make it that campy, they may as well open it up to other mode well.. at the very least a PoF and Core Path for the Armors, like they do with the weapons, and equally so, a HoT and PoF path for the Back Legendary. > > Exactly! I'm not happy about the way they added legendary armor (even without special skins) to WvW, since there is nothing legendary about getting it. But since they decided to do it anyway, I see no good reason to not add it to PvE as well. Yeah, pve farming of chests can be compared to wvw or pvp! It cant. People cry for GoB to not be included solely in wvw because they hate the mode and their constant dying from wvwers. And you tell me that... Theres nothing "legendary" about wvw way of getting the armor, just because YOU afk pipfarmed? Wvwers are people who try their best, every MU, to keep siege refreshed, to havoc in order to win that Last skirmish, to beat zerg vs zerg, to ninjacap that T2 tower before oflt gets to T3... But I am SURE being ported by mesmers through jps and by pressing 1-1-1-1 is legendaryish in feeling, yeah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. > > > > I agree with your first statement, but draw a different conclusion. It's as much "grindy" as spending time in SW to farm gold, or do the Istan meta over and over again, or do champ trains. _There is a part of the playerbase who enjoys that kind of stuff, and it's not a small part_. **Anet actually created these farms to give these players something to do that makes them feel they are getting somewhere**. You basically have to find a way to make gold if you want to get legendary gear, it won't come from simply playing the game. I made almost no income while playing WvW in the last 4 weeks. > > And then Anet turned around, and made it so that the people that enjoyed these grinds, and such, are now getting nowhere. > > It's no surprise after doing that, their income is going down. > HoT offered the most repeatable metas that you can grind even upto now, yet their income went down anyway. But hey let's attribute it to the other thing. Yes for new legendary weapons, instead of armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Let's see, now. We should be equal, yes, but OW pvers are a bit more equal. You see, the vast majority of released content is for OW pvers. Living stories, achievements with unique skinned stuff with every new release, balance patches, New content is dedicated to OW pve mostly. The majority of players are pve, sure, no doubt. But people leave spvp and wvw at a fast rate, because of the neglect from anet for years. And you tell me that, despite all of the above, all the new pve stuff that keeps coming out, pvers somehow feel... Like seconds class citizens? Yes. You can consider yourself a third-class citizen, if that makes you happy (it wouldn't make me happy, but that's me). Of course, at least you _got_ the legendary armor. And you do have devs actually talking with you. Seriously, yes, i do know that WvW and SPvP are neglected as a result of Anet making a ton of bad decisions (and then not bothering to put much effort into those modes). You aren't however asking about a change to that. Your behaviour is more towards the "we have it bad, so let's make sure everyone else is miserable too" stance. That's a highly destructive approach to take and one that is certain to not accomplish anything good. Anyway, you being (rightfully) bitter about the state of your gamemode does not change the fact that currently there's only one group of first class citizens in this game, and that's raiders. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Also, ow will never require you the same effort as the raids because for that you actually need to improve on something if you dont meet said requirements. In ow nothing will require such thing. I actually gave an example of how it could be done while requiring even _more_ effort than raids. But i guess it doesn't fit your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Let's see, now. We should be equal, yes, but OW pvers are a bit more equal. You see, the vast majority of released content is for OW pvers. Living stories, achievements with unique skinned stuff with every new release, balance patches, New content is dedicated to OW pve mostly. The majority of players are pve, sure, no doubt. But people leave spvp and wvw at a fast rate, because of the neglect from anet for years. And you tell me that, despite all of the above, all the new pve stuff that keeps coming out, pvers somehow feel... Like seconds class citizens? > Yes. You can consider yourself a third-class citizen, if that makes you happy (it wouldn't make me happy, but that's me). Of course, at least you _got_ the legendary armor. And you do have devs actually talking with you. > > Seriously, yes, i do know that WvW and SPvP are neglected as a result of Anet making a ton of bad decisions (and then not bothering to put much effort into those modes). You aren't however asking about a change to that. Your behaviour is more towards the "we have it bad, so let's make sure everyone else is miserable too" stance. That's a highly destructive approach to take and one that is certain to not accomplish anything good. > > Anyway, you being (rightfully) bitter about the state of your gamemode does not change the fact that currently there's only one group of first class citizens in this game, and that's raiders. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Also, ow will never require you the same effort as the raids because for that you actually need to improve on something if you dont meet said requirements. In ow nothing will require such thing. > I actually gave an example of how it could be done while requiring even _more_ effort than raids. But i guess it doesn't fit your narrative. > > I AM a 3rd class gw2 citizen, feeling like one/being happy for being one, is irrelevant. That, as you stated (and I consider you a reasonable, well-spoken individual from your comments), comes from year-long neglect., which includes the focusing of the OW PvE aspect. ANET resources are not limitess. That aside, my opinion is that PvE should get its (harder to obtain, time-wise and resource-wise) legendary armor. It could be a reskin of the average ascended armor skin. Is it unfair? No. Other gamemodes (sPvP, WvW) have that, why should resources be spent on a OW PvE set when other modes are really underrewarded? OW has a plethora of unique skins, has had and will continue to get new stuff because it affects a lot of people. But, a unique, animated skin? I disagree. Spend resources on actually balancing sPvP(mesmer is broken, more than ever, everywhere), on removing hackers, on removing world imbalance, on actually DOING QoL stuff. ACTUAL QoL stuff, that affect peoples' gaming experience for the better, instead of new OW shinies. Am I bitter? Maybe. But I certainly do not ask for OW pve to become a neglected mode in favor of the other modes. I simply ask for what is sensible. Also, devs dont communicate with WvW forums more than other subforums. They announced some world restructure stuff months ago (no news since), asked about QoL stuff and we may get... WXP enrichment and reward track enrichment. Hooray! Problems solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > I said quote the whole thing > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What I find funny about your 'original intent' argument is that if you were actually concerned Anet sticking to it, you shouldn't really be bothered by legendary gear in the first place ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they had stuck to their original intent.. I wouldn't be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... if you knew what it was in the first place instead of guessing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, given that you did not even know who MO was, or what the Design Manifesto even said.. I don't think you are in any place to be talking about what is means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean u didnt know which was the newest fractal :/ He/she doesnt need to knoe what the manifesto is or said because its old forgotten info that the devs realised was idiotic to go by and ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > You didn't say newest.. you said New.. and that was a new fractal. > > > > > > > > > > 6+ months old isnt new and i said newest > > > > > > > > You also said "for the first time in forever".. and 6 months is hardly forever. > > > > > > Quote te whole thing it might help you understand. > > > > Sure thing, By all means.. > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. **Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever** and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request. > > > If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it. > > > But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable. > > To which you said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Sure. > > > > Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the _new Fractals_ which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders. > > > > Kudos. > > > To which my responce was: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > If the latest fractal is suposedly raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the closest thing to dungeons we got since forever. Not my fault you can't stay consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > > What I mostly get from that is that the way you obtain legendary gear in WvW and PvP is lackluster and not really according to what legendary gear should or used to entail. > > > > > > > > If anything legendary gear in those game modes are just a grindy endgame goal whereas in PvE you actually have to earn it. > > > > > > > > What I mean by that is, if they decide for an open world one, a grindy legendary armor akin to what WvW and sPvP currently are, as goal seems like a really bad idea. > > > > > > I agree with your first statement, but draw a different conclusion. It's as much "grindy" as spending time in SW to farm gold, or do the Istan meta over and over again, or do champ trains. _There is a part of the playerbase who enjoys that kind of stuff, and it's not a small part_. **Anet actually created these farms to give these players something to do that makes them feel they are getting somewhere**. You basically have to find a way to make gold if you want to get legendary gear, it won't come from simply playing the game. I made almost no income while playing WvW in the last 4 weeks. > > > > And then Anet turned around, and made it so that the people that enjoyed these grinds, and such, are now getting nowhere. > > > > It's no surprise after doing that, their income is going down. > > > > HoT offered the most repeatable metas that you can grind even upto now, yet their income went down anyway. But hey let's attribute it to the other thing. Yes for new legendary weapons, instead of armor. Oh yah, Absolutely, HoT was horribly received due to the map designs and layouts. I mean couple frustrating OW maps with the only other new content being raids, it was no surprise their was a direct concise decline following it's launch. So I have to agree with you in that one, HoT as a general whole was an overall bad expansion. Humm, So, what would be easier, re-designing HoT OW maps and Raids to be more accessible, or tossing the same trinkets into the new expansion to placate the customers (And you know, boost sales of the new expansion)? I am sure that's a hard choice for some. Hence this discussion, and.. Well, Anet's continual decline in earnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Let's see, now. We should be equal, yes, but OW pvers are a bit more equal. You see, the vast majority of released content is for OW pvers. Living stories, achievements with unique skinned stuff with every new release, balance patches, New content is dedicated to OW pve mostly. The majority of players are pve, sure, no doubt. But people leave spvp and wvw at a fast rate, because of the neglect from anet for years. And you tell me that, despite all of the above, all the new pve stuff that keeps coming out, pvers somehow feel... Like seconds class citizens? > > Yes. You can consider yourself a third-class citizen, if that makes you happy (it wouldn't make me happy, but that's me). Of course, at least you _got_ the legendary armor. And you do have devs actually talking with you. > > > > Seriously, yes, i do know that WvW and SPvP are neglected as a result of Anet making a ton of bad decisions (and then not bothering to put much effort into those modes). You aren't however asking about a change to that. Your behaviour is more towards the "we have it bad, so let's make sure everyone else is miserable too" stance. That's a highly destructive approach to take and one that is certain to not accomplish anything good. > > > > Anyway, you being (rightfully) bitter about the state of your gamemode does not change the fact that currently there's only one group of first class citizens in this game, and that's raiders. > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > Also, ow will never require you the same effort as the raids because for that you actually need to improve on something if you dont meet said requirements. In ow nothing will require such thing. > > I actually gave an example of how it could be done while requiring even _more_ effort than raids. But i guess it doesn't fit your narrative. > > > > > > I AM a 3rd class gw2 citizen, feeling like one/being happy for being one, is irrelevant. That, as you stated (and I consider you a reasonable, well-spoken individual from your comments), comes from year-long neglect., which includes the focusing of the OW PvE aspect. ANET resources are not limitess. That aside, my opinion is that PvE should get its (harder to obtain, time-wise and resource-wise) legendary armor. It could be a reskin of the average ascended armor skin. Is it unfair? No. Other gamemodes (sPvP, WvW) have that, why should resources be spent on a OW PvE set when other modes are really underrewarded? > Also, devs dont communicate with WvW forums more than other subforums. They announced some world restructure stuff months ago (no news since), asked about QoL stuff and we may get... WXP enrichment and reward track enrichment. Hooray! Problems solved! There is no question that WvW players have been given the dirty end of the stick as far as the game goes, I mean, really, they put in legendary armor, and in a game that is heavy on appearance, they didn't even toss you an unique skin to go with it (Maybe something that matched the back item, which would have been kinda cool) And their sudden _Communication_ Came about as a response to increased info about [CF,](https://crowfall.com/en/ "CF,") and [CU](http://camelotunchained.com/v3/ "CU") going into Alpha, and getting ready for Beta launch soon. Check them out. Truth is, while WvW is a massively negelcted game mode with years of decay attached to it, somehow, Anet fears their players will move on when these other more WvW focused games come out. So suddenly has resources to spare to give you all a little love.. funny how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 And this is why making the precursors purchasable was the CORRECT thing to do. Players should be able to do the content they like, get rewards, convert those rewards to gold, and BUY the precursor for the legendary they want to make (weapon, armor, or trinket). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mtpelion.4562" said: > And this is why making the precursors purchasable was the CORRECT thing to do. Players should be able to do the content they like, get rewards, convert those rewards to gold, and BUY the precursor for the legendary they want to make (weapon, armor, or trinket). G1 was a decent idea, but players fussed that being able to buy a legendary cheapened it's value.. and then turned around sold raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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