Third Party DPS/Gear Checkers Green Light Toxicity

[Tolmos.8395]

Join a guild.

 

I know that's an overused suggestion, but here's the reality of the situation: GW2's fractal and raiding communities are somewhat infamous. I took a few year hiatus from the game, and in every other MMO I tried out people would bring the fractal/raiding community in GW2 up as a cautionary tale.

 

The point is: with or without DPS checks, you stand a good chance of just being in for a bad time if you PUG for those two things. The DPS checkers are just a tiny bit of added fuel to an already raging flame. Guilds, on the other hand, should protect you from dealing with that (and if they don't, you have a bad guild and move on).

 

Find a good guild, one that doesn't have such toxic folks in it, and leave the toxic players to play amongst themselves. It's their playstyle, and taking away just 1 of the tools of their trade isn't going to make any sort of a difference.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > As it is, gear check is a convenience tool that allows players to select for their preferences.

> > >

> > > Well, they can already do that in the LFG description. They can ask for meta builds for example. Thing is, some people try to sneak into these groups without meeting the requirements.

> > >

> > > Ashen wrote earlier (in response to reporting gear check users, but the general principle applies, bolded the principle):

> > >

> > > > **If players had a basic respect for the rights of property owners to set rules on their property, and had the integrity to abide by their agreements**, then the money being spent on remedial action could instead be directed to more productive endeavors that would, potentially, benefit all players.

> > >

> > > If players who join groups that ask for specifics respected those rules set by the group starter, and had the integrity to abide by these agremeents, nobody would use gear check tools. You could just trust people to actually use a build that is listed on one of the raid meta webpages. Those people who use such a tool are probably just tired of wasting time. If you get a raid squad together you don't want to spend additional time on watching peoples' dps or boon duration and maybe kick someone who tried to sneak in. Pug raiding is a time waster already, where you just stand there for 80% of the time.

> > >

> > > I do not promote gear check tools, especially since I don't think there's a tool that only has gear check + dps meter as features. The tool allows real cheating for those who install it. I just see where people who use it are coming from. They want a quick run with a meta setup, and not carry people who sneaked in. Would be intertesting to get a reporting option for that. If you ask in LFG for experience and meta build, and a trailblazer scourge joins and keeps failing mechanics, you could report him for cheating on you.

> >

> > I'm fully in agreement that people (in general) ought to respect the expressed preferences of group formers (no matter the preference expressed). My point, though, was that offering a convenience tool which makes checking for so-called "leeching" while not also providing a convenience tool for those who form laid-back groups to check for kitten-hats seems off. People who think the LFG exists solely for their own convenience are not restricted to people who want to slide into meta groups under the radar -- although I'm sure it feels that way to people who only form or join meta groups.

>

> Simple answer really. Those people don't care about requirements. Ofc course there is no tool for them, because they have nothing to check.

>

> This has got to be the worst equity argument I've heard all week. "Well if they have it why don't we have it". Well you don't need tools to accept every random joe that comes along now do you? Any tool would impose a requirement, which is what people are here whining about.

>

> As for player behavior. Well. Did you happen to think 1984 by George Orwell should be using as a game manual? Because you were pretty close there. While you're at it lets have a tool to mark people who refuse to use proper builds in the game, then maybe dps meters, and gear checkers wouldn't be so prevalent? I honestly dread the downtime of arcdps on patches because I constantly have to leave groups or kick bads without being able to see whats going wrong.

 

The way my post was worded was satire. Pity you're too invested in your mindset to see it.

 

"Those people" may not care about requirements, but they surely dislike setting up a no-req group only to have a meta wannabe show up, cause trouble and try to kick them. Those people are no less abusive than people who join a meta group without meeting the posted reqs. Yes, I know ANet cannot build a tool to detect such people.

 

Want to know what would solve it? Make the group starter immune to kicks. Then, give the leader the ability to kick without anyone else's vote needed up until the instance starts. Once the instance has started, revert to the 3 votes needed system (with the group starter still immune).

[Cylokin.2560]

DPS tool is a great helper to help me better myself, toxic people will always be toxic, whether DPS tool is allowed or not.

[ClaraFee.2579]

According to YouTube videos I've seen, a gear checker is built into a specific hack/cheat program that - again, according to the user posting the video - tens of thousands of players have downloaded. Can't verify that; just repeating what I've seen and heard from watching a YouTube video.

 

If that's the case, then it may be that some players initially download and use such a program with _the intention of only using the gear checking component of the software_, but due to temptation, competitive edge, etc., they end up using the other speed hack and movement-related functions of the program... because, the tools are right there at their disposal.

 

**My position on the issue:** if gear checking is "okay," then it should be supported in-game. Otherwise, leaving gear checking out there in the questionable realm of _"well, if you can program it, then it might be okay to use it"_ allows it to be clumped together - and indeed, even packaged together - with programs that have more nefarious functionality. Same goes for DPS meters and whatever else.

 

**My idea to fix the problem:** To discourage such programs without also discouraging talented and valuable third party application developers (like our friends at GW2 Efficiency, for example), ArenaNet could provide a sort of separate Plugin Manager software. This would allow developers to write a program / add on, get it approved by ArenaNet, and distribute it to players. Players would then load it into the game through the Plugin Manager; needless to say, only approved plugins will actually load.

Everything else would be off limits and result in a ban. Period. Problems fixed. On to something else.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > As it is, gear check is a convenience tool that allows players to select for their preferences.

> > > >

> > > > Well, they can already do that in the LFG description. They can ask for meta builds for example. Thing is, some people try to sneak into these groups without meeting the requirements.

> > > >

> > > > Ashen wrote earlier (in response to reporting gear check users, but the general principle applies, bolded the principle):

> > > >

> > > > > **If players had a basic respect for the rights of property owners to set rules on their property, and had the integrity to abide by their agreements**, then the money being spent on remedial action could instead be directed to more productive endeavors that would, potentially, benefit all players.

> > > >

> > > > If players who join groups that ask for specifics respected those rules set by the group starter, and had the integrity to abide by these agremeents, nobody would use gear check tools. You could just trust people to actually use a build that is listed on one of the raid meta webpages. Those people who use such a tool are probably just tired of wasting time. If you get a raid squad together you don't want to spend additional time on watching peoples' dps or boon duration and maybe kick someone who tried to sneak in. Pug raiding is a time waster already, where you just stand there for 80% of the time.

> > > >

> > > > I do not promote gear check tools, especially since I don't think there's a tool that only has gear check + dps meter as features. The tool allows real cheating for those who install it. I just see where people who use it are coming from. They want a quick run with a meta setup, and not carry people who sneaked in. Would be intertesting to get a reporting option for that. If you ask in LFG for experience and meta build, and a trailblazer scourge joins and keeps failing mechanics, you could report him for cheating on you.

> > >

> > > I'm fully in agreement that people (in general) ought to respect the expressed preferences of group formers (no matter the preference expressed). My point, though, was that offering a convenience tool which makes checking for so-called "leeching" while not also providing a convenience tool for those who form laid-back groups to check for kitten-hats seems off. People who think the LFG exists solely for their own convenience are not restricted to people who want to slide into meta groups under the radar -- although I'm sure it feels that way to people who only form or join meta groups.

> >

> > Simple answer really. Those people don't care about requirements. Ofc course there is no tool for them, because they have nothing to check.

> >

> > This has got to be the worst equity argument I've heard all week. "Well if they have it why don't we have it". Well you don't need tools to accept every random joe that comes along now do you? Any tool would impose a requirement, which is what people are here whining about.

> >

> > As for player behavior. Well. Did you happen to think 1984 by George Orwell should be using as a game manual? Because you were pretty close there. While you're at it lets have a tool to mark people who refuse to use proper builds in the game, then maybe dps meters, and gear checkers wouldn't be so prevalent? I honestly dread the downtime of arcdps on patches because I constantly have to leave groups or kick bads without being able to see whats going wrong.

>

> The way my post was worded was satire. Pity you're too invested in your mindset to see it.

>

> "Those people" may not care about requirements, but they surely dislike setting up a no-req group only to have a meta wannabe show up, cause trouble and try to kick them. Those people are no less abusive than people who join a meta group without meeting the posted reqs. Yes, I know ANet cannot build a tool to detect such people.

>

> Want to know what would solve it? Make the group starter immune to kicks. Then, give the leader the ability to kick without anyone else's vote needed up until the instance starts. Once the instance has started, revert to the 3 votes needed system (with the group starter still immune).

 

And another sad argument. This is the internet. You don't word something as satire. Satire is the act of mocking a statement by pretending to take it. If someone can't tell its a satire, you are just a Poe. And if you are just a Poe, it's extremely hard to tell a Poe from the real thing, because people actually do hold these positions.

 

Don't write something one way, then say I'm the one who is pitiful. You intended it to be written that way, which means you have no room to complain when someone misunderstands your meaning, for the real thing.

 

As for the starter group being Immune to kicks? Terrible idea. I post LFG's all the time and the first few people to join are not what I asked for. A lot of people think they can slip in, bully their way in, or talk you into letting them stay. And this is within the first 4 others joining the group.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

>

> As for the starter group being Immune to kicks? Terrible idea. I post LFG's all the time and the first few people to join are not what I asked for. A lot of people think they can slip in, bully their way in, or talk you into letting them stay. And this is within the first 4 others joining the group.

 

Group starter does not equal starter group. The group starter is the player (singular) who posts the listing.

[Ryze.2891]

> @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> Look at all the people complaining about how others play the game - including those who don't want others using DPS meters.

>

>

>

 

I wish i could thump up this post 1000 times

[LordEnki.9283]

Good to see the implementation of raids didn't change the game in a negative way at all just like the very loud 20% or less of the game base that wanted them said it wouldn't.

[Swagg.9236]

This game was never "play how you want." It launched with a meta which only used 3 out of the 8 classes and everyone ran the same gear stat. And it was fine because that stat was easy to get and max it out (everyone runs the same gear stat even now except getting it at max is infinitely more tedious for no justifiable reason). Don't blame other players; blame anet for making 5-6 too many classes for a shallow game.

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

> > >

> > > Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

> > >

> > > Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

> >

> > DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

> >

> > To the OP:

> > As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

>

> DPS meters directly hack game memory. You don't have access to this data as a player without hacking the game. Anet decision to allow DPS meters is in opposition to their TOS.

 

Been away from the forums for several days, but in response to this: Combat data for all players in an area is sent to all game clients in that area. DPS meters simply reformat the data to be more easily read. Combat data is not private.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

> > > >

> > > > Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

> > > >

> > > > Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

> > >

> > > DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

> > >

> > > To the OP:

> > > As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

> >

> > DPS meters directly hack game memory. You don't have access to this data as a player without hacking the game. Anet decision to allow DPS meters is in opposition to their TOS.

>

> Been away from the forums for several days, but in response to this: Combat data for all players in an area is sent to all game clients in that area. DPS meters simply reformat the data to be more easily read. Combat data is not private.

 

I didn't say this. The information that it provided by dps is hidden within game client and not possible for you to read it using in-game tools. DPS meter literally hacks game memory and anet allows it even though it literally and directly breaks User Agreement.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

> > > >

> > > > DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

> > > >

> > > > To the OP:

> > > > As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

> > >

> > > DPS meters directly hack game memory. You don't have access to this data as a player without hacking the game. Anet decision to allow DPS meters is in opposition to their TOS.

> >

> > Been away from the forums for several days, but in response to this: Combat data for all players in an area is sent to all game clients in that area. DPS meters simply reformat the data to be more easily read. Combat data is not private.

>

> I didn't say this. The information that it provided by dps is hidden within game client and not possible for you to read it using in-game tools. DPS meter literally hacks game memory and anet allows it even though it literally and directly breaks User Agreement.

 

Dude, actually, that combat data is available in the Combat log...

DPS tools are only allowed if they give you data available there. And Arena Net themselves allowed it. So who are you again?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

> > > > >

> > > > > DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

> > > > >

> > > > > To the OP:

> > > > > As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

> > > >

> > > > DPS meters directly hack game memory. You don't have access to this data as a player without hacking the game. Anet decision to allow DPS meters is in opposition to their TOS.

> > >

> > > Been away from the forums for several days, but in response to this: Combat data for all players in an area is sent to all game clients in that area. DPS meters simply reformat the data to be more easily read. Combat data is not private.

> >

> > I didn't say this. The information that it provided by dps is hidden within game client and not possible for you to read it using in-game tools. DPS meter literally hacks game memory and anet allows it even though it literally and directly breaks User Agreement.

>

> Dude, actually, that combat data is available in the Combat log...

> DPS tools are only allowed if they give you data available there. And Arena Net themselves allowed it. So who are you again?

 

You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

[Belorn.2659]

Blizzard has a rather nice rule in regard to Hearthstone. If a tool is just an computerized version of pen and paper writing down what the player already have access to, then its not an exploit and not against the rules. Simple and clean, and obvious when enforcement comes down.

 

Early DPS meters worked by screen scraping the event log. It was nothing but a computerized version of pen and paper writing down what happened in the log. They were imprecise, did not catch the skill animations of party members or changes to the boss health when those skills landed, but those were always technically within the grasp of such technique. Calling those tools hacking is hyperbole.

 

Current DPS meters function basically identical to those but take a extra step and goes from imprecise to precise since they get direct access to the event stream. They are close enough to the computerized pen and paper and passes the three questions from Gaile's post.

 

Gear check do not. Gear check can allow a PvP player to see the build of opposing players, which breaks the first requirement. Gear is impossible to identify in the game (skins has a long time been separated from the attributes). Not amount of "pen and paper" can do what a gear checking tool do. Outside of API keys, gear checking is not possible, which is why many raid and fractal guilds require today that you give them an API key so that can do gear checking on you.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

 

You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

>

> You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

 

You can't access this data without using a tool which is not provided by game client for you. You are hacking the game. That's how it works. Let's call things how they are. Anet allowed these tools only because they know they can't control players using them, as they can't detect them. So they allowed these hacks to make playerbase control itself. It's the same manipulation process as some countries use to control marijuana distribution.

 

Now I think anet should allow gearchecks because these tools work exactly like dps meters. And the technology is already there as even ArcDPS can already read your gear but its dev hid this function to be in line Chris's rules.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

> >

> > You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

>

> You can't access this data without using a tool which is not provided by game client for you. You are hacking the game. That's how it works. Let's call things how they are. Anet allowed these tools only because they know they can't control players using them, as they can't detect them. So they allowed these hacks to make playerbase control itself. It's the same manipulation process as some countries use to control marijuana distribution.

>

 

It's only a "hack" in the sense of "lifehack", a strategy or technique adopted in order to manage one's time and daily activities in a more efficient way. It's only a "hack" if you also consider the following to be hacks: GW2 Timer, GW2 Efficiency and GW2 BLTC, GW2 Crafts, the [Wardrobe Unlock Analyzer](http://immortius.net.au/guaranteed-wardrobe-unlock/), etc. Every single one of those tools offers data that cannot be seen using the game client alone. So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio.

 

ArcDPS is acceptable to ANet (and BGDM was not) precisely because it uses only data that is reported by the game already. ArcDPS just puts it in a form that makes it useful in real time. In contast, BGDM also provided data that **was not** already being reported by the game and that's why it was disallowed.

 

Chris Cleary has been very clear that this is **not** about allowing anything that they have trouble controlling (that's a bigger list than this thread even tries to discuss); it is very much about the company's evolving views on what's important & useful to players, what the game should or shouldn't provide, and the form in which that data is presented.

 

> Now I think anet should allow gearchecks because these tools work exactly like dps meters. And the technology is already there as even ArcDPS can already read your gear but its dev hid this function to be in line Chris's rules.

No, gearchecks are reading data that isn't available without cheating. The technology to cheat is **always** going to exist; that's not a good reason to allow it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

> > >

> > > You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

> >

> > You can't access this data without using a tool which is not provided by game client for you. You are hacking the game. That's how it works. Let's call things how they are. Anet allowed these tools only because they know they can't control players using them, as they can't detect them. So they allowed these hacks to make playerbase control itself. It's the same manipulation process as some countries use to control marijuana distribution.

> >

>

> It's only a "hack" in the sense of "lifehack", a strategy or technique adopted in order to manage one's time and daily activities in a more efficient way. It's only a "hack" if you also consider the following to be hacks: GW2 Timer, GW2 Efficiency and GW2 BLTC, GW2 Crafts, the [Wardrobe Unlock Analyzer](http://immortius.net.au/guaranteed-wardrobe-unlock/), etc. Every single one of those tools offers data that cannot be seen using the game client alone. So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio.

>

> ArcDPS is acceptable to ANet (and BGDM was not) precisely because it uses only data that is reported by the game already. ArcDPS just puts it in a form that makes it useful in real time. In contast, BGDM also provided data that **was not** already being reported by the game and that's why it was disallowed.

>

> Chris Cleary has been very clear that this is **not** about allowing anything that they have trouble controlling (that's a bigger list than this thread even tries to discuss); it is very much about the company's evolving views on what's important & useful to players, what the game should or shouldn't provide, and the form in which that data is presented.

>

> > Now I think anet should allow gearchecks because these tools work exactly like dps meters. And the technology is already there as even ArcDPS can already read your gear but its dev hid this function to be in line Chris's rules.

> No, gearchecks are reading data that isn't available without cheating. The technology to cheat is **always** going to exist; that's not a good reason to allow it.

 

Game client reads your character same way it reads dps you deal to the monster. It's all in game memory. So when ArcDPS hacks game memory to read dps it already can read everything that is there, gear included. That means they already allow technology to hack the game and read it and now they try to limit how players access this data.

 

Allowing DPs meter and not allowing gear check is hypocrisy.

[Belorn.2659]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

> > > >

> > > > You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

> > >

> > > You can't access this data without using a tool which is not provided by game client for you. You are hacking the game. That's how it works. Let's call things how they are. Anet allowed these tools only because they know they can't control players using them, as they can't detect them. So they allowed these hacks to make playerbase control itself. It's the same manipulation process as some countries use to control marijuana distribution.

> > >

> >

> > It's only a "hack" in the sense of "lifehack", a strategy or technique adopted in order to manage one's time and daily activities in a more efficient way. It's only a "hack" if you also consider the following to be hacks: GW2 Timer, GW2 Efficiency and GW2 BLTC, GW2 Crafts, the [Wardrobe Unlock Analyzer](http://immortius.net.au/guaranteed-wardrobe-unlock/), etc. Every single one of those tools offers data that cannot be seen using the game client alone. So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio.

> >

> > ArcDPS is acceptable to ANet (and BGDM was not) precisely because it uses only data that is reported by the game already. ArcDPS just puts it in a form that makes it useful in real time. In contast, BGDM also provided data that **was not** already being reported by the game and that's why it was disallowed.

> >

> > Chris Cleary has been very clear that this is **not** about allowing anything that they have trouble controlling (that's a bigger list than this thread even tries to discuss); it is very much about the company's evolving views on what's important & useful to players, what the game should or shouldn't provide, and the form in which that data is presented.

> >

> > > Now I think anet should allow gearchecks because these tools work exactly like dps meters. And the technology is already there as even ArcDPS can already read your gear but its dev hid this function to be in line Chris's rules.

> > No, gearchecks are reading data that isn't available without cheating. The technology to cheat is **always** going to exist; that's not a good reason to allow it.

>

> Game client reads your character same way it reads dps you deal to the monster. It's all in game memory. So when ArcDPS hacks game memory to read dps it already can read everything that is there, gear included. That means they already allow technology to hack the game and read it and now they try to limit how players access this data.

>

> Allowing DPs meter and not allowing gear check is hypocrisy.

 

Please just stop. No one else is calling DPS meter hacking. DPS meters have different intent and purpose to gear checking, especially in PvP.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

someone in wvw used a dps meter in the reset raid lastnight and was callinmg people out. i was not on ts at the time but he said at 1 point that the wvw commander (full mistral firebrand) was 3rd dps in a 50 person squad though he did not take into account of refelcts and burn ticks. not to mention its pirate ship atm. is this how try hard people wanna be now?

[Aridon.8362]

PvE people never cease to surprise me in how they can bring each other down to the lowest level through dps checks. I'd like to say first and foremost my wvw guild uses dps checks but they don't use them as standards to yell at people with; instead my guild uses it to realize who is under performing in the radar and we help them do better in the long run so they can land their damage more effectively, but never and I mean never will we become savages that berate our guildies for doing poorly or even consider kicking them as an option.

 

I think that no matter what game mode you are on, you have to look at things from two perspectives when it comes to dealing damage, overall damage done and damage per second. You have to make sure that the person really is under performing in both categories to base an assumption. Also, if four people are doing great and one isn't just finish the fractal, don't just kick them out, it is only a game after all, not a competition; there is legit a problem with you if you ARE competing with someone on killing monsters. If you want to keep all the competition out then you are playing the wrong kind of game, go play a single player game and I promise you that you will be the strongest person there is.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> someone in wvw used a dps meter in the reset raid lastnight and was callinmg people out. i was not on ts at the time but he said at 1 point that the wvw commander (full mistral firebrand) was 3rd dps in a 50 person squad though he did not take into account of refelcts and burn ticks. not to mention its pirate ship atm. is this how try hard people wanna be now?

 

DPS meters do take into account condi ticks and retaliation, not sure about reflects, but pretty sure it does as well.

If a full minstrel (i'm supposing that's what you meant), was 3rd DPS, the guy does have a point, since Minstrel's is probably the least offensive stat set in the game, with zero damage modifiers.

Not saying that he'd earned the right to be an ass about it, **but** he has a point.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> someone in wvw used a dps meter in the reset raid lastnight and was callinmg people out. i was not on ts at the time but he said at 1 point that the wvw commander (full mistral firebrand) was 3rd dps in a 50 person squad though he did not take into account of refelcts and burn ticks. not to mention its pirate ship atm. is this how try hard people wanna be now?

 

Oh during last halloween there were reported cases of commanders harassing people in Labyrinth with dps meters. Allowing this tool is like allowind drunk person drive a tank :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > You can't see other players data in your combat log. Anyway, dps meter hacks the game, literally. Whether it is allowed or not in up to anet, but they are breaking their own UA allowing these tools.

> > > > >

> > > > > You get information that the client itself does not provide, that is true. I'm not so sure that this is hacking though. Anet made no efforts to hide the data. If you use a public computer to log into your Facebook, and leave it there without logging off or closing down the computer, and someone else posts on your Facebook later, you have not been hacked. If Anet encrypted the data, you would need to hack it, or better, crack it.

> > > >

> > > > You can't access this data without using a tool which is not provided by game client for you. You are hacking the game. That's how it works. Let's call things how they are. Anet allowed these tools only because they know they can't control players using them, as they can't detect them. So they allowed these hacks to make playerbase control itself. It's the same manipulation process as some countries use to control marijuana distribution.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It's only a "hack" in the sense of "lifehack", a strategy or technique adopted in order to manage one's time and daily activities in a more efficient way. It's only a "hack" if you also consider the following to be hacks: GW2 Timer, GW2 Efficiency and GW2 BLTC, GW2 Crafts, the [Wardrobe Unlock Analyzer](http://immortius.net.au/guaranteed-wardrobe-unlock/), etc. Every single one of those tools offers data that cannot be seen using the game client alone. So while you can make a technical argument that ArcDPS uses a "hack," it's not a meaningful distinction in terms of what should/should not be allowed by a reasonable game studio.

> > >

> > > ArcDPS is acceptable to ANet (and BGDM was not) precisely because it uses only data that is reported by the game already. ArcDPS just puts it in a form that makes it useful in real time. In contast, BGDM also provided data that **was not** already being reported by the game and that's why it was disallowed.

> > >

> > > Chris Cleary has been very clear that this is **not** about allowing anything that they have trouble controlling (that's a bigger list than this thread even tries to discuss); it is very much about the company's evolving views on what's important & useful to players, what the game should or shouldn't provide, and the form in which that data is presented.

> > >

> > > > Now I think anet should allow gearchecks because these tools work exactly like dps meters. And the technology is already there as even ArcDPS can already read your gear but its dev hid this function to be in line Chris's rules.

> > > No, gearchecks are reading data that isn't available without cheating. The technology to cheat is **always** going to exist; that's not a good reason to allow it.

> >

> > Game client reads your character same way it reads dps you deal to the monster. It's all in game memory. So when ArcDPS hacks game memory to read dps it already can read everything that is there, gear included. That means they already allow technology to hack the game and read it and now they try to limit how players access this data.

> >

> > Allowing DPs meter and not allowing gear check is hypocrisy.

>

> Please just stop. No one else is calling DPS meter hacking. DPS meters have different intent and purpose to gear checking, especially in PvP.

 

What are dps meters if not hacking? You can't access game memory without injecting a 3rd party, unauthorized .dll into the game :)

 

If pvp, a niche almost dead game mode is an excuse for not implementing gearchecks, they should just hide player build within game memory so allowed hacks don't read them. Considering how 1 hack is allowed but other is not seems a bit arbitrary.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > someone in wvw used a dps meter in the reset raid lastnight and was callinmg people out. i was not on ts at the time but he said at 1 point that the wvw commander (full mistral firebrand) was 3rd dps in a 50 person squad though he did not take into account of refelcts and burn ticks. not to mention its pirate ship atm. is this how try hard people wanna be now?

>

> DPS meters do take into account condi ticks and retaliation, not sure about reflects, but pretty sure it does as well.

> If a full minstrel (i'm supposing that's what you meant), was 3rd DPS, the guy does have a point, since Minstrel's is probably the least offensive stat set in the game, with zero damage modifiers.

> Not saying that he'd earned the right to be an kitten about it, **but** he has a point.

 

not when the meta is pirate ship... reflects can easily stack up a lot of dps back, also even the burn ticks from firebrand. minstrel still has power and most of the time 25 might stacks.