Is ANet forgetting how kittened conditions were in open world PvE?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Whatever Anet does on Tuesday all of you are going to copy-paste builds from your favourite sites without thinking much about it, no matter what "meta" is going to be, so why all the complains? You do this with every patch anyway.

 

I never take builds from sites.

I've been a Core Necro for a long while until I wasn't happy with how it was and gave Scourge a go and completely adored it.

As Core, I was a Condition Minion Master. As Scourge, same thing.

 

I don't like playing power.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I'm all for changing conditions from instant to building up. This will keep them useful for PvE but removing the experienced woes of the current condis in PvP and WvW.

[Crossaber.8934]

There should not be a condition build that able to heavy load damage for trash foe credit, while also doing more damage over time on long fight. Especailly with all the aoe condition spam and tanky condition gear, right?

 

Pve foe should start to learn condition removal and apply resistance every 10 sec or so.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > Yeah i remember.....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And they were bad for none of the reason your wrote about.

> > > > > > > People overwriting existing conditions with their less damaging conditions was a thing, every encounter being capped at 25 was a thing. Those things aren't going away come 12/12 so you can quite reasonably expect conditions to still be viable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad", I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again.

> > > > > Not really.

> > > > >

> > > > > They'll be stronger over time. Which is what they are designed to be.

> > > > > This isn't changing and what you're proposing is going to happen is literally because of a fear of change.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > What on earth are you talking about? And what nonsense are you accusing me of? Did you even read or understand my post? Like, seriously, what, I don't even...?

> > > >

> > > > I know damage over time is stronger over time, hence being called "damage over time", I never said otherwise, in fact my post doesn't even address the state of balance of condition damage vs power or virtually anything else you are going on about.

> > > >

> > > > My post addresses that when conditions deal less damage immediately, that applying them to mobs other people are attacking in an open world PvE setting, will result in the mobs dying to those other people, before your conditions have dealt sufficient damage for you to get credit for killing the mob, resulting in you receiving no XP or loot drops from the mob and possibly not even event credit. And with ANet making conditions deal less damage immediately come Tuesday, this may become more of an issue than it has been since conditions became PvE viable.

> > >

> > > You're making a large jump by asking the quesiton

> > >

> > > Does Anet remember how bad they were, with the even larger jump assuming that come 12/12 conditions are going to be largely useless.

> > > That's not going to happen no matter how much you try and hide it.

> >

> > I... did not say anywhere that any condition was going to be useless. I don't know what's wrong with you but since nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever I'm just going to ignore you if that's okay.

>

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > I didn't say this was _why_ conditions were "bad",**I said this was a mechanical issue back _when_ they were bad, and that it is likely to be an issue again**.

>

> I'm saying you're jumping the shark here.

> The reasons why conditions were bad had nothing to do with the claim you're making and wont be the issue again.

>

 

That is not what jumping the shark means.

 

I am in a wait and see mode as well. As long as I can get max credit on a condi build as well as a power build I have no concerns of significance.

 

If my DPS characters using condi builds cease being competitive with my power built characters in terms of event credit I will be displeased.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Crossaber.8934" said:

> There should not be a condition build that able to heavy load damage for trash foe credit, while also doing more damage over time on long fight. Especailly with all the aoe condition spam and tanky condition gear, right?

>

> Pve foe should start to learn condition removal and apply resistance every 10 sec or so.

 

I think its about time you and the others who cry for condition nerfs to tell us what you really want. The utter removal and/or nerfing to the point of viability of condition damage.

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

 

Best case scenario is to stop using condition damage in arguably half of gw2?

 

You can't be serious this isn't a solution.

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

 

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> Or maybe I was just that good....

 

I have your answer its called the flamethrower and its one of the best taging weapons in the game...

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Whatever ANet has planned for Tuesday is already baked into the build; it's not going to change on Monday because one of us wrote a great post pointing out some flaw that they didn't consider.

>

> So let's wait to see what actually changes **and** give it a month or two, so we can figure how to adapt to the changes. Then, we can complain like crazy if it turns out that conditions become useless in short fights. (Clearly, there's almost no way that they'll be anything but substantial in longer fights, even if they turn out to be 5% below power.)

 

Why don't we do both? I would rather ANet begin hearing our concerns immediately. I think I have reason to be concerned.

 

Unfortunately, I had the ill luck to fall in love with Mirage. The class gimmick (ambush) is essentially worthless in PvE without a GM trait (IH) propping it up. Yet IH is barely competitive with the other damage option in the same tier! Still, the build is fun to play outside of serious content. Now you're telling me you want to make it substantially slower in open world? So go power, right? Wrong. For some reason, mesmer clones don't deal power damage on AA and our power weapons are garbage for actually dealing damage. So power underperforms even worse than condi!

 

So, yeah. I think I have a legitimate concerns here and I'd like ANet to hear about them right now, before these proposed changes go live. Not 2 months from now, when a negative result will have had more than enough time to kill my enthusiasm for this game. Hopefully this won't have such a huge impact, but this change is not happening in a vacuum and the issue is time sensitive.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> That is not what jumping the shark means.

> I am in a wait and see mode as well. As long as I can get max credit on a condi build as well as a power build I have no concerns of significance.

> If my DPS characters using condi builds cease being competitive with my power built characters in terms of event credit I will be displeased.

 

The idiom has more than one meaning. I'm not using it as the conventional TV trope, but the much more modern usages in which "a moment when something that was once great has reached a point where it will now decline in quality and popularity."

 

Thus his conclusion is indeed jumping the shark.

 

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Credit and loot are separate. A good burst of power or condi improves odds of bags. Being credited for more damage helps with loot allocation.

 

I don't know where you heard that but I can assure you that it is incorrect, once you've passed the threshold of damage necessary to "tag" a mob, you are rolling on the exact same loot tables as everyone else; and both loot and XP come only from mobs you received kill credit for, so the two are basically the same thing.

 

The only thing I can think you are getting confused with is event credit, which is often affected by damage dealt, and therefore lower damage can equal a lower participation rating and less loot. But that does not apply the same to kill credit from individual mobs.

[Crossaber.8934]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Whatever ANet has planned for Tuesday is already baked into the build; it's not going to change on Monday because one of us wrote a great post pointing out some flaw that they didn't consider.

> >

> > So let's wait to see what actually changes **and** give it a month or two, so we can figure how to adapt to the changes. Then, we can complain like crazy if it turns out that conditions become useless in short fights. (Clearly, there's almost no way that they'll be anything but substantial in longer fights, even if they turn out to be 5% below power.)

>

> Why don't we do both? I would rather ANet begin hearing our concerns immediately. I think I have reason to be concerned.

>

> Unfortunately, I had the ill luck to fall in love with Mirage. The class gimmick (ambush) is essentially worthless in PvE without a GM trait (IH) propping it up. Yet IH is barely competitive with the other damage option in the same tier! Still, the build is fun to play outside of serious content. Now you're telling me you want to make it substantially slower in open world? So go power, right? Wrong. For some reason, mesmer clones don't deal power damage on AA and our power weapons are garbage for actually dealing damage. So power underperforms even worse than condi!

>

> So, yeah. I think I have a legitimate concerns here and I'd like ANet to hear about them right now, before these proposed changes go live. Not 2 months from now, when a negative result will have had more than enough time to kill my enthusiasm for this game. Hopefully this won't have such a huge impact, but this change is not happening in a vacuum and the issue is time sensitive.

>

None want condition to be useless, it is already the utlimate dps for long fight, should it be the ultimate trash killer as well?

 

The role of condition damage was blurred after the removal of hard cap. The line has to be drawn to separate the role between power and condition once again, this is the 12/12 patch is about.

[sephiroth.4217]

Conditions are going back to Damage Over Time status rather than being more bursty than a power build, this is extremely healthy choice for the game in all modes.

 

I love condition builds n all but you know there is something wrong when you drop your condi burst in 1 second, kite and block while they bleed/burn for 8k a tick... 8k a second, a lot of power builds have to repeatedly hit the target each second and still crit for less damage, with conditions it's just apply and run away, they'll bleed out and your auto loot will pick up the rest.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

I too want condition builds removed from the game, ushering a new era of zerker darkness /s

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Crossaber.8934" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Whatever ANet has planned for Tuesday is already baked into the build; it's not going to change on Monday because one of us wrote a great post pointing out some flaw that they didn't consider.

> > >

> > > So let's wait to see what actually changes **and** give it a month or two, so we can figure how to adapt to the changes. Then, we can complain like crazy if it turns out that conditions become useless in short fights. (Clearly, there's almost no way that they'll be anything but substantial in longer fights, even if they turn out to be 5% below power.)

> >

> > Why don't we do both? I would rather ANet begin hearing our concerns immediately. I think I have reason to be concerned.

> >

> > Unfortunately, I had the ill luck to fall in love with Mirage. The class gimmick (ambush) is essentially worthless in PvE without a GM trait (IH) propping it up. Yet IH is barely competitive with the other damage option in the same tier! Still, the build is fun to play outside of serious content. Now you're telling me you want to make it substantially slower in open world? So go power, right? Wrong. For some reason, mesmer clones don't deal power damage on AA and our power weapons are garbage for actually dealing damage. So power underperforms even worse than condi!

> >

> > So, yeah. I think I have a legitimate concerns here and I'd like ANet to hear about them right now, before these proposed changes go live. Not 2 months from now, when a negative result will have had more than enough time to kill my enthusiasm for this game. Hopefully this won't have such a huge impact, but this change is not happening in a vacuum and the issue is time sensitive.

> >

> None want condition to be useless, it is already the utlimate dps for long fight, should it be the ultimate trash killer as well?

>

> The role of condition damage was blurred after the removal of hard cap. The line has to be drawn to separate the role between power and condition once again, this is the 12/12 patch is about.

 

Not sure that I agree that condi and power should have different roles. They, in my opinion, fulfill the same role, that of damage dealer, albeit in slightly different ways. Trash, as you mention, comprise the vast majority of the opposition in game. I dont think that certain weapons, or even classes, should be second, or third, rate for the majority of the game's content because they are competitive in the remainder.

[Obtena.7952]

If Anet do this correctly, Condi builds (maybe not immediately in Dec patch but hopefully soon) will give a higher DPS at a more demanding maintenance/ramp up requirement. What might be difficult is balancing this between ranged and melee builds ... I think it's obvious that range builds should not be having a larger benefit of these things. Holding my breath.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> > Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> > Or maybe I was just that good....

>

> You're close, but not for the reason you think. Condition skills in core have less cleave and AOE associated with them; and of the AOE skills few any kind of significant uptime. This combination of poor cleave options, and long cool downs on AOE skills is what made Condi builds terrible for tagging large groups. Even in the case of outliers, its only by the graces of a generally broken trait that they managed to sometimes get around the problem.

> Now compare that to power builds, which have cleave on nearly all AA skills, and many 2h weapons having either a Large cleave, a field, or a multi-hit attack on moderately low cool down.

 

Most power builds that have cleave require you to hug the mobs. Then most AA cleaves hit 3 targets while necro staff marks hit 5 targets. And as I said most condition skills apply direct damage to, so if you are running viper you have pretty nice power damage.

 

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Crossaber.8934" said:

> > There should not be a condition build that able to heavy load damage for trash foe credit, while also doing more damage over time on long fight. Especailly with all the aoe condition spam and tanky condition gear, right?

> >

> > Pve foe should start to learn condition removal and apply resistance every 10 sec or so.

>

> I think its about time you and the others who cry for condition nerfs to tell us what you really want. The utter removal and/or nerfing to the point of viability of condition damage.

>

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

>

> Best case scenario is to stop using condition damage in arguably half of gw2?

>

> You can't be serious this isn't a solution.

>

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

>

> > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> > Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> > Or maybe I was just that good....

>

> I have your answer its called the flamethrower and its one of the best taging weapons in the game...

 

While the flamethrower is the ultimate tagging kit I was running bomb/grenades back then. FT condi was only good for the toolbelt skill.

 

Anyway lets see what will happen once the patch hit.

[UnDeadFun.5824]

I remember running core condi necro and quite frequently getting 0 or low credit on kills because something died so fast and my conditions never got a chance to ramp up. Many thing have changed since then. I don't think this will be the end for condi. They did say this is a small update and they will want our feedback once we've played it. I think we should wait until Tuesday.

[Lucifer.7289]

You can get credit on any open world pve mob by just poking it with anything...you don't need bursty conditions to tag pve mobs as a condi player.....

 

Only thing I remember in vanilla was condi was just lack-luster pve dps, since confusion functioned differently ect.....was never a problem open world tagging.

 

You also get credit for support now/healing as far as events go.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Crossaber.8934" said:

> > There should not be a condition build that able to heavy load damage for trash foe credit, while also doing more damage over time on long fight. Especailly with all the aoe condition spam and tanky condition gear, right?

> >

> > Pve foe should start to learn condition removal and apply resistance every 10 sec or so.

>

> I think its about time you and the others who cry for condition nerfs to tell us what you really want. The utter removal and/or nerfing to the point of viability of condition damage.

>

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

>

> Best case scenario is to stop using condition damage in arguably half of gw2?

>

> You can't be serious this isn't a solution.

>

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

>

> > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> > Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> > Or maybe I was just that good....

>

> I have your answer its called the flamethrower and its one of the best taging weapons in the game...

 

Good Lord what are you talking about?

[Conncept.7638]

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:

> > > There should not be a condition build that able to heavy load damage for trash foe credit, while also doing more damage over time on long fight. Especailly with all the aoe condition spam and tanky condition gear, right?

> > >

> > > Pve foe should start to learn condition removal and apply resistance every 10 sec or so.

> >

> > I think its about time you and the others who cry for condition nerfs to tell us what you really want. The utter removal and/or nerfing to the point of viability of condition damage.

> >

> > > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

> >

> > Best case scenario is to stop using condition damage in arguably half of gw2?

> >

> > You can't be serious this isn't a solution.

> >

> > > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > > I think that a pure condition build may indeed not work super well for content where mobs die quickly. That's not necessarily a problem that's going to be the nail in the coffin for condition builds though. The game allows you to switch builds, weapons and armour quickly, and mix stats in many different ways. Players could always bring more attack power loaded builds and equipment for short encounters.

> >

> > > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > > Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> > > Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> > > Or maybe I was just that good....

> >

> > I have your answer its called the flamethrower and its one of the best taging weapons in the game...

>

> Good Lord what are you talking about?

 

Honestly at this point we're on page 2 with like four responses that actually pertain to the original post. Sometimes I think these forums are a lost cause.

 

PS: For the inevitable poster looking to correct me, the above is intentional and incredibly obvious exaggeration.

[Ojimaru.8970]

Honestly, if your balance point is solely about tagging mobs, you can simply change your build and use rare level 80 Berserker gear.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

>

> Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

>

> This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

>

> This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

 

So you are saying that people playing condition builds in PVE may not get the same amount of loot due to power builds killing mobs quickly? That sounds like you are saying playing a condition build in PVE is going to be useless, from a loot perspective.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

> >

> > Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

> >

> > This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

> >

> > This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

>

> So you are saying that people playing condition builds in PVE may not get the same amount of loot due to power builds killing mobs quickly? That sounds like you are saying playing a condition build in PVE is going to be useless, from a loot perspective.

 

Are you sure about the loot? Can you provide maybe a wiki link or official statement?

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

> > >

> > > Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

> > >

> > > This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

> > >

> > > This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

> >

> > So you are saying that people playing condition builds in PVE may not get the same amount of loot due to power builds killing mobs quickly? That sounds like you are saying playing a condition build in PVE is going to be useless, from a loot perspective.

>

> Are you sure about the loot? Can you provide maybe a wiki link or official statement?

 

I'm just trying to understand what the OP said. I have no idea.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> Funny when I tried running condi engi back in the day I had no trouble taging mobs.

> Maybe it was because most skill that inflict conditions actually apply direct damage at the same time?

> Or maybe I was just that good....

 

Especially true when Viper/Sinister/Grieving all have power.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> > > > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > Conditions have not been bad since HOT.

> > > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > Conditions (in PvE) apply guaranteed dps at the risk of having them cleared, which Arenanet does not let happen. They count upon stack limits.

> > > >

> > > > Guys read the OP, I am 110% for making conditions less bursty and I understand ANets decision to do so.

> > > >

> > > > This is not about conditions damage dealing ability in general or as compared to power.

> > > >

> > > > This is about their ability to give you kill credit for "trash mobs" that die to power damage too quickly for your conditions to tick.

> > >

> > > So you are saying that people playing condition builds in PVE may not get the same amount of loot due to power builds killing mobs quickly? That sounds like you are saying playing a condition build in PVE is going to be useless, from a loot perspective.

> >

> > Are you sure about the loot? Can you provide maybe a wiki link or official statement?

>

> I'm just trying to understand what the OP said. I have no idea.

 

Well then maybe we should see how the changes will affect the loot and event tagging and then jump on our brooms with pitchforks and torches.

[Rezzet.3614]

OP argument is invalid because of one reaason conditions back then were lame because they had a 25 stack cap so if you had more than one condi player in a pve event or champ or boss the condies were wasted

 

So no its not that conditions were weak they couldnt be applied as a whole

 

Also burning and poison dint stack so theres a considerable buff