People are grossly overestimating inc 12/12 changes

[Justine.6351]

Seeing alot of "hype" for Tuesday condi "nerfs". Just going to thow this out there, don't expect the moon and the stars. I'm guessing less than 15 skill/trait changes total. In short, nothing is going to significantly change the amount of cover trash conditions bogging people down.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> Seeing alot of "hype" for Tuesday condi "nerfs". Just going to thow this out there, don't expect the moon and the stars. I'm guessing less than 15 skill/trait changes total. In short, nothing is going to significantly change the amount of cover trash conditions bogging people down.

 

And I doubt either 'side' is going to be happy.

[mulzi.8273]

nope. I never really understood why condi cleanses have not been modified/improved. It makes no sense to have most of the condi cleanses have long cooldowns and only remove one or two condis on you, when classes like scourge/mesmer can put 7 condis on you instantly, with little cooldown. The issue really is the amount of different condi's that can be applied with little/no cooldown, not really the intensity.

 

Take the Guard/FB. Burning can down someone quickly. However, because this class has no cover condis, a well-timed cleanse can counter them. You wont hear to many people complain about that. Now take scourge, who can dump 7 condis on you instantly. Lets say you take 3 cleanses. That removes at most 6 of them if you use all 3 (assuming cleanse removes 2, which most do). Then the cleanses are on long cooldowns and the scourge almost immediately puts all 7 back on you. And then there is the condi mesmer, which can apply different condis even faster.

 

Ideally, each class should have a condi they are dedicated to and remove all the other condi from them. Guards=burning, mesmer confusion, necros/revs torment, warriors/rangers/thieves bleeding, etc. Then balance around damage/cooldowns/duration around those. But that would be too much work i suppose.

 

A needed solution is to make all utility skill cleanses remove all condis on you rather than one or two and lower the cooldowns drastically on all of them.

I'd rather see each cleanse apply a 2-5s traited 'berserk stance' style buff on you, so condis cannot be immediately reapplied (kotor does something similar with cc's) but you still are susceptible to cc/direct damage. This would make condi cleanses strategic to use, and would make condi classes a bit more aware of when to bomb condis, baiting out cleanses, using cc's/other skills etc as oppose to spamming aoes and running away hoping the condis do their work. But hey, I can dream I guess.

[ThunderPanda.1872]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> Take the Guard/FB. Burning can down someone quickly. However, because this class has no cover condis, a well-timed cleanse can counter them. You wont hear to many people complain about that. Now take scourge, who can dump 7 condis on you instantly. Lets say you take 3 cleanses. That removes at most 6 of them if you use all 3 (assuming cleanse removes 2, which most do). Then the cleanses are on long cooldowns and the scourge almost immediately puts all 7 back on you. And then there is the condi mesmer, which can apply different condis even faster.

>

 

Thank you. Looking at the balance patch post, it seems like anet still do not understand why people complain so much about condi and scourge.

[Odokuro.5049]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> nope. I never really understood why condi cleanses have not been modified/improved. It makes no sense to have most of the condi cleanses have long cooldowns and only remove one or two condis on you, when classes like scourge/mesmer can put 7 condis on you instantly, with little cooldown. The issue really is the amount of different condi's that can be applied with little/no cooldown, not really the intensity.

>

> Take the Guard/FB. Burning can down someone quickly. However, because this class has no cover condis, a well-timed cleanse can counter them. You wont hear to many people complain about that. Now take scourge, who can dump 7 condis on you instantly. Lets say you take 3 cleanses. That removes at most 6 of them if you use all 3 (assuming cleanse removes 2, which most do). Then the cleanses are on long cooldowns and the scourge almost immediately puts all 7 back on you. And then there is the condi mesmer, which can apply different condis even faster.

>

> Ideally, each class should have a condi they are dedicated to and remove all the other condi from them. Guards=burning, mesmer confusion, necros/revs torment, warriors/rangers/thieves bleeding, etc. Then balance around damage/cooldowns/duration around those. But that would be too much work i suppose.

>

> A needed solution is to make all utility skill cleanses remove all condis on you rather than one or two and lower the cooldowns drastically on all of them.

> I'd rather see each cleanse apply a 2-5s traited 'berserk stance' style buff on you, so condis cannot be immediately reapplied (kotor does something similar with cc's) but you still are susceptible to cc/direct damage. This would make condi cleanses strategic to use, and would make condi classes a bit more aware of when to bomb condis, baiting out cleanses, using cc's/other skills etc as oppose to spamming aoes and running away hoping the condis do their work. But hey, I can dream I guess.

 

+1 Thumb

 

I honestly love reading forum posts like this, it's rare you come across someone who presents facts over opinions, and educated information over "The sky is falling", panic mumbles, lol.

 

[Sovereign.1093]

as long as they keep balancing, there is hope. it is a guess and check process.

[Burnfall.9573]

**"You Can't Get Out Of

Debt While Keeping

The Same lifestyle

That Got You There'**

 

Expect the same in 12/12

[apharma.3741]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. **This is also a smaller scope update.**

>

> We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

 

This is a quote from Irenio in the same thread, bolted the part relevant to this topic for everyone. As Justine says I doubt it’ll affect more than 15 skills/traits, people are really blowing this small patch completely out of proportion thinking it’s going to suddenly make all condi bad in PvE, make condi balanced in PvP/WvW, walk on water and feed a small country with a few loaves of bread and fish.

[Exciton.8942]

If you got caught in the AOEs, you will always be loaded with tons of conditions. Of course, it won't be changed by just a few skill adjustment.

[Vavume.8065]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> People are grossly overestimating inc 12/12 changes

 

Actually I'm grossly underestimating the changes.

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > People are grossly overestimating inc 12/12 changes

>

> Actually I'm grossly underestimating the changes.

>

>

 

i am being realistic... it wont solve nothing.

Players will be able to achieve same results, it will be to mascarede the lame combat design, they cant change it cause this game was ment to carry pve players or players that didnt liked/or were bad at other mmo's....

[Arcaedus.7290]

I fear this pach may ironically make some builds stronger than before. Couple of examples:

 

* For burn guards: Some of the most effective burn guard bursts rely on multiple hits all applying 1-2 burn stacks at a time rather than a large single burning spike. With burn durations increased, and many skills' burn stack applications remaining the same (since you can't decrease 1-2 stacks down to zero), burn guards will be free to take cover-condi sigils rather than smoldering making cleansing against them even more difficult.

 

* Necro and mes at large: These two classes have more passive vulnerability traits than anything else in the game. I'd imagine at least one of the incoming changes to the passive vulnerability traits will result in a very large buff to either the damage/cover condi ability for the current meta builds these classes run.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

They should add immunity to the condition you just cleared for 1s to 2s after clearing. Like revealed and stealth.

[Malerian.8435]

Condis will do the same amount of damage over time. They initial tick will not be as bad, but Condis will still be to OP.

[takatsu.9416]

Let's wait for the patch. I don't think they are blanket adjusting all classes to have vulnerability, and all Condi skills less stacks longer duration, don't panic about some classes getting a buff yet.

 

I think even taking one type of Condi away from a class like scourge can help bounds already. It doesn't have to be focused on one single condi but definitely not 5 at once. And Condi cleanse might need a buff yes.

 

But that said if they implement stronger Condi cleanse and more narrow scope Condi, they'd need to buff Condi damage, which results in the same condition burst concept. That is totally opposite of and moving away from the intention of condition damage. We'd be talking about more controlled and timed Condi burst again, and there really would be less and less difference between power and Condi.

 

I think conditions are meant not to be easily cleansed and to deal some pressure over time, win through sustain over burst. So I think they're going towards the right direction but the numbers remain to be looked at

[XxsdgxX.8109]

And it seems like they are **doing absolutely nothing** against classes being able to insta apply 6-8 conditions, they are just making them last longer.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I'm surprised that people are already complaining about the patch before it's even out. Usually, people wait at least for the patch notes (even though they have no idea how well the changes actually play out in game).

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I'm surprised that people are already complaining about the patch before it's even out. Usually, people wait at least for the patch notes (even though they have no idea how well the changes actually play out in game).

 

You would think WvWers would wait for things to hit before complaining. D:

[X T D.6458]

How can people over/underestimate an update that has not even been implemented yet?

[Ruxity.7246]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> How can people over/underestimate an update that has not even been implemented yet?

 

Because they're estimating. 1 estimate /ˈɛstəmət/ noun

plural estimates

Learner's definition of ESTIMATE

1

[count] : a guess that you make based on the information you have about the size, amount, etc., of something

[MUDse.7623]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> nope. I never really understood why condi cleanses have not been modified/improved. It makes no sense to have most of the condi cleanses have long cooldowns and only remove one or two condis on you, when classes like scourge/mesmer can put 7 condis on you instantly, with little cooldown. The issue really is the amount of different condi's that can be applied with little/no cooldown, not really the intensity.

>

> Take the Guard/FB. Burning can down someone quickly. However, because this class has no cover condis, a well-timed cleanse can counter them. You wont hear to many people complain about that. Now take scourge, who can dump 7 condis on you instantly. Lets say you take 3 cleanses. That removes at most 6 of them if you use all 3 (assuming cleanse removes 2, which most do). Then the cleanses are on long cooldowns and the scourge almost immediately puts all 7 back on you. And then there is the condi mesmer, which can apply different condis even faster.

>

> Ideally, each class should have a condi they are dedicated to and remove all the other condi from them. Guards=burning, mesmer confusion, necros/revs torment, warriors/rangers/thieves bleeding, etc. Then balance around damage/cooldowns/duration around those. But that would be too much work i suppose.

>

> A needed solution is to make all utility skill cleanses remove all condis on you rather than one or two and lower the cooldowns drastically on all of them.

> I'd rather see each cleanse apply a 2-5s traited 'berserk stance' style buff on you, so condis cannot be immediately reapplied (kotor does something similar with cc's) but you still are susceptible to cc/direct damage. This would make condi cleanses strategic to use, and would make condi classes a bit more aware of when to bomb condis, baiting out cleanses, using cc's/other skills etc as oppose to spamming aoes and running away hoping the condis do their work. But hey, I can dream I guess.

 

as you said FB can easily be countered by cleanses cause of lack of cover conditions. what would you say to more specific condition cleanses? thief for instance has shadows embrace that will only cleanse damaging conditions, sure the other ones espcially weakness is annoying but i often can stand full berserk in quite many scourge stuff as long as i dont leave stealth without going low. so if more cleanses would just cleanse damaging conditions and some that removes soft cc like blind , weakness, cripple, chill etc. i think that would help alot and would add more 'skill' to it aside from pop that condi cleanse and hope for the RNG god to bless you.

[Kiroshima.8497]

Maybe they could give an "Arming Time" to conditions, in which the first couple of ticks do reduced damage (50%?).

 

Then add traits that sacrifice duration by large amounts in exchange for immediate damage.

 

AKA say your burn does 1k over 4 seconds. Obviously currently each burn would tick for 250.

 

With arming time, the first 2 ticks would do 125 (50%), but the second 2 ticks would do 375.

Then with the new trait "Quick Burning" your burns would last only for 3 (-25% duration) seconds, but each tick would do 333 damage (250 * 1.33) instead.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Kiroshima.8497" said:

> Maybe they could give an "Arming Time" to conditions, in which the first couple of ticks do reduced damage (50%?).

>

> Then add traits that sacrifice duration by large amounts in exchange for immediate damage.

>

> AKA say your burn does 1k over 4 seconds. Obviously currently each burn would tick for 250.

>

> With arming time, the first 2 ticks would do 125 (50%), but the second 2 ticks would do 375.

> Then with the new trait "Quick Burning" your burns would last only for 3 (-25% duration) seconds, but each tick would do 333 damage (250 * 1.33) instead.

 

Let's face it that no one on either side will ever be truly happy. So while the "arming of wasted ticks" occur, cleanse and beat down the opponent with power? I think some areas of condi builds need adjusted but being smacked down with power burst is no different. I play both sides and as I mentioned in another post, I think it is more of who gets to who first in most beat downs.

 

I think we will see some adjustments and then the forums will be filled with chatter over that and the see saw battle will continue.

[kiwituatara.6053]

Condition damage wouldn't be so bad in WvW if they hadn't introduced Dire/Trailblazer gear. Get rid of these stat combinations and make those existing armor stat selectable (like the time when they got rid of magic find gear).

[BadMed.3846]

The over empowerment of conditions has put this game in a boring and sad state. I hope the patch does go some way in giving it.