[Feedback] Serpent's Ire

[Linken.6345]

> @"CedarDog.9723" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > Break bars have always scaled _incredibly_ harshly, it's been that way since HoT and Anet have never adjusted it.

> >

> > This sadly.

> >

> > Heck, the Muckstalker bounty in the Desolation is a good example of wonky break bar scaling. Get more than 10 people on that one bounty, especially if they don't bring/know how to CC and/or have good DPS, and watch its health bounce back insanely fast. It becomes an unwinnable battle.

> >

> > I also need to do Serpents' Ire for the backpack but it's getting tiring trying to find anyone willing, first and foremost. :\

>

> Or Zohoqan in the new map. He self-heals pretty quickly. Quickly enough that I have seen the event fail many times. Usually a group of people attempt it, Zohoqan heals to full over and over and the people give up and leave. Awesome and fun content. :)

 

well tell them to not stand in the blue circles to let him heal then?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> >

> > Dear ArenaNet, please consider the fact that not every class has unlimited access to meaningful CC's

>

> But this statement is objectively false. Every class does in fact have CCs both soft and hard to counter break bars, just because they choose not to use them doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist at all and you can make absurd claims like this on the forum.

 

yeah some people can't think outside the box of "muh meta benchmark weaver 156k+ dps optimal set up"

[Alek Seven.2374]

I like Serpents Ire, what i dont like is being stunlocked by Greg.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> There is a difference between Triple Trouble and Serpents Ire: TT was announced big at the time it was released in the course of a feature update, and [it was described](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-21-2014/ "it was described") as the most difficult and demanding event, explicitly requiring organization:

> > The Great Jungle Wurm

> >The incessant pounding of the mysterious probes has woken up big trouble: an oversized jungle wurm with three giant heads is ravaging Bloodtide Coast! Band together with other heroes to confront and defeat the ravening threat! Be warned: this battle will challenge even the best and bravest that Tyria has to offer! Put your skills to the ultimate test in this epic encounter that will require savvy, determination, and large-scale coordination.

>

> Serpents Ire, on the other hand, wasn't introduced. It was simply brought with Path of Fire, without any introduction, like a trojan horse. You'd expect a meta event with moderate difficulty, like in HoT, but actually get something as demanding as TT, and nobody knows it. Since the players don't know it, they cannot tell about it, so no player knows about the demands. It's so badly introduced and integrated into the game that almost all players see it as chore instead of challenge and will do it grudgingly once for collection demands and never again. For the players, it's _that PoF meta event that always fails_. Yes, I know that there are eager commanders who organize that regularly, but that's only known to a very small part of players, not widely known.

>

> With TT, this is completely different: every player knows since years that this is a special event only likely to succeed if organized thoroughly. Everyone knows that if a minimum of x players isn't at the start, the organization cannot even begin. Nobody tries this event with the misconception that only a crowd of people is required to hack away some enemies.

 

So having players use CC skills is too demanding now?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> > There is a difference between Triple Trouble and Serpents Ire: TT was announced big at the time it was released in the course of a feature update, and [it was described](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-21-2014/ "it was described") as the most difficult and demanding event, explicitly requiring organization:

> > > The Great Jungle Wurm

> > >The incessant pounding of the mysterious probes has woken up big trouble: an oversized jungle wurm with three giant heads is ravaging Bloodtide Coast! Band together with other heroes to confront and defeat the ravening threat! Be warned: this battle will challenge even the best and bravest that Tyria has to offer! Put your skills to the ultimate test in this epic encounter that will require savvy, determination, and large-scale coordination.

> >

> > Serpents Ire, on the other hand, wasn't introduced. It was simply brought with Path of Fire, without any introduction, like a trojan horse. You'd expect a meta event with moderate difficulty, like in HoT, but actually get something as demanding as TT, and nobody knows it. Since the players don't know it, they cannot tell about it, so no player knows about the demands. It's so badly introduced and integrated into the game that almost all players see it as chore instead of challenge and will do it grudgingly once for collection demands and never again. For the players, it's _that PoF meta event that always fails_. Yes, I know that there are eager commanders who organize that regularly, but that's only known to a very small part of players, not widely known.

> >

> > With TT, this is completely different: every player knows since years that this is a special event only likely to succeed if organized thoroughly. Everyone knows that if a minimum of x players isn't at the start, the organization cannot even begin. Nobody tries this event with the misconception that only a crowd of people is required to hack away some enemies.

>

> So having players use CC skills is too demanding now?

 

Nothing wrong with demanding such things - in instanced content. For open world this event feels overtuned. This environment is not easily controlled like raids or fractals where you choose people you play with and actually enforce them to execute certain playstyles.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> > > There is a difference between Triple Trouble and Serpents Ire: TT was announced big at the time it was released in the course of a feature update, and [it was described](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-21-2014/ "it was described") as the most difficult and demanding event, explicitly requiring organization:

> > > > The Great Jungle Wurm

> > > >The incessant pounding of the mysterious probes has woken up big trouble: an oversized jungle wurm with three giant heads is ravaging Bloodtide Coast! Band together with other heroes to confront and defeat the ravening threat! Be warned: this battle will challenge even the best and bravest that Tyria has to offer! Put your skills to the ultimate test in this epic encounter that will require savvy, determination, and large-scale coordination.

> > >

> > > Serpents Ire, on the other hand, wasn't introduced. It was simply brought with Path of Fire, without any introduction, like a trojan horse. You'd expect a meta event with moderate difficulty, like in HoT, but actually get something as demanding as TT, and nobody knows it. Since the players don't know it, they cannot tell about it, so no player knows about the demands. It's so badly introduced and integrated into the game that almost all players see it as chore instead of challenge and will do it grudgingly once for collection demands and never again. For the players, it's _that PoF meta event that always fails_. Yes, I know that there are eager commanders who organize that regularly, but that's only known to a very small part of players, not widely known.

> > >

> > > With TT, this is completely different: every player knows since years that this is a special event only likely to succeed if organized thoroughly. Everyone knows that if a minimum of x players isn't at the start, the organization cannot even begin. Nobody tries this event with the misconception that only a crowd of people is required to hack away some enemies.

> >

> > So having players use CC skills is too demanding now?

>

> Nothing wrong with demanding such things - in instanced content. For open world this event feels overtuned. This environment is not easily controlled like raids or fractals where you choose people you play with and actually enforce them to execute certain playstyles.

 

The amount of CC needed isn’t overtuned.

 

Using CC to break the bars has been a thing in this game for at least 2.5 years now. It’s a highly used mechanic in PvE. Having players use CC skills in encounters that require them is not unreasonable.

[TheGrimm.5624]

I won't speak to the event, but have to agree with some of the above, a lot of people still don't pack any CC. By now you would think people would get it, but a lot still don't or go damage over CC. Break the bar. We should have less bosses that are DPS races and more that require some tactics that aren't on timers. Break the bar or pay the price.

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> I won't speak to the event, but have to agree with some of the above, a lot of people still don't pack any CC. By now you would think people would get it, but a lot still don't or go damage over CC. Break the bar. We should have less bosses that are DPS races and more that require some tactics that aren't on timers. Break the bar or pay the price.

 

I agree. I really think that you dont have to overdue the CC, but pack a few and keep them in those events where it is needed. Depending on your class, you should have atleast 15 skills. I personally pack 5 CC's, which is more enough to do my part. I dont even feel limited in my build choice. I just made it to my liking and counted afterwards.

 

I also see people not adjusting their rotation in fights where CC is needed. Know your CC skills and the cooldown and make sure they are ready when they are needed (so keep them out of the rotation in between)

 

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > >

> > > Dear ArenaNet, please consider the fact that not every class has unlimited access to meaningful CC's

> >

> > But this statement is objectively false. Every class does in fact have CCs both soft and hard to counter break bars, just because they choose not to use them doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist at all and you can make absurd claims like this on the forum.

>

> yeah some people can't think outside the box of "muh meta benchmark weaver 156k+ dps optimal set up"

 

I'm playing Fresh Air S/WH Tempest and outside of LH, Air 4 and Water 4 I really don't have CC, and even those aren't really doing much in the case of Serpent's Ire. And a Open World requiring a specific amount of people having a large amount of CC is terrible if you look at the amount of CC neccessary in Open World on average. It's Open World Content! Which means RANDOMS, if an Open World Event can't be beat by gathering randoms then there is something wrong. Having a Boss require insane amounts of CC is perfectly fine for any instanced Boss but in an open World scenario it's just frustrating.

 

I've once suggested a Boss that can only be damaged by healing him and I have been (rightfully so) heavily critizised that it would just be an almost impossible boss since usually healing builds aren't very common nor good in Open World Content - as is the case with heavy CC Builds but somehow people defend Serpents Ire despite beeing similar to my suggestion in the sense that it requires people to play in a way that you'd usually not play in Open World.

 

And about the comparison between Serpent's Ire and TT, I 100% agree with what @"Silmar Alech.4305" said.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> I've once suggested a Boss that can only be damaged by healing him and I have been (rightfully so) heavily critizised that it would just be an almost impossible boss since usually healing builds aren't very common nor good in Open World Content - as is the case with heavy CC Builds but somehow people defend Serpents Ire despite beeing similar to my suggestion in the sense that it requires people to play in a way that you'd usually not play in Open World.

 

The real issue with that is not every class has access to a healing skill that affects others (i.e. warrior and thief). Even then, the fight would essentially become brain-dead as you can just set your healing/regen skill to autocast and then leave your computer until it's dead.

 

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

>And a Open World requiring a specific amount of people having a large amount of CC is terrible if you look at the amount of CC neccessary in Open World on average. It's Open World Content! Which means RANDOMS, if an Open World Event can't be beat by gathering randoms then there is something wrong. Having a Boss require insane amounts of CC is perfectly fine for any instanced Boss but in an open World scenario it's just frustrating.

 

It being open world has no bearing on whether it needs to be brain-dead easy also. More than 99% of the open world doesn't require anything beyond hitting the #1 skill repeatedly. It's not unreasonable for the remaining less than 1% to require a little more effort/thought. And as for that meta, it is often beaten by a bunch of randoms. It just takes someone with a little initiative to lead it.

 

 

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"DirtyDan.4759" said:

> The only problem is that not everyone knows how combat in this game works, even when reaching the final map of the newest expansion. With cc and good dps this event is doable without any problem.

 

That's a tutorial problem then.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"DirtyDan.4759" said:

> > The only problem is that not everyone knows how combat in this game works, even when reaching the final map of the newest expansion. With cc and good dps this event is doable without any problem.

>

> That's a tutorial problem then.

 

That's a L2P problem.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> > > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > >

> > > > Dear ArenaNet, please consider the fact that not every class has unlimited access to meaningful CC's

> > >

> > > But this statement is objectively false. Every class does in fact have CCs both soft and hard to counter break bars, just because they choose not to use them doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist at all and you can make absurd claims like this on the forum.

> >

> > yeah some people can't think outside the box of "muh meta benchmark weaver 156k+ dps optimal set up"

>

> I'm playing Fresh Air S/WH Tempest and outside of LH, Air 4 and Water 4 I really don't have CC, and even those aren't really doing much in the case of Serpent's Ire. And a Open World requiring a specific amount of people having a large amount of CC is terrible if you look at the amount of CC neccessary in Open World on average. It's Open World Content! Which means RANDOMS, if an Open World Event can't be beat by gathering randoms then there is something wrong. Having a Boss require insane amounts of CC is perfectly fine for any instanced Boss but in an open World scenario it's just frustrating.

>

> I've once suggested a Boss that can only be damaged by healing him and I have been (rightfully so) heavily critizised that it would just be an almost impossible boss since usually healing builds aren't very common nor good in Open World Content - as is the case with heavy CC Builds but somehow people defend Serpents Ire despite beeing similar to my suggestion in the sense that it requires people to play in a way that you'd usually not play in Open World.

>

> And about the comparison between Serpent's Ire and TT, I 100% agree with what @"Silmar Alech.4305" said.

 

 

According to Wiki, CC classifies as...

Control effects

Daze.

Float.

Knockback.

Knockdown.

Launch

Push.

Sink.

Stun.

Fear.

Taunt.

 

Aaaaand the following:

 

Non-disabling control effects

Some conditions will deal damage to enemy Defiance bar without being considered a disabling mechanic (particularly for purposes of various traits, as well as Stability). Some players refer to these conditions as "soft CC". Outside of defiance bar interaction, they serve a similar purpose as disabling control effects by hindering an opponent's actions or movement.

 

Blind.

Chilled.

Crippled.

Immobile.

Slow.

Weakness.

 

Similar effects:

Petrified caused by Thief Basilisk Venom

Elementalist Freeze caused by Deep Freeze (Conjure Frost Bow)

 

With the above in mind, on top of my head, now, Sc/Wh temp should have access to...

Overload earth

earth 5

air 3,

air 4

Water 4

icebow 5

Lightning hammer 3

"Flash freeze"

"aftershock"

 

The majority of the playerbase either does not know what CC is, so they dont bring it, or dont care "cause 134455 bazillion dps rotatiuuuun".

I dont know which it is, in your case, but it is irrelevant. The CC is there. Whether you bring it or not, due to ignorance/boredom, doesnt mean that the whole event should be changed.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Silmar Alech.4305" said:

> > > > There is a difference between Triple Trouble and Serpents Ire: TT was announced big at the time it was released in the course of a feature update, and [it was described](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-21-2014/ "it was described") as the most difficult and demanding event, explicitly requiring organization:

> > > > > The Great Jungle Wurm

> > > > >The incessant pounding of the mysterious probes has woken up big trouble: an oversized jungle wurm with three giant heads is ravaging Bloodtide Coast! Band together with other heroes to confront and defeat the ravening threat! Be warned: this battle will challenge even the best and bravest that Tyria has to offer! Put your skills to the ultimate test in this epic encounter that will require savvy, determination, and large-scale coordination.

> > > >

> > > > Serpents Ire, on the other hand, wasn't introduced. It was simply brought with Path of Fire, without any introduction, like a trojan horse. You'd expect a meta event with moderate difficulty, like in HoT, but actually get something as demanding as TT, and nobody knows it. Since the players don't know it, they cannot tell about it, so no player knows about the demands. It's so badly introduced and integrated into the game that almost all players see it as chore instead of challenge and will do it grudgingly once for collection demands and never again. For the players, it's _that PoF meta event that always fails_. Yes, I know that there are eager commanders who organize that regularly, but that's only known to a very small part of players, not widely known.

> > > >

> > > > With TT, this is completely different: every player knows since years that this is a special event only likely to succeed if organized thoroughly. Everyone knows that if a minimum of x players isn't at the start, the organization cannot even begin. Nobody tries this event with the misconception that only a crowd of people is required to hack away some enemies.

> > >

> > > So having players use CC skills is too demanding now?

> >

> > Nothing wrong with demanding such things - in instanced content. For open world this event feels overtuned. This environment is not easily controlled like raids or fractals where you choose people you play with and actually enforce them to execute certain playstyles.

>

> The amount of CC needed isn’t overtuned.

>

> Using CC to break the bars has been a thing in this game for at least 2.5 years now. It’s a highly used mechanic in PvE. Having players use CC skills in encounters that require them is not unreasonable.

 

It's not about removing CC phase but about toning it down.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"DirtyDan.4759" said:

> > > The only problem is that not everyone knows how combat in this game works, even when reaching the final map of the newest expansion. With cc and good dps this event is doable without any problem.

> >

> > That's a tutorial problem then.

>

> That's a L2P problem.

 

Nope it's a teaching problem, you can't expect some one to pass a test if you don't cover the material, I mean I eventually figured it out through trial and error but then I'm the kind if guy that puts thousands of hours into a game. That said I still have no idea how combo fields work, sure would have been beneficial for ANet to have put mechanics tutorials in this game other than the dodge one. I'm not alone in my thinking either, there's this Youtuber with the same opinion you may of heard of named Woodenpotatoes.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> > > > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear ArenaNet, please consider the fact that not every class has unlimited access to meaningful CC's

> > > >

> > > > But this statement is objectively false. Every class does in fact have CCs both soft and hard to counter break bars, just because they choose not to use them doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist at all and you can make absurd claims like this on the forum.

> > >

> > > yeah some people can't think outside the box of "muh meta benchmark weaver 156k+ dps optimal set up"

> >

> > I'm playing Fresh Air S/WH Tempest and outside of LH, Air 4 and Water 4 I really don't have CC, and even those aren't really doing much in the case of Serpent's Ire. And a Open World requiring a specific amount of people having a large amount of CC is terrible if you look at the amount of CC neccessary in Open World on average. It's Open World Content! Which means RANDOMS, if an Open World Event can't be beat by gathering randoms then there is something wrong. Having a Boss require insane amounts of CC is perfectly fine for any instanced Boss but in an open World scenario it's just frustrating.

> >

> > I've once suggested a Boss that can only be damaged by healing him and I have been (rightfully so) heavily critizised that it would just be an almost impossible boss since usually healing builds aren't very common nor good in Open World Content - as is the case with heavy CC Builds but somehow people defend Serpents Ire despite beeing similar to my suggestion in the sense that it requires people to play in a way that you'd usually not play in Open World.

> >

> > And about the comparison between Serpent's Ire and TT, I 100% agree with what @"Silmar Alech.4305" said.

>

>

> According to Wiki, CC classifies as...

> Control effects

> Daze.

> Float.

> Knockback.

> Knockdown.

> Launch

> Push.

> Sink.

> Stun.

> Fear.

> Taunt.

>

> Aaaaand the following:

>

> Non-disabling control effects

> Some conditions will deal damage to enemy Defiance bar without being considered a disabling mechanic (particularly for purposes of various traits, as well as Stability). Some players refer to these conditions as "soft CC". Outside of defiance bar interaction, they serve a similar purpose as disabling control effects by hindering an opponent's actions or movement.

>

> Blind.

> Chilled.

> Crippled.

> Immobile.

> Slow.

> Weakness.

>

> Similar effects:

> Petrified caused by Thief Basilisk Venom

> Elementalist Freeze caused by Deep Freeze (Conjure Frost Bow)

>

> With the above in mind, on top of my head, now, Sc/Wh temp should have access to...

> Overload earth

> earth 5

> air 3,

> air 4

> Water 4

> icebow 5

> Lightning hammer 3

> "Flash freeze"

> "aftershock"

>

> The majority of the playerbase either does not know what CC is, so they dont bring it, or dont care "cause 134455 bazillion dps rotatiuuuun".

> I dont know which it is, in your case, but it is irrelevant. The CC is there. Whether you bring it or not, due to ignorance/boredom, doesnt mean that the whole event should be changed.

 

Yeah thanks, have you actually ever checked how much soft cc's actually do? They're close to meaningless against a Defiance Bar like those in Serpent's Ire especially when you compare ALL CC's that I have available to other more CC Heavy Classes. Some of them have more CC in their normal rotation than I would have if I limited my rotation to include all CC's and Soft CC's available to me.

And as I have said in my initial post, we were somewhere around 25 People, all of which knew they'd have to CC the 5 guys. Our commander has explained what to do before but we barely got one of the 5 Bosses down to 80%. Which in my eyes is ridiculous. The Damage phase in between the CC's is too short and the Defiance Bar is way too strong.

And yes, there are many people who don't understand defiance bar's which is something that is never, not even once, mentioned in any tutorial or whatever, the entire concept of CC is never explained in the game. And when you start the game you spent almost all of Core Tyria not needing a single CC, then you're tossed into HoT where CC (Or rather defiance bars) is the most prominent Boss Mechanic, but it's still never explained. I really don't know why we won't get a target dummy with a Defiance Bar on the start maps with a similar introduction like the dodge roll practice barriers.

But then again, Serpent's Ire is not instanciated content, it's open World. And if the average Open World Population with their average Builds doesn't have enough CC then there is something wrong with the Open World Event. We really don't need an introduction of any kind of Meta Builds in Open World, it's the one defining feature of Open World that you can actually play whatever you like and have fun with it AND be actually successful with it in Open World.

 

The Serpent's Ire event just doesn't have enough Wiggle Room, I don't mind the fact that it is harder than other Metas, it's just to unforgiving. Even Auric Basin can still be beat after one group killed too early. Even SW VW can be beat if two lanes fail their Boss. Even Tripple Trouble can be beat if one group is struggling (although it's significantly harder than the other mentiones). But Serpent's Ire? You feel like a group of low level's beating on an Elder Dragon or something if you don't have whatever's neccessary. It's like joining a T4 Fractal with a bunch of Lv50's except Fractals are in an instance which makes it something completely different, like raids.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I’ve seen it beaten with more than 50% of the bar left. I’d say that there’s plenty of wiggle room.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> > > > > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear ArenaNet, please consider the fact that not every class has unlimited access to meaningful CC's

> > > > >

> > > > > But this statement is objectively false. Every class does in fact have CCs both soft and hard to counter break bars, just because they choose not to use them doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist at all and you can make absurd claims like this on the forum.

> > > >

> > > > yeah some people can't think outside the box of "muh meta benchmark weaver 156k+ dps optimal set up"

> > >

> > > I'm playing Fresh Air S/WH Tempest and outside of LH, Air 4 and Water 4 I really don't have CC, and even those aren't really doing much in the case of Serpent's Ire. And a Open World requiring a specific amount of people having a large amount of CC is terrible if you look at the amount of CC neccessary in Open World on average. It's Open World Content! Which means RANDOMS, if an Open World Event can't be beat by gathering randoms then there is something wrong. Having a Boss require insane amounts of CC is perfectly fine for any instanced Boss but in an open World scenario it's just frustrating.

> > >

> > > I've once suggested a Boss that can only be damaged by healing him and I have been (rightfully so) heavily critizised that it would just be an almost impossible boss since usually healing builds aren't very common nor good in Open World Content - as is the case with heavy CC Builds but somehow people defend Serpents Ire despite beeing similar to my suggestion in the sense that it requires people to play in a way that you'd usually not play in Open World.

> > >

> > > And about the comparison between Serpent's Ire and TT, I 100% agree with what @"Silmar Alech.4305" said.

> >

> >

> > According to Wiki, CC classifies as...

> > Control effects

> > Daze.

> > Float.

> > Knockback.

> > Knockdown.

> > Launch

> > Push.

> > Sink.

> > Stun.

> > Fear.

> > Taunt.

> >

> > Aaaaand the following:

> >

> > Non-disabling control effects

> > Some conditions will deal damage to enemy Defiance bar without being considered a disabling mechanic (particularly for purposes of various traits, as well as Stability). Some players refer to these conditions as "soft CC". Outside of defiance bar interaction, they serve a similar purpose as disabling control effects by hindering an opponent's actions or movement.

> >

> > Blind.

> > Chilled.

> > Crippled.

> > Immobile.

> > Slow.

> > Weakness.

> >

> > Similar effects:

> > Petrified caused by Thief Basilisk Venom

> > Elementalist Freeze caused by Deep Freeze (Conjure Frost Bow)

> >

> > With the above in mind, on top of my head, now, Sc/Wh temp should have access to...

> > Overload earth

> > earth 5

> > air 3,

> > air 4

> > Water 4

> > icebow 5

> > Lightning hammer 3

> > "Flash freeze"

> > "aftershock"

> >

> > The majority of the playerbase either does not know what CC is, so they dont bring it, or dont care "cause 134455 bazillion dps rotatiuuuun".

> > I dont know which it is, in your case, but it is irrelevant. The CC is there. Whether you bring it or not, due to ignorance/boredom, doesnt mean that the whole event should be changed.

>

> Yeah thanks, have you actually ever checked how much soft cc's actually do? They're close to meaningless against a Defiance Bar like those in Serpent's Ire especially when you compare ALL CC's that I have available to other more CC Heavy Classes. Some of them have more CC in their normal rotation than I would have if I limited my rotation to include all CC's and Soft CC's available to me.

> And as I have said in my initial post, we were somewhere around 25 People, all of which knew they'd have to CC the 5 guys. Our commander has explained what to do before but we barely got one of the 5 Bosses down to 80%. Which in my eyes is ridiculous. The Damage phase in between the CC's is too short and the Defiance Bar is way too strong.

> And yes, there are many people who don't understand defiance bar's which is something that is never, not even once, mentioned in any tutorial or whatever, the entire concept of CC is never explained in the game. And when you start the game you spent almost all of Core Tyria not needing a single CC, then you're tossed into HoT where CC (Or rather defiance bars) is the most prominent Boss Mechanic, but it's still never explained. I really don't know why we won't get a target dummy with a Defiance Bar on the start maps with a similar introduction like the dodge roll practice barriers.

> But then again, Serpent's Ire is not instanciated content, it's open World. And if the average Open World Population with their average Builds doesn't have enough CC then there is something wrong with the Open World Event. We really don't need an introduction of any kind of Meta Builds in Open World, it's the one defining feature of Open World that you can actually play whatever you like and have fun with it AND be actually successful with it in Open World.

>

> The Serpent's Ire event just doesn't have enough Wiggle Room, I don't mind the fact that it is harder than other Metas, it's just to unforgiving. Even Auric Basin can still be beat after one group killed too early. Even SW VW can be beat if two lanes fail their Boss. Even Tripple Trouble can be beat if one group is struggling (although it's significantly harder than the other mentiones). But Serpent's Ire? You feel like a group of low level's beating on an Elder Dragon or something if you don't have whatever's neccessary. It's like joining a T4 Fractal with a bunch of Lv50's except Fractals are in an instance which makes it something completely different, like raids.

 

1. This event is NOT meant to be tackled with 25 people. Teq cant be kills with 25 people, should we lower its hp? No.

2. Its the "i WANT to play like this" versus "i NEED to play like this".This event needs CC, why is it such a big deal?

3. I have seen plenty Vinewrath fail cause ppl wouldnt take reflects against middle boss. Why shouldnt we ask anet to nerf this? Reflects mess up my rotations. In TT one group helps another group during a dps phase, much like in serpents Ire a group that has finished helps other groups. So... No argument there

4. Why do people somehow think that open world content should be tackled with 1-1-1-1? And when faced with a challenge, they go haywire? Is it because everything OW related should be easy, just cause it is OW? What happened to learning the class? To what various weapons can do? To what cc is? Man, that 80lv booster does more harm than good.... Noone here is talking about meta stuff, yet you say your rotations will be ruined. Why would you care about rotations in OW? Thats a bit of a contradiction right there

5. Serpents Ire isnt unforgiving. One group usually finishes faster and helps others.

6. Chances are that this event will be toned down , much like Eir's CC bar in migraine achievement was nerfed. Some things in this game need to be more challenging, cause then they get too easy. And people get bored fast. And then they say theres no content.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > The Event is fine as it is. Don't know what's so bad about an Event where you actually have to do something instead of only autoattacking. If people don't know about CC by now, it's their own fault. Ain't that hard to bring a decent balance of CC and damage. The only thing that could be improved are the rewards.

> >

> > But that requires people to organize for the event to an extend that matches some raids even though it is an OPEN WORLD EVENT - which should be designed to be beatable by any average map population (like almost every single other Open World Event with the exception of HoT).

> > Also, no Open World content should be so incredibly reliant on one single mechanic (CC in that case). Not everyone plays CC heavy classes and again we're talking about Open World Content, not instanced content. I'm not going to change build or class just because I ran into a world boss.

>

> So is triple trouble with TS organizing, squad organizing, coordinated kill of all 3 heads. Yet, no complaints about that.

There _were_ complains. They stopped only because most players stopped doing that event completely. It's still alive only thanks to an effort of a few guilds/communities. If no guild/community organizes it, noone else even bothers with it.

Do you really want the same to happen with SI?

(notice also one major difference between those two - there are no other collections/achievements that are tied to TT event. The only ones tied to it are event-specific and do not extend outside of it)

 

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Using CC to break the bars has been a thing in this game for at least 2.5 years now. It’s a highly used mechanic in PvE. Having players use CC skills in encounters that require them is not unreasonable.

In general, you're right. There are however some events where the breakbar mechanic is either significantly overused, too overtuned, or both. Serpent's Ire lands in that last category.

And it only gets worse due to the fact that breakbar damage scaling is faulty in its execution (due to the soft-cc breakbar damage not scaling at all, and soft cc not stacking).

 

So, requiring players to use CC in open world is okay. Having massive breakbars requiring a ton of cc, breakbars that need to be broken very fast, breakbars that reapply almost immediately is less good. Having one (or more) of those and having breaking the bar be the core mechanic deciding whether you will succeed the encounter or not might be okay in challenging instanced content, but in open world is generally a very bad decision.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > The Event is fine as it is. Don't know what's so bad about an Event where you actually have to do something instead of only autoattacking. If people don't know about CC by now, it's their own fault. Ain't that hard to bring a decent balance of CC and damage. The only thing that could be improved are the rewards.

> > >

> > > But that requires people to organize for the event to an extend that matches some raids even though it is an OPEN WORLD EVENT - which should be designed to be beatable by any average map population (like almost every single other Open World Event with the exception of HoT).

> > > Also, no Open World content should be so incredibly reliant on one single mechanic (CC in that case). Not everyone plays CC heavy classes and again we're talking about Open World Content, not instanced content. I'm not going to change build or class just because I ran into a world boss.

> >

> > So is triple trouble with TS organizing, squad organizing, coordinated kill of all 3 heads. Yet, no complaints about that.

> There _were_ complains. They stopped only because most players stopped doing that event completely. It's still alive only thanks to an effort of a few guilds/communities. If no guild/community organizes it, noone else even bothers with it.

> Do you really want the same to happen with SI?

> (notice also one major difference between those two - there are no other collections/achievements that are tied to TT event. The only ones tied to it are event-specific and do not extend outside of it)

>

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Using CC to break the bars has been a thing in this game for at least 2.5 years now. It’s a highly used mechanic in PvE. Having players use CC skills in encounters that require them is not unreasonable.

> In general, you're right. There are however some events where the breakbar mechanic is either significantly overused, too overtuned, or both. Serpent's Ire lands in that last category.

> And it only gets worse due to the fact that breakbar damage scaling is faulty in its execution (due to the soft-cc breakbar damage not scaling at all, and soft cc not stacking).

>

> So, requiring players to use CC in open world is okay. Having massive breakbars requiring a ton of cc, breakbars that need to be broken very fast, breakbars that reapply almost immediately is less good. Having one (or more) of those and having breaking the bar be the core mechanic deciding whether you will succeed the encounter or not might be okay in challenging instanced content, but in open world is generally a very bad decision.

 

Five players per boss with the sole purpose just to CC them had no issue with the breakbars. If you spread that role accross everyone that’s participating, it’s more than doable.

 

This is a player issue. There’s a lot of people that are expecting the difficulty to be on par to that if a typical world boss in core Tyria (e.g. golem, FE, SB).

 

This is completely doable by splitting everyone up across the bosses evenly and having players put in the effort to slot and use their CC skills. An event isn’t overtuned because players refuse to do this as they’re prefer to just stack and mash their attack skills.

 

There’s also the other method brought up several times in threads like these where it’s very effective to have players that want to actively contribute to be a part of one of the groups assigned to each boss solely to CC it while a zerg of everyone else goes from boss to boss.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Five players per boss with the sole purpose just to CC them had no issue with the breakbars. If you spread that role accross everyone that’s participating, it’s more than doable.

Indeed. To make that doable you need an organized run where organizing group makes up a significant part of the group (in a single full squad, those cc monkeys are already half of the group). Don't have that organizing guild? The event fails 9 times out of ten.

Also, notice that you need more cc-ing people the bigger zerg you get. Two full squads, and 5 people per boss suddenly are not enough.

 

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Five players per boss with the sole purpose just to CC them had no issue with the breakbars. If you spread that role accross everyone that’s participating, it’s more than doable.

> Indeed. To make that doable you need an organized run where organizing group makes up a significant part of the group (in a single full squad, those cc monkeys are already half of the group). Don't have that organizing guild? The event fails 9 times out of ten.

> Also, notice that you need more cc-ing people the bigger zerg you get. Two full squads, and 5 people per boss suddenly are not enough.

>

>

>

 

You don’t need an organizing guild; just people willing to lead. Teq, DS, Gerent, and so on used to be done only by experienced guilds but eventually the general playerbase learned to use those strategies developed by those guilds.

 

In the runs I have done, if there was a guild sponsored map, their guild represented the minority of players and they didn’t dominate the CC role. I mean, it doesn’t take much to slot CC skills and use them despite what many people seem to making it out to be.

 

Having five people using their CC skills per boss worked just fine as the bosses were beaten with over 50% of the bar remaining.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> 1. This event is NOT meant to be tackled with 25 people. Teq cant be kills with 25 people, should we lower its hp? No.

- No you can't beat Teq with 25 People, but that's the case by design, you don't fail because the 25 players you have don't do something but rather because it's simply impossible. It's like comparing riding a bike to operating a spaceshuttle. First time riding a bike is usually really hard but possible, operating a spaceshuttle alone is impossible.

> 2. Its the "i WANT to play like this" versus "i NEED to play like this".This event needs CC, why is it such a big deal?

- Because it needs more CC than the average person runs. It's like you're advertising a car race open for everyone and then everyones there with some casual car and they have to race through an offroad track.

> 3. I have seen plenty Vinewrath fail cause ppl wouldnt take reflects against middle boss. Why shouldnt we ask anet to nerf this? Reflects mess up my rotations. In TT one group helps another group during a dps phase, much like in serpents Ire a group that has finished helps other groups. So... No argument there

- Vinewrath used to be done without any reflects when I played SW, people just realized that it is way way easier (to easy imo) to just reflect everything the boss does. The Boss is perfectly fine to beat without any reflects.

> 4. Why do people somehow think that open world content should be tackled with 1-1-1-1? And when faced with a challenge, they go haywire? Is it because everything OW related should be easy, just cause it is OW? What happened to learning the class? To what various weapons can do? To what cc is? Man, that 80lv booster does more harm than good.... Noone here is talking about meta stuff, yet you say your rotations will be ruined. Why would you care about rotations in OW? Thats a bit of a contradiction right there

- I feel like you didn't really read my text, I didn't complain about my rotation or anything, I just said that even if I'd run my perfect CC rotation I wouldn't do much damage to the defiance bar whereas other classes do more damage to the defiance bar with their default rotations. And I never used a lv80 Booster, I play the game since open beta, you should stop making assumptions just because my opinion doesn't match yours. And facing Serpent's Ire didn't feel like facing a challenge to me at all - it was more like hitting a wall that I can't overcome no matter what I do unless I find a group that is organized on a level that I'm not comfortable with (which is the same reason why I don't enjoy raiding). I enjoy playing Open World because it's spontaneus, I see an event that I'm interested in, then I'll try my best doing it. And don't worry, I know perfectly fine how and when to CC and how to play my class.

> 5. Serpents Ire isnt unforgiving. One group usually finishes faster and helps others.

- It is unforgiving. If you're not in a group that is super organized you don't even stand a chance most of the time.

> 6. Chances are that this event will be toned down , much like Eir's CC bar in migraine achievement was nerfed. Some things in this game need to be more challenging, cause then they get too easy. And people get bored fast. And then they say theres no content.

- I get bored when the content we have isn't fun to play. I enjoy challenges but Meta Event's aren't personal challenges nor are they challenging content, the challenge lies in finding an organized map - not in the event itself. Casting CC's when you see a blue bar isn't a very challenging mechanic nor is it fun, it feels limiting at best. It's honestly way overused since HoT and I wish arenaNet would implement more interesting and engaging Boss mechanics

 

 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

There needs to be a rare reward like the bees and chack egg infusions to make people want to replay this beyond the required collections.

[Alxa.6527]

Other zones get huge zergs, why not vabbi? If numbers are required why are the rewards piss poor compared to Dragon Stand or many of the living story metas.

 

Terrible rewards = no wonder no one does it - maybe fix the rewards and then see if it's still broken with huge zergs.