Pay to win element in expansions.

[Haleydawn.3764]

Make your own groups, as other players make their own with the requirements they like (efficiency in mind).

If a group asks for ‘druid, chrono, dps’ and you join on your Guardian in his current setup, you aren’t a dps. It sounds like a wet sponge build (can take any hits but can’t deal any significant damage). The Druid and chrono have got the support side of things covered.

If I’m reading your post right, you have bought an expansion, you just choose to play what you like, which is fine. But don’t expect people who ask for dps to be ok with a wet sponge, when they expect a benchmarked build that’s proven to output a decent chunk of damage.

 

Love how people throw p2w around at the minute. Gw2 is b2p, you’re expected to buy expansions to play everything there is to offer, Elite specs included. Even before expansions, there was optimal setups for dungeons.

 

 

Very happy there’s no level cap increase like other games have in expansions.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Rayti.6531" said:

> > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > "Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game" That is the dragon hunter/fire brand specialization is it not??

>

> Nope it's not. The DH and FB specialization are acquired in game - but you have to buy the game first before you can acquire something in it. Seems logical, no?

>

> > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > and yes i am gated if i get kicked simply because i dont have it. there are even times where i am kicked simply because new players that join the party say things like "do you have dragon hunter?" i reply no, and they leave the party. Then i get kicked for scareing people off.

>

> This problem you encounter has nothing to do with the expansions. There was a "meta" before the expansions as well. I remember times where you were kicked for being an Ele, right when fractals came out. The reason? "Most Eles are bad and die too quickly/often". Rangers were a no-go anyway... etc. etc.

>

> You are looking for a solution to your problem in the wrong place. As others have already stated: Start your own LFG and don't run with people who set requirements for their runs you can't fulfill. There are enough people out there who don't give a hoot what class or build you are running -> find those, make friends with them, enjoy.

 

Cool, so an in game earned token that can be traded in for +100 to all stats, but only if you bought the unlock for the token in the store, real money only, would not be pay to win?

 

 

[Boulder.3589]

> @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> Im seeing the same redundant arguments against what i mean by "gateing". It doent have to be strictly game code like the # of ecto refinement in crafting. It can also be community.

>

> We can all agree that there is Eliteism going on. We can also agree that there are casuals. Im looking for a casual fractal guild. I did not find one in map chat. Now i am on the forums. So far no one has helped me. The only logical conclusion is that core guardian is so bad even casuals dont want it.

>

> Don't give me B*** S*** telling me to create a "casual" LFG because i have sat at my computer waiting for 2 hours doing that. it doesnt work. Even when a party is started casuals cant even complete chaos fractal. Everyone wipes and i gotta spend 5 minutes soloing the Gladiator or reviving. Which, BTW, enforces my preference for Honor over Dragonhunter.

 

You just proved that you absolutely did not get "gated". You got a party started and got into the fractal and played, and kept wiping. Wiping is not getting gated. Lack of new but decently skilled players with a willingness to learn is why you were wiping. And experienced players not willing to put up with a newbie with a spec that they think will slow them down is getting you kicked from groups that can complete the fractal. I guess all you can do is keep looking for some tolerant but experienced players or other like minded people. If you played a higher dps spec you wouldn't be kicked from groups that could actually finish the fractal and you would have no need to have "preference for Honor over Dragonhunter". They're well in their right to refuse to play with someone using a spec that doesn't fit with what they're looking for in a team mate too.

[Rayti.6531]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Rayti.6531" said:

> > > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > > "Pay to win means the company selling something that increases the power of your character, which cannot also be acquired in game" That is the dragon hunter/fire brand specialization is it not??

> >

> > Nope it's not. The DH and FB specialization are acquired in game - but you have to buy the game first before you can acquire something in it. Seems logical, no?

> >

> > > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > > and yes i am gated if i get kicked simply because i dont have it. there are even times where i am kicked simply because new players that join the party say things like "do you have dragon hunter?" i reply no, and they leave the party. Then i get kicked for scareing people off.

> >

> > This problem you encounter has nothing to do with the expansions. There was a "meta" before the expansions as well. I remember times where you were kicked for being an Ele, right when fractals came out. The reason? "Most Eles are bad and die too quickly/often". Rangers were a no-go anyway... etc. etc.

> >

> > You are looking for a solution to your problem in the wrong place. As others have already stated: Start your own LFG and don't run with people who set requirements for their runs you can't fulfill. There are enough people out there who don't give a hoot what class or build you are running -> find those, make friends with them, enjoy.

>

> Cool, so an in game earned token that can be traded in for +100 to all stats, but only if you bought the unlock for the token in the store, real money only, would not be pay to win?

>

>

 

The problem with your example is that it is totally unrelated to what I wrote (or at least intentionally exaggerated). I was merely stating that the build diversity offered by elite specializations is part of the expansion and in order to unlock it, one has to buy the expansion first (buy2play). It's the same discussion all over again, where core GW2 players started demanding mounts for their (very often even free) core game accounts, because "pay2win" -> which indicates a huge misinterpretation of what "pay2win" even means. Must be very sheltered players who were lucky enough to never have encountered real pay2win.

 

Pay2win usually makes completing content intentionally close to impossible (or only possible by investing unrealistically high amounts of play time), unless the player is ready to pay real money to progess at all (or faster).

 

On that note (and to come back to your little example):

It's not like anyone gets 100+ to all stats from using an elite specialization (or from buying an expansion). The elite specializations mostly offer a different way of playing certain professions (e.g. a support role is opened to Rangers, while otherwise support heavy professions like Guardians get a better DPS option). The different options are being balanced through all professions and their specializations, so every class could theoretically fulfill each role (direct/condi DPS, support, etc.), but there's always a profession being better at something specific.

 

However: Not having bought an expansion does not prevent anyone from successfully completing fractals (i.e. "winning"), which makes the whole pay2win argument fall flat. It doesn't even take you immensely longer on core specializations (we are talking minutes here, depending on individual skill level)...

 

The OPs unwillingness to take one of the many options mentioned in this thread (like looking for like-minded players, changing to a DPS build, starting his/her own LFG, etc.) will play a big part in not being kept in a party (and as a result being unable to complete a fractal). That the OP refuses to adapt in any way or form is not the expansions' fault.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > By this definition playing a necro or a ranger made the core game pay to win because they were often kicked out of parties for years before HoT. This is simply the wrong definition of pay to win. There's always going to be more or less effective builds. And there's always an option to start your own LFG and say all welcome, which works just fine.

>

> Yes, you are right. _THEN ANET REWORKED CONDITIONS TO FIX THAT_.

> I am suggesting Anet do the same. Buff core guardian utility skills so we dont have a mono build of dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades.

 

But it took them years to rework it. So yeah they may rework this too. Once you misuse a word to try to make a point because you think it makes your point sound stronger, you run the risk of seeming disingenuous. There are professions that are definitely at a disadvantage in certain situations and there always has been. That's fair to say and that's not something I would argue with. Calling it pay to win in a red herring that simply detracts from the entire conversation, which helps no one.

[Chyanne Waters.8719]

Pay to win games lets give an example of that. We will not use a PC game but a mobile game. Candy Crush Saga. Candy crush is a very popular mobile game which starts out pretty easy, but as you progress in the game gets harder. You can keep playing the game and hope you get through each level like you want. Then the levels get harder to figure out What to do? Then a message comes up saying we will show you or hint what to do if you pay us some money. You pay them the money and you get through another level. Now that would be the definition of a pay to win game.

 

Expansions are a way to increase abilities for your characters, but it also increases the abilities for your foes. Now Gw2 is kind of unique, because it relies on skills rather than armor to make your character better (or worse depending on how you play it). Gw2 has no level to gear grind like other games do. If that is what your looking for then go to that type of game, but keep Gw2 on your computer and you will miss it.

 

I understand you are good with your core game Guardian that is great. But expecting to compete with people who have used way more combinations with the expansions than you have is crazy and to be honest more elitist than they are. I will never understand the vanilla game concept. Yes that is what started it all, but the games ability to change and grow with new abilities and skills is more important to its success.

 

Expansions open a new world up for the player not only in skills and masteries, but new lands and area which to play. Yes it is paying for more content, yes you have to pay money for it, but it is a one time purchase per expansion everything else gives no advantage to the players except being able to come up with unique builds. The build from Hot for example does not work as well for the area beyond it in PoF. and visa versa. You can use them of course, but you are at a disadvantage either way.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Not another one expecting everything is for free.

You can enter fractals and play tier 1 and tier 2 without being kicked. That is the content you had when vanilla released and what you payed for. tier 3 and 4 are released later on and are considered part of the expansion. Either pay for the content or stop wining. You got exactly what you payed for!

[MachineManXX.9746]

I believe the title of this thread caused everyone to focus on the misguided "pay to win" nonsense and kind of ignore some of the ideas presented in the post. (and rightfully so). I do like the idea of core elite specializations. Guardian, Necro, Ranger etc. Elite. A specialization that can only be chosen in the third slot like the other elites. As the OP stated it could focus more on shouts, or symbols or whatever. As an elite, they could add something to core specs without changing the balance of the current elites. Not saying I'm totally for or against it, but it does seem worthwhile to explore the idea.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Pretty much every game with expansions would be “P2W” as they usually offer things that non-supporters will not have access to such as skills in the case of GW2.

 

Since it’s usually expected that games have expansions, and since they most often offer these things, it should be considered the norm. Those complaining about it as either new to online games or have been oblivious all these years.

 

P2W is where a player gets an advantage over others through an in-game store with real world currency which they could not have gotten through any other means. It can be argued to the end of time what an “advantage over others” consists of but I don’t think that’s within the scope of the thread.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I have some sympathy for your situation. I understand that a lot of random people on the internet do not want to do fractals with a player using a core spec. I also understand that starting your own group does not always work. This is so because the same pool of players involved in the meta groups are also a large part of the player pool for any PUG group. This is, unfortunately, the nature of pick-up groups.

 

The truth is that some of the Elite Specs are a requirement in the minds of a lot of players. They are perceived to be better (whether they actually are or not). In some cases, they bring things to the party that complement what those other players are running, and those players don't want to have to adapt to fit the desires of someone they don't know and who does not think the same way they do.

 

You have chosen not to play the Elite Specs, whether you own them or not. If you are not having success with forming your own PUG, you may have to seek out a guild. PUG groups are social units in name only. They are brought together by two things: shared desire for a specific experience; and convenience. Those two things go hand in hand in the minds of those people.

 

Guilds are a different type of social unit. People in guilds -- unless the guild is a meta guild -- are more likely to care more about whether they enjoy playing with you than they are about what build you play. People generally have more personal investment in guilds, and are thus more likely to be accommodating.

 

Yeah, it stinks that you would have to forego the convenience of drop-in gaming available via PUG's. However, you are the one choosing to step outside of the expected PUG norms. Therefore, you might need to step away from PUG convenience. You might even find that playing with a group of friends is a better experience.

 

Sure, ANet might someday make core specs the equal of Elite specs. Pigs might learn to fly before then, though. In the meantime, you can choose to stop doing the content you want to, accept the PUG meta, or take a different approach.

 

Misusing a negative term to try to build agreement that what you want is needed is not going to convince ANet. ANet management are old-time gamers, from back when P2W did not mean, "Anything that costs money that a given player does not want to pay for."

 

Good luck.

[Kal Spiro.9745]

I knew coming in that I wasn't going to agree, and of course I don't. How are expansions pay to win because the players, whom ANet has no control over, don't want you to play with them? I've never had an issue with a PUG kicking me, and I play any number of different classes and character builds, none of which are in any way meta, because I don't bother to learn the meta. I play what appeals to me, not anyone else.

 

The fact that this seems to constantly happen to you, though, suggests to me that maybe the problem isn't your class, but the way you play.

[Crossaber.8934]

Fractal actually doesn't require any of the elite spec to begin with, what the problem is players wanted to do the content with certain class with certain build, thats happens to be elite spec. If one day, a high end fractal was discovered using some core spec makes fight easier and faster, they will ask for core class instead. It is human nature's fault, not the game.

 

For any pve instanced content, i only run with somebody i know, because i want to do content with whatever i want play, not somebody wants me to play, therefore i rather solo roam in wvw, i can run whatever i want and still find fun.

[Draknar.5748]

I can honestly say I've never seen nor heard of anyone being kicked out of a fractals group because of their spec. Well, maybe if we had 3 of the exact same spec I could see maybe asking someone to swap, but truly this sounds like a rare occurrence.

 

I've cleared through fotm 100 and honestly I don't think I've ever even looked to see what weapon/spec people were before we started. (unless like I said everyone was the same thing).

 

Why don't you just create the LFG yourself? They fill up quick in my experience, especially if you're posting for dailies.

[Biff.5312]

This is really a player issue, not a game issue. The game was designed so that you don't have to fill particular 'roles', but players immediately seize on what the 'best' arrangements are and invent must-play roles. The problem isn't the game design - it's too many jerks who care more about maximizing dps than having fun.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > I am suggesting Anet do the same. Buff core guardian utility skills so we dont have a mono build of dragons maw, test of faith, procession of blades.

>

> I don't have a problem with your interest in requesting buffs to the core classes. Just please don't insist that the term "pay to win" is a sufficient argument as to why ANet should do this. Explain how it's good for the community overall, for the paying community, for core-only players, and for free-to-play. Your insistence on stretching the definition of "Pay to Win" to fit your argument distracts from your goal.

 

I think many players confuse the poor work on class design and awfull to terribad balance Anet does to enforce players getting the new gimmicks with B2W.

 

Altough with all the above the Anet B2p can creach a very gray area between B2P and B2W, cause some new gimmicks will always be subpar compared with the older stuff and that might indulge some confusion between those 2.

 

@Fallingfloor.4709, at the end gw2 isnt B2W u cant buy better items on store that will overboost your toon, but u can buy some elite trait that will make u way better and win for w/o much effort still that is not B2W is just Anet being what they are a bunch of lamers since they dont care about game balance towards a decent gameplay.

[Fallingfloor.4709]

> @"Boulder.3589" said:

> > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > Im seeing the same redundant arguments against what i mean by "gateing". It doent have to be strictly game code like the # of ecto refinement in crafting. It can also be community.

> >

> > We can all agree that there is Eliteism going on. We can also agree that there are casuals. Im looking for a casual fractal guild. I did not find one in map chat. Now i am on the forums. So far no one has helped me. The only logical conclusion is that core guardian is so bad even casuals dont want it.

> >

> > Don't give me B*** S*** telling me to create a "casual" LFG because i have sat at my computer waiting for 2 hours doing that. it doesnt work. Even when a party is started casuals cant even complete chaos fractal. Everyone wipes and i gotta spend 5 minutes soloing the Gladiator or reviving. Which, BTW, enforces my preference for Honor over Dragonhunter.

>

> You just proved that you absolutely did not get "gated". You got a party started and got into the fractal and played, and kept wiping. Wiping is not getting gated. Lack of new but decently skilled players with a willingness to learn is why you were wiping. And experienced players not willing to put up with a newbie with a spec that they think will slow them down is getting you kicked from groups that can complete the fractal. I guess all you can do is keep looking for some tolerant but experienced players or other like minded people. If you played a higher dps spec you wouldn't be kicked from groups that could actually finish the fractal and you would have no need to have "preference for Honor over Dragonhunter". They're well in their right to refuse to play with someone using a spec that doesn't fit with what they're looking for in a team mate too.

 

Are you suggesting that i would be able to level up in fractals if i bought Heart of thorns for dragonhunter?

 

That sounds a lot like Pay to win.

[arenta.2953]

> @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> My primary concern is surrounding my main character. The guardian. I picked Guardian to play like the description in character creation. Now, since the introduction of firebrand and dragonhunter I get kicked from fractals for not running those. I find this counterproductive to the whole objective of GW2 which is to eliminate the RPG trinity of DPS-Healer-Tank.

>

> Onto my point here in the title. I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter. IDK if its just i keep finding A**H**** but i'd rather have 10x better survivability taking honor INSTEAD of dragonhunter and doing only 10k more dps.

>

> It's as if you need to buy the expansion to fully participate in even base game content. My Idea is a Guardian Elite Specialization where you are just as important but used symbols and shouts instead of traps and burst or tomes and burn.

>

> If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

 

being gated from content isn't p2w.

 

for example. i want to join fractals in my Deadeye. which i got from expansion. i get kicked for not using base thief.

 

its a class thing, not expansion. and it changes nearly every balance patch.

 

heck Deadeye got shit on in sPvP, WvW zergs, Fractals, and even PVE a bit (kneel is a curse)

but last balance patch, now PvE is great, fractals.......well my guild is happy to have me

 

still no luck on Zergs and sPvP.

but hey, i got a Tempest for that (Screw weaver. Tempest overload is more fun)

 

it is annoying when people kick ya for a class they dislike, but thats always been a thing (back before HoT, if you go in Arah dungeon as an engi...you got so much hate....but now i'm pulling their groups)

[Fallingfloor.4709]

> @"arenta.2953" said:

> > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > My primary concern is surrounding my main character. The guardian. I picked Guardian to play like the description in character creation. Now, since the introduction of firebrand and dragonhunter I get kicked from fractals for not running those. I find this counterproductive to the whole objective of GW2 which is to eliminate the RPG trinity of DPS-Healer-Tank.

> >

> > Onto my point here in the title. I am being gated from content simply because i want to play a certain way. I'd like to join a fractal guild but even that is gated because as i start playing they harass me to get dragon hunter. IDK if its just i keep finding A**H**** but i'd rather have 10x better survivability taking honor INSTEAD of dragonhunter and doing only 10k more dps.

> >

> > It's as if you need to buy the expansion to fully participate in even base game content. My Idea is a Guardian Elite Specialization where you are just as important but used symbols and shouts instead of traps and burst or tomes and burn.

> >

> > If you dont mind a Hammer Guardian i'd like to join a fractal guild. I'm having no luck in Map chat.

>

> being gated from content isn't p2w.

>

> for example. i want to join fractals in my Deadeye. which i got from expansion. i get kicked for not using base thief.

>

> its a class thing, not expansion. and it changes nearly every balance patch.

>

> heck Deadeye got kitten on in sPvP, WvW zergs, Fractals, and even PVE a bit (kneel is a curse)

> but last balance patch, now PvE is great, fractals.......well my guild is happy to have me

>

> still no luck on Zergs and sPvP.

> but hey, i got a Tempest for that (Screw weaver. Tempest overload is more fun)

>

> it is annoying when people kick ya for a class they dislike, but thats always been a thing (back before HoT, if you go in Arah dungeon as an engi...you got so much hate....but now i'm pulling their groups)

 

This is what i needed to hear. This addresses my points. thanks. It doesnt make me feel any better. It seems like snobby players are a bigger problem not necessarily anet's "live services" tendencies.

[Fallingfloor.4709]

Actually, no, I take back my above statement. Expansions can be limited to terrain updates. Packaging things like legendary armor with expansions is "live services" oriented.

[Boulder.3589]

> @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > @"Boulder.3589" said:

> > > @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> > > Im seeing the same redundant arguments against what i mean by "gateing". It doent have to be strictly game code like the # of ecto refinement in crafting. It can also be community.

> > >

> > > We can all agree that there is Eliteism going on. We can also agree that there are casuals. Im looking for a casual fractal guild. I did not find one in map chat. Now i am on the forums. So far no one has helped me. The only logical conclusion is that core guardian is so bad even casuals dont want it.

> > >

> > > Don't give me B*** S*** telling me to create a "casual" LFG because i have sat at my computer waiting for 2 hours doing that. it doesnt work. Even when a party is started casuals cant even complete chaos fractal. Everyone wipes and i gotta spend 5 minutes soloing the Gladiator or reviving. Which, BTW, enforces my preference for Honor over Dragonhunter.

> >

> > You just proved that you absolutely did not get "gated". You got a party started and got into the fractal and played, and kept wiping. Wiping is not getting gated. Lack of new but decently skilled players with a willingness to learn is why you were wiping. And experienced players not willing to put up with a newbie with a spec that they think will slow them down is getting you kicked from groups that can complete the fractal. I guess all you can do is keep looking for some tolerant but experienced players or other like minded people. If you played a higher dps spec you wouldn't be kicked from groups that could actually finish the fractal and you would have no need to have "preference for Honor over Dragonhunter". They're well in their right to refuse to play with someone using a spec that doesn't fit with what they're looking for in a team mate too.

>

> Are you suggesting that i would be able to level up in fractals if i bought Heart of thorns for dragonhunter?

>

> That sounds a lot like Pay to win.

 

Ok I will half agree with you there to be fair. Some, probably not all, elite specs do offer better performance over core specs but higher performance (very minor in same cases) is not required to complete fractals. You can "level up" in fractals with a core spec too. You can get in there and play and complete the content. You're not gated as you claimed earlier. Your frustrations are caused mainly by fact that most people are not willing to tolerate a sub-optimal character for the purpose of what they are trying to achieve for their version of fun, which is usually efficient smooth runs. Would be nice if people played with you despite this but they have a right to go for what is fun for them too while leaving you frustrated.

 

If I were in your position, I would learn the content I want to do up to a level where I can lead, then find beginners willing to learn from me, teach them how to do it, and lead the group through the content and successfully complete it while setting the group's tone and attitude as a leader.

[Moogri.1935]

Sure, people could just be scapegoating you for the group failing based solely on you playing core guardian, but if it is consistently always happening, then the problem may be you.

 

> @"Fallingfloor.4709" said:

> only 10k more dps.

 

The average pug doesn't even do that much. So you're saying you're doing no damage on your build? :^)

 

[blambidy.3216]

Never really had that towards me before. Only time it’s wther through raids that has happened. You might keep on going to a group of Guildies. Well usually those decide to kick like that. However most of the time I never get toxicity in fractals. But there are few moments where people are being salty. If your doing t4s I could see that but if your doing t1. I doubt there are people who do that.

 

How often I really doubt you get kicked each time. I’ve had a few free players in a random group I went in and we all played perfectly fine. You honestly probably got in just the wrong time.

 

If you need a guild that wants to do fractals. You can join the guild I’m in. Just add me if you want and we will happily bring you in. But having someone be kicked like that is rare.

[miraude.2107]

So did you make a post on the Looking for Guild forum to find a guild that would take you on fractals as a no expac account? Did you try asking in chat in game with a 'LFG that will take orig guardian on fractal runs'? Did you go into the Looking for Group forum asking about guilds that will take no expac accounts on fractal runs?

 

As I have had to tell people when I ran a guild eons ago, _if you can't make the effort to look/ask around first, I can't be expected to do it for you._

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

That's not pay to win, that's pay to upgrade from the free trial.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:

> That's not pay to win, that's pay to upgrade from the free trial.

 

Well you cant post to forums on a free account lol. Some people actually still just have the paid core game or just prefer those specs.

 

**added** the specs should be even, also where is the core elite spec? (not asking the one I quoted lol)