What if Scourge only had Boon Removal instead of Boon Corrupt

[shadowpass.4236]

Condi spam OP

 

Make Scourge focused around removing boons and applying barrier rather than corrupting every single boon and applying every single condition in an AoE.

 

Since its supposed to be a support class, it should compete against Firebrand, (old Tempest), and (old Druid) for a slot. Instead, it just overpowers the (previously considered strong and 100% MANDATORY) condi Reaper spec. It is basically ranged Reaper 2.0 with more damage and tankiness.

 

Thoughts?

[Cynz.9437]

That could do this or also apply debuffs to scourge every time they convert boons. Same treatment like UC got ;)

[Sigmoid.7082]

>Since its supposed to be a support class

 

The only problem with this way of thinking is how the class is built and changes anet have made to reaper. It's clearly meant to be the go to spec for condition users due to the changes to condi on reaper and the entire middle traitline.

 

Besides core necro still has a lot of corrupts,that really shouldn't change. And even if all the punishment skills and the master tier trait were changed to just remove boons people would still complain.

[Arcaedus.7290]

Core necro already had more boon corrupt than everything else (counting boon strips on other classes) in the game combined. Necro did NOT need more corrupt. Having one or two of the Punishment skills corrupting boons was fine but yeah, far too much boon corrupt was attached to Scourge. Changing most of the scourge-specific corrupts into boon strips would be a good move.

[Chaith.8256]

Anyone can objectively see that Scourge is bad for PvP, ruins teamfight balance and deletes any strategies that don't involve attacking from range or without resistance (Scrapper, Herald, Reaper deleted).

 

With the radius that Scourge abilities affect, the optimal role being AoE pressure is just too good a synergy with that. Those kinds of radius effects are reserved for support abilities.

 

Scourge needs to be driven away from the AoE teamfight DPS role, how that should be done is by having that damage become much more narrowly focused:

- Sand Savant reworked into a competitive support trait and all Shade attacks on a 180 radius,

- Easier to dodge, by delays and telegraphs on Shade skills after they're triggered. Simular to Centaur legend's big heal from the tablet.

- Various reductions to condition output such examples as changing Scourge converts and corrupts into boon removal.

- Various increases in incentives to run healing power and increased access to turning your conditions to boons.

 

Corrupt boon, short cooldown Path of Corruption F2, Sceptre auto, Weakening Shroud, Well of Corruption, these will always be core corrupt options separate from Scourge though, I can't say ArenaNet should change these..

 

Edit: I do think changing Nefarious Favor (F2) to benefit less from Path of Corruption is smart. CD increase to 15s base, increased conditions converted by 50% to 3, increased life force cost by 50%.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Eh, corrupting really is right in line with the necro design. The amount of AoE condi and corrupt needs to be toned down, but I think the game is better with necros having something like corrupts to distinguish them.

[Chaith.8256]

> @Dahkeus.8243 said:

> Eh, corrupting really is right in line with the necro design. The amount of AoE condi and corrupt needs to be toned down, but I think the game is better with necros having something like corrupts to distinguish them.

 

Yeah but Scourge specific ones like punishment skills and the Scourge trait to corrupt on dropping Shades, why are _they_ the exact same flavor as core Necro utils and traits? Actually using the boon steal bottom GM would be very flavorful.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @Dahkeus.8243 said:

> Eh, corrupting really is right in line with the necro design. The amount of AoE condi and corrupt needs to be toned down, but I think the game is better with necros having something like corrupts to distinguish them.

 

Corrupts are fine, AoE corrupting every boon consistently over the course of a fight while applying multiple stacks of every single condition to the entire enemy team is oppressive to say the least.

 

Necros had single target corrupts up until the release of Scourge. I believe the main issue lies in Sand Savant, due to the fact that slotting it makes shades cover an entire point. Thus, the damage becomes unavoidable in a team fight.

 

The only thing balancing a Scourge's condi pressure is Firebrand's absurd tankiness and amount of cleanses. Both need to be tuned way down imo.

 

Basically, if you want to tell if something is overpowered or not, ask yourself if the build would be balanced in pre-HoT gw2. If it seems like it would have been wildly out of place and gamebreaking back then, chances are, it is now.

[Zintrothen.1056]

It doesn't solve the powercreep issue to change the type of boon removal. What needs to be done is reducing boon spam and then also the amount of boon removal.

[SlimChance.6593]

From a design perspective, I believe Mesmer is suppose to be the boon removal/swap class. (Other classes have some boon removal). While Necro is the boon corrupt class.

 

But it’s clear that Scourge has way more access to boon corrupt in comparison to Mesmer (and other classes) in boon removal/swap.

 

Just another example of the power creep that the elites have brought to the game.

[xDudisx.5914]

I think it should be boon steal baseline.

[frednought.1238]

On the other side of the boonflip coin, I think it's also worth pointing out that Nefarious Favor (F2) is, in this burn-heavy meta, a very consistent source of aegis for a class that really shouldn't have access to aegis. Unless NF gets a significantly higher cooldown, it would likely be more balanced to make this a simple cleanse instead of a flip.

[Genesis.5169]

As a non necro player, i just wanted to mention i do not find your class OP, i find that your class specialization is just really strong at area denial which is huge part of sPvP and WvW. I really think all of this necro/ condition hate is misplaced.

[Alehin.3746]

what if corrupted boons applied **one single stack of a damage condition** depending of what profession/specialization you're playing instead of the "boon-condi conversion table" thingy? i think we could even give other classes some boon corrupt if this worked well

[MethaneGas.8357]

The problem basically comes from Path of Corruption (F2 corrupts 2 boons into conditions), but I don't think the trait itself should be nerfed because that would destroy core Necro and Reaper which are already kinda sad. I think it comes from Scourge's low cooldown F2 and how easy it is to just spam it for juicy AoE corrupts frequently... and this is where "all the condis in the game" comes from. Each shade does cripple, torment and burn. Then add in 2 more condis from F2 corrupts, add in vulnerability from sigil, and throw in staff 2 and 3 and you got yourself 9 condis AoE.

 

I think if they increased the cooldown of F2 to like 15 secs, and removed cripple from shade attacks, it could go a long way. So now you'd cause just 2 condis with each shade - torment and burn without the unnecessary cripple that's just a cover condi. Add in vuln from sigil and occasional F2 (with the 15 sec cooldown) and you have something that's much easier to deal with.

I also think another option is making F2 have a cast time. When you look at core Necro, Dark Path has a cast time, and when you look at Reaper, Death's Charge takes a while to hit and is extremely easy to dodge. Having a big tell on Scourge F2, maybe a sound effect and particle effect play around you/your shade, and then the corrupt happens after 1 sec could work. I think that the fear (F4) should still have no cast time though, and F5 should have no cast time.

 

Nerfing Sand Savant is also a good idea. And of course, nerfing Firebrand's :+1:

[Rodzynald.5897]

Well I always get amused and mad both at how scourge can easily get to me. I have to sweat my head off to bait shades and kite around something to force mistakes on the scourge. But as a core hammer which is 100% melee, a scourge only has to do one medium condi bomb on me to force most of my utilities to cleanse, and a second after I get another condi bomb to the face despite earlier baits.

The gap between how hard I have to try to down them and how easy it is for scourge to completely deny me in melee is truly a bit too much.

Or to be true I wouldn't mind that power level that much if there were more indication and slow cast times on scourge skills. It is weird, maybe that's my clunky framerate and wonky latency but I always anticipate that characteristic hand movement animation of scourges and most of the time I get struck with most of those skills in the same second the animation STARTS. I don't really have that much problem with evading attacks, but shouldn't it be like, the attack comes after animation and not at the beginning of it? Not to mention that a lot of it is unblockable :T

If so then I want mighty blow to deal AoE in the moment my character starts to leap into the air :D

[reikken.4961]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Condi spam OP

>

> Reaper 2.0 with more [...] tankiness.

 

what

damage scourge is way less tanky than reaper

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> Core necro already had more boon corrupt than everything else (counting boon strips on other classes) in the game combined. Necro did NOT need more corrupt. Having one or two of the Punishment skills corrupting boons was fine but yeah, far too much boon corrupt was attached to Scourge. Changing most of the scourge-specific corrupts into boon strips would be a good move.

 

I think this is a start. Though I think that boon corrupt/removal is incredibly bad concept all across. It was tolerable in HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

 

If boons inflation is a problem, then Anet should reduce the amount of boons being pumped out. The boon corrupt/removal makes many classes lose viability. Elementalist is a good example of a class that has lost almost all viability in PoF cuz of boon corrupt/removal (but not the only).

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Eh, corrupting really is right in line with the necro design. The amount of AoE condi and corrupt needs to be toned down, but I think the game is better with necros having something like corrupts to distinguish them.

 

Boon Corrupt is not a theme.

Boon Corrupt is not a gameplay style.

Boon Corrupt is a mechanic.

 

Elite specs are supposed to bring new themes and gameplay to a class. Scourge does neither.

 

[Ragion.2831]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Condi spam OP

>

> Make Scourge focused around removing boons and applying barrier rather than corrupting every single boon and applying every single condition in an AoE.

>

> Since its supposed to be a support class, it should compete against Firebrand, (old Tempest), and (old Druid) for a slot. Instead, it just overpowers the (previously considered strong and 100% MANDATORY) condi Reaper spec. It is basically ranged Reaper 2.0 with more damage and tankiness.

>

> Thoughts?

 

This thread while has good intentions is worthless because anet prioritizes thematics over common sense. The theme of necro in general is corruption and using conditions even though its not a good idea considering how far theyve taking coniditions with the new expansion

[Velimere.7685]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Since its supposed to be a support class, it should compete against Firebrand, (old Tempest), and (old Druid) for a slot. Instead, it just overpowers the (previously considered strong and 100% MANDATORY) condi Reaper spec. It is basically ranged Reaper 2.0 with more damage and tankiness.

 

I've never seen Scourge played as a support class. :p