RAIDS LACK CLASS DIVERSITY- Possible Solutions.

[Ayrilana.1396]

What’s part of the meta is not the definition of diversity. If you have issues with classes not being accepted then form your own groups. If there’s a lot of you that have that issue, then there should be more than enough to form these kind of groups that are open to all.

[ArchGenie.1063]

(Comment deleted)

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > >

> > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> > >

> > > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

> >

> > Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> > ##99cm:

> > * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> > * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> > * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> > ##100cm:

> > * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> > * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> > * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

> >

> > Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> > Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

> >

> > Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

> >

> >

>

> Applying elitist stat site reports to general pug environment. That's one way to be out of reality.

 

Raidar has lots of casual players uploading logs aswell. Values i used were fairly low compared to whats actually possible with speedclear strategies.

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

>

> I take my 6k dps DH over 5k weavers every day.

>

I wouldn't want either of them. But that 5k weaver is a bad player and would be bad on every other profession aswell.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> > > >

> > > > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

> > >

> > > Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> > > ##99cm:

> > > * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> > > * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> > > * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> > > ##100cm:

> > > * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> > > * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> > > * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

> > >

> > > Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> > > Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

> > >

> > > Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Applying elitist stat site reports to general pug environment. That's one way to be out of reality.

>

> Raidar has lots of casual players uploading logs aswell. Values i used were fairly low compared to whats actually possible with speedclear strategies.

>

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> >

> > I take my 6k dps DH over 5k weavers every day.

> >

> I wouldn't want either of them. But that 5k weaver is a bad player and would be bad on every other profession aswell.

 

The very fact that someone has raidar account and uploads to it makes him non-casual.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> Everything is viable sure.

Yes, that is the point.

 

> You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions.

Ideally-played Weavers in ideal conditions do more damage. PUG parties are never ideal.

 

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> Raidar has lots of casual players uploading logs aswell. Values i used were fairly low compared to whats actually possible with speedclear strategies.

Again, that's the point: what's "best" for speedclearing isn't "best" for PUGging.

 

 

 

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I'm looking forward to see the next wave of elite specs. Until then, we have a decent meta.

> The problem is simple, have the last elite specs changed anything substantial with the problems that remain from the HoT era? I don't think so. The Unholy Trinity cannot be solved by new elite specs, unless they're supposed to become ridiculously overpowered.

>

 

The new elite specs didnt come with any druid or any chrono.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > Everything is viable sure.

> Yes, that is the point.

 

If you define viable as able to complete content because there are no hard enrages. But weaver has 50%!!!!! up to 100% and more dps than holo and dh on some bosses. Why do people still deny this. Just play once with such a broken comp and you realize how useless DH feels in a good party.

 

> > You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions.

> Ideally-played Weavers in ideal conditions do more damage. PUG parties are never ideal.

The 50th percentile of Weaver is still higher than the 99th percentile DH at Siax. Even a perfectly played DH can't reach a trash Weaver there.

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > Raidar has lots of casual players uploading logs aswell. Values i used were fairly low compared to whats actually possible with speedclear strategies.

> Again, that's the point: what's "best" for speedclearing isn't "best" for PUGging.

 

What i mean is that the difference in speedclears is way higher. The values i used are probably not speedclear values.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> Why do people still deny this.

 

No one is denying that a well-played Weaver in ideal circumstances dishes out way more DPS. We're saying that it's not the only consideration when forming a group.

 

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> that 5k weaver is a bad player and would be bad on every other profession aswell.

 

Do you want to rethink that? Michael Jordan is considered by many experts to be the best basketball player in history. As a baseball player, though, he's a footnote. Someone can play one style well and another poorly.

 

****

No one is questioning that, all things equal, we'd rather have an expert playing Weaver for DPS. But all things are hardly ever equal when it comes to what we experience in the game. For my static, a fun, easy-going group is more important to me than seeing ideal damage. For PUGing, I'd rather have someone who can adapt to the group's needs rather than someone who insists that there's only one way to clear things: their way (even _when_ I agree that their way is objectively superior).

 

DPS is an important criterion for groups, maybe the most important. However, it's not the only one.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> >

> > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> >

> > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

>

> Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> ##99cm:

> * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> ##100cm:

> * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

>

> Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

>

> Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

>

>

 

Thats only so close because of the samplesize.

[spiritualabyss.7016]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> >

> > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> >

> > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

>

> Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> ##99cm:

> * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> ##100cm:

> * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

>

> Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

>

> Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

>

>

 

If you take a 99.9percentile weaver and 99.9percentile pChrono within the same comp you will get different numbers - Raidar values are heavily skewed because of the small pChrono sample size (out of which most are my logs) and a very large Weaver sample size in comparison.

 

The big numbers you see for pChrono only happen when i run with a bad 2nd dps, however if i run with a Weaver, my numbers will be much smaller in comparison, since Chrono has a longer ramp up time.

 

For example today i ran with such a Weaver in fracs and the difference was way bigger than raidar suggests:

Weaver got:

4k more bossDPS on Skorvald

5k more on Artsariiv

3k more on Arkk

11k more on MAMA

16k more on Siax

12k more on Ensolyss

 

The weaver did not have a single fractal augmentation.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"spiritualabyss.7016" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > >

> > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> > >

> > > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

> >

> > Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> > ##99cm:

> > * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> > * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> > * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> > ##100cm:

> > * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> > * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> > * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

> >

> > Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> > Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

> >

> > Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

> >

> >

>

> If you take a 99.9percentile weaver and 99.9percentile pChrono within the same comp you will get different numbers - Raidar values are heavily skewed because of the small pChrono sample size (out of which most are my logs) and a very large Weaver sample size in comparison.

>

> The big numbers you see for pChrono only happen when i run with a bad 2nd dps, however if i run with a Weaver, my numbers will be much smaller in comparison, since Chrono has a longer ramp up time.

>

> For example today i ran with such a Weaver in fracs and the difference was way bigger than raidar suggests:

> Weaver got:

> 4k more bossDPS on Skorvald

> 5k more on Artsariiv

> 3k more on Arkk

> 11k more on MAMA

> 16k more on Siax

> 12k more on Ensolyss

>

> The weaver did not have a single fractal augmentation.

 

I know. Thats why i mentioned Holo sometimes because its the best next with high sample size. Most of the Bosses have 250+ logs for pChrono though. Weaver also has conjures which boost druid and chrono dps quite a lot which the logs don't show aswell.

[Raizel.8175]

Weavers aren't the real problem, they're not vital to raids and fractals. The problem is the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy that needs to be broken. They don't just hold the typical tank and heal-role, they also are the worst offenders to boon-spam both in regards of quantity, quality, efficiency and applicability. Not just that, they're also vastly overutilized.

[blambidy.3216]

Maybe we have to wait for the next expansion to see if we can do something with them. However I will say I have seen revenant and guard in a raid and we made it through the raid fine. Not the one your talking about however, to say they aren’t included is a lie. Tbh if you know your ish, its better then picking a class your not comfy with.

 

I haven’t been raiding as long as the person who started the thread but, iv seen some fuzzy builds and we still fly through it. Meta build is just so you get the best out of the class. But doesn’t mean the class can’t do other things with other builds.

 

I agree that arenanet should give more diversity for classes to be needed and we can choose different ways to raid. But I don’t agree that not all classes aren’t welcome to raid. The three classes you mentioned that don’t get love actually do.

 

And there are videos where people use necros in raids and they all make it through.

 

So idk your experience, but maybe you should try things out to see for yourself if some builds work and don’t.

 

 

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Diversity is issue honestly it makes some bettet if all were same in stat all could play all roles

[Anchoku.8142]

Defiance is a part of the problem. It trivialized most conditions so what seems OP in PvP has little value against Defiance; blind, for example. Go review each condition and think to yourself how significant is it in PvP versus bosses with Defiant.

 

Boss AI should also do things like...

* add more weight in aggro calculations for players with higher dps and outgoing heals.

* strip or corrupt boons

* clear or transfer conditions

* dodge red circles

* interrupt skills with long tells

* heal themselves with skills on cool downs

* be more susceptible to conditions like blind, chill, weakness, slow, taunt, poison's heal reduction, and other non/low-damaging conditions if the player's build has stat's to strengthen the effects, or more than one player stacks the same condition.

 

Changing Defiance and AI to be closer to PvP would make balancing between game modes so much easier while allowing a lot more build variety.

[Zlater.6789]

> @"Tinker.1586" said:

> **CLASSES/SPECS YOU CAN USE**

>

> Chrono Tank - Must have sometimes two are required

> Druid Healer- Must have sometimes two are required

> BURN Slave Warrior - You used to be able to use Phalenx Strength but that got nerfed so this is a buffer and a DPS Required for every boss

> Elementalist DPS- Top Tier DPS, if you could fill a team with this you would be solid

> DD and Condi Thief - Can be used in every boss but Duhuum

> Engineer- Tough class to play and can be used for nearly anything unfortunately most people do not have the finger dextarity to play this

> Necro/Guardian/Revinant- Only can be used on certain bosses due to a certain ability that is subject to getting nerfed in future.

 

So youre saying that every class is strong, not only that but 6 of the 9 classes are also extremely recommended on EVERY boss. And that's a problem somehow?

 

[Enigmoid.1264]

> @"spiritualabyss.7016" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > >

> > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > On the contrary, there's no need to play Weaver in Fractals unless you are speedclearing or are carrying 2-3 others. And, of course, it's far better to play with almost any class than a lot of weavers we see.

> > >

> > > There are tons of viable comps for fractals (even CMs). There might be only a narrow comp for speedclears, but that's not what most of us do most of the time.

> >

> > Lets compare weaver per boss in cms to the 2nd best option which is dps chrono. I use the 90th percentile for this:

> > ##99cm:

> > * MAMA: 35,1% ahead

> > * Siax: 35,4% ahead. 66,9% ahead of Holosmith

> > * Ensolyss: 28,3% ahead. 49,3% ahead of Holo

> > ##100cm:

> > * Skorvald: 13,1% ahead. But Weavers can phase skorvald in just one breakbar preventing him from rushing around. This results in very high Weaver dps not represented in 90th percentile. Not sure if chronos can do this too.

> > * Artsariiv: Chrono is 2,8% ahead.

> > * Arkk: Weaver is 3,4% ahead. 27,6% ahead of Holo.

> >

> > Out of 6 Bosses only 2 are fairly close when compared to 2nd best option. Chrono is even bugged and i'm not sure how many of the stats are corrupted by exploiters. Weaver is miles ahead of DH and Holo and this gap becomes even larger if you use the 99th percentile to the point of weaver dealing twice the damage.

> > Its not even limited to cms. Want to burst underground boss in 1 bucket? Take weavers. Want to do TO fast? Take weavers for opening burst on every add. Only Fractals where weavers aren't miles ahead and behind are underwater, aetherblade and maybe urban battleground endboss but weaver is still the best for the adds.

> >

> > Everything is viable sure. You can solo all the bosses but Weaver does 50% and more damage than all the other professions. Even "burst" professions like Dh have way lower burst and trash dps. Holo and heat mechanic doesn't really work with short phases and agony + self damage isn't helping aswell.

> >

> >

>

> If you take a 99.9percentile weaver and 99.9percentile pChrono within the same comp you will get different numbers - Raidar values are heavily skewed because of the small pChrono sample size (out of which most are my logs) and a very large Weaver sample size in comparison.

>

> The big numbers you see for pChrono only happen when i run with a bad 2nd dps, however if i run with a Weaver, my numbers will be much smaller in comparison, since Chrono has a longer ramp up time.

>

> For example today i ran with such a Weaver in fracs and the difference was way bigger than raidar suggests:

> Weaver got:

> 4k more bossDPS on Skorvald

> 5k more on Artsariiv

> 3k more on Arkk

> 11k more on MAMA

> 16k more on Siax

> 12k more on Ensolyss

>

> The weaver did not have a single fractal augmentation.

 

The 99.9 percentile is meaningless. There are 2300 records of weaver on Ark CM for instance. The 99.9 percentile is basically the top 2 runs. Even the 99 percentile is the top 23 at which point you are evaluating meteor shower RNG + glyph of empowerment. There are not enough pchrono runs (and a number of those logs look to be some hybrid based on quickness output) to say anything meaningful at the 99 percentile mark. You really cannot consider anything above the 90 percentile mark as significant.

 

The major issue with taking Raidar logs as meaningful is self selection. I.e. people playing classes because they are meta and thus creating systematic error in the records making comparisons between classes difficult. Looking at Ark CM we can guess that Raidar has about 2200 logs (based on the numbers for druids and mesmers, yesterday this looked to be around 2000). Players doing Ark CM regularly represent a vanishingly small fraction of the playerbase - probably less than top 25% of PvE. These players are very likely to be very very good and to be able to multiclass. Weaver is the top dog dps and these players have the skill to play weaver, do great dps, and stay alive. So they play weaver rather than holo or other alternatives.

 

What is specifically meant by this is that players self select towards weaver. For this thought experiment consider an even pool of players playing all dps classes evenly. If for instance they could play a great holo at a relative dps (i.e. normalized) of 1.0 they switch to playing weaver so they can get a relative dps of 1.1. They remove themselves and their high relative holo damage from the holosmith data pool and add themselves to the weaver data pool. Thus things like the average 90th percentile holo dps are depressed while weaver dps is inflated. Players not comfortable on weaver (it is squishy) or in less experienced groups don't play weaver or even move off weaver. Thus you end up with many good experienced players on weaver while less experienced players stick to other classes. Holo then shows a reduced (normalized) dps like ~0.90 while weaver gets inflated to ~1.15.

 

Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and **more reliable damage at the cost of less damage**. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

 

**If you want to talk about misrepresentation, druid and chrono form virtually every single group (99% of Ark CM runs use this support combo). Nerf druid and chrono (especially cc) and weaver will fall off as it has very little cc. **

 

Long story short:

 

Statement: "Weaver should only be top dps in the hands of extremely experienced players."

Fractal CM's do not represent the playerbase well as they are completed by primarily extremely experienced players and these experienced players pretty much play exclusively weaver, driving up weaver dps numbers and driving down (relatively speaking) the dps of other classes.

 

 

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Defiance > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Defiance is a part of the problem. It trivialized most conditions so what seems OP in PvP has little value against Defiance; blind, for example. Go review each condition and think to yourself how significant is it in PvP versus bosses with Defiant.

>

> Boss AI should also do things like...

> * add more weight in aggro calculations for players with higher dps and outgoing heals.

> * strip or corrupt boons

> * clear or transfer conditions

> * dodge red circles

> * interrupt skills with long tells

> * heal themselves with skills on cool downs

> * be more susceptible to conditions like blind, chill, weakness, slow, taunt, poison's heal reduction, and other non/low-damaging conditions if the player's build has stat's to strengthen the effects, or more than one player stacks the same condition.

>

> Changing Defiance and AI to be closer to PvP would make balancing between game modes so much easier while allowing a lot more build variety.

 

Its the worst thing inthis game that bar is unnecesery mech we all would be better off with

[zealex.9410]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> Defiance > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Defiance is a part of the problem. It trivialized most conditions so what seems OP in PvP has little value against Defiance; blind, for example. Go review each condition and think to yourself how significant is it in PvP versus bosses with Defiant.

> >

> > Boss AI should also do things like...

> > * add more weight in aggro calculations for players with higher dps and outgoing heals.

> > * strip or corrupt boons

> > * clear or transfer conditions

> > * dodge red circles

> > * interrupt skills with long tells

> > * heal themselves with skills on cool downs

> > * be more susceptible to conditions like blind, chill, weakness, slow, taunt, poison's heal reduction, and other non/low-damaging conditions if the player's build has stat's to strengthen the effects, or more than one player stacks the same condition.

> >

> > Changing Defiance and AI to be closer to PvP would make balancing between game modes so much easier while allowing a lot more build variety.

>

> Its the worst thing inthis game that bar is unnecesery mech we all would be better off with

 

Actually the breakbar is one of the better additions in this game.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

>

> In raids thats true unless you look at the broken dps. Named scourge, weaver and mirage. Weaver is just the best power dps right now. Scourge epi bounce outperforms every dps build there is by a huge margin and mirage is just the best condi build in all other cases.

> Well for bosses like Xera most of the dps builds are almost equal but bosses like dhuum, matthias or SH have the worst class diversity ever.

 

Viable? lol. People clear fractals every day with non-meta trash comps. You mean fractals have one "optimal" dps slot. A world of difference.

 

As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick. No thanks, I'd rather there were incentives to find synergies and different builds were optimal in different places.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick.

 

I'm not that eager on a perfect balance either, cause it will only add to homogeneity instead of diversity, and also, balancing would become really complex if you want to strafe for such a Utopia. But I wouldnt mind if this **very long** sitting meta would change completely tomorrow! E.g.: Top DPS (by far) Revenant and Guardian not _that_ far off. Top all-rounded offensive support: Necro (Scourge). Top all-rounded defensive support: Thief! It would definitely spice things up!

 

I wouldn't mind to have more diversity in builds _over time_! Cause atm it cannot be more tedious than this, and after every single balance update we'll already know we'll get the exact same results as always! OR it was a bug and gets nerfed into the ground 2 weeks after!

 

EDIT: Or does ANet sees us as one big autistic community that can't handle big changes? C'mon ANet, the time that (MMO) gamers only consisted of a small bunch of autistic people is over. We can handle it!!! (I think ;-) )

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > Defiance > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > Defiance is a part of the problem. It trivialized most conditions so what seems OP in PvP has little value against Defiance; blind, for example. Go review each condition and think to yourself how significant is it in PvP versus bosses with Defiant.

> > >

> > > Boss AI should also do things like...

> > > * add more weight in aggro calculations for players with higher dps and outgoing heals.

> > > * strip or corrupt boons

> > > * clear or transfer conditions

> > > * dodge red circles

> > > * interrupt skills with long tells

> > > * heal themselves with skills on cool downs

> > > * be more susceptible to conditions like blind, chill, weakness, slow, taunt, poison's heal reduction, and other non/low-damaging conditions if the player's build has stat's to strengthen the effects, or more than one player stacks the same condition.

> > >

> > > Changing Defiance and AI to be closer to PvP would make balancing between game modes so much easier while allowing a lot more build variety.

> >

> > Its the worst thing inthis game that bar is unnecesery mech we all would be better off with

>

> Actually the breakbar is one of the better additions in this game.

 

The break bar was definitely an improvement over no break bar and the change to condition stacking was also a significant improvement.

 

However, there is a lot more Arenanet could do on fundamental simulation aspects of the game with boss AI being the most critical need, from my perspective.

 

Bosses still behave like they were designed in the last century. They are easily controlled by toughness, follow a fixed script for actions, and rely on very high stats to compensate.

 

Arenanet dev's could attempt to build user controls for various bosses and actually play them (those bosses) against test raid groups for comparison.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > Defiance > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > Defiance is a part of the problem. It trivialized most conditions so what seems OP in PvP has little value against Defiance; blind, for example. Go review each condition and think to yourself how significant is it in PvP versus bosses with Defiant.

> > > >

> > > > Boss AI should also do things like...

> > > > * add more weight in aggro calculations for players with higher dps and outgoing heals.

> > > > * strip or corrupt boons

> > > > * clear or transfer conditions

> > > > * dodge red circles

> > > > * interrupt skills with long tells

> > > > * heal themselves with skills on cool downs

> > > > * be more susceptible to conditions like blind, chill, weakness, slow, taunt, poison's heal reduction, and other non/low-damaging conditions if the player's build has stat's to strengthen the effects, or more than one player stacks the same condition.

> > > >

> > > > Changing Defiance and AI to be closer to PvP would make balancing between game modes so much easier while allowing a lot more build variety.

> > >

> > > Its the worst thing inthis game that bar is unnecesery mech we all would be better off with

> >

> > Actually the breakbar is one of the better additions in this game.

>

> The break bar was definitely an improvement over no break bar and the change to condition stacking was also a significant improvement.

>

> However, there is a lot more Arenanet could do on fundamental simulation aspects of the game with boss AI being the most critical need, from my perspective.

>

> Bosses still behave like they were designed in the last century. They are easily controlled by toughness, follow a fixed script for actions, and rely on very high stats to compensate.

>

> Arenanet dev's could attempt to build user controls for various bosses and actually play them (those bosses) against test raid groups for comparison.

 

If i wanted i highly inteligent fighting game id play that. Raids are what you said, scripted encounters high high stats and tuned mechanics. The point of them is to have high enough stats and mechanics tuned so highly that players need to push themselves to overcome. The point is not to outsmart the ai its to overcome it.

 

If i wanted to play against player controled characters id play pvp.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> >

> > In raids thats true unless you look at the broken dps. Named scourge, weaver and mirage. Weaver is just the best power dps right now. Scourge epi bounce outperforms every dps build there is by a huge margin and mirage is just the best condi build in all other cases.

> > Well for bosses like Xera most of the dps builds are almost equal but bosses like dhuum, matthias or SH have the worst class diversity ever.

>

> Viable? lol. People clear fractals every day with non-meta trash comps. You mean fractals have one "optimal" dps slot. A world of difference.

>

> As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick. No thanks, I'd rather there were incentives to find synergies and different builds were optimal in different places.

 

If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

 

Finding and using a good synergy was using Rev and Holo so they would buff each other. Not worth anymore because alacrity destroyed Rev and Holo should just play Thermal or buff scourges/mirages.

Big Hitbox -> Weaver

Epi bounce possible -> Scourge are not really good synergies. Weaver also outdamages Thermal Vision Holo on Vale Guardian, a small hitbox target.

There are multiple Professions optimal nowhere right now. The alacrity and chrono change butchered Engineer and Revenant. Only Mirage got confusion nerf compensation.

Warrior can be played core, Spellbreaker, and Berserker and has places for it everywhere while Engineer has only a niche on Holo on some Bosses. Thief could just not exist and nobody would notice. Guardian is most of the time not even decent. Revenent needs compensation for the alacrity nerf and the power variant needs either way higher dps or utlity or at least sword rework so more than pressing aa and 2 once in a while is possible.

Mesmer got a rework after just 5years. Maybe rev will get 1 in 2 then.

 

Most of the bosses can be done by the meta classes with half a team. Saying the rest can be filled with trash and you will still be able to kill the boss is not wrong but that doesn't make the trash professions better.

Tempest defense could be removed on weaver for a start. 2% per boon modifier could use a cap so its not that ridiculous with a chaos chrono. Nerfing it to 1% would make it super bad without chaos chrono though.

Engi bombs were even nerfed so sword has better aa in last balance update. Their devs just hate engineers with a passion. No wonder like nobody plays them.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > >

> > > In raids thats true unless you look at the broken dps. Named scourge, weaver and mirage. Weaver is just the best power dps right now. Scourge epi bounce outperforms every dps build there is by a huge margin and mirage is just the best condi build in all other cases.

> > > Well for bosses like Xera most of the dps builds are almost equal but bosses like dhuum, matthias or SH have the worst class diversity ever.

> >

> > Viable? lol. People clear fractals every day with non-meta trash comps. You mean fractals have one "optimal" dps slot. A world of difference.

> >

> > As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick. No thanks, I'd rather there were incentives to find synergies and different builds were optimal in different places.

>

> If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

>

> Finding and using a good synergy was using Rev and Holo so they would buff each other. Not worth anymore because alacrity destroyed Rev and Holo should just play Thermal or buff scourges/mirages.

> Big Hitbox -> Weaver

> Epi bounce possible -> Scourge are not really good synergies. Weaver also outdamages Thermal Vision Holo on Vale Guardian, a small hitbox target.

> There are multiple Professions optimal nowhere right now. The alacrity and chrono change butchered Engineer and Revenant. Only Mirage got confusion nerf compensation.

> Warrior can be played core, Spellbreaker, and Berserker and has places for it everywhere while Engineer has only a niche on Holo on some Bosses. Thief could just not exist and nobody would notice. Guardian is most of the time not even decent. Revenent needs compensation for the alacrity nerf and the power variant needs either way higher dps or utlity or at least sword rework so more than pressing aa and 2 once in a while is possible.

> Mesmer got a rework after just 5years. Maybe rev will get 1 in 2 then.

>

> Most of the bosses can be done by the meta classes with half a team. Saying the rest can be filled with trash and you will still be able to kill the boss is not wrong but that doesn't make the trash professions better.

> Tempest defense could be removed on weaver for a start. 2% per boon modifier could use a cap so its not that ridiculous with a chaos chrono. Nerfing it to 1% would make it super bad without chaos chrono though.

> Engi bombs were even nerfed so sword has better aa in last balance update. Their devs just hate engineers with a passion. No wonder like nobody plays them.

 

Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.