Better balance between gem content and in-game content

[Deihnyx.6318]

Hello,

 

Now before anyone says anything about it, I can be considered a "whale" as I usually get most items available on the gemstore and spent -way too much- on keys. I perfectly understand and agree that a game like that has to be financed, and I've helped my fair share.

However there is an argument that keeps coming up for many people who may not have the funds for it. The balance between gemstore content and in game content as updates roll out is getting a bit unhealthy.

 

For example, last week was introduced a new garden activity in your home instance. There are 3 nodes available, although you can only buy 2 (for now). I'm assuming that like so many other things the third node will be available to buy at some point.

Why not instead making that third node a collection reward to retrieve in game?

 

Same with the mounts. Yes premiums mounts are expensive and should stay premium, but how about giving out a few adoptions licenses as rewards for something in game related? Like a collection of some sort?

 

Why don't you bring more incentives to play your game and have a taste of what gem content feels like?

Giving 400 Gems as reward for reaching an AP milestone was one of these nice incentives, but it really needs to be extended now.

[Reynarth.4819]

I agree, it would be great to have some collections where you can get mount licenses or other gem items.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

There's a handful of things that are gemshop only; most of the content is included in the expansion, in "side stories, or in Living World.

 

It's nothing unusual for the gem shop to offer cosmetics.

* There aren't yet any Mountfits available in-game

* Until recently there was only a single Outfit obtainable in game. (Plus only one of those formerly-town-clothes outfits are available for less than a gold. The rest but-for-one are 150-800 gold each on the TP, equivalent to ~600-3200 gems each. The exception is 40-50g, i.e. ~200 gems.)

* There is only one glider available in game, with the exception of those unlocked with Legendary Backs. All the rest are unlocked via gem shop or special expansion offers.

 

The 'content' that is gemshop is limited to a couple of minor quests.

 

****

I'd love to see 4-dye-channel Mountfits available via in-game content, but I'm not expecting to; it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge for skins.

(I do think ANet messed up their implementation, by setting our expectations of costs to be far below 2k/mountfit, but that's a completely separate concern.)

[Wanze.8410]

basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> There's a handful of things that are gemshop only; most of the content is included in the expansion, in "side stories, or in Living World.

>

> It's nothing unusual for the gem shop to offer cosmetics.

> * There aren't yet any Mountfits available in-game

> * Until recently there was only a single Outfit obtainable in game. (Plus only one of those formerly-town-clothes outfits are available for less than a gold. The rest but-for-one are 150-800 gold each on the TP, equivalent to ~600-3200 gems each. The exception is 40-50g, i.e. ~200 gems.)

> * There is only one glider available in game, with the exception of those unlocked with Legendary Backs. All the rest are unlocked via gem shop or special expansion offers.

>

> The 'content' that is gemshop is limited to a couple of minor quests.

>

> ****

> I'd love to see 4-dye-channel Mountfits available via in-game content, but I'm not expecting to; it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge for skins.

> (I do think ANet messed up their implementation, by setting our expectations of costs to be far below 2k/mountfit, but that's a completely separate concern.)

 

I didn't say it was unreasonable to charge for skins, only that the amount of "in-game" content updates versus gemstore content is unbalanced.

Like, again, they can release as many premium skins as they want, but ultimately a game is meant to be played. For most things released today, you can of course farm gold to get them, but the "journey" isn't there anymore. It's either you farm gold or you pay for it.

 

At least for the gliders we had long term goals to work on to get some in game skins. Ad Infinitum was released pretty early on, and had a "prestige" value (and then the Ascension/Warbringer), which the gryphon doesn't really have.

 

The only prestige item that was released in game recently was ... a kitten chair :D

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > There's a handful of things that are gemshop only; most of the content is included in the expansion, in "side stories, or in Living World.

> >

> > It's nothing unusual for the gem shop to offer cosmetics.

> > * There aren't yet any Mountfits available in-game

> > * Until recently there was only a single Outfit obtainable in game. (Plus only one of those formerly-town-clothes outfits are available for less than a gold. The rest but-for-one are 150-800 gold each on the TP, equivalent to ~600-3200 gems each. The exception is 40-50g, i.e. ~200 gems.)

> > * There is only one glider available in game, with the exception of those unlocked with Legendary Backs. All the rest are unlocked via gem shop or special expansion offers.

> >

> > The 'content' that is gemshop is limited to a couple of minor quests.

> >

> > ****

> > I'd love to see 4-dye-channel Mountfits available via in-game content, but I'm not expecting to; it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge for skins.

> > (I do think ANet messed up their implementation, by setting our expectations of costs to be far below 2k/mountfit, but that's a completely separate concern.)

>

> I didn't say it was unreasonable to charge for skins, only that the amount of "in-game" content updates versus gemstore content is unbalanced.

> Like, again, they can release as many premium skins as they want, but ultimately a game is meant to be played. For most things released today, you can of course farm gold to get them, but the "journey" isn't there anymore. It's either you farm gold or you pay for it.

>

> At least for the gliders we've had long term goals to work on to get some in game skins. Ad Infinitum was released pretty early on, and had a "prestige" value, which the gryphon doesn't really have.

>

> The only prestige item that was released in game recently was ... a kitten chair :D

 

And I said that I don't think the **amount** of gemstore "content" is tiny. It's a couple of minor quests, including expanding the seeds for the garden plot and a couple associated with minis. The vast majority of **content** is in the game itself.

 

Again, there's no in-game content to get outfits (just one for candy corn and never any since). The only gliders released in-game are associated with legendaries, extremely involved, long-term collections (and much more costly than any gem shop item). And so sure, no in-game content for Mountfits either — I don't think that's really surprising.

 

And, per our preference, ANet hasn't released any _armor sets_ through the gem shop; every single one of them has been in-game. (With weapons, it's more complicated: plenty of skins available only via collections, or only via gems, or only via in-game currency of some sort, or only via RNG.)

 

And finally, all of the above (that either of us have mentioned) are examples of skins unlocks, which isn't 'content' by itself.

 

Again, I'm all in favor of seeing more skins available via in-game quests like Caladbolg Restored. I'd love to unlock Mountfits or Gliders that way. But I think it's fine if that never happens, too.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> Hello,

>

> Now before anyone says anything about it, I can be considered a "whale" as I usually get most items available on the gemstore and spent -way too much- on keys. I perfectly understand and agree that a game like that has to be financed, and I've helped my fair share.

> However there is an argument that keeps coming up for many people who may not have the funds for it. The balance between gemstore content and in game content as updates roll out is getting a bit unhealthy.

>

> For example, last week was introduced a new garden activity in your home instance. There are 3 nodes available, although you can only buy 2 (for now). I'm assuming that like so many other things the third node will be available to buy at some point.

> Why not instead making that third node a collection reward to retrieve in game?

>

> Same with the mounts. Yes premiums mounts are expensive and should stay premium, but how about giving out a few adoptions licenses as rewards for something in game related? Like a collection of some sort?

>

> Why don't you bring more incentives to play your game and have a taste of what gem content feels like?

> Giving 400 Gems as reward for reaching an AP milestone was one of these nice incentives, but it really needs to be extended now.

 

Players can play the game and earn gold to exchange for gems. That means players can buy everything off the gem store for $0 just by participating. We don’t need more incentives than that.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > Hello,

> >

> > Now before anyone says anything about it, I can be considered a "whale" as I usually get most items available on the gemstore and spent -way too much- on keys. I perfectly understand and agree that a game like that has to be financed, and I've helped my fair share.

> > However there is an argument that keeps coming up for many people who may not have the funds for it. The balance between gemstore content and in game content as updates roll out is getting a bit unhealthy.

> >

> > For example, last week was introduced a new garden activity in your home instance. There are 3 nodes available, although you can only buy 2 (for now). I'm assuming that like so many other things the third node will be available to buy at some point.

> > Why not instead making that third node a collection reward to retrieve in game?

> >

> > Same with the mounts. Yes premiums mounts are expensive and should stay premium, but how about giving out a few adoptions licenses as rewards for something in game related? Like a collection of some sort?

> >

> > Why don't you bring more incentives to play your game and have a taste of what gem content feels like?

> > Giving 400 Gems as reward for reaching an AP milestone was one of these nice incentives, but it really needs to be extended now.

>

> Players can play the game and earn gold to exchange for gems. That means players can buy everything off the gem store for $0 just by participating. We don’t need more incentives than that.

 

Yes you can gold farm just like you can credit card farm. It's not the point the point I'm trying to make though.

It's basically the same debate between legendary gen 1 and 2.1 (not the later legendaries gen 2). Some are about farming, some are about the "journey". And right now, we're tending towards a situation where everything is about farming once again.

[Shaaba.5672]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

 

You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

[kharmin.7683]

I have a finite amount of time that I can dedicate to playing GW2 and would really prefer to obtain items in-game rather than spend my online time simply farming. YMMV

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Shaaba.5672" said:

> > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

>

> You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

 

if you find all game content boring, you shouldnt be playing this game in the first place

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> Hello,

>

> Now before anyone says anything about it, I can be considered a "whale" as I usually get most items available on the gemstore and spent -way too much- on keys. I perfectly understand and agree that a game like that has to be financed, and I've helped my fair share.

> However there is an argument that keeps coming up for many people who may not have the funds for it. The balance between gemstore content and in game content as updates roll out is getting a bit unhealthy.

>

> For example, last week was introduced a new garden activity in your home instance. There are 3 nodes available, although you can only buy 2 (for now). I'm assuming that like so many other things the third node will be available to buy at some point.

> Why not instead making that third node a collection reward to retrieve in game?

>

> Same with the mounts. Yes premiums mounts are expensive and should stay premium, but how about giving out a few adoptions licenses as rewards for something in game related? Like a collection of some sort?

>

> Why don't you bring more incentives to play your game and have a taste of what gem content feels like?

> Giving 400 Gems as reward for reaching an AP milestone was one of these nice incentives, but it really needs to be extended now.

 

I don't get this request ... Anet already makes the game so that playing it allows people a taste for what gem content feels like. I mean, just handing out GS items ingame makes little to no sense if the expectation is already set that you need to buy GS loot through the various methods possible.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Shaaba.5672" said:

> > > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

> >

> > You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

>

> if you find all game content boring, you shouldnt be playing this game in the first place

 

Misrepresented proposition.

What they said is the amount of farming required to convert is unsatisfying and boring. That's really different from the statement "all game content is boring".

 

If it's all about farming and some people are bored by that, it's even more reasons to bring new incentives to play the game, so people can get more into it and ultimately spend more money. If you're bored by a game, why would you waste money into it?

 

Maybe some people feel satisfying doing the same meta for gold to get literally everything from the gemstore. Sure that's possible, and certainly some people will enjoy it. But this game is much richer and there are some aspects of the game that would really need new incentives. WvW for example, there is no incentive to win a tier, and so you get people purposely telling you to get out of their map so they can get outnumbered... = farming again.

 

Collections were a great concept when they were introduced. They offer diversity. Diversity isn't for everyone. But it's better to have choice. You buy from TP, you farm gold, you complete collections... etc, it all have to be balanced.

[Ayakaru.6583]

You know, i would agree agree on the aspect there should be at least one bundle of mount skins available in game. On the same level of commitment as either the Ad Infinitum or the pvp glider.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Just to make sure, I am against involving cash shop items to be mixed with non cash shop items. So a third garden plot if available in free game, should not require a gemstone purchase to be obtainable. Something that requires one to play the game should be seperated from things you can buy (although I’m ok with the opposite where you can farm for bl keys.

So.......

I believe that the cash shop is making a lot more then people imagine. I believe that Mo is right when he is saying it pays for the living world.

There are mount skins available in game without spending money. You get it when you buy the PoF expansion. It is the default skin. So it is allready available. I’m not against more skins available by just playing the game, but I also want to stress out that you can buy gems with gold. And you can farm black lion keys. Maybe get mountskins on the bl keys.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > @"Shaaba.5672" said:

> > > > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > > basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

> > >

> > > You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

> >

> > if you find all game content boring, you shouldnt be playing this game in the first place

>

> Misrepresented proposition.

> What they said is the amount of farming required to convert is unsatisfying and boring. That's really different from the statement "all game content is boring".

>

> If it's all about farming and some people are bored by that, it's even more reasons to bring new incentives to play the game, so people can get more into it and ultimately spend more money. If you're bored by a game, why would you waste money into it?

>

> Maybe some people feel satisfying doing the same meta for gold to get literally everything from the gemstore. Sure that's possible, and certainly some people will enjoy it. But this game is much richer and there are some aspects of the game that would really need new incentives. WvW for example, there is no incentive to win a tier, and so you get people purposely telling you to get out of their map so they can get outnumbered... = farming again.

>

> Collections were a great concept when they were introduced. They offer diversity. Diversity isn't for everyone. But it's better to have choice. You buy from TP, you farm gold, you complete collections... etc, it all have to be balanced.

 

You dont need to farm certain aspects of the game to earn gold, as I said, nearly any game content rewards you with gold or tradeable mats, so its your own choice, which content you play and you are not required to play content that you find boring or unsatisfying.

[blambidy.3216]

I agree. I wish that all items can be obtained like how we got the griffin. A gold grind. A hunt. And a kill list. I don’t think that all items should be like that but some type of task to get it. And if arenanet needs funds for it. Then gold should be considered just like griffin cost 250 gold. So a certain amount for an item should be somewhat the same way.

 

Things like costume skins and glider skins would also be awesome to obtain somehow in game. How? Idk but it would be awesome if there was a way to obtain them besides just gems. Now if people want to pay gems gladly go ahead. But sometimes I like the journey to get it. And I kno you can just gold grind then convert to gems but I sometimes want a hunt.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> I have a finite amount of time that I can dedicate to playing GW2 and would really prefer to obtain items in-game rather than spend my online time simply farming. YMMV

 

Why play at all then?

I mean if that's your excuse, why even bother?

I mean if you don't play the game, but just buy everything, what's the point?

What's the achievement? A lot of people quit because GW2 has no proper goals. Because everything is a gold sink.

And they're not wrong. The game has a lot of stuff to do, but most of the time, you finish it, and there's really nothing there.

I mean i just finished Binding of Ipos, and i love the skin. But it really doesn't feel like an accomplishment. I don't feel nearly as good about it as from getting the Bloodstone Visage, or the Mistwild sword. Because those show i did something, a friend of mine that started Binding of Ipos a few days before i did, but then got behind me (i finished the precursor first) finished it like a day before i did, by throwing money at it. It kind of tarnishes the game.

The Griffon was great and i enjoyed getting it, getting the eggs and stuff was awesome, and would have been great if we could have 10x those eggs, in hard to get places all over Tyria that require knowing the game. That would have been awesome! But no, we got a bit of awesomeness, and a 250g paywall.

 

Devs just got to a point that they skimp a lot with the in-game rewards, not even talking about in-game gliders and mount skins, i mean overall, just look at PoF maps, they're almost empty because there's basically nothing to keep people there! Players that buy PoF in 2-3 months will be in for a big ass disappointment because they will barely have anyone to play with, especially for the bounties and stuff.

And not happy with that, what little else is there is usually based on GOLD sinks. I mean look at when they added the new legendaries. The promise was a big epic journey to get a precursor.

What was delivered was a tiny epic journey followed by huge material sinks, because the devs wanted to "keep the cost equivalent to buying it". Which means that to this day it's still way more worth it to just buy a precursor on the TP than crafting it.

The measure should be, **how long will this content keep players engaged**, but it isn't. It's **how much gold will they need to grind on old content, that pays well, to enjoy this content for a moment**.

 

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I think the gem shop would be better served to only sell things that are directly related to the account or character enhancement like overall storage. The rest of the stuff (including all skins and BL keys) should be found in game. I don't think it's reasonable to argue gems can be bought with gold therefore everything can be had "in game". I think if you were to poll every single player and give them only 2 options:

 

1) Complete various quests and tasks that rewards items

2) Do repetitive tasks (farming for gold) to buy items

 

I think it's pretty clear where the vast majority if not all the votes would lay.

[AliamRationem.5172]

 

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > > @"Shaaba.5672" said:

> > > > > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > > > basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

> > > >

> > > > You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

> > >

> > > if you find all game content boring, you shouldnt be playing this game in the first place

> >

> > Misrepresented proposition.

> > What they said is the amount of farming required to convert is unsatisfying and boring. That's really different from the statement "all game content is boring".

> >

> > If it's all about farming and some people are bored by that, it's even more reasons to bring new incentives to play the game, so people can get more into it and ultimately spend more money. If you're bored by a game, why would you waste money into it?

> >

> > Maybe some people feel satisfying doing the same meta for gold to get literally everything from the gemstore. Sure that's possible, and certainly some people will enjoy it. But this game is much richer and there are some aspects of the game that would really need new incentives. WvW for example, there is no incentive to win a tier, and so you get people purposely telling you to get out of their map so they can get outnumbered... = farming again.

> >

> > Collections were a great concept when they were introduced. They offer diversity. Diversity isn't for everyone. But it's better to have choice. You buy from TP, you farm gold, you complete collections... etc, it all have to be balanced.

>

> You dont need to farm certain aspects of the game to earn gold, as I said, nearly any game content rewards you with gold or tradeable mats, so its your own choice, which content you play and you are not required to play content that you find boring or unsatisfying.

 

While I like having the option of farming gold and converting it to gems (as opposed to having to always pay cash), I don't like the idea that providing virtually nothing in the way of cosmetic items is somehow justified by the fact that I can farm gold and convert to gems. If that were the case, why would anyone bother to craft a legendary? Is it simply to save gold?

 

I will continue to support GW2 with cash purchases for as long as I play the game. However, when I start to tire of this game it's always for the same reason: There's little I find appealing to work toward. That's why I've often wished GW2 were subscription based, so that virtually all of the items they produce would be earned by actually playing the game rather than simply farming gold to convert to gems.

[mauried.5608]

Why isnt it reasonable to argue that gems can be bought with gold?

Just about everything a player does in the game gives some kind of reward which can be converted into gold.

The entire purpose of an MMO from the devs perspective is to keep the players playing for as long as possible, and that means GRIND, tons of it.

GW2 is one of the few MMOs that give you a reward just for logging on.

The dailies give you 2G for less than 20 mins of playing, you can get at least 6G just for doing the AB meta which takes at most 20 mins, its usually much less.

Seems to be to many ppl who just want gold for doing nothing.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> Why isnt it reasonable to argue that gems can be bought with gold?

> Just about everything a player does in the game gives some kind of reward which can be converted into gold.

> The entire purpose of an MMO from the devs perspective is to keep the players playing for as long as possible, and that means GRIND, tons of it.

> GW2 is one of the few MMOs that give you a reward just for logging on.

> The dailies give you 2G for less than 20 mins of playing, you can get at least 6G just for doing the AB meta which takes at most 20 mins, its usually much less.

> Seems to be to many ppl who just want gold for doing nothing.

>

>

 

It isn't unreasonable to observe that converting gold to gems is a perfectly viable way of acquiring cash shop items. But it does miss the point.

 

Ask yourself why did anyone ever craft a gen. 1 legendary? Was it always just a calculation of which method of acquiring it was cheaper? Or do you suppose it's possible that some players might actually enjoy the process and the feeling of having something worthwhile to work toward for a time?

 

To put it another way, you have a choice: You can farm SW until your eyes bleed, or you can do this collection that will take you all over the world and into various game modes and activities. What matters is not which option you would choose, but whether or not you observe a difference between the two. It is not simply the end product that matters. How you acquire it also matters.

 

This matters to me because I am one of those people who both purchases items from the cash shop and goes through the process of crafting legendary weapons. The process keeps me motivated. It keeps me playing. And ultimately, that's also what keeps me paying.

 

What I'm saying is that there's a balance to be struck here. You can't simply condense the entire equation down to hours spent farming gold. Take that logic to the extreme and you lose the cash from players like myself because, as I said, I'm willing to pay cash to support this game only so long as I feel motivated to play it. I don't care about farming gold. I just want worthwhile rewards to work toward by actually playing GW2 - not just from playing "Gold Farm 2".

 

Does that make sense?

[GreyWolf.8670]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Shaaba.5672" said:

> > > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > basically any content gives you some kind of gold reward or materials/items you can sell for gold, which can be used to exchange into gems and gemstore items

> >

> > You're not wrong, it's just really unsatisfying and boring.

>

> if you find all game content boring, you shouldnt be playing this game in the first place

 

Wit the pitiful amount of gold this game gives you for playing it's ridiculous to recommend using that to exchange for gems. The game needs more included rewards. It's not a freeminum game.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

It's been a sad fall from, "Is it fun?" https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

to pixelated skins being considered "content."

[mauried.5608]

This entire thread basically boils down to this .

I want something thats only available in the gem store, but I dont want to buy gems to get it , and I dont want to convert gold into gems to get it.

Answer thats easy , DONT get it.

Theres nothing in the gem store thats needed to play the game.