What if scourge shades could be cc'd and killed

[Shaogin.2679]

I actually thinking removing the f-skill pulses from the Scourge himself and just limiting it to the Shade would be a pretty reasonable change. Some tweeking on Shade uptime may be necessary, but it could be a healthy change for the Scourge.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> None of them need to be instant. Necro has never had or needed instant cast fears, corrupts, or barriers, and if that instant cast AoE corruption is so important then you can spec into Spiteful Spirit.

 

Necro has always had instant cast Fear, the corrupt on F2 is from a trait and not the skill itself and barrier from Sand Shroud most definitely needs to be instant considering you have always been able to pop shrouds instantly and the barrier from Sand Shroud is supposed to be a substitute for that.

 

I am also going to point out that the entire gimmick of the old proccmancer build was you could press 1 button and get a bunch of instant cast effects to counter-pressure when you were being locked down by cc spam.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @Nilkemia.8507

> > I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

> What they should be asking for is better options to deal with that, then. Then again, considering all they were given was a nearly worthless utility and a reaper shoud leap, seems ArenaNet couldn't care less either. And, with nearly everyone else calling for their immediate nerfing now (while usually forgetting a few other broken specs), I can't blame them too much. At least one of those ranged specs (Deadeye, the only one with decent rifle skills) deserves it too.

 

They have plenty of options to deal with ranged deeps sniping them, it's just most scourges don't bother to change their build... They'd rather just hope nobody on the other team is playing ranged assassin; and if they are, rely on their FB support and/or mobile assassin teammates to deal with the threat for them.

[Nilkemia.8507]

No, no they don't, unless your idea of "plenty" is 3 or 4.

[sephiroth.4217]

It would be great to CC and kill shades...

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > The main issue with putting cast times on the Shade skills is that 3/4 of those absolutely need to be instant cast for the Scourge to have any defense. Only the F2 can actually still be usable with a cast time.

> >

> > F5, I could see a slight change to. Increase total time by 1 second, but damage/condition pulses don't happen until 1 second after the cast. Barrier still must be immediate, though.

>

> None of them need to be instant. Necro has never had or needed instant cast fears, corrupts, or barriers, and if that instant cast AoE corruption is so important then you can spec into Spiteful Spirit.

 

You know, all this time, I thought you actually played Necro. Like, at all. I guess I was wrong.

 

Instant-cast Barriers are 100% necessary, since Scourge has nothing else for defense. Instant cast Fear is something Core Necro has as well.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > The main issue with putting cast times on the Shade skills is that 3/4 of those absolutely need to be instant cast for the Scourge to have any defense. Only the F2 can actually still be usable with a cast time.

> > >

> > > F5, I could see a slight change to. Increase total time by 1 second, but damage/condition pulses don't happen until 1 second after the cast. Barrier still must be immediate, though.

> >

> > None of them need to be instant. Necro has never had or needed instant cast fears, corrupts, or barriers, and if that instant cast AoE corruption is so important then you can spec into Spiteful Spirit.

>

> You know, all this time, I thought you actually played Necro. Like, at all. I guess I was wrong.

>

> Instant-cast Barriers are 100% necessary, since Scourge has nothing else for defense. Instant cast Fear is something Core Necro has as well.

 

Core necro had a _single target_ fear on a 20 second base cooldown. Compared to Scourge's 300 radius AoE fear on a 15 second base cooldown.

 

And while yes Reaper and Core can enter shroud instantly (and thus while CC'ed) core and reaper cannot go about using shroud skills while stunned. Scourge can not just pop barriers while CC'ed, it can DPS, CC, and debuff everything in it's vicinity whiled stunned. This means there is basically no way for a melee or quasi melee class to engage a scourge at all.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

You do that, then you wreck Anet's idea of "A support class", but in actuality if you do that, you wreck both support aspect of it and their damage out put, on top of, Obstructed, Obstructed, Obstructed, Obstructed, Obstructed. So take their dps away, their support ability, and still with no mobility.. Well I have a better idea:

 

- Remove guardians healing ability

- Remove guardians condition cleans ability

- Remove wall of reflection

- Remove all their blocks and invulnerable

- Cut their hp in half

 

There, that is a better idea.

 

People still can't fathom getting on ranged classes to deal with scourge.. it's laughable actually.

 

Joking aside, people need to be very very careful what they ask for, right now, Scourges have longer ticking torment which is killing players faster. Which of course could be easily predicted when you asked to remove their burstiness. Condition and physical damage has to be equal meaning condition damage must be equal over time. So the more you nerf the damage, the longer you draw out the ticks. Players are only shooting themselves in the foot.

[Loboling.5293]

Wouldn't that make them almost as bad as Renegade? They still have huge condi bombs, but they can be displaced. I'd rather see cast times on shade abilities. But, as an ironic nerf, it would fit. I've actually stopped doing my daily even, pvp is quite a mess.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Ragion.2831" said:

> Revenant isnt balanced with the same logic as other classes.

 

No class is balanced within the same logic....lel

[jihm.2315]

scourge is the reason i quit pvp and play fractals/wvw instead better flip camps solo that play with this kitten

[Crinn.7864]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> People still can't fathom getting on ranged classes to deal with scourge.. it's laughable actually.

 

Here is the list of ranged classes capable of dealing with Scourge:

1) LB/staff druid

2) ??????

 

All other ranged classes either get hardcountered by the rest of the meta, or lack the raw power burst to actually down a half competent Scourge. Lets not forget that Scourge itself is a ranged class capable of applying it's full DPS at 900 range, with staff hitting out to 1200.

 

[Genesis.5169]

I agreed with that before the condition _*cough*_ _necro_ i mean condition nerf.

 

This is just a crusade to take away any form a viability necro's have left you all should be ashamed instead of learning to play your just gonna come to the forums and cry in hopes for it to be nerfed? Learn the damn game, not every class is meant to be face rolled some times you need to change strategies sometimes you might even need to changes some skills on the left side of your bar.

 

Leave condition classes alone no amount of nerfing is going to solve the issues that are in this thread which is a lack of skill, necros cannot spam anything they are slaves to there own life force if you understand that and bait out there shrouds they are easy if you refuse to wait and rush them down you will die and YOU DESERVE THAT DEATH.

 

I have no doubt in my mind, you people will not stop until there are no more condition classes left in the game because at them moment there are only 2 of them out of 9.

 

Just 2 and one of them IS ONLY GOOD FOR small scale fights mainly roaming and have huge disadvantages in larger scales fights in WvW.

 

[Griever.8150]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> @Nilkemia.8507

> I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

 

Sure, play ranged to counter Scourge.

 

But you aren't allowed to play P/P Thief, Rifle Deadeye, Soulbeast, Dragon Hunter, any ranged Warrior build or Fresh Air Ele (unless your name is Phantaram) and i pass a bunch in ranked as you automatically have your games ruined by kids who start throwing temper tantrums in chat as soon as they see anyone with a "non-meta" build on their team.

 

So yeah sure, just play ranged to counter Scourges.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Griever.8150" said:

> > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @Nilkemia.8507

> > I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

>

> Sure, play ranged to counter Scourge.

>

> But you aren't allowed to play P/P Thief, Rifle Deadeye, Soulbeast, Dragon Hunter, any ranged Warrior build or Fresh Air Ele (unless your name is Phantaram) and i pass a bunch in ranked as you automatically have your games ruined by kids who start throwing temper tantrums in chat as soon as they see anyone with a "non-meta" build on their team.

>

> So yeah sure, just play ranged to counter Scourges.

 

Wait so you don't play what specs you want for fear of a 13 year old boy crying in chat in a video game?

Okay.

 

You do that ima play specs that give me wins in my games, people stop crying with the score is our favor.

[Griever.8150]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Griever.8150" said:

> > > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > > @Nilkemia.8507

> > > I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

> >

> > Sure, play ranged to counter Scourge.

> >

> > But you aren't allowed to play P/P Thief, Rifle Deadeye, Soulbeast, Dragon Hunter, any ranged Warrior build or Fresh Air Ele (unless your name is Phantaram) and i pass a bunch in ranked as you automatically have your games ruined by kids who start throwing temper tantrums in chat as soon as they see anyone with a "non-meta" build on their team.

> >

> > So yeah sure, just play ranged to counter Scourges.

>

> Wait so you don't play what specs you want for fear of a 13 year old boy crying in chat in a video game?

> Okay.

>

> You do that ima play specs that give me wins in my games, people stop crying with the score is our favor.

 

You didn't get me entirely right. What ragers say in chat is irrelevant.

 

But the fact that they even start spending time raging, that their focus is taken off the game due to me playing something "off-meta" is detrimental to my chances of winning.

 

It triggers defeatism in these people so they stop trying faster simply because they just can't seem to be able to imagine to win if they don't think they're optimal.

 

It would make for an interesting case of study in psychology really.

[Ragion.2831]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Ragion.2831" said:

> > Revenant isnt balanced with the same logic as other classes.

>

> No class is balanced within the same logic....lel

 

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Ragion.2831" said:

> > Revenant isnt balanced with the same logic as other classes.

>

> No class is balanced within the same logic....lel

 

Actually some are, besides im not talking about multiple classes being designed with the same logic. Im talking about how some skills and traits are justified on classes

[Bast.7253]

You just need the right counter for scourge. Have a ranger, good deadeye, or a power shatter mes 100 to 0 them before they can spam their 1020202 fears and condis and you’ll be fine.

 

It is pretty obnoxious playing wvw and having 10 necrosis charging at you full speed kamikaze-ing an entire group down though.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> You just need the right counter for scourge. Have a ranger, good deadeye, or a power shatter mes 100 to 0 them before they can spam their 1020202 fears and condis and you’ll be fine.

>

> It is pretty obnoxious playing wvw and having 10 necrosis charging at you full speed kamikaze-ing an entire group down though.

 

I mean sure, you could just pick up a class you don't like and play a playstyle you hate, but being forced to do that is not good balance in a game like this. This isn't league of legends where teams take turns picking characters and part of the strategy is trying to pick good counters for your opponents and a solid team comp. The game rendomly groups you with others for a team and people play whatever class you enjoy. Every class should be viable, and any one should not force you to play a very narrow playstyle just because they will wipe the floor with you if you play anything else. Nothing completely shuts down melee like scourge. Spellbreaker is pure melee, but you can still be close to them. They have to focus you to hurt you, you can see what they're doing and dodge/block/stunbreak to avoid it.

 

Even mirage is not a straight up middle finger to melee; because it just dumpsters you no matter where you are or what you're playing.

[jihm.2315]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> You just need the right counter for scourge. Have a ranger, good deadeye, or a power shatter mes 100 to 0 them before they can spam their 1020202 fears and condis and you’ll be fine.

>

> It is pretty obnoxious playing wvw and having 10 necrosis charging at you full speed kamikaze-ing an entire group down though.

 

ranger does not counter the scourge in a team fight only in 1vs1

[Klaeljanus.7695]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > People still can't fathom getting on ranged classes to deal with scourge.. it's laughable actually.

>

> Here is the list of ranged classes capable of dealing with Scourge:

> 1) LB/staff druid

> 2) ??????

>

> All other ranged classes either get hardcountered by the rest of the meta, or lack the raw power burst to actually down a half competent Scourge. Lets not forget that Scourge itself is a ranged class capable of applying it's full DPS at 900 range, with staff hitting out to 1200.

>

 

1) Lol counting staff as a viable weapon. Staff is not, and has never been a viable weapon on necro. The only bigger joke than staff on necro is people who think staff on necro is a threat.

2) Not counting Firebrand and dragonhunter as a viable specs that can very much destroy scourge.

3) Not counting Deadeye, which just walks all over scourge. Scourge has literally no defence against a Deadeye. Has no reveals, has no targetable ranged AoEs that can crest any kind of potential obstable of any sort(including invisible anthills)

 

Just because you can't rely on Necro to be a free, guaranteed kill anymore does not mean they are OP.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Klaeljanus.7695" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > People still can't fathom getting on ranged classes to deal with scourge.. it's laughable actually.

> >

> > Here is the list of ranged classes capable of dealing with Scourge:

> > 1) LB/staff druid

> > 2) ??????

> >

> > All other ranged classes either get hardcountered by the rest of the meta, or lack the raw power burst to actually down a half competent Scourge. Lets not forget that Scourge itself is a ranged class capable of applying it's full DPS at 900 range, with staff hitting out to 1200.

> >

>

> 1) Lol counting staff as a viable weapon. Staff is not, and has never been a viable weapon on necro. The only bigger joke than staff on necro is people who think staff on necro is a threat.

> 2) Not counting Firebrand and dragonhunter as a viable specs that can very much destroy scourge.

> 3) Not counting Deadeye, which just walks all over scourge. Scourge has literally no defence against a Deadeye. Has no reveals, has no targetable ranged AoEs that can crest any kind of potential obstable of any sort(including invisible anthills)

>

> Just because you can't rely on Necro to be a free, guaranteed kill anymore does not mean they are OP.

 

Staff is used on meta Scourge, and while staff is certainly not the most potent of necro weapons, Scourge doesn't really have any better options for their second weaponset.

 

As for saying that deadeye and guardians can counter scourge, sure those classes might win a 1v1 agianst scourge, but scourge is not a 1v1 class and will never rotate into a 1v1. In a teamfight a deadeye will just get eaten, and DH are too easy to counterpressure for them to be a threat to a Scourge in a teamfight.

 

[zealex.9410]

Isnt that like the biggest reason why renegade is bad in pvp?

[flog.3485]

We should be able to CC a shade so that its pulsing effect is temporarily disabled. And have some split PvE/PvP balance to dertermine how much CC you need to apply.

 

I would also suggest that a scourge can apply barrier or any other trait related skill (that is added by devs) to shades to protect/regen its CC bar.

 

Otherwise it might just be simpler to heavily reduce the AoE radius (was thinking of a radius similar to jaunt for mesmers) of these shades since a scourge can already summon three of those and since these shades have a permanent AoE effect.

 

I personally don't mind shades with a big AoE but if it has it then you should be able to summon only one shade at a time with some way to counter it. The thing is, the base radius of a normal shade is just too high imo.

 

Of course these changes need to go hand in hand with some sort of nerfs to firebrand.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> Renegade gets to spend energy and it's ability to use weapon skills to put out char summons which die in seconds through ambient damage without even being focused. Even before they die they are cc'd by random aoe effects and do absolutely nothing. This is considered balanced, so why can't we kill and cc scourge shades in the same way?

>

> You know, for counterplay.

 

Great idea!