Difficulty

[Deimos.4263]

When I first logged into game that day, guild chat was filled with friends who normally don't curse freaking out about that golem boss, and loudly so. Now that we know the mechanic, it's pretty straightforward and "easy". (Having 3-5 people certainly helps over trying to solo it, too. Everyone tries to solo new story content.)

 

That said, why does new content always have to come with new "tricks" like mechanics, one-shots, etc? A little is fine, but I want to use the skills I trained and practiced for 80 levels plus all those masteries. I don't really want to have to learn new tricks constantly for each new fight. Some may find that appealing, but many of us do not. There must be other ways to make things challenging without changing the rules of the game.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> What kind of adjustments would you expect?

>

> There's been some negative feedback to that boss, but we've also seen a lot of positive feedback as well. It's just not as loud as the negative (which is almost always the case in these situations).

>

> I'm personally pretty happy with the balance of the fight, bar a few bugs here and there that need to / have been ironed out.

>

> I've seen players struggle with the encounter when not completing it correctly, and I've also seen a single player take him down in under 60 seconds (without cheesing him at all). If we nerf his health, more players may take him down without feeling any challenge from the encounter's mechanics (as they wouldn't see them). If we reduce the damage done from his attacks, more players may feel they can just ignore those mechanics entirely.

>

> It's not black and white, for sure. I don't think it's perfect, but I also don't think it's as bad as the exaggerative rhetoric has sometimes been.

 

LOVE the golem!! DON'T touch it! It did take a while for me to realize the mechanic, apparently because i tried it too early (like i had a ley line thingy on me from the previous part, and used it right away with no apparent result, which threw me off for like 50% of the fight), maybe that's a issue, but overall it was a nice fight. Even without using the mechanic, it just makes the fight a bit longer, not really harder.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> > > @"JayMack.8295" said:

> > > I understand why that boss is annoying until you discover its mechanics, but once you do, what's so difficult about it?

> > >

> > > I think the biggest issue with it is it has an attack that ONLY hits you from range, but that's never really explained anywhere other than experimenting. I had no idea its bouncy ball attack COULDN'T hit you if you were under it until 3 quarters of the way through. THAT made it frustrating, but once I figured it out, it was no harder than any other boss.

> > >

> > > I absolutely think the attacks for that boss are poorly executed, i.e. the aforementioned ranged bouncy ball attack, but other than that, everything you need to beat it is taught to you in the lead up with Braham escorting the cubs.

> >

> > I'm genuinely curious: Why do you consider the main projectile attack frustrating? Often times, in boss encounters, the name of the game is plan, execute, observe, learn, repeat, and that interaction is what makes success so sweet to obtain.

> >

> > With that in mind, what makes the situation you described above painful, rather than rewarding?

>

> Not that guy, but I consider the revive mechanic that has been appearing more and more to be an issue.

>

> I understand it is suppose to be a catch up mechanic for the bad players, however I don't think it actually helps them and does nothing but worsen the experience for every one. Ideally you want the mechanic to help the players progress, however what revive does is basically force the player to die over and over again doing a couple hp percentage at a time because they are not really getting better and the mechanic is not helping them. All it does is take away the tension from everyone.

>

> I think a better option would be a some sort of stat stacking buff upon death. Say call it determination that gives a flat 5-10% boost to literally everything. Die again? Get another 10% and it increases upon a certain amount. You are never going to magically make the players better in 20 minutes, but you can force to literally make the characters better with stat buffs. This way it keeps the tension in because you can still technically fail, but players will be eventually able to beat it by themselves. Good players will do it with 0 to 1 death, some will do it with 2-4 and others can do it with 10 or more death. Maybe add a check point somewhere so fights don't get too dragged out. The result is still going to be the same but the experience will not be cheapened anymore.

>

> Difficulty slider is harder to implement, but I think this sounds feasible. What do you think?

 

I think a better idea would be a checkpoint system. You can completely fail the boss, but have a checkpoint to rapidly start again right before the boss. You may fail over and over again, but you would be able to immedietly try again and think about what it is you're doing wrong. You may keep failing, but you have the opportunity to learn.

[Zet.9130]

Adrian - I did the Golem on 3/13. Didn't pick up on several of the "special" attack features. But slogged on then realized that I needed to disable the support drones. Finished with the support drones or so I thought, they no longer appeared. The Charr then gave unlimited leyline attacks and I wailed away with the Golem's health going down incredibly slow. After a fight of 30+ minutes the Golem finally reached 10% health and then just stood there. I freaked out, cursed the game and had a bit of a hissy fit. Went got a drink of water and I stared at the screen. Possibly 3-5 minutes went by, I remember going back to the computer and the Golem just stood there. I sat down to reboot and a drone pops up with 2% health. I hit it once or twice and completed the event/mission. I certainly hope that that is a bug and not a feature.

 

ATM I play a MM Scourge I do mostly PvE and it has served me well. First and foremost you need to know it was not fun. I play this game for enjoyment and this wasn't enjoyable. Second I wish to all the gods Anet would quit trying to make all professions mele players. Not all players have the "I gots a big o'le sowrd" mentality. And yeah after spending 30+ intimate minutes with that Golem I'm still not sure of all his "special" features. It may be unique and clever content but it wasn't fun for me.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> > > > @"JayMack.8295" said:

> > > > I understand why that boss is annoying until you discover its mechanics, but once you do, what's so difficult about it?

> > > >

> > > > I think the biggest issue with it is it has an attack that ONLY hits you from range, but that's never really explained anywhere other than experimenting. I had no idea its bouncy ball attack COULDN'T hit you if you were under it until 3 quarters of the way through. THAT made it frustrating, but once I figured it out, it was no harder than any other boss.

> > > >

> > > > I absolutely think the attacks for that boss are poorly executed, i.e. the aforementioned ranged bouncy ball attack, but other than that, everything you need to beat it is taught to you in the lead up with Braham escorting the cubs.

> > >

> > > I'm genuinely curious: Why do you consider the main projectile attack frustrating? Often times, in boss encounters, the name of the game is plan, execute, observe, learn, repeat, and that interaction is what makes success so sweet to obtain.

> > >

> > > With that in mind, what makes the situation you described above painful, rather than rewarding?

> >

> > Not that guy, but I consider the revive mechanic that has been appearing more and more to be an issue.

> >

> > I understand it is suppose to be a catch up mechanic for the bad players, however I don't think it actually helps them and does nothing but worsen the experience for every one. Ideally you want the mechanic to help the players progress, however what revive does is basically force the player to die over and over again doing a couple hp percentage at a time because they are not really getting better and the mechanic is not helping them. All it does is take away the tension from everyone.

> >

> > I think a better option would be a some sort of stat stacking buff upon death. Say call it determination that gives a flat 5-10% boost to literally everything. Die again? Get another 10% and it increases upon a certain amount. You are never going to magically make the players better in 20 minutes, but you can force to literally make the characters better with stat buffs. This way it keeps the tension in because you can still technically fail, but players will be eventually able to beat it by themselves. Good players will do it with 0 to 1 death, some will do it with 2-4 and others can do it with 10 or more death. Maybe add a check point somewhere so fights don't get too dragged out. The result is still going to be the same but the experience will not be cheapened anymore.

> >

> > Difficulty slider is harder to implement, but I think this sounds feasible. What do you think?

>

> I think a better idea would be a checkpoint system. You can completely fail the boss, but have a checkpoint to rapidly start again right before the boss. You may fail over and over again, but you would be able to immedietly try again and think about what it is you're doing wrong. You may keep failing, but you have the opportunity to learn.

 

The issue I think is I think you vastly underestimate how bad some players are. I very much doubt people will suddenly learn how the game works in 30 minutes if all they do is die, revive, zerg the boss without paying attention to anything. So having a stat buff is basically catering to a certain point, as long as you cap it somewhere reasonable then I think it should be an ok compromise.

 

This game is a bit weird. On one hand it is incredibly accessible and encourages cooperation among players so it attracts a lot of players who basically want to treat the game like a visual novel. On the other hand the combat system and skill building makes the game more difficult just by design. You can't make a golem boss that stand still and do auto attacks when every character has 2 invul frames as a baseline.

 

So for those players, I think having a bit more than checkpoint is ok.

[Rufo.3716]

I mostly PvP but I do like to do the story quests and open up the new maps and all. I did find this newest episode very frustrating with all the puzzles. The golem fight was very annoying. I don't care for all these advanced mechanics to take down a boss. Leave those for people who raid. I just want to get in there and use my combat skills to kill something, not have to run around and click this thing here, then go kill this minor mob over there. I'd rather plan for attacks and avoid have to avoid said attack, then go back to whacking on the thing.

[Donari.5237]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> I think a better idea would be a checkpoint system. You can completely fail the boss, but have a checkpoint to rapidly start again right before the boss. You may fail over and over again, but you would be able to immediately try again and think about what it is you're doing wrong. You may keep failing, but you have the opportunity to learn.

 

They did this in the attack on the Pale Tree. Each death just popped you back to the edge of the platform, still very much in the fight. I remember my first time in there well. It involved over 45 minutes, getting stripped nude, and shouting obscenities at the monitor "JUST F'G DIE" with my husband asking mildly behind me "What did -I- do?" :) And I loved it, actually, since I have an occasional craving to chew glass. Downing that horror felt so good. (For the record, I was on a thief, had no pre-knowledge of the fight, and seldom cuss, for I save cussing for special occasions that need the emphasis. This needed it).

 

But that's a bit much to ask people to do as a regular part of experiencing the story.

[NitricRose.1863]

I found the Golem boss tedious and boring.

I probably do not know what all the special mechanics are.

The leyline attack did not work about half the time -- did nothing, then I had to start over, collect more charges, try again.

I could have done a better job of staying close to him so that the range attack didn't hurt me.

But after realizing the revive mechanic meant I could not die, and there was no penalty, I stopped caring. Just keep slogging through until all those hit points were gone.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 suggestion of an actual penalty with checkpoint would be better.

It also took me a short while to realize at the end that it was time to make a direct attack.

 

I find that these large boss encounters tend to be very tedious and rarely fun. Some of the elites out in the open

world are far more interesting. I guess it must be fun to design these grand, spectacular and wicked bosses, but when the mechanics

fail, the boss is simply difficult due to too many hit points, there's no penalty for failing, what's really the point of playing against it?

 

I would rather meet up against a series of elites or easy champions. There are still mechanics to learn and certain techniques to use.

I suppose that may be too easy for the better players.

 

 

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"FogLeg.9354" said:

> I am afraid this has already turned into usual "learn to play, noob" thread, which just means people having trouble with bosses will quit the game. But thanks for taking time to put down some answers, Cameron.

 

I have to comment you on those questions though, and on Camerons answers, they both are very good and are pretty in depth as well.

It's clearly that the picture Cameron is painting is mostly that it's a very polarizing subject because it's ultimately so subjective it's hard to get the balance just right. It's both "learn to play noob" as well as, what are the pain-points that don't just "make it easier because it sucks". Not that either site is wrong or right, more that where the hell in this do you get the right balance.

[NovaFlame.3964]

I'd like to add another voice of positive feedback about the golem. It iterated and expanded on mechanics introduced earlier in the instance, in what I thought was a rather intuitive way. Its attacks didn't feel particularly punishing (though admittedly, I didn't try to range the boss), but they also weren't completely ignorable like some bosses elsewhere in the game. It was a dramatic, engaging, and entertaining fight. I thoroughly enjoyed the encounter's premise and mechanics, and thought the difficulty balance was in a decent spot - perhaps easier than some veterans would like, and harder than what some other players might prefer, but striking a decent balance between the two. I'd love to see similarly mechanics-oriented fights in the future.

[Healix.5819]

Giving players an easy mode could be as simple as giving them boons, rather than actually changing anything. If it was possible to create a item that could only be used in story instances for example, it could offer something like a 50% damage reduction, regeneration and a damage boost. It could even work like a pet that acted as support (and repair), which they could sell skins for. The problem however is that this could quickly turn into the default, so to prevent that, its effectiveness could be based on the play time and number of deaths. They could also disable the achievements, which they'd also need to do for groups.

 

As for players failing over the mechanics, show tips when they die or after a set amount of time. It also need to be _really_ obvious, just look at season 3 where the NPCs practically explained the bloodstone and some people still couldn't figure it out.

 

> @"JayMack.8295" said:

> I think the biggest issue with it is it has an attack that ONLY hits you from range, but that's never really explained anywhere other than experimenting. I had no idea its bouncy ball attack COULDN'T hit you if you were under it until 3 quarters of the way through. THAT made it frustrating, but once I figured it out, it was no harder than any other boss.

 

If you stand under the boss during its shield phase, it will do an AoE to kill you, which has the benefit of stopping it attacks for several seconds. How the boss prioritizes it attacks seems to be very buggy however, so it may actually never do it, whereas sometimes it spams it (the one time I had a pet).

 

You also don't need to stand under it to avoid it. Anywhere between the center and the middle between the center and outer edge is safe, since it's actually shooting to your sides in a > pattern, with one arm then the next. When you get hit, it's actually because you ran into it, rather than it shooting at you.

[Quarktastic.1027]

My biggest gripe with the golem boss was that condition builds are particularly bad at killing it. The energy core takes increased power damage, but not condition damage. It took me nearly 5 shield phases to finally get the boss to the final phase (25% health) with my raid specced condi renegade. My dragonhunter in mismatched power gear likely would have gotten it in 2 phases or less, had I not accidentally instakilled the boss by throwing up a wall of reflection.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> What kind of adjustments would you expect?

>

> There's been some negative feedback to that boss, but we've also seen a lot of positive feedback as well. It's just not as loud as the negative (which is almost always the case in these situations).

>

> I'm personally pretty happy with the balance of the fight, bar a few bugs here and there that need to / have been ironed out.

>

> I've seen players struggle with the encounter when not completing it correctly, and I've also seen a single player take him down in under 60 seconds (without cheesing him at all). If we nerf his health, more players may take him down without feeling any challenge from the encounter's mechanics (as they wouldn't see them). If we reduce the damage done from his attacks, more players may feel they can just ignore those mechanics entirely.

>

> It's not black and white, for sure. I don't think it's perfect, but I also don't think it's as bad as the exaggerative rhetoric has sometimes been.

 

I feel like the golem just had the right amount of difficulty for a story instance. Only the free rezzes from the NPCs felt weird?

[Toeofdoom.6152]

> @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> > @"JayMack.8295" said:

> > I understand why that boss is annoying until you discover its mechanics, but once you do, what's so difficult about it?

> >

> > I think the biggest issue with it is it has an attack that ONLY hits you from range, but that's never really explained anywhere other than experimenting. I had no idea its bouncy ball attack COULDN'T hit you if you were under it until 3 quarters of the way through. THAT made it frustrating, but once I figured it out, it was no harder than any other boss.

> >

> > I absolutely think the attacks for that boss are poorly executed, i.e. the aforementioned ranged bouncy ball attack, but other than that, everything you need to beat it is taught to you in the lead up with Braham escorting the cubs.

>

> I'm genuinely curious: Why do you consider the main projectile attack frustrating? Often times, in boss encounters, the name of the game is plan, execute, observe, learn, repeat, and that interaction is what makes success so sweet to obtain.

>

> With that in mind, what makes the situation you described above painful, rather than rewarding?

 

I found this frustrating because I brought a full melee spellbreaker (to get used to it for raids) with no defensive utils and minimal sustain, rapidly realised that was a big mistake here, tried to reset the fight to switch out build and had a "helpful" npc insist I stay alive :lol:

 

It wasn't a huge deal, but for me having a way to actually reset would've allowed me to complete the loop you describe.

[Aidda.8027]

Fighting aside (because you can always take forever no armor doing a few percentages at a time if it is really bad) traps need to be skippable. Either an NPC that completes it or like in this up with you in the golem suit and the color traps you fail twice and it moves on. I made enough money porting people in one of the puzzles to make a legendary.

 

> @"Healix.5819" said:

 

> As for players failing over the mechanics, show tips when they die or after a set amount of time. It also need to be _really_ obvious, just look at season 3 where the NPCs practically explained the bloodstone and some people still couldn't figure it out.

 

 

Sometimes these instructions come way too late and it could have been easier. In this golem fight, having the energy special action keyway before made sense and I hope in the future boss fights there are breadcrumbs like this.

 

[Chakchakheaven.8761]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Given the large amount of negative feedback about the Golem boss in episode 2, could we see some adjustments to this boss coming?

 

What negative feedback? The boss is perfect whats wrong with it?

[Shirlias.8104]

Talking about difficulty, what's your target and eventually what are the reasons which let you reconsider a specific encounter difficulty?

 

To make an example, the "Eater of Souls" fight.

Why did you decide to nerf it?

 

* Wasn't it tested before PoF release?

* Becuase of the large number of complaints about the fight?

[Raizel.8175]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> > What kind of adjustments would you expect?

> >

> > There's been some negative feedback to that boss, but we've also seen a lot of positive feedback as well. It's just not as loud as the negative (which is almost always the case in these situations).

> >

> > I'm personally pretty happy with the balance of the fight, bar a few bugs here and there that need to / have been ironed out.

> >

> > I've seen players struggle with the encounter when not completing it correctly, and I've also seen a single player take him down in under 60 seconds (without cheesing him at all). If we nerf his health, more players may take him down without feeling any challenge from the encounter's mechanics (as they wouldn't see them). If we reduce the damage done from his attacks, more players may feel they can just ignore those mechanics entirely.

> >

> > It's not black and white, for sure. I don't think it's perfect, but I also don't think it's as bad as the exaggerative rhetoric has sometimes been.

>

> LOVE the golem!! DON'T touch it! It did take a while for me to realize the mechanic, apparently because i tried it too early (like i had a ley line thingy on me from the previous part, and used it right away with no apparent result, which threw me off for like 50% of the fight), maybe that's a issue, but overall it was a nice fight. Even without using the mechanic, it just makes the fight a bit longer, not really harder.

>

 

I second this. The golem was ok; only the reaction time for the bouncy ball attack felt somewhat short, though that could've been my shortcoming since I did the episode after a stressful day of work. Actually I'd like to have some more difficulty-diversity both in story- and in OW-content. It's a game and not some sort of interactive movie.

[CptAurellian.9537]

To me, the golem wasn't particularly exciting. The small golem mechanic was obvious from the previous enemies, so in the end it wasn't so much more than an oversized dummy golem that sometimes tries to hit back.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> I feel like the golem just had the right amount of difficulty for a story instance. Only the free rezzes from the NPCs felt weird?

 

I couldn't agree more here.

The free rezzes from NPCs gutted the challenge and took away any sense of accomplishment I felt beating the encounter.

[Rap Tiger.1257]

I will give my opinion, it is very easy to play solo, I enjoyed facing balthazar which was a very good challenge as well as that soul eater and the stories of HOT, but you guys from the arena are making the game a lot easier and letting players accustomed to only tighten 1 and lazy to use dodge, block and other skills ..... this last story practically almost did not die, only in the part of the robot that invaded the tribe, to fall at most 2 times .... has to make the game more difficult in general? people need to learn to have skill with the classes and to face challenges, I use the same build for PVE, PVP and WVW and I do not see these difficulties all in PVE even with Build for PVP, even the initial stories of guild players wars 2 seems more difficult than the current

 

Excuse my english

[otto.5684]

> @"Cameron Rich.3905" said:

> What kind of adjustments would you expect?

>

> There's been some negative feedback to that boss, but we've also seen a lot of positive feedback as well. It's just not as loud as the negative (which is almost always the case in these situations).

>

> I'm personally pretty happy with the balance of the fight, bar a few bugs here and there that need to / have been ironed out.

>

> I've seen players struggle with the encounter when not completing it correctly, and I've also seen a single player take him down in under 60 seconds (without cheesing him at all). If we nerf his health, more players may take him down without feeling any challenge from the encounter's mechanics (as they wouldn't see them). If we reduce the damage done from his attacks, more players may feel they can just ignore those mechanics entirely.

>

> It's not black and white, for sure. I don't think it's perfect, but I also don't think it's as bad as the exaggerative rhetoric has sometimes been.

 

I do not think difficulty is the primary issue, but some of the bosses where terribly designed. This surely my point of view, but the general feedback tend to be similar. To give you and idea as well, I am someone who primarily PvPs and can solo vast majority of open world champions. I am not the most skilled, but no beginner by any means, and I have preference for difficult solo PvE encounters.

 

Example of good encounter, first fight with Balthazar. Constant engagement, the boss does not become invulnerable and no cheesy mechanics. You need to dodge/block/evade, and you need to time it correctly. The visual ques are clear. I think that Mordermoth fight is the best solo story designed in the game. It is difficult, but no cheesy mechanics. There are mechanics, but they are clear and they do not suffocate the fight.

 

Example of bad encounter (and there have been many as of late) is eater of souls. I defeated the boss first time before nerf, but the fight was just lame. Mostly unavoidable mechanics. I was just able to beat it through brute strength (skill + gear), but I know most people struggled with it, because it did not take in consideration the variance in skill levels. Another example of bad fight is Scruffy at the end of LS4 Epis 1. Wholly crap, that was terrible. Gimmicky mechanics, extremely long fight. Too much visual clutter. The vast majority of the area covered in red circles. And if you get downed someone revives you. This removes any tension from the fight. This is becoming a trend lately. You get downed easily, because the boss either does mega unavoidable damage or the fighting area gets covered in million red circles. And when you are downed you are instantly revived. How is that fun?!

 

To summarize:

1. No extremely long fights.

2. No vague or unclear mechanics, which results in unnecessarily long fight.

3. No visual clutter.

4. No million red circles.

5. No unavoidable mechanics.

6. No revival.

 

There has been much of the above in PoF and LS4 in particular.

 

And lastly, reminder, story content is supposed to appeal to everyone. It does not and should not be easy. At the same time, the difficulty and the mechanics should be straight forward enough that a 6th grader can understand them and progress through the story, without the boss fights/mechanics become a boring time sink.

 

TL;dr version: If the boss encounter lasts for the average player more than 3 minutes, then it was not designed correctly.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Chakchakheaven.8761" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > Given the large amount of negative feedback about the Golem boss in episode 2, could we see some adjustments to this boss coming?

>

> What negative feedback? The boss is perfect whats wrong with it?

 

I linked further down one of the threads that fed back on it. There were a few plus Reddit threads as well and many in game comments unhappy about the boss.

 

I of course appreciate there will be some players who liked it

[Rauderi.8706]

Specific to the golem fight, about the only issue I had that made it worthy of breaking my keyboard was the way that one of the AoE attacks spawned. (Maybe the "bouncy ball"?) It was the projectile that would start about 300-450ish away from the golem and then travel. Very painful and utterly obnoxious to try to dodge, partially because there was seemingly no delay in it appearing and suddenly ripping 1/3 of my HP per tick.

Otherwise, the fight was fairly standard puzzle boss faire. Though, even with swiftness, I doubt I'm getting the 3-minute achievement without help due to the way the golems are spread out.

 

At least that particular fight wasn't the usual mouse-throwing CC-fest we've gotten used to!