Is Joko already out?

[Ayakaru.6583]

In Path of Fire we meet Palawa Joko in the forgotten part of the underworld, and he 'gives' us the idea to take his army.

To which end we kill Archon Iberu and take his place by very poor mesmerism (please polish that, anet*1.)

In Istan, during the raid on Palawadan, we fight Awakened Archon Iberu and it dawned on me.. is Joko already out?

I mean, we killed Iberu after meeting Joko in the underworld, which doesn't absolutely guarantee, but heavily implies that, Palawa Joko is already back out.

 

What are your opinions on the matter, and if he is out, how does it involve the mysterious person from chapter 1, in Fahranur?

 

Comment on (1)

We get a purple glow. Why dont we get Iberu's model and his voice actor. It was so weird to hear a female Asura talk when everyone pretended Iberu was talking to them. Worse yet was the fact everyone was looking *down* at me, as if they knew my eyes were at the height of where normally Iberu's kneecaps would be.

[Feanor.2358]

According to [wiki](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko "wiki") he was "able to free himself" with the defeat of Balthazar. Personally I don't like such events happening behind the scenes.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I think this is one of the most important open questions after LW S4E1. The sort answer is that we do not know.

We do know that there is someone claiming to be PJ roaming around and claiming credit for historic facts that happened when PJ was in the Realm of the Lost. This person also has put a bounty on our head.

 

So he is or is not the real PJ.

some pro's an con's.

 

The PJ in Istan is a fraud:

Pro: It explains the bounty perfectly. It fits better with the things we know from the domain of the lost. It also makes sense for having a mysterious figure as a wannabe antigonist

Con: Dejavu to the last imposter in LW S3

 

The PJ in Istan is the real deal:

Pro: It makes sense. As a dev told us, the domain, as well as the other Godly realms, are being invaded by all sorts of demons and ghosts. It is perfectly possible someone entered after us and freed PJ (maybe even Archon Iberu)

Con: More gaps to the PoF story that needs explaining in future episodes.

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> According to [wiki](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko "wiki") he was "able to free himself" with the defeat of Balthazar. Personally I don't like such events happening behind the scenes.

 

I added a Citation needed to this wiki page. Specially cause the Istan Awakened are known to spread 'fake news', the source matters a lot.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

 

> We get a purple glow. Why dont we get Iberu's model and his voice actor. It was so weird to hear a female Asura talk when everyone pretended Iberu was talking to them. Worse yet was the fact everyone was looking *down* at me, as if they knew my eyes were at the height of where normally Iberu's kneecaps would be.

 

I do think that was by design. You can see a mirage-y portrait of Iberu in the glow, so it's obviously something they put a deal of thought into. If I had to guess, I'd say they didn't want to force us to play through a fairly substantial chunk of the story, and near the finale too, with our character model overwritten.

 

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

 

>It is perfectly possible someone entered after us and freed PJ (maybe even Archon Iberu)

 

That's the thing, though. From everything we know, we've _already_ freed Joko.

 

The chains binding him are said to be manifested by Balthazar's will- that's why the Judge can't do anything to move him. It stands to reason, then, that with Balthazar dead...

 

After that, it's just a mundane cage, and then he's loose in the Domain. It's perfectly possible that he left the same way we did, through the permanent portal behind the gate. It's possible that he was telling the truth about leading Balthazar to the Domain, in which case, of course he would have a way out. Either way, it's not likely that a several-hundred-year-old lich king is going to be terribly daunted by a place that was never designed to be a prison to begin with. In fact, there's even an implication that the Judge would help him to leave, because he's not meant to be there until he's truly dead.

 

Then there's the fact that we hear Joko's voice. And that Taimi, who did see her captor, acknowledged that it was Joko. And that the quest log states ["Joko is back from the Domain of the Lost".](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hero_of_Istan#My_story) It's true that the story can go whatever direction the devs want it to, but so far they've given us many reasons to believe he really is back, and no reason to think that he isn't besides some ambiguous dialogue and that they didn't let us come face-to-face with an enemy they're clearly not ready for us to confront yet.

[ugrakarma.9416]

supposedly, if he was trapped by some magic or balthazar chains, they vanished when balthazar was defeated.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

It’s likely not PJ in LS4 as that would be too obvious and wouldn’t add much to the story. It being someone else makes it more interesting.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> In Path of Fire we meet Palawa Joko in the forgotten part of the underworld, and he 'gives' us the idea to take his army.

> To which end we kill Archon Iberu and take his place by very poor mesmerism (please polish that, anet*1.)

> In Istan, during the raid on Palawadan, we fight Awakened Archon Iberu and it dawned on me.. is Joko already out?

> I mean, we killed Iberu after meeting Joko in the underworld, which doesn't absolutely guarantee, but heavily implies that, Palawa Joko is already back out.

>

> What are your opinions on the matter, and if he is out, how does it involve the mysterious person from chapter 1, in Fahranur?

>

> Comment on (1)

> We get a purple glow. Why dont we get Iberu's model and his voice actor. It was so weird to hear a female Asura talk when everyone pretended Iberu was talking to them. Worse yet was the fact everyone was looking *down* at me, as if they knew my eyes were at the height of where normally Iberu's kneecaps would be.

 

Palawa Joko was in the lab in Fahranur, we heard his voice AND that Taimi screams HE is coming, she can recognize the gender. And we can recognize the voice because we heard it in the Underworld.

 

Palawa Joko left the lab before the "Mysterious Figure" by the central portal that leaded to somewhere we don't know yet. Also people are looking to deep into this "Mysterious Figure", that is just another Warden Amala or Archon Iberu. Why they didn't just name her like that: I have no idea, but I guess just to make the role-players busy.

 

And I'd not call this spell that Kas created "poor mesmerism", it was called Lyssa's Guise. So she summoned Lyssa's powers (I am not saying that Lyssa didnt left Tyria... this theory starts to make me exhausted...).

 

 

[Arden.7480]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> supposedly, if he was trapped by some magic or balthazar chains, they vanished when balthazar was defeated.

>

 

OR... somebody released him. We don't know, but this is also a possibility.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

We hear Joko's voice through the communication device. Taimi refers to a "he" in relation to Joko's voice.

 

Not once has Anet used a known voice to trick us into thinking someone was someone else. And besides, a "fake Joko" plot would just be a repeat of the "fake Lazarus" plot. ANet is more creative than that.

 

What bound Joko was powered by Balthazar's will. Balthazar dead = no will of Balthazar = what us continuously powered by said will won't be anymore.

 

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > According to [wiki](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko "wiki") he was "able to free himself" with the defeat of Balthazar. Personally I don't like such events happening behind the scenes.

>

> I added a Citation needed to this wiki page. Specially cause the Istan Awakened are known to spread 'fake news', the source matters a lot.

 

So the Pact Commander hearing Joko's voice is an Awakened's lies?

 

The PC acts as if it cannot be Joko until Joko's voice is heard through the communication device and Taimi refers to a he. That's pretty solid information especially when what we were told about Joko's bindings indicated that he would be freed with Balthazar's death.

 

Honestly it's stranger that the PC was so convinced that it couldn't be Joko until hearing the voice. But that to me makes it all the more certain since that flows with PC perception writing throughout GW2.

[Coulter.2315]

He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Coulter.2315" said:

> He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

 

maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> And I'd not call this spell that Kas created "poor mesmerism", it was called Lyssa's Guise. So she summoned Lyssa's powers (I am not saying that Lyssa didnt left Tyria... this theory starts to make me exhausted...).

>

 

Im not saying it was lorewise weak, it was on the screen. We just looked like ourselves, talked like ouselves, while everyone pretended we were Archon Iberu, while Canach and Rytlock got full on awakened models and gritty voices.

All I’m saying is we should’ve looked like, and talked like, Archon Iberu instead of our normal selves.

It was kinda ruining immersion to just have everyone pretend I was Iberu

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

>

> maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

 

But it is very well established that spells not tied to artifacts fail once the caster is killed, and it is outright stated during The Departing:

 

Nenah: What's worse, the magics Balthazar used to contain him are beyond the judge's power to break.

Nenah: They exist at Balthazar's will.

 

Most people who frequent the lore forums were fully expecting this to mean Joko would be freed with Balthazar's death, and some of us (myself included) cringed at the PC taunting Joko upon leaving.

 

This is far from surprising. It's less of a shock than Caithe not actually being evil or Canach returning to be a good guy.

 

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > And I'd not call this spell that Kas created "poor mesmerism", it was called Lyssa's Guise. So she summoned Lyssa's powers (I am not saying that Lyssa didnt left Tyria... this theory starts to make me exhausted...).

> >

>

> Im not saying it was lorewise weak, it was on the screen. We just looked like ourselves, talked like ouselves, while everyone pretended we were Archon Iberu, while Canach and Rytlock got full on awakened models and gritty voices.

> All I’m saying is we should’ve looked like, and talked like, Archon Iberu instead of our normal selves.

> It was kinda ruining immersion to just have everyone pretend I was Iberu

 

I actually preferred the way they did it, which was as Aaron mentioned, there was a purple cloud over you and if you angled it right, you could see a 2d image of Iberu to signify that you're disguised as him.

 

I wouldn't have minded an undertone of Iberu's voice acting to underline the PC's, but I would **not** have enjoyed playing through four or five instances looking and sounding like Iberu just to make the illusion seem more real.

 

The fact that what we see and hear looks and sounds like ourselves is even brought up in the story:

 

Lady Kasmeer Maede: Okay, one archon and his entourage—coming up.

Lady Kasmeer Maede: There.

Rytlock Brimstone: So? How do I look?

Canach: Like something that's been dead and buried for a year, then dug up and dragged back to life. How about me?

Rytlock Brimstone: Same.

 

This dialogue subtly shows that none of the four in our group see or hear themselves as the individual being disguised. Which makes quite a bit of sense.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > And I'd not call this spell that Kas created "poor mesmerism", it was called Lyssa's Guise. So she summoned Lyssa's powers (I am not saying that Lyssa didnt left Tyria... this theory starts to make me exhausted...).

> >

>

> Im not saying it was lorewise weak, it was on the screen. We just looked like ourselves, talked like ouselves, while everyone pretended we were Archon Iberu, while Canach and Rytlock got full on awakened models and gritty voices.

> All I’m saying is we should’ve looked like, and talked like, Archon Iberu instead of our normal selves.

> It was kinda ruining immersion to just have everyone pretend I was Iberu

 

for some reason i dont know, ppl hated very much our PC transformation into **Caithe** in **LS2**, i guess Anet wanted avoid this again, even the use of Sohotin was optional than forced skills.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

>

> maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

 

Yet it makes for a better narrative than some random dude we likely have never met or even worse some minor character that absolutely no-one cares about or even worse than that some lame twist that feels completely forced.

 

We have to ask ourselves what’s the better story?

 

Our character choosing to not help PJ and then having to face the consequences of our actions, acknowledging that it led to a disastrous outcome and we should make better more well thought out plans in the future. Fighting a well known, charismatic NPC that has personality as well as motives for doing what they are doing even if they’re a little shallow, with an established back story and impact on the world around them. Maybe even leading to dragons watch actually acting as a team and growing where each plays to their strengths but coming up with concise well thought out strategies and seeking actual allies before dying because they ran in halfprepared and winged it.

 

Or

 

Some random dude or major character forced into a really bizarre portrayal all in the name of drama, suspense and buzzwords doing something because they twirl their moustache and are evil or even worse for some reason that has been made up almost because it makes a really bizarre load of cool sounding stuff happened? I mean Balthazar essentially boiled down to “I just want everyone to die and be the most powerful being because...er....DIE MORTAL!” No back story or reasons why he wants all of that, just that he wanted everything to die because he’s the god of war I guess?

 

Edit: before someone mentions the library, no that’s not a back story, it didn’t explain why he had the view point he had only that he wanted to kill all the elder dragons and then that the human gods would be next because they didn’t follow him. He already wanted to essentially kill everyone.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

> >

> > maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

>

> Yet it makes for a better narrative than some random dude we likely have never met or even worse some minor character that absolutely no-one cares about or even worse than that some lame twist that feels completely forced.

>

> We have to ask ourselves what’s the better story?

>

> Our character choosing to not help PJ and then having to face the consequences of our actions, acknowledging that it led to a disastrous outcome and we should make better more well thought out plans in the future. Fighting a well known, charismatic NPC that has personality as well as motives for doing what they are doing even if they’re a little shallow, with an established back story and impact on the world around them. Maybe even leading to dragons watch actually acting as a team and growing where each plays to their strengths but coming up with concise well thought out strategies and seeking actual allies before dying because they ran in halfprepared and winged it.

>

> Or

>

> Some random dude or major character forced into a really bizarre portrayal all in the name of drama, suspense and buzzwords doing something because they twirl their moustache and are evil or even worse for some reason that has been made up almost because it makes a really bizarre load of cool sounding stuff happened? I mean Balthazar essentially boiled down to “I just want everyone to die and be the most powerful being because...er....DIE MORTAL!” No back story or reasons why he wants all of that, just that he wanted everything to die because he’s the god of war I guess?

>

> Edit: before someone mentions the library, no that’s not a back story, it didn’t explain why he had the view point he had only that he wanted to kill all the elder dragons and then that the human gods would be next because they didn’t follow him. He already wanted to essentially kill everyone.

 

Nice black-or-white fallacy you have here. Let me critique it a bit.

 

1. Since when is PJ charismatic? What I saw in the Domain of the Lost was a pompous dude with a heavy grandomania. An impression well furthered by the size and number of his statues across Elona, not to mention his desire to be the hero of every story out there.

 

2. There's a pretty strong motivation for impersonating PJ. An entire empire is up for grabs. Which is frankly way more believable than holding a petty grudge and acting like an angsty teenager... coming from an undead lich who supposedly lived for centuries.

 

3. If a turbocharged Elder Dragon isn't enough of a threat to make DW act as a team, I find it highly unlikely that a mere lich is.

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> We hear Joko's voice through the communication device. Taimi refers to a "he" in relation to Joko's voice.

>

> Not once has Anet used a known voice to trick us into thinking someone was someone else. And besides, a "fake Joko" plot would just be a repeat of the "fake Lazarus" plot. ANet is more creative than that.

>

> What bound Joko was powered by Balthazar's will. Balthazar dead = no will of Balthazar = what us continuously powered by said will won't be anymore.

>

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > According to [wiki](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko "wiki") he was "able to free himself" with the defeat of Balthazar. Personally I don't like such events happening behind the scenes.

> >

> > I added a Citation needed to this wiki page. Specially cause the Istan Awakened are known to spread 'fake news', the source matters a lot.

>

> So the Pact Commander hearing Joko's voice is an Awakened's lies?

>

> The PC acts as if it cannot be Joko until Joko's voice is heard through the communication device and Taimi refers to a he. That's pretty solid information especially when what we were told about Joko's bindings indicated that he would be freed with Balthazar's death.

>

> Honestly it's stranger that the PC was so convinced that it couldn't be Joko until hearing the voice. But that to me makes it all the more certain since that flows with PC perception writing throughout GW2.

 

No I haven't said that the pact commander is a lie. I'm saying that hearing his voice can be a fabrication.

Recently I posted about the difference between dragon minions and god demons. Explaining that dragon minions are tied to the dragons power, while god demons follow their master on their own will. There is an assumption that Joko's prison bars where gone when Balthasar died. I do think this is an assumption supporting one theory. We simply don't know how different godlike artifacts functions. We know that Lyssa's mirror was used by Balthasar, after she departed (although there is a theory she stayed behind as well)

 

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that one theory or the other is true or false, but be aware to not take assumptions for facts. Arenanet storytelling has a long history of imposters and disguises. starting with the Undead Lich. I agree it would be lame to do it again, and I actually do hope they didn't. But I also hope that the release of Joko will be explained in more details (if it really is him)

[apharma.3741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > > > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

> > >

> > > maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

> >

> > Yet it makes for a better narrative than some random dude we likely have never met or even worse some minor character that absolutely no-one cares about or even worse than that some lame twist that feels completely forced.

> >

> > We have to ask ourselves what’s the better story?

> >

> > Our character choosing to not help PJ and then having to face the consequences of our actions, acknowledging that it led to a disastrous outcome and we should make better more well thought out plans in the future. Fighting a well known, charismatic NPC that has personality as well as motives for doing what they are doing even if they’re a little shallow, with an established back story and impact on the world around them. Maybe even leading to dragons watch actually acting as a team and growing where each plays to their strengths but coming up with concise well thought out strategies and seeking actual allies before dying because they ran in halfprepared and winged it.

> >

> > Or

> >

> > Some random dude or major character forced into a really bizarre portrayal all in the name of drama, suspense and buzzwords doing something because they twirl their moustache and are evil or even worse for some reason that has been made up almost because it makes a really bizarre load of cool sounding stuff happened? I mean Balthazar essentially boiled down to “I just want everyone to die and be the most powerful being because...er....DIE MORTAL!” No back story or reasons why he wants all of that, just that he wanted everything to die because he’s the god of war I guess?

> >

> > Edit: before someone mentions the library, no that’s not a back story, it didn’t explain why he had the view point he had only that he wanted to kill all the elder dragons and then that the human gods would be next because they didn’t follow him. He already wanted to essentially kill everyone.

>

> Nice black-or-white fallacy you have here. Let me critique it a bit.

>

> 1. Since when is PJ charismatic? What I saw in the Domain of the Lost was a pompous dude with a heavy grandomania. An impression well furthered by the size and number of his statues across Elona, not to mention his desire to be the hero of every story out there.

>

> 2. There's a pretty strong motivation for impersonating PJ. An entire empire is up for grabs. Which is frankly way more believable than holding a petty grudge and acting like an angsty teenager... coming from an undead lich who supposedly lived for centuries.

>

> 3. If a turbocharged Elder Dragon isn't enough of a threat to make DW act as a team, I find it highly unlikely that a mere lich is.

 

I would call PJ charismatic, have you not seen the amount of people running around with disciple of PJ or saying praise Joko?

 

Sure, but we already established most don’t actually know he’s gone. However PJ is the type to hold grudges, he is the type to be petty, I mean can you call his hilarious depictions of the history of Tyria anything but childish?

 

The idea isn’t that facing the enemy makes them into a team it’s the failing and learning from their mistakes and the consequences of their actions that turns them into a real team. Where they see the outcome of their selfish, stubborn and unreasonable behaviour and wish to avoid it happening again.

 

Edit: Many of the big bads in GW2 have been little more than moustache twirling villains. Scarlett only became more because LW2 expanded o her motives but it wasn’t there at the time. Caudicus also got close but failed at the very end where says he murdered his wife and then murders his daughter for no reason other than being mad with power? Had they tied his wife’s death to a Charr killing her he’d have been a great villain with real motives for wanting the crown and power, to wage war on the Charr as well as having a motive to kill Demi. She worked with Tybalt, a Charr, and so is a conspirator in his delusional state but instead he just twirls his moustache, rants a bit and kills her in a bit of a lame shock.

 

This is a worrying trend with many of the villains in the stories, they’re evil because they just are, even Balthazar didn’t have any other reason to kill the elder dragons other than I want to kill them. It’s even worse with characters turning up, doing a plot related thing or tying up a GW1 loose end then dying, Vlast being the prime example. Heck a gold sink quaggan begger elicited more of an emotional response from most players than most of these characters.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > > > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > > > > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

> > > >

> > > > maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

> > >

> > > Yet it makes for a better narrative than some random dude we likely have never met or even worse some minor character that absolutely no-one cares about or even worse than that some lame twist that feels completely forced.

> > >

> > > We have to ask ourselves what’s the better story?

> > >

> > > Our character choosing to not help PJ and then having to face the consequences of our actions, acknowledging that it led to a disastrous outcome and we should make better more well thought out plans in the future. Fighting a well known, charismatic NPC that has personality as well as motives for doing what they are doing even if they’re a little shallow, with an established back story and impact on the world around them. Maybe even leading to dragons watch actually acting as a team and growing where each plays to their strengths but coming up with concise well thought out strategies and seeking actual allies before dying because they ran in halfprepared and winged it.

> > >

> > > Or

> > >

> > > Some random dude or major character forced into a really bizarre portrayal all in the name of drama, suspense and buzzwords doing something because they twirl their moustache and are evil or even worse for some reason that has been made up almost because it makes a really bizarre load of cool sounding stuff happened? I mean Balthazar essentially boiled down to “I just want everyone to die and be the most powerful being because...er....DIE MORTAL!” No back story or reasons why he wants all of that, just that he wanted everything to die because he’s the god of war I guess?

> > >

> > > Edit: before someone mentions the library, no that’s not a back story, it didn’t explain why he had the view point he had only that he wanted to kill all the elder dragons and then that the human gods would be next because they didn’t follow him. He already wanted to essentially kill everyone.

> >

> > Nice black-or-white fallacy you have here. Let me critique it a bit.

> >

> > 1. Since when is PJ charismatic? What I saw in the Domain of the Lost was a pompous dude with a heavy grandomania. An impression well furthered by the size and number of his statues across Elona, not to mention his desire to be the hero of every story out there.

> >

> > 2. There's a pretty strong motivation for impersonating PJ. An entire empire is up for grabs. Which is frankly way more believable than holding a petty grudge and acting like an angsty teenager... coming from an undead lich who supposedly lived for centuries.

> >

> > 3. If a turbocharged Elder Dragon isn't enough of a threat to make DW act as a team, I find it highly unlikely that a mere lich is.

>

> I would call PJ charismatic, have you not seen the amount of people running around with disciple of PJ or saying praise Joko?

>

> Sure, but we already established most don’t actually know he’s gone. However PJ is the type to hold grudges, he is the type to be petty, I mean can you call his hilarious depictions of the history of Tyria anything but childish?

 

Yeah, and I never understood why he's supposed to be cool. It's all just a meme to me. He's popular because he's popular, it doesn't make him charismatic.

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> The idea isn’t that facing the enemy makes them into a team it’s the failing and learning from their mistakes and the consequences of their actions that turns them into a real team. Where they see the outcome of their selfish, stubborn and unreasonable behaviour and wish to avoid it happening again.

 

Again. Turbocharged Elder Dragon. The current state of Tyria is largely a consequence to our actions. It has all been "do what must be done to save the world" but regardless the world has only slipped from one peril to another. In comparison to all these threats, PJ is just a nuisance.

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Edit: Many of the big bads in GW2 have been little more than moustache twirling villains. Scarlett only became more because LW2 expanded o her motives but it wasn’t there at the time. Caudicus also got close but failed at the very end where says he murdered his wife and then murders his daughter for no reason other than being mad with power? Had they tied his wife’s death to a Charr killing her he’d have been a great villain with real motives for wanting the crown and power, to wage war on the Charr as well as having a motive to kill Demi. She worked with Tybalt, a Charr, and so is a conspirator in his delusional state but instead he just twirls his moustache, rants a bit and kills her in a bit of a lame shock.

>

> This is a worrying trend with many of the villains in the stories, they’re evil because they just are, even Balthazar didn’t have any other reason to kill the elder dragons other than I want to kill them. It’s even worse with characters turning up, doing a plot related thing or tying up a GW1 loose end then dying, Vlast being the prime example. Heck a gold sink quaggan begger elicited more of an emotional response from most players than most of these characters.

 

Agreed. Looking from this side, it is entirely possible that we get Joko as our villain during LS4. He fits the archetype. I just don't particularly like such shallow villains and I always hope the story to do something... better.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > > > > > @"Coulter.2315" said:

> > > > > > He was imprisoned by Balthazar's magic, when Balthazar died the prison failed.

> > > > >

> > > > > maybe. But it is somehow to easy imo.

> > > >

> > > > Yet it makes for a better narrative than some random dude we likely have never met or even worse some minor character that absolutely no-one cares about or even worse than that some lame twist that feels completely forced.

> > > >

> > > > We have to ask ourselves what’s the better story?

> > > >

> > > > Our character choosing to not help PJ and then having to face the consequences of our actions, acknowledging that it led to a disastrous outcome and we should make better more well thought out plans in the future. Fighting a well known, charismatic NPC that has personality as well as motives for doing what they are doing even if they’re a little shallow, with an established back story and impact on the world around them. Maybe even leading to dragons watch actually acting as a team and growing where each plays to their strengths but coming up with concise well thought out strategies and seeking actual allies before dying because they ran in halfprepared and winged it.

> > > >

> > > > Or

> > > >

> > > > Some random dude or major character forced into a really bizarre portrayal all in the name of drama, suspense and buzzwords doing something because they twirl their moustache and are evil or even worse for some reason that has been made up almost because it makes a really bizarre load of cool sounding stuff happened? I mean Balthazar essentially boiled down to “I just want everyone to die and be the most powerful being because...er....DIE MORTAL!” No back story or reasons why he wants all of that, just that he wanted everything to die because he’s the god of war I guess?

> > > >

> > > > Edit: before someone mentions the library, no that’s not a back story, it didn’t explain why he had the view point he had only that he wanted to kill all the elder dragons and then that the human gods would be next because they didn’t follow him. He already wanted to essentially kill everyone.

> > >

> > > Nice black-or-white fallacy you have here. Let me critique it a bit.

> > >

> > > 1. Since when is PJ charismatic? What I saw in the Domain of the Lost was a pompous dude with a heavy grandomania. An impression well furthered by the size and number of his statues across Elona, not to mention his desire to be the hero of every story out there.

> > >

> > > 2. There's a pretty strong motivation for impersonating PJ. An entire empire is up for grabs. Which is frankly way more believable than holding a petty grudge and acting like an angsty teenager... coming from an undead lich who supposedly lived for centuries.

> > >

> > > 3. If a turbocharged Elder Dragon isn't enough of a threat to make DW act as a team, I find it highly unlikely that a mere lich is.

> >

> > I would call PJ charismatic, have you not seen the amount of people running around with disciple of PJ or saying praise Joko?

> >

> > Sure, but we already established most don’t actually know he’s gone. However PJ is the type to hold grudges, he is the type to be petty, I mean can you call his hilarious depictions of the history of Tyria anything but childish?

>

> Yeah, and I never understood why he's supposed to be cool. It's all just a meme to me. He's popular because he's popular, it doesn't make him charismatic.

>

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > The idea isn’t that facing the enemy makes them into a team it’s the failing and learning from their mistakes and the consequences of their actions that turns them into a real team. Where they see the outcome of their selfish, stubborn and unreasonable behaviour and wish to avoid it happening again.

>

> Again. Turbocharged Elder Dragon. The current state of Tyria is largely a consequence to our actions. It has all been "do what must be done to save the world" but regardless the world has only slipped from one peril to another. In comparison to all these threats, PJ is just a nuisance.

>

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Edit: Many of the big bads in GW2 have been little more than moustache twirling villains. Scarlett only became more because LW2 expanded o her motives but it wasn’t there at the time. Caudicus also got close but failed at the very end where says he murdered his wife and then murders his daughter for no reason other than being mad with power? Had they tied his wife’s death to a Charr killing her he’d have been a great villain with real motives for wanting the crown and power, to wage war on the Charr as well as having a motive to kill Demi. She worked with Tybalt, a Charr, and so is a conspirator in his delusional state but instead he just twirls his moustache, rants a bit and kills her in a bit of a lame shock.

> >

> > This is a worrying trend with many of the villains in the stories, they’re evil because they just are, even Balthazar didn’t have any other reason to kill the elder dragons other than I want to kill them. It’s even worse with characters turning up, doing a plot related thing or tying up a GW1 loose end then dying, Vlast being the prime example. Heck a gold sink quaggan begger elicited more of an emotional response from most players than most of these characters.

>

> **Agreed. Looking from this side, it is entirely possible that we get Joko as our villain during LS4. He fits the archetype. I just don't particularly like such shallow villains and I always hope the story to do something... better.**

 

Yep he is shallow and really his motives are just wanting power and to conquer everything but at least he has a reason to want to kill the commander specifically and a bigger backstory than “I came up on the villain roulette this year, don’t worry you’ll get a new one next year.”

 

Would be nice to have a real villain, maybe Braham might turn into a compelling villain as a leader of a renegade group of Norn that want to kill all elder dragons because of the people they have lost. Maybe we can infiltrate their camp one evening and instead of them being heartless monsters they sit around a camp fire sharing stories of who they lost, comforting each other before steeling themselves for what they should do, kill the dragons.

[Arden.7480]

Why I think that Joko might have been released by somebody??

 

Because Joko asked us to release him, I think he knew that killing Balthazar won't release him, and this women that was talking to him, certainly said the same thing as she said to us: "What's worse, the magics Balthazar used to contain him are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will."

 

So Joko certainly knew it, so why he didn't just say: "Oh leave me here, I'll be fine (*sarcastic*)", if killing Balthazar would release him.

 

He's tricky and he uses every way to not get tired. Why he asked us to release him? I think he knew that only by this way he can be free.

 

So somebody gave him a sock, I mean released him.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> Why I think that Joko might have been released by somebody??

>

> Because Joko asked us to release him, I think he knew that killing Balthazar won't release him, and this women that was talking to him, certainly said the same thing as she said to us: "What's worse, the magics Balthazar used to contain him are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will."

>

> So Joko certainly knew it, so why he didn't just say: "Oh leave me here, I'll be fine (*sarcastic*)", if killing Balthazar would release him.

>

> He's tricky and he uses every way to not get tired. Why he asked us to release him? I think he knew that only by this way he can be free.

>

> So somebody gave him a sock, I mean released him.

>

>

 

Joko is a free el... errr, lich.

[otto.5684]

There is a strong possibility it was not Joko at all, or that he is working on behalf of a greater power. There has been multiple hints that Lyssa was involved with Balthazar, and there is a good chance she is the one moving things behind the scenes.

 

In any case, so far what I have seen from Joko in PoF and LS4 episode 1, he is nothing more than a lame Scoopy Doo villain that will end-up on the chopping board very soon. Nothing remotely interesting.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> No I haven't said that the pact commander is a lie. I'm saying that hearing his voice can be a fabrication.

 

fab·ri·ca·tion

ˌfabrəˈkāSH(ə)n/Submit

noun

the action or process of manufacturing or inventing something.

"the assembly and fabrication of electronic products"

synonyms: invention, concoction, (piece of) fiction, falsification, lie, untruth, falsehood, fib, myth, made-up story, fairy story/tale, cock-and-bull story; More

an invention; **a lie.**

"the story was a complete fabrication"

 

Uh...

Okay.

 

Either way, that makes the PC a liar now.

 

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> Recently I posted about the difference between dragon minions and god demons. Explaining that dragon minions are tied to the dragons power, while god demons follow their master on their own will. There is an assumption that Joko's prison bars where gone when Balthasar died. I do think this is an assumption supporting one theory. We simply don't know how different godlike artifacts functions. We know that Lyssa's mirror was used by Balthasar, after she departed (although there is a theory she stayed behind as well)

 

I had read that post but avoided commenting because it uses massive misnomers (we know what demons are, and a god's servants are not demons; god servants are also not always working with free will, as we see the Forged do not).

 

How Joko got freed is less an assumption and more an educated guess, but that's arguing semantics. However, it is neither when we say that Joko being a fake Joko would just be a repetition of a plot, and that what we have presented is not only better story writing than "another fake Lazarus plot" but is also consistent in the PC's line of thinking, which has always been "my first conclusion is right until I personally see/hear evidence that I am wrong". In this case, their first conclusion was "Joko is still imprisoned because I left him imprisoned, so the Joko running around must be a fake" until they hear Joko's voice.

 

Again, duplicating a voice is nothing ever done by ArenaNet - it could prove to be a red herring by that, but we're once more running into the old situation of "using the same plot again".

 

Also, what **is** an assumption, is the presumption that more godlike artifacts (or better, "divine artifact") exist, despite the repeated lore telling us that almost all divine artifacts were sealed in Arah/Siren's Landing reliquaries, which the Awakened have no access to, or were otherwise sealed or destroyed after being gifted to royal bloodlines. Now, given the lattest, it is possible that Joko had recovered a divine artifact gifted by the Primeval Kings, but given our known lore any such item would have been the Staff of the Mists. The only royalty not known to have been given a divine gift, and does not have a nearby related divine artifact, would be Kryta.

 

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> Keep in mind, I'm not saying that one theory or the other is true or false, but be aware to not take assumptions for facts. Arenanet storytelling has a long history of imposters and disguises. starting with the Undead Lich. I agree it would be lame to do it again, and I actually do hope they didn't. But I also hope that the release of Joko will be explained in more details (if it really is him)

 

Yeah, but every impostor used the same voice actor and same voice tones as their real self before. Khilbron as both Khilbron and Undead Lich spoke the same (which was why the reveal was completely obvious, especially given the manuals telling us "Khilbron caused the Cataclysm which made the undead"). And the same goes for every Mysterious Figure/Stranger/etc. we see throughout the history of GW2. Even Balthazar kept the same voice when pretending to be Lazarus, but the real Lazarus had slightly different tone, IIRC.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Yeah, and I never understood why he's supposed to be cool. It's all just a meme to me. He's popular because he's popular, it doesn't make him charismatic.

 

From player perspective, this is largely due to his writing and voice acting in GW1, where he was comedic relief, but yet still threatening. Kind of like Mad King Thorn in GW1. Both of them had been made much darker, and less funny, in GW2. In Joko's case, this is because he's an actually fought villain rather than purely there for comedic relief. Though I imagine that if we had that Elonian Beyond arc, Joko would have been less comedic. Ah, lost chances.

 

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> Why I think that Joko might have been released by somebody??

>

> Because Joko asked us to release him, I think he knew that killing Balthazar won't release him, and this women that was talking to him, certainly said the same thing as she said to us: "What's worse, the magics Balthazar used to contain him are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will."

>

> So Joko certainly knew it, so why he didn't just say: "Oh leave me here, I'll be fine (*sarcastic*)", if killing Balthazar would release him.

 

There's no certainty that Joko knew. He might have suspected, but he probably didn't know. It's possibly that only the Judge knew, and told Nenah, but neither told Joko. And it's possible that even if he knew, he didn't believe the PC would succeed in either killing Balthazar solo, or in convincing his Awakened army to fight for the PC.

 

> @"otto.5684" said:

> There is a strong possibility it was not Joko at all, or that he is working on behalf of a greater power. There has been multiple hints that Lyssa was involved with Balthazar, and there is a good chance she is the one moving things behind the scenes.

>

> In any case, so far what I have seen from Joko in PoF and LS4 episode 1, he is nothing more than a lame Scoopy Doo villain that will end-up on the chopping board very soon. Nothing remotely interesting.

 

There's nothing to hint and no reason to believe that Lyssa is working behind the scenes of anything, really. Two coincidental lines only for involvement with Balthazar, but beyond that nothing more - not even Lyssa's Mirror can be attributed to Lyssa herself aiding, since Balthazar had raided the gods' reliquaries where they kept magical artifacts.

 

And there's even less implication that Lyssa cares about Tyrian affairs - let alone utilizing Awakened to launch a full scale invasion with Central Tyria.