Weapons shouldnt be locked behind elite specs

[iKeostuKen.2738]

A redesign wouldnt be needed for sword. Simply hide the heat effect from sword unless the holosmith elite spec is chosen, which would make it enabled. Recoding yes, but redesigning, not at all.

 

The entire heat system should have worked with all engineer weapons in the first place though.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Usually i would say no to this kind of topic BUT...

Elementalist (tempest) really should get sword. Sword is basically created for tempest, it gives all the tools that melee sword ele needs. Stability, high protection uptime, high vigor uptime, MELEE overloads, good healing to stay melee, auras for melee fight, stunbreaks and ofc not that 4sec CD for ur defensive skills.

[Voltekka.2375]

Yes, a mirage with shield is all we needed right now

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Been saying this since 2015, people say "its for balance purposes". Have a bow on core guardian would be way too op. Having GS on Scourge would be way too op. Having the sword on core ele would be way too op, guys.

 

Bunch of BS. If a certain weapon (such as the mesmers shield) would be too powerful on mirage, then do something something called NERF the weapon, not lock it behind an elite spec for non existent balance reasons. GW2 build diversity is garbage enough as is. With weapons being locked to elite specs, it only kills the variety even further.

 

But Anet doesn't understand, nor do whiteknights.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Yes, a mirage with shield is all we needed right now

 

Nerf the shield? Yea, i know, its a thing that can be done in video games.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Yes, a mirage with shield is all we needed right now

>

> Nerf the shield? Yea, i know, its a thing that can be done in video games.

 

they could still balance things out without nerving anything, just make it so that elite spec weapons can be used regardless but not in one weapon set.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > Yes, a mirage with shield is all we needed right now

> >

> > Nerf the shield? Yea, i know, its a thing that can be done in video games.

>

> they could still balance things out without nerving anything, just make it so that elite spec weapons can be used regardless but not in one weapon set.

 

They can do whatever, just give me more option. This game is almost six years old. Using the same weapons got stale 5y ago. Next elite spec and its weapon won't be out for another ~2y. They need to do something that refreshes their game. Removing and adding new traits would be another thing that i'd like to see, same for reworking weapons because there's simply too many trasj weapons in this game. Last time i saw a warrior use mace offhand we were in 2013. Why? Is it too hard for Anet to make TWO useful skills on the Mace offhand? Is it that difficult?

[Dual.8953]

I see more longevity out of the Especs if they keep things as they are. With things as they are they’re able to reuse weapons on new especs which will be necessary eventually seeing as classes like Warrior have way more weapon options then say Engineer which has 3 core weapons.

[EpicName.4523]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Can you give me a example of what combination of weapons with a specific elite/core spec would be broken?

 

I never said that a combination of a core/elite would be broken. I said that elite specs give you so much that you would still have them in your build even if you could use a weapon without them. I even gave an example. I'll be even more clear, though I find it hard.

 

You have guardian who is suddenly able to wield a longbow. Dragonhunters are obviously designed with that weapon in mind. In the DH skill tree you have a bunch of utility abilities like traps which slow or cripple your foe. You also have a bunch of traits which give you more damage on slowed and crippled targets as well as a bonus damage to enemies further away from you. All of this is a cohesive whole. It is only truly effective when used together. None of the core traits trees offers even remotely similar bonuses for a longbow user.

 

My point? My point is that for a longbow wielder, DH offers so much that even if you have the option NOT to use it in your build, you are simply gimping yourself. If you take a build and replace the DH elite spec with any core trait tree, you will be handicapped. This will make DH mandatory anyway which will completely defeat the purpose of "unlocking" the longbow for every guardian.

 

But maybe you still want to play like this? Where exactly? PvE? Nope. You only become a burden for anyone playing with you. PvP? Even worse. Maybe in open world where gimped builds do not matter? So, what good will a gimped longbow guardian be without the traits that actually support this kind of gameplay? The only reason I can see anyone would want this is if they don't own the expansion and desire some free content others paid for.

 

I just can't make this more clear, sorry. I tried.

[Etterwyn.5263]

I think that once you have fully unlocked the elite spec on a character, then you should be able to use that elite spec's weapon **_on that character_** any time. It would be account-wide and would require you to get to level 80 and unlock all the necessary hero points.

 

Example, once I completely finished Dragonhunter on my guardian, then I can use longbow any time, even as FB. But, if I roll another guardian, she can't equip longbow without doing the same.

 

You'd lose any supporting traits but at least have the weapon skills available if you want them.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > Also remember, the elite spec is designed around the weapon and the trait. Whether they fail or succeed, they are going for a theme. For example, Deadeye + rifle makes sense thematically and the traits are designed around using that weapon. Without that weapon for them to build around, the traits become horribly unfocussed and generic

> > >

> > That just means the class was poorly designed, and DE is a good example... I mean Malice is useless without the Rifle, the utilities aren't even that great, so basically without Rifle, it's just there.

> > And even with rifle it's not great.

> > About half the elite specs don't use their elite weapons at all even.

> > So it's not the best approach, and i do believe it would make the game much better if Weapons were separated from the traits, in fact i think most people do, given the frequency this subject pops up.

> >

> >

>

> Malice is pretty crappy. A class all about quickly finishing your foe is countered by a mechanic that makes them wait to ramp up their damage. It sort of works with p/p though but thats about all I used with the class, miss back when ricochet was a thing.

 

Malice does nothing for P/P itself, basically the only use i get from it is with Mercy, to reset my initiative.

Malice should have a slower build up and a passive damage modifier in it. DE is supposed to be the guy that stalks prey and then snipes it. But the whole mechanic is counter-intuitive. Malice only ramps up DJ, and it gets you in combat from just designating the target, which is anathema to the "stalk from stealth then kill" philosophy.

This of course is a problem of lack of tools, imagination and a almost amateurish approach to pvp balance, where chopping of the purpose of skills and classes is readily sacrificed for "balance" instead of giving other classes tools to deal with it.

(For example Deadeye's mark, instead of just outright getting you in combat and the enemy aware of you, would create a more subtle effect that would grow and the point where you'd be fully aware of the enemy would be at full malice - and this would also allow for better counter-play, because the time when you get the warning would be the optimal time for the enemy to attack you as well, as it is now, you kinda have to guess where the enemy is, how long Malice takes to charge, and then try to dodge).

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Dual.8953" said:

> I see more longevity out of the Especs if they keep things as they are. With things as they are they’re able to reuse weapons on new especs which will be necessary eventually seeing as classes like Warrior have way more weapon options then say Engineer which has 3 core weapons.

 

That could do something similar to what deadeye sort of did if they want to reuse weapons. Have a trait that will swap weapons skills when a espec is chosen.

 

 

> @"EpicName.4523" said:

>

> I never said that a combination of a core/elite would be broken. I said that elite specs give you so much that you would still have them in your build even if you could use a weapon without them. I even gave an example. I'll be even more clear, though I find it hard.

>

> You have guardian who is suddenly able to wield a longbow. Dragonhunters are obviously designed with that weapon in mind. In the DH skill tree you have a bunch of utility abilities like traps which slow or cripple your foe. You also have a bunch of traits which give you more damage on slowed and crippled targets as well as a bonus damage to enemies further away from you. All of this is a cohesive whole. It is only truly effective when used together. None of the core traits trees offers even remotely similar bonuses for a longbow user.

>

> My point? My point is that for a longbow wielder, DH offers so much that even if you have the option NOT to use it in your build, you are simply gimping yourself. If you take a build and replace the DH elite spec with any core trait tree, you will be handicapped. This will make DH mandatory anyway which will completely defeat the purpose of "unlocking" the longbow for every guardian.

>

> But maybe you still want to play like this? Where exactly? PvE? Nope. You only become a burden for anyone playing with you. PvP? Even worse. Maybe in open world where kitten builds do not matter? So, what good will a kitten longbow guardian be without the traits that actually support this kind of gameplay? The only reason I can see anyone would want this is if they don't own the expansion and desire some free content others paid for.

>

> I just can't make this more clear, sorry. I tried.

 

You have 1 trait that gives you bonus to cripple damage. 1 trait. If your talking about vulnerability stacks when crippling then that is something most classes can also do already if your really trying to min max you set up. (Stack vuln)

 

Id rather have more options to build then wanting to take a entire trait line for 10% extra damage to one weapon, I already dont do that on most of my other builds.

 

> @"Etterwyn.5263" said:

> I think that once you have fully unlocked the elite spec on a character, then you should be able to use that elite spec's weapon **_on that character_** any time. It would be account-wide and would require you to get to level 80 and unlock all the necessary hero points.

>

> Example, once I completely finished Dragonhunter on my guardian, then I can use longbow any time, even as FB. But, if I roll another guardian, she can't equip longbow without doing the same.

>

> You'd lose any supporting traits but at least have the weapon skills available if you want them.

 

I actually like this idea.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>

> Malice does nothing for P/P itself, basically the only use i get from it is with Mercy, to reset my initiative.

> Malice should have a slower build up and a passive damage modifier in it. DE is supposed to be the guy that stalks prey and then snipes it. But the whole mechanic is counter-intuitive. Malice only ramps up DJ, and it gets you in combat from just designating the target, which is anathema to the "stalk from stealth then kill" philosophy.

> This of course is a problem of lack of tools, imagination and a almost amateurish approach to pvp balance, where chopping of the purpose of skills and classes is readily sacrificed for "balance" instead of giving other classes tools to deal with it.

> (For example Deadeye's mark, instead of just outright getting you in combat and the enemy aware of you, would create a more subtle effect that would grow and the point where you'd be fully aware of the enemy would be at full malice - and this would also allow for better counter-play, because the time when you get the warning would be the optimal time for the enemy to attack you as well, as it is now, you kinda have to guess where the enemy is, how long Malice takes to charge, and then try to dodge).

 

Can get what your saying, I honestly never played my DE like that and now I understand why I lose a high percentage of my fights in WvW. I strike when malice isnt full trying to bank off the DJ full charge mid combat instead of a sneaky assassin approach. That design does sound like it could be cooler to the deadeye and more fair for the prey.

 

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"Etterwyn.5263" said:

> I think that once you have fully unlocked the elite spec on a character, then you should be able to use that elite spec's weapon **_on that character_** any time. It would be account-wide and would require you to get to level 80 and unlock all the necessary hero points.

 

Question: is that "**_on that character_**" or is that "account-wide"? It can't be both.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

> >

> > That would be a subjective view though

>

> Never seen a soulbeast use a dagger in WvW though. Or holosmith use a sword =/

 

Not every weapon is designed to be used everywhere. Holo sword and Slb dagger lack flavor in WvW but both are great choices in PVE. Does not make the weapons bad per se.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

 

A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

 

You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

>

> A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

>

> You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

 

Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

 

It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

> >

> > A huge red flag to whom?, the whole point in **specializing** is to focus on a particular field, not to be good at everything.

> >

> > You have a very specific agenda and balance shouldn't be subject to that.

>

> Huge red flag in general. Everything works in PvE no matter how good or bad it is. Just saying it works could mean its very weak in other parts of the game. Which is why its a red flag, basically a useless weapon just like how we have useless utility skills that only work well in PvE (Turrets for example).

>

> It gives low variety of use and continues to pigeon hole you more then we already are now. This isnt even due to the ESpec's mechanics, its just due to bad weapon design at this point. Soulbeast doesnt even seem to compliment dagger in anyway. Could actually see it being more useful on a build that doesnt waste its traitline pick on soulbeast.

 

dagger is the meta weapon for end-game raids and fractals for soulbeast, so yeah. Maybe it won't see use in whatever niche you favor over those but it still has its meta niche.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

 

If the weapon for the elite spec blows, what's the problem with locking it behind the spec? I don't get your argument that it's better for the 'life' of the game if weapons unlocked in an espec are open to all specs. Somehow the game life has a problem because of this design choice? I don't see it.

 

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> If it only works in PvE then that should be a huge red flag =/

 

The weapons work everywhere. Players decide if they want to use them, for whatever reason they choose. Obviously some weapons are better suited for specific game modes because of the specifics of the weapon. That's certainly not an issue or a problem.

[HardRider.2980]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

> >

> > That would be a subjective view though

>

> Never seen a soulbeast use a dagger in WvW though. Or holosmith use a sword =/

 

Try going into pvp, you'll see sword Holo's there.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

>

> dagger is the meta weapon for end-game raids and fractals for soulbeast, so yeah. Maybe it won't see use in whatever niche you favor over those but it still has its meta niche.

 

How many builds is the dagger viable in though? Would there be better possibilities with other traitlines attached to the dagger being used?

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> If the weapon for the elite spec blows, what's the problem with locking it behind the spec? I don't get your argument that it's better for the 'life' of the game if weapons unlocked in an espec are open to all specs. Somehow the game life has a problem because of this design choice? I don't see it.

>

 

It blows because locking it behind the spec kind of nullifies its existence in the first place. If the weapon you designed to fit the class isnt the best fit for it then how is that a good thing? If it can be used better suited for other trainlines then why not just open up the possibilities?

 

>

> The weapons work everywhere. Players decide if they want to use them, for whatever reason they choose. Obviously some weapons are better suited for specific game modes because of the specifics of the weapon. That's certainly not an issue or a problem.

 

It is a issue when it comes to build variety. Which is something Id rather promote. Being a Soulbeast in WvW and doing teamfights is a pretty crappy experience due to the projectile hate in the game and with the way scourges are dominating the field with massive amounts of fields erupting all over the place your basically in a terrible position since you cant just hop into melee combat to do much of anything. But if you could equip a staff then atleast youl be able to give a bit more support in the teamfight instead of blindly firing into the blob fight and hoping your not hitting reflects.

 

Instead your option is to just be a druid even if you dont truly enjoy the mechanics of the e-spec.

 

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

>

> Try going into pvp, you'll see sword Holo's there.

 

I used to all the time, but SPvP is sort of dead now. (I dont rank, just hotjoins)

 

[blueberry.2504]

I personally like the different weapons behind elite specs. It gives more flavour, more character. Not everything has to be a generic boring pile.

[Draco.9480]

feels like you want to use cheat weapons that aren't meant for your spec and make things unbalanced. normal necro with gs or torch feels wrong.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> It blows because locking it behind the spec kind of nullifies its existence in the first place. If the weapon you designed to fit the class isnt the best fit for it then how is that a good thing? If it can be used better suited for other trainlines then why not just open up the possibilities?

 

No it doesn't nullify it's existence. That's a ridiculous statement. I can't think of a single espec where the weapon locked behind it isn't designed to 'fit' for the espec itself. A situation where the espec weapon fits BETTER outside the espec traits doesn't exist.

>

> >

> > The weapons work everywhere. Players decide if they want to use them, for whatever reason they choose. Obviously some weapons are better suited for specific game modes because of the specifics of the weapon. That's certainly not an issue or a problem.

>

> It is a issue when it comes to build variety.

 

My first reaction to that ... variety is good, but the concept of the espec is more important. It's not like we start with NO variety, so having the weapon outside the espec is necessary to have any. We do have variety, so it's OK for some weapons to lock behind specs.

[Turin.6921]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

> >

> > That would be a subjective view though

>

> Never seen a soulbeast use a dagger in WvW though. Or holosmith use a sword =/

 

WvW is not the only mode though. PvE builds have both weapons. You cannot judge a weapon based on only a single game mode.