I'm still waiting on bated breath.

[Neon Techno Sparkles.1467]

Will we ever get any form of apology from Braham?

And it had better not be this thing where he mumbles "So, uh, yeah, about that, you know that thing that one time... I uh... I'm... uh... "

And then we don't even make him say the words, we go "I know Braham, it's okay, you were going through a lot right then, let's never talk about it again, okay? Now come on buddy, bring it in, hug it out."

[Ayakaru.6583]

Meh, an angsty teen is still less dangerous than a plantoid witch who’s willing to sacrifice half the world for her ideal method of saving the world..

I say we take out the most liable living thing at the moment, first.

[Randulf.7614]

Given the bigger issues at hand and the pressures all characters are under, im not sure i see the need or relevance to one. There are far bigger and more important things going on than worrying about mild tantrum from a grieving young norn. Frankly im surprised everyone isnt snapping at each other given the circumstances.

[ugrakarma.9416]

It just seems to me that they decide to lower the pitch of this Braham thing to avoid having to deal with a parallel plot. I suspect, even the LS3 thing might have had that intention from the beginning, something just to take Braham and Rox out of the scene during the path of fire.

 

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

At least this isn't a "hurr durr kill bram cuz i don't liek him" thread. I wish more threads were like this.

[Arden.7480]

The Community is very hasty towards the characters that have their problems and do weird things- Caithe and Braham, they call out: Kill them!

 

I am not quite sure, but isn't there any other way to ease the situation between one another than killing somebody?

 

When mother argues with her daughter and one of them starts shouting that she is: stupid, is putting herself beyond anybody, does it cause that for example daughter kills her mother? Surely it may happen, if the daughter is a psycho, but always some talking helps, if you do it right.

 

I always try to understand somebody, doesn't matter if in game or irl, and killing somebody that wants just to find his way to deal with problems is not a good way.

 

That's why I really hoped that after this argument between the PC and Braham there would be at least one chapter to ease Braham's mind, share his sadness.

 

I blame the writers for how they wrote this situation totally out of space, because if the PC would care for Braham, he would support him after all those years and memories.

 

He went straight to the Jormag's stronghold, and we, even for old time sake, didn't go there and give him what Rox understood- our support.

 

His bad attitude wasn't caused by something stupid or idiotic, it was caused by his mother's death.

 

If I were him I would react exactly the same as he did, if you lose somebody you can't think straight, he turned his anger first towards Jormag and then towards us, exactly how many people react after losing mother or son that died because a psycho killed somebody's little boy when he was returning home. How then would this father react? Most likely he would turn against first the villain, then his own family and there would be somebody that would say: Come, join us, the time of grave ended. And imagine how this father would react? You can't just think of the fresh start after your boy was killed, after when in the same day, in the morning you were preparing sandwiches to him, when the last words he said to his father was: I love you.

 

I know its off topic and probably too long, but what we need is to think how we would react if the similar thing would happen to us... Would you like to be killed because you can't stand that you lost somebody dearest to your heart? Because I wouldn't like...

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> The Community is very hasty towards the characters that have their problems and do weird things- Caithe and Braham, they call out: Kill them!

> I am not quite sure, but isn't there any other way to ease the situation between one another than killing somebody?

 

lol lol, well, the campaign against Zaithan is a bloodbath, some players got used to it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

We pretty much got his apology already:

 

Pact Commander: I know it's hard—that voice in your head, spoiling for a fight. But a wise warrior knows when to ignore that voice.

Braham Eirsson: Tough time for them. That voice in your head—you're not careful, it can take over.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Kindness_Repaid#Dialogue

 

While the words themselves are not an apology, his tone was definitely such.

 

I don't think we'll ever get anything more. Beyond Braham talking about the letter he sent Taimi, which he was about to before getting cut off by Gorrik.

[Polarfairy.8046]

The way I see it, Braham has been very annoying but he is also a young man who has been through a lot. After a lifetime of trying to find his identity, his family, his mother was taken from him before he really even knew her. The world has also been consistently and perpetually falling apart around his ears, literally, and I would imagine it's much harder to process a death in your life when you have to put the rest of the world before your own feelings. He will have been going through the stages of grief and loss, anger taking a long time to move on from and he has finally taken the time to possibly make it to acceptance. We don't need an apology because he was feeling emotions he couldn't handle, he just needed some time.

[Ardid.7203]

Guys at such age tend to be too irritable and stupid until they get a GF or BF. All Braham need is some love. Maybe even pure sex could be enough. Of course, NOT FROM THE COMMANDER. He is insufferable, but at least he hasn't done anything criminal AFAIK.

 

Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> The way I see it, Braham has been very annoying but he is also a young man who has been through a lot. After a lifetime of trying to find his identity, his family, his mother was taken from him before he really even knew her. The world has also been consistently and perpetually falling apart around his ears, literally, and I would imagine it's much harder to process a death in your life when you have to put the rest of the world before your own feelings. He will have been going through the stages of grief and loss, anger taking a long time to move on from and he has finally taken the time to possibly make it to acceptance. We don't need an apology because he was feeling emotions he couldn't handle, he just needed some time.

 

and lets be fair, someone watchs him own mother being skewered is not one of the best experiences.

 

 

 

[Arden.7480]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Guys at such age tend to be too irritable and stupid until they get a GF or BF. All Braham need is some love. Maybe even pure sex could be enough. Of course, NOT FROM THE COMMANDER. He is insufferable, but at least he hasn't done anything criminal AFAIK.

>

> Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

 

I think sooner Rytlock will evolve into Asura than Caithe will be judged for her deeds xD

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

 

Oh, yes. Her crimes of keeping a world-saving egg out of Mordrem hands (which would destroy it) while being conflicted about who her allies are due to the constant whispering of an Elder Dragon's voice in her mind.

 

Or are you referring to her mercy killing a would-be torture victim to keep out knowledge of a maniacal villain's hands?

 

Or are you referring to her killing literally irredeemable terrorists, murderers, torturers, and their recruiters?

 

Caithe's overall actions are far better than the Commander's at this point, in all honesty, and her actions during Season 2 and Heart of Thorns would fall under a very obvious case of "cannot be held accountable for her actions due to influence from an Elder Dragon" like any other sylvari who had done something bad while resisting Mordremoth's call and never actually succumbed. Like sylvari Commanders temporarily turning on their allies while fighting Mordremoth.

[Zola.6197]

I *might* put Braham on a bus so Zojja’s could ride back into town, but he shouldn’t die just because he’s made some annoying choices.

 

Regarding the OP’s topic, I would like much better resolution provided on the rift between the Commander and Braham. Doubt we’ll get it though since GW2 notoriously drops plot threads (not that an apology is a plot thread but yeah).

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

>

> Oh, yes. Her crimes of keeping a world-saving egg out of Mordrem hands (which would destroy it) while being conflicted about who her allies are due to the constant whispering of an Elder Dragon's voice in her mind.

>

> Or are you referring to her mercy killing a would-be torture victim to keep out knowledge of a maniacal villain's hands?

>

> Or are you referring to her killing literally irredeemable terrorists, murderers, torturers, and their recruiters?

 

I am pretty sure they refer to the fact that she did steal our egg. And I am using that word rightfully here: The PC did their best to protect the master of peace, only for him to still die, leaving behind the egg in our hands, telling us we have to protect it. She takes it without asking, which is the nice way to phrase a crime (theft). Her profession is quite fitting in that instance. I am not saying that she had bad intentions. It is just that she made the most stupid decision she could during that situation and endangered us all. You can't even use Mordremoths call as an excuse for her behavior because until that point, only a few selected Sylvari had real troubles with it and Caithe was portrayed as quite sane compared to them, even during HOT. The logical decision would have been to explain the situation calmly and let us all together get the egg to a safe place. Instead she shuts us down and runs. For no good reason! We just killed the imminent danger (Mordrem Predator). Just one well phrased sentence would have sufficed. Instead of telling us "No time to explain!", a "I will make sure this is safe!" would have been 100% better. It may not have fully cleared up the situation, but at least made sure everyone knew which side she is on. I don’t think that 3 words make that much a difference in time. I think Majory actually phrased it perfectly right after she took the egg: "Without consulting the Pale Tree, we can only guess at Caithe's motives."

 

I still have my doubts that the PC would have agreed over getting the egg so deep into the jungle (It is a rather questionable decision, to phrase it nicely) if given any choice. But that’s the writer's problems to fix without making a character doing incredible stupid things. Which is exactly the problem. Of course, we already know why she didn’t said anything: Story wise, this would have made it rather unbelievable that she may be on the enemy's side, which is a silent risk looming around during the HOT story. So the writers decided to portray her as too hastily instead of using other ways to make us uncertain of her intentions. In other words: The writers would rather sacrifice a character then to get up their asses and think of something actually logicaly to push the story into the right direction. I considered using past tense here but looking at POF and the Living story leading up to it, I don’t think that attitude really changed. Ingame however, we can't blame the writers, we must blame the characters for what they have done. And players who get into the story note rightfully that Caithe acted terrible and endangered us with that behavior.

 

[Westenev.5289]

I found the scene touching, to be honest. I think Brahm had come to regret his actions in LS3 EP3, and LS4 Ep1 had hints that though he recognised it, he was too proud to admit he was wrong (Rox even goes ahead and lampshades it). This episode proved that deep down he's still the old Brahm who would follow us into hell and back - and that's all we really wanted. How was the Commander supposed to be anything but touched?

 

I'm sorry Brahm haters, but you're all wrong.

[Castigator.3470]

You know, I'd appreciate if Braham would lay a wreath at our door (home instance entrance).

 

We take it inside, all is forgiven, story continues as normal.

 

OR we put a stein into the wreath and get an optional mission, where we meet Braham and drink until forgiveness is reached. After Braham and the Commander black out, we continue the story as normal. (Achievement get: The morning after. 1AP)

 

Depending on how salty the playerbase still is, the player may also get the option to break the wreath, we meet Braham at the Battle Pits in the Gendarran Fields and either beat the snot out of him, or he beats the snot out of us, forgiveness by the fist.

(Remeber, he's a legendary character, which means it won't be easy. Plus, forgiveness is achieved whether you win or lose, so if he wipes you, he wins. Achievement get: Satisfaction 1 AP)

 

This would satisfy both the players, that want some closure to the Braham fallout and the players, who want to see the norn and their customs presented in game. Also, this would make a nice opening into Living Season 4 Episode 3. We make up with Braham, then we go on to hunt down Joko, before he can unleash the scarab plague on Tyria.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> You know, I'd appreciate if Braham would lay a wreath at our door (home instance entrance).

>

> We take it inside, all is forgiven, story continues as normal.

>

> OR we put a stein into the wreath and get an optional mission, where we meet Braham and drink until forgiveness is reached. After Braham and the Commander black out, we continue the story as normal. (Achievement get: The morning after. 1AP)

>

> Depending on how salty the playerbase still is, the player may also get the option to break the wreath, we meet Braham at the Battle Pits in the Gendarran Fields and either beat the snot out of him, or he beats the snot out of us, forgiveness by the fist.

> (Remeber, he's a legendary character, which means it won't be easy. Plus, forgiveness is achieved whether you win or lose, so if he wipes you, he wins. Achievement get: Satisfaction 1 AP)

>

> This would satisfy both the players, that want some closure to the Braham fallout and the players, who want to see the norn and their customs presented in game. Also, this would make a nice opening into Living Season 4 Episode 3. We make up with Braham, then we go on to hunt down Joko, before he can unleash the scarab plague on Tyria.

 

As much as I'd like to see this (and I think making this a Current Event would be perfect), I wouldn't hold my breath. Anet could have done the same thing with regards to giving us some definitive conclusion regarding Zojja but it seems like Anet can't be bothered to resolve that or any of the other plot threads they've left messily unresolved.

 

At this point we'd be better off writing fan fiction to seek/find the closure we're seeking for these plot threads.

[Castigator.3470]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

>

> As much as I'd like to see this (and I think making this a Current Event would be perfect), I wouldn't hold my breath. Anet could have done the same thing with regards to giving us some definitive conclusion regarding Zojja but it seems like Anet can't be bothered to resolve that or any of the other plot threads they've left messily unresolved.

>

> At this point we'd be better off writing fan fiction to seek/find the closure we're seeking for these plot threads.

 

While that is pessimism is not entirely unfounded, let's recall that season 3 began with Eir's funeral and was generally better in terms of pace than season 2. Season 4 hasn't been bad either so far. Maybe we'll get to see an apology.

[Cyrin.1035]

Lol! Why do we need an apology from Braham? We need his death confirmation and any gear he has. The story and game overall would vastly improve with his demise.

[Cyrin.1035]

> @"Polarfairy.8046" said:

> The way I see it, Braham has been very annoying but he is also a young man who has been through a lot. After a lifetime of trying to find his identity, his family, his mother was taken from him before he really even knew her. The world has also been consistently and perpetually falling apart around his ears, literally, and I would imagine it's much harder to process a death in your life when you have to put the rest of the world before your own feelings. He will have been going through the stages of grief and loss, anger taking a long time to move on from and he has finally taken the time to possibly make it to acceptance. We don't need an apology because he was feeling emotions he couldn't handle, he just needed some time.

 

:'( :'( :'(

Oh please... Enough justifying the writer's amateur work. Braham is annoying and a waste of development time because he has been so poorly written. A once great and interesting character reduced to an unnecessary thorn in the Commander's side. Like many other characters that the current writers have ruined.

 

At this point, the only solution that would benefit the game and the game's development time is to axe his character off quick like they did Eir. Have some special ceremony (probably a cheesy, empty, repetitive one like these writers are fond of) and let us move on so we can focus on characters and plotlines that actually matter.

[Ardid.7203]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

>

> Oh, yes. Her crimes of keeping a world-saving egg out of Mordrem hands (which would destroy it) while being conflicted about who her allies are due to the constant whispering of an Elder Dragon's voice in her mind.

>

> Or are you referring to her mercy killing a would-be torture victim to keep out knowledge of a maniacal villain's hands?

>

> Or are you referring to her killing literally irredeemable terrorists, murderers, torturers, and their recruiters?

>

> Caithe's overall actions are far better than the Commander's at this point, in all honesty, and her actions during Season 2 and Heart of Thorns would fall under a very obvious case of "cannot be held accountable for her actions due to influence from an Elder Dragon" like any other sylvari who had done something bad while resisting Mordremoth's call and never actually succumbed. Like sylvari Commanders temporarily turning on their allies while fighting Mordremoth.

 

- Acting under pressure and distress is usually considered a mitigating circumstance, but doesn't simply free a person from responsibility. In fact, taking action while under the influence of a mind altering thing is risky, not recommended and even considered criminal in many places. Acting instead of a more capable or ready party is obstruction and a risk, too.

- Killing for mercy is killing anyway, and punished in many cultures. However, was that really mercy? Why didn't she killed Faolain instead?

- War acts are usually put under special rules, were the action is permited, and even preemptively forgiven, by the powers of the moment. The true ethics behind such acts doesn't belong to said powers, however. Many acts of war are judged later to determine if they were crimes or not.

 

But I wasn't thinking on all that when I wrote my post.

 

I was thinking on Caithe killing a whole tribe of perfectly pacific and innocent centaurs.

I was also thinking on Caithe not sharing extremely important info that would have saved an enormous amount of lives when the Pact Fleet traveled to Maguuma.

(Also, I've never said the Commander is much better, anyway. He/she probably should be judged too...)

 

Going back to Braham, my point is he is far less stained, and even more restrained than other collaborators of our Commander. He can be insufferable and bratty, but he's way more honest. He even get things done in the meantime, unlike some others on our crew.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > > Caithe doesn't deserve to die. She deserve a fair trial were her crimes can be properly judged, and a punishment fit to her guilt (It COULD be death, to be honest, but let's not jump to conclusions).

> >

> > Oh, yes. Her crimes of keeping a world-saving egg out of Mordrem hands (which would destroy it) while being conflicted about who her allies are due to the constant whispering of an Elder Dragon's voice in her mind.

> >

> > Or are you referring to her mercy killing a would-be torture victim to keep out knowledge of a maniacal villain's hands?

> >

> > Or are you referring to her killing literally irredeemable terrorists, murderers, torturers, and their recruiters?

> >

> > Caithe's overall actions are far better than the Commander's at this point, in all honesty, and her actions during Season 2 and Heart of Thorns would fall under a very obvious case of "cannot be held accountable for her actions due to influence from an Elder Dragon" like any other sylvari who had done something bad while resisting Mordremoth's call and never actually succumbed. Like sylvari Commanders temporarily turning on their allies while fighting Mordremoth.

>

> - Acting under pressure and distress is usually considered a mitigating circumstance, but doesn't simply free a person from responsibility. In fact, taking action while under the influence of a mind altering thing is risky, not recommended and even considered criminal in many places. Acting instead of a more capable or ready party is obstruction and a risk, too.

> - Killing for mercy is killing anyway, and punished in many cultures. However, was that really mercy? Why didn't she killed Faolain instead?

> - War acts are usually put under special rules, were the action is permited, and even preemptively forgiven, by the powers of the moment. The true ethics behind such acts doesn't belong to said powers, however. Many acts of war are judged later to determine if they were crimes or not.

>

> But I wasn't thinking on all that when I wrote my post.

>

> I was thinking on Caithe killing a whole tribe of perfectly pacific and innocent centaurs.

> I was also thinking on Caithe not sharing extremely important info that would have saved an enormous amount of lives when the Pact Fleet traveled to Maguuma.

> (Also, I've never said the Commander is much better, anyway. He/she probably should be judged too...)

 

Caithe was acting in self-defense when killing the centaurs of the Silverwastes. Faolain and her to-be Nightmare Court starting slaughtering them while Caithe was peacefully meeting with one of them, then leaped to her lover's defense when she shouted that she was under attack. There was no malicious intent there, nor with any of the crimes listed above. On top of all that, there's the issue that she is sylvari and their laws are very poorly defined, if they even have any outside of Ventari's tablet (which is really more akin to the Ten Commandments than any legal document). Charr could be brought to a tribune, humans can be put on trial, and I'm sure the norn and asura have similar justice systems, but the sylvari lack most of the things other cultures do, and it's not right for a non-sylvari to come in and enforce any form of morality that doesn't happen in their territory. As such, Caithe will never have a formal trial, but if she were, she acted with the best intentions instead of selfish ones and would probably be exonerated.

 

> Going back to Braham, my point is he is far less stained, and even more restrained than other collaborators of our Commander. He can be insufferable and bratty, but he's way more honest. He even get things done in the meantime, unlike some others on our crew.

I have to agree with all of this. Braham may have spoken brashly and acted without thinking, but he had also just lost his mother with whom he had just been reunited and was starting to get to know. Having her taken by a dragon minion (and Faolain in part), he lashed out. He didn't know that killing another dragon would cause more problems when he took New Destiny's Edge northwards, and he was rightly surprised when Jormag retreated right in the middle of a battle. I can't blame him all that much for his attitude, and nothing we could've said short of "Let's kill Jormag" would've placated him. Even saying, "let's think about this for a minute" wasn't good enough. Besides, that moment on that space rock was a bit of a bonding experience, and while not a full apology, you could probably call it the norn equivalent.