Updated: Why the new 'redoable' Hearts icon is very vague

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

Throughout my gameplay in the Crystal Desert, I could not figure out why my Hearts, after completed, were resetting (until I took a closer look at the new Hearts icon after I brought it up in conversation in my Guild) .

 

Unbeknownst to me, the 'Infinity Symbol' indicates Hearts you can redo over and over, after a certain 'reset time' goes by. I then thought to myself, "This is a very vague indicator, because players can be mislead to believe the symbol is just part of the art at the bottom of the Heart." (like I did)

 

**EDIT (The link has been updated):** Therefore, I came up with a concept design https://imgur.com/a/4dIjp (to better indicate 'completion' _and_ 'repeatability') that will fix the issue, just an idea to play around with, because the current design does _not_ show up on the Map very well, especially if you are zoomed out when viewing it.

 

**However**, incomplete Hearts will look like they usually do, that way, when an incomplete Heart does change to a 'completed'/'redoable' Heart, players will either **1.** better understand its purpose OR **2.** Question the meaning to the visual art sooner (during gameplay) to a friend or fellow Guild Members.

 

It took me a week (yes, a week) to finally catch on to the redoable Hearts system (only after asking my Guild why my Hearts kept resetting). I thought it was a bug, yet knowing the maps were new, I gave Anet the benefit of the doubt to fix the bug before filing a report, only to find it is _not_ a bug at all!

 

You see? Misinterpretation is the problem here, whether some of you in the comments caught on early or not during your gameplay on the new maps. Unlike some of you, I am a returning player after being gone for months and months, so how was I supposed to know the new redoable Hearts system was intended?

 

Furthermore, I believe the new Heart icon size should be scaled a little bigger, so the Infinity Symbol shows up better. Not only that, I believe (in time) the new 'redoable' Hearts system should be implemented throughout Tyria, not just in the Crystal Desert Map, because it makes no sense to revamp the Hearts system in one part of the game and not the other parts. That way, players are given a reason to revisit a lot of maps that are deserted.

 

One can make the argument, "Well, if we did that, then it would draw players' attention away from the new maps we just implemented." yet why play such a game of favoritism with you guys' own maps, each one your team has spent hours upon hours designing? Don't you want players to enjoy ALL the game, not just a part of it with this new 'redoable' Hearts system?

 

**EDIT:** > @"Witch of Doom.5739" said:

> I don't care what it looks like (although I agree a different color would be good), but PLEASE stop making the repeatable heart necessary for accessing the vendor. BORING and GRINDY.

 

Agreed. If we completed any Heart once, we should have access to any Heart vendor we want. Players who want to repeat Hearts WILL do so for the Karma if/when they need more of it. Accessing vendors after Heart completion is not a problem throughout the rest of the game, and neither should it be the case for the Crystal Desert.

 

Thank you for looking into this.

[Taygus.4571]

It's the inifity for the hero points too.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Great efford. I doubt however if this design will solve it. The icons can be fairly small on the map when zoomed out. I think the only real solution would be a different colour. So if not finished or finished the first time it will be the well known golden colour. After the daily reset it will then turn to the expansion colour (so purple for PoF and green for HoT. This can also be done for heropoints. It would also help players to quickly see to what expansion a map belongs

[Cronos.6532]

non-issue imo

[insanelyapple.2870]

I would just draw infinity symbol bigger instead of totally redesign of the whole icon; also, hearts could use vanilla icon till they're filled finally and ready for daily resets.

 

Color variant could be also helping here - make repeatable hearts orange or red or in any other enough distinguishable from map texture color.

 

And by the way, I would point out that out of all map icons, there are still vanilla karma vendors with barely visible, small yellow-magenta diamonds

 

Edit: as for Hero Points - that_shaman dug in files blue icon variants, around PoF betas time. So we can say guys there are considering such stuff.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Cronos.6532" said:

> non-issue imo

 

I agree this is a non-issue, for the following reasons...repeatable Hearts have been in for a while now and it should be a given that all new Hearts are repeatable, same goes for the Hero Points. Secondly, they already stated that it would take a rework of Core Tyria Hearts to make them repeatable, just because new ones are doesn't mean the old ones can be made to act the same way retroactively.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I would like a change the color of the icon.

 

* Gold: First time/One time completion.

* Azure/Sapphire/Bluish/Silver: Repeatable.

[Gilgamesh VII.8690]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> I would like a change the color of the icon.

>

> * Gold: First time/One time completion.

> * Azure/Sapphire/Bluish/Silver: Repeatable.

 

I would love this as well, colour is far easier to tell then mini infinity symbol that blend onto the map.

 

Also can we have the navigation not point us towards already completed haerts when done the first time.

[Fluffball.8307]

Looks like that sad frog meme.

[Witch of Doom.5739]

I don't care what it looks like (although I agree a different color would be good), but PLEASE stop making the repeatable heart necessary for accessing the vendor. BORING and GRINDY.

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Cronos.6532" said:

> > non-issue imo

>

> I agree this is a non-issue, for the following reasons...repeatable Hearts have been in for a while now and it should be a given that all new Hearts are repeatable, same goes for the Hero Points. Secondly, they already stated that it would take a rework of Core Tyria Hearts to make them repeatable, just because new ones are doesn't mean the old ones can be made to act the same way retroactively.

 

Just because the Infinity Symbol's meaning is known by some does _not_ mean it is known by all. While the design I came up with may not fix the issue 100%, the point is my concept design for redoable Hearts is a lot more distinguishable than the redoable Hearts icon we have now with a rinky dink Infinity Symbol we can hardly see.

 

Furthermore, yes, it _does_ make sense to implement the redoable Hearts system throughout the rest of game, because if we had such a system in the first place, it would not distract players' attention from newly released Maps like we have right now. Players will _still_ play the new Maps. However, what happens after players get bored of any of the newly-released Maps with the new redoable Hearts system? They are going to want to play another Map, right?

 

The proposed idea here is to not only revamp the redoable Hearts system to be more 'visually' distinguishable on our Map, but to implement the redoable Hearts system throughout the entire game, so if players get bored of redoing Hearts in one map, they can go to any other map and redo those Hearts, too, all while _not_ distracting players from any of the new Maps. Why? Because players are going to finish any new content first, so that when they get bored of that eventually, they can redo Hearts for Karma in other areas.

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Witch of Doom.5739" said:

> I don't care what it looks like (although I agree a different color would be good), but PLEASE stop making the repeatable heart necessary for accessing the vendor. BORING and GRINDY.

 

Agreed. If we completed any Heart once, we should have access to any Heart vendor we want. Players who want to repeat Hearts WILL do so for the Karma if/when they need more of it. Accessing vendors after Heart completion is not a problem throughout the rest of the game, and neither should it be the case for the Crystal Desert.

[Ashen.2907]

The design you created, while nicely done, does nothing to address the, "problem," you describe as players not understanding the symbol. Personally, as much as think it is well done, I think your design is less clear, more resembling artistic license in representing a heart than conveying the repeatable nature of the heart.

[Khisanth.2948]

The suggestion looks even more obscure than the existing art. Are you trying to solve the problem or make it worse?

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> The design you created, while nicely done, does nothing to address the, "problem," you describe as players not understanding the symbol. Personally, as much as think it is well done, I think your design is less clear, more resembling artistic license in representing a heart than conveying the repeatable nature of the heart.

 

The link has been updated with a new link to a color-coded concept that shows 'completion' _and_ 'repeatability' all in one, mind you, unlike we have now. Incomplete Hearts will display as they do by default.

 

Furthermore, even if the concept I came up with is not a 100% fix, it is, I argue, more distinguishable. And if the new design is not good enough? Anet can implement green-colored text that briefly explains, "Heart completed yet repeatable for rewards upon daily reset." when players hover their cursor over the icons of redoable Hearts. Green tooltip text, in conjunction with a better redoable Heart design, _will_ help.

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> The suggestion looks even more obscure than the existing art. Are you trying to solve the problem or make it worse?

 

That is why this is called the discussion area, that way, I can improve upon the idea, because yes, I am trying to deliver a better, more distinguishable redoable Hearts system that hopefully gets to one of the developers. I do not see anybody else coming up with a better idea (except Gilgamesh VII.8690 who proposed color coding, which I did incorporate in my new concept).

 

That rinky dink Infinity Symbol clearly fails to explain itself even more so than what I propose. Whatever Anet chooses to do --- be it to scale the size of 'incomplete' and 'redoable Hearts' bigger (to be better seen), or to redesign redoable Hearts entirely (as proposed) --- is their business.

 

That being said, absolutely nothing will get done unless somebody in the community points it out so they _can_ make a better redoable Hearts system. The one we have now is too vague. The purpose of this thread is to get the developers thinking, to get something going on the drawing board.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I don't think the particular symbol matters. There are people who know the infinity symbol who didn't notice it on repeatable hearts after it was added, those who did notice (but didn't know it meant anything), and those who noticed it and misunderstood what it meant. Each of those issues are one-time problems, i.e. once someone explains it to you, you'll never have trouble with it again.

 

Accordingly, I don't think it's worth changing the symbol because it's "vague" and personally I don't think the updated symbol is any less vague; it's just differently vague (for me).

 

If the icons are changed, I'd rather see that

* Uncompleted objectives are easier to notice than completed ones. This is especially awkward with mastery point unlocks and hero challenges.

* Repeatable objectives should also stand out more than completed-one-time equivalents, but less than incomplete ones.

* And yeah, PS, don't make me redo hearts just to access a vendor two days in a row.

 

To me, it's nice when the icons are also intuitive. But that's just icing on the cake (and icing by itself is unfulfilling as a dessert).

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I don't think the particular symbol matters. There are people who know the infinity symbol who didn't notice it on repeatable hearts after it was added, those who did notice (but didn't know it meant anything), and those who noticed it and misunderstood what it meant. Each of those issues are one-time problems, i.e. once someone explains it to you, you'll never have trouble with it again.

>

> Accordingly, I don't think it's worth changing the symbol because it's "vague" and personally I don't think the updated symbol is any less vague; it's just differently vague (for me).

>

> If the icons are changed, I'd rather see that

> * Uncompleted objectives are easier to notice than completed ones. This is especially awkward with mastery point unlocks and hero challenges.

> * Repeatable objectives should also stand out more than completed-one-time equivalents, but less than incomplete ones.

> * And yeah, PS, don't make me redo hearts just to access a vendor two days in a row.

>

> To me, it's nice when the icons are also intuitive. But that's just icing on the cake (and icing by itself is unfulfilling as a dessert).

 

And that is your opinion, yet I will argue until blue in the face Anet should do *something* so there is not even so much that 'first time' having trouble understanding the new redoable Hearts system (or _any_ new system, for that matter).The least Anet can do is color code the Hearts to indicate completion and redoability.

 

Sometimes those 'first times' can turn into really long times. That is what is not being understood by anyone here. I have seen veteran players learn of new mechanics and things they either **1.** did not know existed OR **2.** they did not understand, therefore, never knew of their usage, all because certain things in the game are 'vague' when they should be clear in the first place.

 

You call what I propose icing on the cake that does not make for a fulfilling desert, yet I call it the whole cake, because poorly explained systems are not, and who wants to eat a half-made cake? (to put it nicely). Not me.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Eidolonemesis.5640" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > The suggestion looks even more obscure than the existing art. Are you trying to solve the problem or make it worse?

>

> That is why this is called the discussion area, that way, I can improve upon the idea, because yes, I am trying to deliver a better, more distinguishable redoable Hearts system that hopefully gets to one of the developers. I do not see anybody else coming up with a better idea (except Gilgamesh VII.8690 who proposed color coding, which I did incorporate in my new concept).

>

> That rinky dink Infinity Symbol clearly fails to explain itself even more so than what I propose. Whatever Anet chooses to do --- be it to scale the size of 'incomplete' and 'redoable Hearts' bigger (to be better seen), or to redesign redoable Hearts entirely (as proposed) --- is their business.

>

> That being said, absolutely nothing will get done unless somebody in the community points it out so they _can_ make a better redoable Hearts system. The one we have now is too vague. The purpose of this thread is to get the developers thinking, to get something going on the drawing board.

 

You know what is great for explaining things? Words! However you will have to figure out how to get people to actually read or listen.

 

You assert it is a problem. I don't think it is. A completed heart becomes incomplete. When completed again the award is given again. Then it happens again the next day! It doesn't take much deductive power to figure out that it means the activity is repeatable.

[Nick Lentz.6982]

I'll give you one guess at what the majority of players want, but Anet refuses to do.

>! Stop with the fucking repeatable heart

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> I'll give you one guess at what the majority of players want, but Anet refuses to do.

> >! Stop with the kitten repeatable heart

 

Except Anet seemingly added them due to how many requests were made for hearts to become repeatable.

[Drecien.4508]

This was implemented and listed in the patch notes. Central tyria shouldnt convert because the map is easy enough solo. The HOT/POF maps sometimes need several people to help with, so they gave people incentive to help others in more difficult situations.

[Eidolonemesis.5640]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> You know what is great for explaining things? Words! However you will have to figure out how to get people to actually read or listen.

> You assert it is a problem. I don't think it is. A completed heart becomes incomplete. When completed again the award is given again. Then it happens again the next day! It doesn't take much deductive power to figure out that it means the activity is repeatable.

 

Well that is you, and this is me, and as far the two of us go, we do _not_ speak for everybody in our own opinions. Everyone is different. That is why I _did_ mention the idea of TEXT in the tooltips of Hearts as a way to fix the issue, along with several other ideas that can work along with the idea I proposed. Why? So there is more of a universal fix that suits everyone, for those who are visual (like me), and for those who do not mind reading.

 

Therefore, if text were to be added to the tooltips of redoable Hearts after the first completion, the text should read, "Heart completed yet repeatable for rewards upon daily reset."

 

And no, you have that backwards regarding completed Hearts. A completed Heart remains completed (filled in yellow, or as my idea proposes, filled in green) until the next day when it is reset, whereupon the teeny tiny 'Infinity Symbol' shows up at the very bottom of Hearts after the first completion. However, again, I did not know of that mechanic until I asked my Guild why Hearts reset.

[Nick Lentz.6982]

> @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > I'll give you one guess at what the majority of players want, but Anet refuses to do.

> > >! Stop with the kitten repeatable heart

>

> Except Anet seemingly added them due to how many requests were made for hearts to become repeatable.

 

>! A minority of forum wanderers.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Eidolonemesis.5640" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > You know what is great for explaining things? Words! However you will have to figure out how to get people to actually read or listen.

> > You assert it is a problem. I don't think it is. A completed heart becomes incomplete. When completed again the award is given again. Then it happens again the next day! It doesn't take much deductive power to figure out that it means the activity is repeatable.

>

> Well that is you, and this is me, and as far the two of us go, we do _not_ speak for everybody in our own opinions. Everyone is different. That is why I _did_ mention the idea of TEXT in the tooltips of Hearts as a way to fix the issue, along with several other ideas that can work along with the idea I proposed. Why? So there is more of a universal fix that suits everyone, for those who are visual (like me), and for those who do not mind reading.

>

> Therefore, if text were to be added to the tooltips of redoable Hearts after the first completion, the text should read, "Heart completed yet repeatable for rewards upon daily reset."

>

> And no, you have that backwards regarding completed Hearts. A completed Heart remains completed (filled in yellow, or as my idea proposes, filled in green) until the next day when it is reset, whereupon the teeny tiny 'Infinity Symbol' shows up at the very bottom of Hearts after the first completion. However, again, I did not know of that mechanic until I asked my Guild why Hearts reset.

 

They've been around since Ember Bay so there are a couple of options 1) you are new 2) you never revisit any map with the same character as well as always finishing a map within a single day 3) you are simply not paying attention

 

The infinity symbol is also less of an indicator that it can be repeated and more of an indicator that the heart has already been completed once for the purpose of map completion.