The forgotten Content[Dungeons]

[SoulSin.5682]

Dungeons don't need much actually, they just need to be useful for the current players development. (besides skin hunting)

My Suggestions for dungeons would be:

 

1. Add some QoL change to some annoying mechanics in some dungeons. Point is not to made then easier, just less buggy.

2. New uses for dungeon tokens besides buying exotics and making crafting itens for legendary itens. Perhaps unique trinkets for each dungeon?

3. Just like other contents in the game, dungeons should be inserted in the road for ascended itens and legendary crafting. Dungeons cold get their own Ascended stuff (same skin as current exotic armors perhaps?) and maybe drop itens like Legendary Insight and Stabilizing Matrix). naturally, it would follow the same rule as other game modes (like buy Dungeon Token + Grandmaster marks + gold or something like that).

 

Story modes of dungeons could be soloable by players in the level range of the dungeon. They ARE part of the game story and sucks when you cant find party for then.

 

Talking about daylies, we could have a Daily rotation for dungeons. Like today we do Sorrows Embrace, complete all paths and get bonus tokens and gold.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I'm just happy they've decided to keep dungeons in the game despite having officially abandoned further dungeon development in favor of fractals. While I personally would like to see dungeons make a comeback, I can live with Anet's decision to pivot away from them.

 

I've experienced dungeons as a _great_ teaching tool, actually. I have yet to set foot in a raid (or even read up on the fights), so I *don't* mean "teaching tool" to mean "teaching tool for raid mechanics." Rather, what I mean is that since the dungeons _are_ so cheesable and the fights are lower stake thanks to weird mechanics like stacking in a corner and pulling bosses/mobs, the simplified combat can actually give you a chance to explain things. More importantly, because the mechanics are simpler, I find that new players guided by experienced vets have the breathing room to observe their own combat a bit better. I've taught more than one new player about keeping track of boon generation/uptime and using combo fields, both of which incidentally work extremely well with melee stacking.

 

In fact, the simplicity of dungeon strategies combined with the hardiness of dungeon elite mobs and bosses makes it ideal for me to take a group of 3 (myself, and just 1 or 2 new players) into a dungeon for teaching purposes. The fights don't require new players to read extensively beforehand or half-hour chat essays to fully explain, so there's less to keep track of. On the other hand, mobs are tough enough such that new players have a chance to run through rotations several times and actually practice tightening them, syncronizing cooldowns, not wasting combo-generating moves before the right fields are up, etc. It feels like a really solid compromise to me - easy enough so that you are doing more than desperately keeping up with mechanics, but hard enough that varying your efforts have observable effect.

 

The fact that dungeons don't teach raid mechanics is, in my opinion, entirely a result of GW2's evolution as a whole rather than a deficiency in dungeon design. As far as I'm aware, raids were not planned as GW2's endgame content, so it's not like they knew raids with specific mechanics were in the pipeline but intentionally designed dungeons without those mechanics.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

> > >

> > > Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

> > >

> > > A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

> > >

> > > PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

> >

> > there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

>

> They don't think its better. That's corporate speak. Which I mentioned above that you'd have to be foolish to believe them. Arena net is lying to us about it. This is evident. Dungeons were meant to teach new players about future mechanics in things like Fractals. Fractals can't replace dungeons as they've said previously because once you get to level 80 you should be aware of the mechanics you'll need to know in the Fractals already. But in order to get into fractals you pretty much need a Veteran player to teach you. 5 new people wont have the appropriate skills to be able to easily figure it out. Dungeons were supposed to be the teaching tool. Fractals are not and can't be that replacement. This is self evident. Arena net is lying about it, and shamefully so.

 

Saying something is self-evident doesn't make it so. Fractals don't require a pre school mode. They already have a range of difficulty.

 

Fractals are dungeons with a better design and a new name.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > > i never saw the appeal in beating a dead horse

> > > >

> > > > Wrong Analogy. The Raids thing was also considered a Dead horse as was expansions since Arena net had said they weren't going to do that stuff when they released the game, preferring more intimate content with Dungeons and fractals as well as saying they'd rather do living world. So In both these cases those were "Dead horses" as you put it, but its not the case. We have to keep pushing it.

> > > >

> > > > A better Analogy would be "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

> > > >

> > > > PS: Stop being defeatist. You're not helping anyone.

> > >

> > > there's a difference between a new feature to fill a niche and a feature that was shot behind the shed and replaced with a feature that anet thinks better in every way.

> >

> > They don't think its better. That's corporate speak. Which I mentioned above that you'd have to be foolish to believe them. Arena net is lying to us about it. This is evident. Dungeons were meant to teach new players about future mechanics in things like Fractals. Fractals can't replace dungeons as they've said previously because once you get to level 80 you should be aware of the mechanics you'll need to know in the Fractals already. But in order to get into fractals you pretty much need a Veteran player to teach you. 5 new people wont have the appropriate skills to be able to easily figure it out. Dungeons were supposed to be the teaching tool. Fractals are not and can't be that replacement. This is self evident. Arena net is lying about it, and shamefully so.

>

> Saying something is self-evident doesn't make it so. Fractals don't require a pre school mode. They already have a range of difficulty.

>

> Fractals are dungeons with a better design and a new name.

 

I think people are looking for an in between, Fractals are meant to be fast and Raids are mainly boss fights. Dungeons are like the middle ground between the two a combination of exploring, fighting mobs/bosses and has a bit of length to it.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> Dungeons don't need much actually, they just need to be useful for the current players development. (besides skin hunting)

> My Suggestions for dungeons would be:

>

> 1. Add some QoL change to some annoying mechanics in some dungeons. Point is not to made then easier, just less buggy.

> 2. New uses for dungeon tokens besides buying exotics and making crafting itens for legendary itens. Perhaps unique trinkets for each dungeon?

> 3. Just like other contents in the game, dungeons should be inserted in the road for ascended itens and legendary crafting. Dungeons cold get their own Ascended stuff (same skin as current exotic armors perhaps?) and maybe drop itens like Legendary Insight and Stabilizing Matrix). naturally, it would follow the same rule as other game modes (like buy Dungeon Token + Grandmaster marks + gold or something like that).

>

> Story modes of dungeons could be soloable by players in the level range of the dungeon. They ARE part of the game story and sucks when you cant find party for then.

>

> Talking about daylies, we could have a Daily rotation for dungeons. Like today we do Sorrows Embrace, complete all paths and get bonus tokens and gold.

 

Dungeons are already too easy for even a half competent group. PoF elite specs made dungeons even easier, the dps is huge. In that regard, dungeons offer you a fast way to earn tokens, which can be used for exotic armor/rune/exotic weapon purchase. Moreover, a unique trinket is tied to each dungeon, upon unlocking every armor and weapon skin of that dungeon. Adding anything more in rewards, considering the speed you clear most dungeon paths, would be not balanced when compared to fractals, let's say. Dungeons are dead, its best that devs focus on other content.

[pakuras.7652]

I think some people forget that major part of GW2 is intended to entertain casual players. Fractals up to 80 and above, where you have to deal with multiple afflictions also aren't challenging. Maybe one with underwater ruins, but just because underwater combat is hard in general. Fractals just give better rewards and do it much faster. That's why almost noone does dungeons. And requirement to finish story mode once per char should be changed to once per account.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Dungeons are already too easy for even a half competent group. PoF elite specs made dungeons even easier, the dps is huge. In that regard, dungeons offer you a fast way to earn tokens, which can be used for exotic armor/rune/exotic weapon purchase. Moreover, a unique trinket is tied to each dungeon, upon unlocking every armor and weapon skin of that dungeon. Adding anything more in rewards, considering the speed you clear most dungeon paths, would be not balanced when compared to fractals, let's say. Dungeons are dead, its best that devs focus on other content.

 

Dungeons is one of the few contents available to players without expansion. They are not dead. People just don't have a reason to play then. Compared to normal PvE and PS progress, dungeons are far from being easy. New players, mostly the ones who are not lvl 80 still have quite some trouble with most dungeon paths. In fact, a full party of new players around lvl 30~40 will never be able to complete AC without a proper guide. The spike of difficulty is high.

 

The fact that Fractal outshadows everything *is* the problem.

 

There is no need for more dungeons, nor to revamp current ones completely. Just make then give then rewards that make up to date with current content.

Or at the VERY LEAST, give the token shop content up to date. This way they don't need to actually change anything.

If Fractals give rewards faster, good. I hate fractals and i prefer to run something else.

 

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Dungeons are already too easy for even a half competent group. PoF elite specs made dungeons even easier, the dps is huge. In that regard, dungeons offer you a fast way to earn tokens, which can be used for exotic armor/rune/exotic weapon purchase. Moreover, a unique trinket is tied to each dungeon, upon unlocking every armor and weapon skin of that dungeon. Adding anything more in rewards, considering the speed you clear most dungeon paths, would be not balanced when compared to fractals, let's say. Dungeons are dead, its best that devs focus on other content.

>

> Dungeons is one of the few contents available to players without expansion. They are not dead. People just don't have a reason to play then. Compared to normal PvE and PS progress, dungeons are far from being easy. New players, mostly the ones who are not lvl 80 still have quite some trouble with most dungeon paths. In fact, a full party of new players around lvl 30~40 will never be able to complete AC without a proper guide. The spike of difficulty is high.

>

> The fact that Fractal outshadows everything *is* the problem.

>

> There is no need for more dungeons, nor to revamp current ones completely. Just make then give then rewards that make up to date with current content.

> Or at the VERY LEAST, give the token shop content up to date. This way they don't need to actually change anything.

> If Fractals give rewards faster, good. I hate fractals and i prefer to run something else.

>

 

Dungeons are more than fine the way they are now, reward-wise. I mean, you can earn many tokens (100+ per path) which means access to unique exotic armor +weapons with several stats being available, and super easy paths exist. You can do 8 paths /day, for an additional 5g. It is easy content, with the insane dps + heals PoF and HoT specs offer. Now, if its about f2p players making more gold (who are Core players without access to expansions), I dont know what to say. They have already enough content for free. May as well support the conpany and buy an expansion or two.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"pakuras.7652" said:

> I think some people forget that major part of GW2 is intended to entertain casual players. Fractals up to 80 and above, where you have to deal with multiple afflictions also aren't challenging. Maybe one with underwater ruins, but just because underwater combat is hard in general. Fractals just give better rewards and do it much faster. That's why almost noone does dungeons. And requirement to finish story mode once per char should be changed to once per account.

 

What!?

 

First off, Aquatic, please. That's like the second easiest fractal after Jade Maw. The boss is trivial - you break it's defiance bar whenever possible, you have your druid heal you and you Overload Air. Or whatever you like doing.

 

Second, dungeons. Dungeon rewards are perceived to be much lower than they actually are. You get lots of loot (some of which sells remarkably high on the TP), you get the tokens which are quite valuable and you get liquid gold from the repeatable achievements. Just last night I played all 3 AC paths with friends. Not only did our LFG fill in a matter of seconds, we also had absolutely no trouble anywhere. We basically one-shot all the bosses - break the defiance bar, kill. Dungeons are *easy*.

[Einlanzer.1627]

yeah, this honestly deserves to continue gaining momentum and being talked about until they finally decide to do something about it. Abandoning dungeon content was a poor decision from the get go - one that's long overdue for being reversed.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

> >

> > When trying to convince a new player to stay in the game who enjoys PvE one of the first things they ask about is Dungeons. The question usually goes like this "Which dungeons provide the best loot/have the best rewards?" Or "I want to run dungeons, why is it so difficult to get a group for it?" And it shows me right off the bat as a veteran player that there is a certain expectation from them that isn't being met by the Balance team for PvE. New players expect that dungeons are supposed to be the content they do while leveling and expect that they are an option for the End game. Yet in both cases dungeons fail their expectation. And when they talk to veteran players the response from the community is almost always filled with bitterness.

> >

> > First impressions are extremely important. But dungeons give an extremely bad first impression of the game. Part of this has to do with how the community complains about the forgotten content but the other part of it is that their complaints are justified. Arena net gives off this impression to new players that they don't care about the old content and it instantly puts the thought in their head "Well if I enjoy something It will be ignored and forgotten in the future." This isn't something any business in gaming should want. Forgotten old content is why many players leave MMOs in favor of new ones. WoW for example had did this for years, obsoleting their old content in favor of new content and this eventually cut their numbers. I'm not saying this is the only reason but to say it wasn't a factor is foolish. Many WoW veterans have told me that they quit because of this reason and that game is seeing new energy with their next expansion from what I've heard. But that's because they are reinvigorating old content with new things.

> >

> > Dungeons are clunky in their current form. Their difficulty scaling is usually based on cheap tricks and players have been insensitivity into bad habits which lead to one of the worst PvE balancing experiences in the game and those tactics still exist in dungeons. Dungeons are a relic of a bygone era of GW2 that doesn't fit the current balance of the game. Because of this the dungeons being used as a teaching tool for players to get into Raids or Fractals just isn't an option because of what's optimal in Dungeons compared to the other content is quite different. Healers are not required in dungeons, Condition damage is often punished, stacking in the corner is rewarded and strange mechanics are used in the dungeons that have no equivalent outside of that specific fight. As a teaching tool, dungeons give players skills they don't need and fail to teach skills they do need. But this is the content that was supposed to be the preparation for Fractals. Yet it fails at this.

> >

> > Additionally, Arena net have stated that Fractals do everything that dungeons are supposed to do or capable of doing. Yet no one but the hardest core of fanbois really believes this. Its clearly a cost cutting measure and that's it. And part of the community has just accepted that and wont even ask for scraps from the devs when we should be demanding the world. Fractals fail as a replacement for Dungeons because the experience you get, even if its only a physiological one is extremely different. Fractals are like mini dungeons. Bit sized bits of content that almost acts as a sampler platter. This isn't what I'd call a replacement. 4 sides can't replace a steak. Dungeons uniqueness would allow them to actively teach players how to do the harder content without as much of a risk. A boss that acts as a quicker fight that fights kinda like Gorseval but doesn't have the ability to instantly kill the party if you fail to interrupt him could be great at the end of a dungeon. Having mechanics that seem similar, like the green Circles in Vale but as a mini game in a dungeon about color matching could be a good way to get players used to these mechanics without having to be punished. Fractals can't teach this because of its Roll in the game, but dungeons absolutely could because the roll they were supposed to have isn't being used.

> >

> > **Suggestions:**

> > With some of this in mind lets getting some suggestions going for dungeons. I'll post some of mine to really add new spice to the dungeons that could make them a unique experience for players looking to have some fun.

> > 1. **Party Bonus:** This idea for the dungeons is to help incentivise players to work together. Having a point system that shows up at the end of the dungeon that offers bonus rewards for the party for members using things like combo fields, healing allies, reviving downed allies, destroying break bards and so on could be a great way to help teach players to work together and teach them about these things.

> > 2. **Time Trial:** There are quite a few speedrunners in the community and having a timed trial leader board would be great for them. Giving them extra rewards or titles for completing each path in a specific time limit or gaining a daily record holder title or maybe a monthly one would be something that many players would absolutely love.

> > 3. **Dungeon Events:** Having Events that pop up In a dungeon run and perhaps even having them be random so they don't always pop up in the same run that add to your overall bonus rewards at the end of it could give players a reason to not just run past everything to get to the end as quickly as possible. These events would incentivize players to stick in the dungeons longer and get bonus rewards for doing so. But could be skipped without punishing the player for doing so.

> > 4. **Bonus Objective:** A daily bonus objective that you could do once a day in any dungeon path could be a good thing to add as well. Something extra you need to do much like the bonus objectives back in GW1 for the missions which could have its own unique title or reward track associated with it.

> > 5. **Hard Mode:** One of the biggest suggestions that Everyone I talk to who misses doing dungeons have said is the desire for a hard mode. Scaling all dungeons in hard mode up to level 80 and making it more challenging with more rewards and new rewards. This is highly desirable and gives even more replay value to the dungeon enthusiasts.

> > 6. **New Rewards/New Skins:** Going along with the Hard mode, having the Hard mode rewards be different from the Normal mode counterpart could be a major boon. New weapon and armor skins that are ascended could give players a great way to play this content over and over again. And considering that the armor would be dungeon armor the devs could do something really simple with it. Making them elite versions of Existing Dungeon armor. Using the same models as the previous armor sets but changing the skin much like they did with prestigious armor back in GW1. This would save arena net a lot of time in designing new armors while also making the fashion community of GW2 extremely happy.

> >

> > I know I'm not alone in wanting dungeons to return in a big way in GW2. In fact there are plenty of benefits of improving this content long term for the game. Short term is sounds like a pretty big work load and cost, but long term this really gives new players an extremely Good impression of the game right off the bat and helps keep GW2 far safer from losing players who could otherwise move on to a new game that does what GW2 does, but actually does keep their content relevant for longer. I feel that perhaps all my suggestions don't need to be put in place, but I do know that dungeons should be updated for the health of the game. And we as players who love the game should absolutely DEMAND it! If we keep making the "Time and money" Excuse for arena net they will never give us what we want because we wont demand it from them. If you think being insistent doesn't work, well there are other games that prove that it absolutely does. Just look at Nintendo and their game Super Smash bros. The SSB community has been screaming for years for Sonic, Megaman, Cloud and many others to get in the game, something that probably SHOULD have been impossible for nintendo, but they kept on demanding it and demanding it. And you know what they got? Almost everything they wanted from the roster! It should show you just how much of an impact that we as fans can have on a game. Arena Net is a company, yes. But they are also beholden to US! They need to give us what we want because there are hundreds of other options we can take. So they have a lot of pressure to listen to us as long as we demand it from them. So no more excuses, Arena net! Update the dungeons!

>

> It’s not Forgotten, it’s Abandoned, Anet Stated that they are no longer going to support the content especially with the Dungeon team no longer being existent, and they also stated that Fractals took the place of Dungeons and that’s what they are actually Supporting.

 

Which means nothing. They have the ability to change their minds at any given time, and pressure needs to keep building until they do. It's absurd to have abandoned all of the original dungeon content. FotM is not enough on its own. The game needs real dungeons.

 

If there's anything that deserves to be abandoned, it's the PS.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

> > >

> > > When trying to convince a new player to stay in the game who enjoys PvE one of the first things they ask about is Dungeons. The question usually goes like this "Which dungeons provide the best loot/have the best rewards?" Or "I want to run dungeons, why is it so difficult to get a group for it?" And it shows me right off the bat as a veteran player that there is a certain expectation from them that isn't being met by the Balance team for PvE. New players expect that dungeons are supposed to be the content they do while leveling and expect that they are an option for the End game. Yet in both cases dungeons fail their expectation. And when they talk to veteran players the response from the community is almost always filled with bitterness.

> > >

> > > First impressions are extremely important. But dungeons give an extremely bad first impression of the game. Part of this has to do with how the community complains about the forgotten content but the other part of it is that their complaints are justified. Arena net gives off this impression to new players that they don't care about the old content and it instantly puts the thought in their head "Well if I enjoy something It will be ignored and forgotten in the future." This isn't something any business in gaming should want. Forgotten old content is why many players leave MMOs in favor of new ones. WoW for example had did this for years, obsoleting their old content in favor of new content and this eventually cut their numbers. I'm not saying this is the only reason but to say it wasn't a factor is foolish. Many WoW veterans have told me that they quit because of this reason and that game is seeing new energy with their next expansion from what I've heard. But that's because they are reinvigorating old content with new things.

> > >

> > > Dungeons are clunky in their current form. Their difficulty scaling is usually based on cheap tricks and players have been insensitivity into bad habits which lead to one of the worst PvE balancing experiences in the game and those tactics still exist in dungeons. Dungeons are a relic of a bygone era of GW2 that doesn't fit the current balance of the game. Because of this the dungeons being used as a teaching tool for players to get into Raids or Fractals just isn't an option because of what's optimal in Dungeons compared to the other content is quite different. Healers are not required in dungeons, Condition damage is often punished, stacking in the corner is rewarded and strange mechanics are used in the dungeons that have no equivalent outside of that specific fight. As a teaching tool, dungeons give players skills they don't need and fail to teach skills they do need. But this is the content that was supposed to be the preparation for Fractals. Yet it fails at this.

> > >

> > > Additionally, Arena net have stated that Fractals do everything that dungeons are supposed to do or capable of doing. Yet no one but the hardest core of fanbois really believes this. Its clearly a cost cutting measure and that's it. And part of the community has just accepted that and wont even ask for scraps from the devs when we should be demanding the world. Fractals fail as a replacement for Dungeons because the experience you get, even if its only a physiological one is extremely different. Fractals are like mini dungeons. Bit sized bits of content that almost acts as a sampler platter. This isn't what I'd call a replacement. 4 sides can't replace a steak. Dungeons uniqueness would allow them to actively teach players how to do the harder content without as much of a risk. A boss that acts as a quicker fight that fights kinda like Gorseval but doesn't have the ability to instantly kill the party if you fail to interrupt him could be great at the end of a dungeon. Having mechanics that seem similar, like the green Circles in Vale but as a mini game in a dungeon about color matching could be a good way to get players used to these mechanics without having to be punished. Fractals can't teach this because of its Roll in the game, but dungeons absolutely could because the roll they were supposed to have isn't being used.

> > >

> > > **Suggestions:**

> > > With some of this in mind lets getting some suggestions going for dungeons. I'll post some of mine to really add new spice to the dungeons that could make them a unique experience for players looking to have some fun.

> > > 1. **Party Bonus:** This idea for the dungeons is to help incentivise players to work together. Having a point system that shows up at the end of the dungeon that offers bonus rewards for the party for members using things like combo fields, healing allies, reviving downed allies, destroying break bards and so on could be a great way to help teach players to work together and teach them about these things.

> > > 2. **Time Trial:** There are quite a few speedrunners in the community and having a timed trial leader board would be great for them. Giving them extra rewards or titles for completing each path in a specific time limit or gaining a daily record holder title or maybe a monthly one would be something that many players would absolutely love.

> > > 3. **Dungeon Events:** Having Events that pop up In a dungeon run and perhaps even having them be random so they don't always pop up in the same run that add to your overall bonus rewards at the end of it could give players a reason to not just run past everything to get to the end as quickly as possible. These events would incentivize players to stick in the dungeons longer and get bonus rewards for doing so. But could be skipped without punishing the player for doing so.

> > > 4. **Bonus Objective:** A daily bonus objective that you could do once a day in any dungeon path could be a good thing to add as well. Something extra you need to do much like the bonus objectives back in GW1 for the missions which could have its own unique title or reward track associated with it.

> > > 5. **Hard Mode:** One of the biggest suggestions that Everyone I talk to who misses doing dungeons have said is the desire for a hard mode. Scaling all dungeons in hard mode up to level 80 and making it more challenging with more rewards and new rewards. This is highly desirable and gives even more replay value to the dungeon enthusiasts.

> > > 6. **New Rewards/New Skins:** Going along with the Hard mode, having the Hard mode rewards be different from the Normal mode counterpart could be a major boon. New weapon and armor skins that are ascended could give players a great way to play this content over and over again. And considering that the armor would be dungeon armor the devs could do something really simple with it. Making them elite versions of Existing Dungeon armor. Using the same models as the previous armor sets but changing the skin much like they did with prestigious armor back in GW1. This would save arena net a lot of time in designing new armors while also making the fashion community of GW2 extremely happy.

> > >

> > > I know I'm not alone in wanting dungeons to return in a big way in GW2. In fact there are plenty of benefits of improving this content long term for the game. Short term is sounds like a pretty big work load and cost, but long term this really gives new players an extremely Good impression of the game right off the bat and helps keep GW2 far safer from losing players who could otherwise move on to a new game that does what GW2 does, but actually does keep their content relevant for longer. I feel that perhaps all my suggestions don't need to be put in place, but I do know that dungeons should be updated for the health of the game. And we as players who love the game should absolutely DEMAND it! If we keep making the "Time and money" Excuse for arena net they will never give us what we want because we wont demand it from them. If you think being insistent doesn't work, well there are other games that prove that it absolutely does. Just look at Nintendo and their game Super Smash bros. The SSB community has been screaming for years for Sonic, Megaman, Cloud and many others to get in the game, something that probably SHOULD have been impossible for nintendo, but they kept on demanding it and demanding it. And you know what they got? Almost everything they wanted from the roster! It should show you just how much of an impact that we as fans can have on a game. Arena Net is a company, yes. But they are also beholden to US! They need to give us what we want because there are hundreds of other options we can take. So they have a lot of pressure to listen to us as long as we demand it from them. So no more excuses, Arena net! Update the dungeons!

> >

> > It’s not Forgotten, it’s Abandoned, Anet Stated that they are no longer going to support the content especially with the Dungeon team no longer being existent, and they also stated that Fractals took the place of Dungeons and that’s what they are actually Supporting.

>

> Which means nothing. They have the ability to change their minds at any given time, and pressure needs to keep building until they do. It's absurd to have abandoned all of the original dungeon content. FotM is not enough on its own. The game needs real dungeons.

>

> If there's anything that deserves to be abandoned, it's the PS.

 

What can be done in a new dungeon that cant be done in a new fractal mate?

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

> > > >

> > > > When trying to convince a new player to stay in the game who enjoys PvE one of the first things they ask about is Dungeons. The question usually goes like this "Which dungeons provide the best loot/have the best rewards?" Or "I want to run dungeons, why is it so difficult to get a group for it?" And it shows me right off the bat as a veteran player that there is a certain expectation from them that isn't being met by the Balance team for PvE. New players expect that dungeons are supposed to be the content they do while leveling and expect that they are an option for the End game. Yet in both cases dungeons fail their expectation. And when they talk to veteran players the response from the community is almost always filled with bitterness.

> > > >

> > > > First impressions are extremely important. But dungeons give an extremely bad first impression of the game. Part of this has to do with how the community complains about the forgotten content but the other part of it is that their complaints are justified. Arena net gives off this impression to new players that they don't care about the old content and it instantly puts the thought in their head "Well if I enjoy something It will be ignored and forgotten in the future." This isn't something any business in gaming should want. Forgotten old content is why many players leave MMOs in favor of new ones. WoW for example had did this for years, obsoleting their old content in favor of new content and this eventually cut their numbers. I'm not saying this is the only reason but to say it wasn't a factor is foolish. Many WoW veterans have told me that they quit because of this reason and that game is seeing new energy with their next expansion from what I've heard. But that's because they are reinvigorating old content with new things.

> > > >

> > > > Dungeons are clunky in their current form. Their difficulty scaling is usually based on cheap tricks and players have been insensitivity into bad habits which lead to one of the worst PvE balancing experiences in the game and those tactics still exist in dungeons. Dungeons are a relic of a bygone era of GW2 that doesn't fit the current balance of the game. Because of this the dungeons being used as a teaching tool for players to get into Raids or Fractals just isn't an option because of what's optimal in Dungeons compared to the other content is quite different. Healers are not required in dungeons, Condition damage is often punished, stacking in the corner is rewarded and strange mechanics are used in the dungeons that have no equivalent outside of that specific fight. As a teaching tool, dungeons give players skills they don't need and fail to teach skills they do need. But this is the content that was supposed to be the preparation for Fractals. Yet it fails at this.

> > > >

> > > > Additionally, Arena net have stated that Fractals do everything that dungeons are supposed to do or capable of doing. Yet no one but the hardest core of fanbois really believes this. Its clearly a cost cutting measure and that's it. And part of the community has just accepted that and wont even ask for scraps from the devs when we should be demanding the world. Fractals fail as a replacement for Dungeons because the experience you get, even if its only a physiological one is extremely different. Fractals are like mini dungeons. Bit sized bits of content that almost acts as a sampler platter. This isn't what I'd call a replacement. 4 sides can't replace a steak. Dungeons uniqueness would allow them to actively teach players how to do the harder content without as much of a risk. A boss that acts as a quicker fight that fights kinda like Gorseval but doesn't have the ability to instantly kill the party if you fail to interrupt him could be great at the end of a dungeon. Having mechanics that seem similar, like the green Circles in Vale but as a mini game in a dungeon about color matching could be a good way to get players used to these mechanics without having to be punished. Fractals can't teach this because of its Roll in the game, but dungeons absolutely could because the roll they were supposed to have isn't being used.

> > > >

> > > > **Suggestions:**

> > > > With some of this in mind lets getting some suggestions going for dungeons. I'll post some of mine to really add new spice to the dungeons that could make them a unique experience for players looking to have some fun.

> > > > 1. **Party Bonus:** This idea for the dungeons is to help incentivise players to work together. Having a point system that shows up at the end of the dungeon that offers bonus rewards for the party for members using things like combo fields, healing allies, reviving downed allies, destroying break bards and so on could be a great way to help teach players to work together and teach them about these things.

> > > > 2. **Time Trial:** There are quite a few speedrunners in the community and having a timed trial leader board would be great for them. Giving them extra rewards or titles for completing each path in a specific time limit or gaining a daily record holder title or maybe a monthly one would be something that many players would absolutely love.

> > > > 3. **Dungeon Events:** Having Events that pop up In a dungeon run and perhaps even having them be random so they don't always pop up in the same run that add to your overall bonus rewards at the end of it could give players a reason to not just run past everything to get to the end as quickly as possible. These events would incentivize players to stick in the dungeons longer and get bonus rewards for doing so. But could be skipped without punishing the player for doing so.

> > > > 4. **Bonus Objective:** A daily bonus objective that you could do once a day in any dungeon path could be a good thing to add as well. Something extra you need to do much like the bonus objectives back in GW1 for the missions which could have its own unique title or reward track associated with it.

> > > > 5. **Hard Mode:** One of the biggest suggestions that Everyone I talk to who misses doing dungeons have said is the desire for a hard mode. Scaling all dungeons in hard mode up to level 80 and making it more challenging with more rewards and new rewards. This is highly desirable and gives even more replay value to the dungeon enthusiasts.

> > > > 6. **New Rewards/New Skins:** Going along with the Hard mode, having the Hard mode rewards be different from the Normal mode counterpart could be a major boon. New weapon and armor skins that are ascended could give players a great way to play this content over and over again. And considering that the armor would be dungeon armor the devs could do something really simple with it. Making them elite versions of Existing Dungeon armor. Using the same models as the previous armor sets but changing the skin much like they did with prestigious armor back in GW1. This would save arena net a lot of time in designing new armors while also making the fashion community of GW2 extremely happy.

> > > >

> > > > I know I'm not alone in wanting dungeons to return in a big way in GW2. In fact there are plenty of benefits of improving this content long term for the game. Short term is sounds like a pretty big work load and cost, but long term this really gives new players an extremely Good impression of the game right off the bat and helps keep GW2 far safer from losing players who could otherwise move on to a new game that does what GW2 does, but actually does keep their content relevant for longer. I feel that perhaps all my suggestions don't need to be put in place, but I do know that dungeons should be updated for the health of the game. And we as players who love the game should absolutely DEMAND it! If we keep making the "Time and money" Excuse for arena net they will never give us what we want because we wont demand it from them. If you think being insistent doesn't work, well there are other games that prove that it absolutely does. Just look at Nintendo and their game Super Smash bros. The SSB community has been screaming for years for Sonic, Megaman, Cloud and many others to get in the game, something that probably SHOULD have been impossible for nintendo, but they kept on demanding it and demanding it. And you know what they got? Almost everything they wanted from the roster! It should show you just how much of an impact that we as fans can have on a game. Arena Net is a company, yes. But they are also beholden to US! They need to give us what we want because there are hundreds of other options we can take. So they have a lot of pressure to listen to us as long as we demand it from them. So no more excuses, Arena net! Update the dungeons!

> > >

> > > It’s not Forgotten, it’s Abandoned, Anet Stated that they are no longer going to support the content especially with the Dungeon team no longer being existent, and they also stated that Fractals took the place of Dungeons and that’s what they are actually Supporting.

> >

> > Which means nothing. They have the ability to change their minds at any given time, and pressure needs to keep building until they do. It's absurd to have abandoned all of the original dungeon content. FotM is not enough on its own. The game needs real dungeons.

> >

> > If there's anything that deserves to be abandoned, it's the PS.

>

> What can be done in a new dungeon that cant be done in a new fractal mate?

 

FotM are mini dungeons that utilize their own framework. That alone is a sufficient to say "they aren't enough". More than that, however, world dungeons add a sense of immersion that FotM can't by tying dungeons to specific locations , enhancing the flavor, depth, and lore of those locations. I think this sense of immersion is one of the main things GW2 is lacking in. A lot of people don't consciously recognize it, but MMOs really need this to attract and keep players.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

> > > > >

> > > > > When trying to convince a new player to stay in the game who enjoys PvE one of the first things they ask about is Dungeons. The question usually goes like this "Which dungeons provide the best loot/have the best rewards?" Or "I want to run dungeons, why is it so difficult to get a group for it?" And it shows me right off the bat as a veteran player that there is a certain expectation from them that isn't being met by the Balance team for PvE. New players expect that dungeons are supposed to be the content they do while leveling and expect that they are an option for the End game. Yet in both cases dungeons fail their expectation. And when they talk to veteran players the response from the community is almost always filled with bitterness.

> > > > >

> > > > > First impressions are extremely important. But dungeons give an extremely bad first impression of the game. Part of this has to do with how the community complains about the forgotten content but the other part of it is that their complaints are justified. Arena net gives off this impression to new players that they don't care about the old content and it instantly puts the thought in their head "Well if I enjoy something It will be ignored and forgotten in the future." This isn't something any business in gaming should want. Forgotten old content is why many players leave MMOs in favor of new ones. WoW for example had did this for years, obsoleting their old content in favor of new content and this eventually cut their numbers. I'm not saying this is the only reason but to say it wasn't a factor is foolish. Many WoW veterans have told me that they quit because of this reason and that game is seeing new energy with their next expansion from what I've heard. But that's because they are reinvigorating old content with new things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dungeons are clunky in their current form. Their difficulty scaling is usually based on cheap tricks and players have been insensitivity into bad habits which lead to one of the worst PvE balancing experiences in the game and those tactics still exist in dungeons. Dungeons are a relic of a bygone era of GW2 that doesn't fit the current balance of the game. Because of this the dungeons being used as a teaching tool for players to get into Raids or Fractals just isn't an option because of what's optimal in Dungeons compared to the other content is quite different. Healers are not required in dungeons, Condition damage is often punished, stacking in the corner is rewarded and strange mechanics are used in the dungeons that have no equivalent outside of that specific fight. As a teaching tool, dungeons give players skills they don't need and fail to teach skills they do need. But this is the content that was supposed to be the preparation for Fractals. Yet it fails at this.

> > > > >

> > > > > Additionally, Arena net have stated that Fractals do everything that dungeons are supposed to do or capable of doing. Yet no one but the hardest core of fanbois really believes this. Its clearly a cost cutting measure and that's it. And part of the community has just accepted that and wont even ask for scraps from the devs when we should be demanding the world. Fractals fail as a replacement for Dungeons because the experience you get, even if its only a physiological one is extremely different. Fractals are like mini dungeons. Bit sized bits of content that almost acts as a sampler platter. This isn't what I'd call a replacement. 4 sides can't replace a steak. Dungeons uniqueness would allow them to actively teach players how to do the harder content without as much of a risk. A boss that acts as a quicker fight that fights kinda like Gorseval but doesn't have the ability to instantly kill the party if you fail to interrupt him could be great at the end of a dungeon. Having mechanics that seem similar, like the green Circles in Vale but as a mini game in a dungeon about color matching could be a good way to get players used to these mechanics without having to be punished. Fractals can't teach this because of its Roll in the game, but dungeons absolutely could because the roll they were supposed to have isn't being used.

> > > > >

> > > > > **Suggestions:**

> > > > > With some of this in mind lets getting some suggestions going for dungeons. I'll post some of mine to really add new spice to the dungeons that could make them a unique experience for players looking to have some fun.

> > > > > 1. **Party Bonus:** This idea for the dungeons is to help incentivise players to work together. Having a point system that shows up at the end of the dungeon that offers bonus rewards for the party for members using things like combo fields, healing allies, reviving downed allies, destroying break bards and so on could be a great way to help teach players to work together and teach them about these things.

> > > > > 2. **Time Trial:** There are quite a few speedrunners in the community and having a timed trial leader board would be great for them. Giving them extra rewards or titles for completing each path in a specific time limit or gaining a daily record holder title or maybe a monthly one would be something that many players would absolutely love.

> > > > > 3. **Dungeon Events:** Having Events that pop up In a dungeon run and perhaps even having them be random so they don't always pop up in the same run that add to your overall bonus rewards at the end of it could give players a reason to not just run past everything to get to the end as quickly as possible. These events would incentivize players to stick in the dungeons longer and get bonus rewards for doing so. But could be skipped without punishing the player for doing so.

> > > > > 4. **Bonus Objective:** A daily bonus objective that you could do once a day in any dungeon path could be a good thing to add as well. Something extra you need to do much like the bonus objectives back in GW1 for the missions which could have its own unique title or reward track associated with it.

> > > > > 5. **Hard Mode:** One of the biggest suggestions that Everyone I talk to who misses doing dungeons have said is the desire for a hard mode. Scaling all dungeons in hard mode up to level 80 and making it more challenging with more rewards and new rewards. This is highly desirable and gives even more replay value to the dungeon enthusiasts.

> > > > > 6. **New Rewards/New Skins:** Going along with the Hard mode, having the Hard mode rewards be different from the Normal mode counterpart could be a major boon. New weapon and armor skins that are ascended could give players a great way to play this content over and over again. And considering that the armor would be dungeon armor the devs could do something really simple with it. Making them elite versions of Existing Dungeon armor. Using the same models as the previous armor sets but changing the skin much like they did with prestigious armor back in GW1. This would save arena net a lot of time in designing new armors while also making the fashion community of GW2 extremely happy.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know I'm not alone in wanting dungeons to return in a big way in GW2. In fact there are plenty of benefits of improving this content long term for the game. Short term is sounds like a pretty big work load and cost, but long term this really gives new players an extremely Good impression of the game right off the bat and helps keep GW2 far safer from losing players who could otherwise move on to a new game that does what GW2 does, but actually does keep their content relevant for longer. I feel that perhaps all my suggestions don't need to be put in place, but I do know that dungeons should be updated for the health of the game. And we as players who love the game should absolutely DEMAND it! If we keep making the "Time and money" Excuse for arena net they will never give us what we want because we wont demand it from them. If you think being insistent doesn't work, well there are other games that prove that it absolutely does. Just look at Nintendo and their game Super Smash bros. The SSB community has been screaming for years for Sonic, Megaman, Cloud and many others to get in the game, something that probably SHOULD have been impossible for nintendo, but they kept on demanding it and demanding it. And you know what they got? Almost everything they wanted from the roster! It should show you just how much of an impact that we as fans can have on a game. Arena Net is a company, yes. But they are also beholden to US! They need to give us what we want because there are hundreds of other options we can take. So they have a lot of pressure to listen to us as long as we demand it from them. So no more excuses, Arena net! Update the dungeons!

> > > >

> > > > It’s not Forgotten, it’s Abandoned, Anet Stated that they are no longer going to support the content especially with the Dungeon team no longer being existent, and they also stated that Fractals took the place of Dungeons and that’s what they are actually Supporting.

> > >

> > > Which means nothing. They have the ability to change their minds at any given time, and pressure needs to keep building until they do. It's absurd to have abandoned all of the original dungeon content. FotM is not enough on its own. The game needs real dungeons.

> > >

> > > If there's anything that deserves to be abandoned, it's the PS.

> >

> > What can be done in a new dungeon that cant be done in a new fractal mate?

>

> FotM are mini dungeons that utilize their own framework. That alone is a sufficient to say "they aren't enough". More than that, however, world dungeons add a sense of immersion that FotM can't by tying dungeons to specific locations , enhancing the flavor, depth, and lore of those locations. I think this sense of immersion is one of the main things GW2 is lacking in. A lot of people don't consciously recognize it, but MMOs really need this to attract and keep players.

 

FotM are only mini dungeons becouse before you were expected to do 3 random ones in 1 go.

They can make longer more themed fractals if they wanted to but people would complain that they are to long and boring to get same loot as the other quicker ones.

Havent seen one mmo out there that couldent work with the fractal setup gw2 have people just que up random lf dungeon que and get one of the dungeons in their level range.

 

Problem with gw2 is that its only 1 dungeon each level range hence why they probabely dident go that route.

So I disagree that your statement here would be any diffrent then adding longer themed fractals tied to the mists.

 

You do realise that each new dungeon group of 3-4 paths would have to have their own themed armor/weapons aswell making it alot more time consuming then adding the same 3-4 fractals I assume?

 

 

[reapex.8546]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > I find it funny people in here think fractals dont teach, t1 teaches you the mechanics to get up to t2 then t3 and t4.

> >

> > Have you even tried the same fractal on all dif brackets?

>

> But it doesn't teach you game mechanics or how they work. I've known people who went years without realizing what a combo field was and who had done fractals up to T4. Fractals teaches you how to do fractals. it doesn't teach you how to do end game content as a whole.

 

Okay, I wasn't going to comment until you said, "people who went years without realizing what a combo field was." When dungeons were popular 2012-2015 (before HoT), there were many veteran players that did not know what combo fields were. Dungeons, Personal Story, and Fractals does not require players to know what combo fields are. You can beat them, without knowing what they were.

[reapex.8546]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > What was supposed to be the introduction into End game content in GW2 as well as supposed to be part of that end game content that does a poor job at teaching new players how to play as well as being wildly unbalanced? Dungeons!

> >

>

> It’s not Forgotten, it’s Abandoned, Anet Stated that they are no longer going to support the content especially with the Dungeon team no longer being existent, and they also stated that Fractals took the place of Dungeons and that’s what they are actually Supporting.

 

This is absolutely true. There is no point trying to figure out old hard coded code that is working seemingly okay. Fractals are their new goal for 5-man instance content going forward.