Alacrity and Phantasm changes discussion

[musu.9205]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"musu.9205" said:

> > > @"tartarus.1082" said:

> > > > @"musu.9205" said:

> > > > > @"Exciton.8942" said:

> > > > > Seems to be very significant nerf to alacrity. Less up time. Less effectiveness. Vulnerable to boon stirp/convert.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only plus is that you invest in boon duration to get its uptime back.

> > > >

> > > > the problem isnt the alacrity uptime the problem is after changes to tot and phantasm , chrono quickness rotation will even be much slower , while it can still get 100% quickness and alacrity it may not worth it anymore consider 100% quickness firebrand is 25k dps around .

> > > >

> > > > btw phantasm seems pretty good , but until i saw this : the Phantasmal Defender skill now taunts foes instead of buffing allies and the Phantasmal Warlock skill summons two phantasms, each with a new attack.

> > > > do anet knows what buff means . idefender one is a huge nerf to pvp chrono

> > >

> > > Tbh pvp chrono as it is now likely won't exist anymore. Especially since chronophantasma was the primary trait the build was based on.

> >

> > well chrono will be dead since it will have no real sustain damage .

> >

> >

>

> Not really? You never left phantasms alive anyway, you either shatter them or they died. This just means they do more before they die.

 

look at bigger picture , your sustain dmg or burst if you play with signet of illusion is from frequent shatter including phantasm which give you double dmg source . without that , double shield phantasm attack isnt going to do much , 1) you can't shatter it until it become clone , 2) you won't have another phantasm/clone after shatter .quickness on shatter might be better choice than chronophantasma .

 

[musu.9205]

since no one even mentioned , given the changes , anet could possible force chrono choose to keep 100% quickness from seize the moment/time wrap or keep 100% alacrity with chroophantasma . that itself is fine but if they didnt balance mes power dps around this , we will be outclassed by firebrand and rev .

all depends on the numbers i guess

but tbh after 5 years i simply dont trust anet on this one

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > I'm overall excited for these changes as I much rather enjoy playing more interactive shattering builds, even in pve.

> > >

> > > However, I am also concerned people who are new to the game and play base mesmer are going to get hit pretty hard.

> > > Additionally, with that said, know nerfs are:

> > > 1. tides of time no longer produces quickness

> > > 2. alacrity can now be corrupted

> > > 3. Alacrity at 33% reduced skill recharges by 25%. Alacrity at 25% reduces skill recharges by 20%. This means alacrity is getting nerfed by 20%.

> > > 4. Chronophantasm no longer helps with illusion upkeep and illusionary reversion is still nerfed because of it.

> >

> > Chronophantasma is going to be changed regardless. Phantasms can't be shattered after these changes, so that trait cannot remain the same. Wait to see what its changed to before you complain about it.

>

> Gee already said that chronophantasma will now make phantasms attack twice before turning into a clone instead of once.

 

Yes but at the same time he revealed that illusions will remain the same health. Depending of the situation phantasms rarely survive to perform a whole attack, so imagine survive to perform two... while before you could use that trait to boost a combo of several shatters by itself or together with Ilusionary Reversion. So it's good for some situations (+pve) and bad for others when your phantasm die too fast, WvW, PvP... only been able to perform one shatter after he dies and the clone is spawned.

 

Aside, we still don't know the destiny of the confusion... So there are positive changes and others not as good or negative. But ok, patience, soon we'll get more news. At least, I hope that the global set of changes will be positive for us.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > Holy kitten, I thought it might be something big since they said they were going to announce it before hand but I didn't actually expect they would go through with something this big.

> > >

> > > Also since this semi confirms they do secretly read this board. *waves*

> >

> > Yeah I'm also kinda hyped that the changes are this big and that they finally want to improve active gameplay.

>

> Yep, it's a good thing.

>

> Honestly I'm expecting most of the changes to be significantly undertuned on release. I'm expecting power mesmer dps to take a big hit, quickness and alacrity to be exceedingly hard to maintain, and phantasms to be generally pretty meh. However, I'm hoping that they'll make good on their statement to monitor the changes and feedback and implement adjustments as necessary.

 

This. We'll probably take nose dive first. But from a gameplay point of view, I really appretiate this change. And **maybe** the attacks attached to Phantasm skills will also finally deal a reasonable amount of damage. Right now, it's laughable.> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> Skill/trait changes from the thread:

>

> Phantasmal Fury stays the same

> Chronophantasma lets the Phantasm attack twice before becoming a clone.

> Signet of the Ether's passive has been changed and heals when illusions are summoned. Active the same.

> Disenchanter removes multiple boons and deal significantly more damage.

 

I'm personally disappointed with Phantasmal Fury. It would be a good time to re-valuate the Duelling line and merge some traits. Sure, Fury on Phantasm still has an effect. But it's clearly less valuable than before. I'm also curious what they're going to do with the other traits.

 

* Empowered Illusions (...probably remains as is... meh)

* Persisting Images (... better not remain the same...)

* Mental Defense (Taunt on block or evade feels weird. Rework?)

* Illusionary Inspiration (Bye bye perma-Regeneration)

* Peristence of Memory (Automatic transfer after attack? Works with Illusions? Rework?)

* Phantasmal Haste (No idea... Alacrity after summoning Phantasm? :3 )

* Phantasmal Force (Buff to Mesmer after casting Phantasm?)

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Sila.6748" said:

> I guess these changes are just confusing me. I'm neutral for them for now, until I figure out what it means for my situation. But not understanding it is leaving me disappointed. Open world stuff is still quite a bit different than PVP, WvW, and even raids. I don't always have the luxury of another party member's support boons, or having the optimal setup. Sometimes you just deal with what you got.

 

I don't think you'll have to worry too much for most of the things you described.

* Your Berserker will only attack once. So you're going to deal less damage through this specific skill. But we should get some damage elsewhere.

* Your Berserker will be replaced by a Clone after the initial attack. So it still can serve as a distraction. If you don't need a distraction, use F1 for damage.

* The changes to Alacrity can't be evaluated yet. Not enough information. But unless you're doing raids, you're very likely going to be fine. No need to calculate.

 

Two things as advice:

* Lern when to use F1 for damage - not only for condition removal. This will become more important even in open world PvE.

* Try making yourself familiar with another weapon rather than GS (e.g. Sword + Shield). GS is fun but camping it isn't that efficient in most scenarios.

 

[dontlook.1823]

I am mostly apprehensive. There is some excitement there. But mostly apprehension just cause its almost a complete overhaul to the Mesmer.

 

To be fair the only source of my apprehension is the possible DPS loss through this new re-work. As they've stated they want us to engage more with the core mechanic which is awesome, IMHO. ANet further stated they wanted more expenditure/usage of the core mechanic to be rewarding. If this stands true then I am not too worried as it should be an overall DPS increase.

[Wolfric.9380]

well i actually would have liked a mesmer without shatter skills ^^.

[eldenbri.1059]

Feels like the condi chrono roamer I've used in wvw for a long time won't be as viable, but I'll have to wait and see.

 

Since chronophantasma apparently won't give a second illusion to shatter, that means four fewer shattered illusions (defender, avenger, mage, disenchanter) and it also means fewer clones generated from the chrono trait to add a clone on shatter (illusionary reversion). So in total, that's less confusion, torment and healing.

 

Taking quickness off of tides of time is a bit of a bummer because it was great for recharging healing mantra faster. It's hard to tell what the final outcome will be on personal alacrity.

 

Have to wait and see about the changes to the phantasms. The defender absorbing damage was actually really nice for helping with a first burst from a power attack. Taunt may prove helpful, but hard to imagine a deadeye is in range of that taunt unless the defender spawns on top of him.

 

And of course, the big question that's left is what's happening with confusion. Lots to learn before the final answer is clear.

[DanteZero.9736]

I'm more irked about the formula and wording for alacrity calculations in that I keep imagining 25% faster cooldowns equates to a 10 second cooldown being 7.5 seconds. In actuality, the formula would lead a 10 second cooldown to be 8 seconds--which in my mind, is 20% because 8 is 2 less than 10, which is 20%.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"DanteZero.9736" said:

> I'm more irked about the formula and wording for alacrity calculations in that I keep imagining 25% faster cooldowns equates to a 10 second cooldown being 7.5 seconds. In actuality, the formula would lead a 10 second cooldown to be 8 seconds--which in my mind, is 20% because 8 is 2 less than 10, which is 20%.

 

It's always been this way. Alacrity is a cooldown **rate** adjustment, not a flat cooldown adjustment.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > Holy kitten, I thought it might be something big since they said they were going to announce it before hand but I didn't actually expect they would go through with something this big.

> > > >

> > > > Also since this semi confirms they do secretly read this board. *waves*

> > >

> > > Yeah I'm also kinda hyped that the changes are this big and that they finally want to improve active gameplay.

> >

> > Yep, it's a good thing.

> >

> > Honestly I'm expecting most of the changes to be significantly undertuned on release. I'm expecting power mesmer dps to take a big hit, quickness and alacrity to be exceedingly hard to maintain, and phantasms to be generally pretty meh. However, I'm hoping that they'll make good on their statement to monitor the changes and feedback and implement adjustments as necessary.

>

> This. We'll probably take nose dive first. But from a gameplay point of view, I really appretiate this change. And **maybe** the attacks attached to Phantasm skills will also finally deal a reasonable amount of damage. Right now, it's laughable.> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Skill/trait changes from the thread:

> >

> > Phantasmal Fury stays the same

> > Chronophantasma lets the Phantasm attack twice before becoming a clone.

> > Signet of the Ether's passive has been changed and heals when illusions are summoned. Active the same.

> > Disenchanter removes multiple boons and deal significantly more damage.

>

> I'm personally disappointed with Phantasmal Fury. It would be a good time to re-valuate the Duelling line and merge some traits. Sure, Fury on Phantasm still has an effect. But it's clearly less valuable than before. I'm also curious what they're going to do with the other traits.

>

> * Empowered Illusions (...probably remains as is... meh)

> * Persisting Images (... better not remain the same...)

> * Mental Defense (Taunt on block or evade feels weird. Rework?)

> * Illusionary Inspiration (Bye bye perma-Regeneration)

> * Peristence of Memory (Automatic transfer after attack? Works with Illusions? Rework?)

> * Phantasmal Haste (No idea... Alacrity after summoning Phantasm? :3 )

> * Phantasmal Force (Buff to Mesmer after casting Phantasm?)

 

Its not super inspired, but if they want to keep the spirit of phantasmal fury the same, they should just change it to their 1 attack is a guaranteed crit. 20% crit chance is shit when they only get a single attack, and they have high enough CDs on phantasm skills that giving them a guaranteed crit, that can be negated anyhow by destroying them first, is far from overpowered

[otto.5684]

Best news for Mesmer since I can remember. Hopefully this is paired with reduced cd on phantams and things will be great.

[Mogar.9216]

lol I have to laugh, this is a huge buff to Mirages and a huge nerf to Chronos.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I can't see how this will be a bad change by itself. Of course, the devil is in the details. We have no idea how they intend to balance the new phantasm skills, traits, etc. But from a general design perspective, this is basically what we've been asking for. Letting AI play the game for you simply isn't compelling gameplay to most players, so moving away from that should be an improvement.

[Windwalker.7421]

I agree with Pyro that this could well turn out to be one of the best changes to Mesmers since release. Phantasms were never a mechanic I liked, and I have always especially disliked the lacking synergy between Clones and Phantasms.

 

On paper at least it sounds like it could really improve the the fun-factor of playing a Mesmer.

 

 

[Alcestis.4290]

what people cant play with the give and take of the class? everyone just seems to want mesmers to be a easy high dmg class

[MikeL.8260]

We don't know trait changes yet but with what we know about the new system, it's definetely a DPS buff for all specs especially Mirage but also a support nerf for raids and high fractals for Chronomancer. Personally I find it exciting, especially looking forward to that Warlock double phantasm spawn thing, reminds me of the final quest in PoF.

 

But I'll try not to be too excited about anything until the full list of changes and numbers shows up.

[ovinnik.9216]

Good. Here's hoping they don't throw in the towel halfway through and are indeed ready to bring this overhaul to a satisfying conclusion. I wonder what this will mean for power DPS, in the end.

 

As for Alacrity, perhaps it would've been removed completely were it not so intertwined with the Chronomancer's existence. There may be further changes yet.

[Hackuuna.4085]

I'm optimistic about the changes to phantasms but a lot hinges on the specifics. I'm hoping something was done to push the active power shatter style to PvE such as increasing damage from weapon skills and shatters. It's silly that in fractals I can get at most 15k dps playing perfectly and with tremendous skill in a zerk shatter build when I can just play a super easy viper clone Mirage and double that number to 30k dps both in short fights and long fights.

 

From a WvW perspective I like the change as phantasms are vaporized either by random AoE or shatter after they are summoned most of the time.

[Zenith.7301]

I'm happy the change is happening, but I'm terrified for the tuning side of things.

 

I get the fear they will buff the phantasm single attack by like 20-30% and call it a day, resulting in significant DPS loss because the issue is that shatters are simply garbage in PvE; they are way too weak. Especially condition-applying shatters.

 

A condi clone mirage will still never want to shatter unless they buff shattering in output to the point where we actually don't mind losing clone autoattacks and infinite horizons.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

This means the death of sustaining reflection, boon/condi rip/removal, and alacrity with 3 phants. The latter is immensely helpful in WvW when you are the only Chrono and the only one with ram mastery.

 

It feels like the mimic rework. Much more helpful in the long run but I will miss the niche applications.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

It basically force dps PvE mesmers into clone mirage, which only really shines when new players have the money to buy vipers gear. I'm not a conspiracy theory person and I don't believe it is their intention, but it will disadvantage those not running PoF and pigeonhole chrono into boon bot (yes zerker chrono can still do 20k dps easily in frac/raid/dungeons with 3 iSwordman). Core mesmer itself will be shun even further and are forced into either elite specs to be viable even in dungeons, which is not friendly to new players at all.

 

All in all they basically force mesmers into burst class unless you run clone mirage. Which I wouldn't call short sighted but if you look pass the initial "fix phantasm conflict" aspect we loses out diversity unless next expansion bring another overhaul.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> This means the death of sustaining reflection, boon/condi rip/removal, and alacrity with 3 phants. The latter is immensely helpful in WvW when you are the only Chrono and the only one with ram mastery.

>

> It feels like the mimic rework. Much more helpful in the long run but I will miss the niche applications.

 

If you're in WvW and guardians aren't using shield 5 and courage 3 on the rams to block disablers, the problem is your group, not the lack of mesmer utility.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > This means the death of sustaining reflection, boon/condi rip/removal, and alacrity with 3 phants. The latter is immensely helpful in WvW when you are the only Chrono and the only one with ram mastery.

> >

> > It feels like the mimic rework. Much more helpful in the long run but I will miss the niche applications.

>

> If you're in WvW and guardians aren't using shield 5 and courage 3 on the rams to block disablers, the problem is your group, not the lack of mesmer utility.

 

You misread. I said the latter, as in 3 shield phants to give me alacrity while I ram. The sustained reflection part was based on fond memories of fractals and syncing up wardens.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > This means the death of sustaining reflection, boon/condi rip/removal, and alacrity with 3 phants. The latter is immensely helpful in WvW when you are the only Chrono and the only one with ram mastery.

> > >

> > > It feels like the mimic rework. Much more helpful in the long run but I will miss the niche applications.

> >

> > If you're in WvW and guardians aren't using shield 5 and courage 3 on the rams to block disablers, the problem is your group, not the lack of mesmer utility.

>

> You misread. I said the latter, as in 3 shield phants to give me alacrity while I ram. The sustained reflection part was based on fond memories of fractals and syncing up wardens.

 

Ah yes, well that will go away. Realistically though, the amount of times you're able to do that effectively is really quite low due to the amount of people clustered around the gate stealing target spots.