Could Joko be a Mursaat?

[Ayakaru.6583]

A theory with little basis.

But could Joko be a Mursaat?

A pro reason is mostly his physiology, when you look at his body. He has the same silhouette as a Mursaat.

The extend, and origin, of his powers are quite mysterious, and old. So he could be as old pre-descension Mursaat. So he isn't Mist warped like the rest of his kind.

I don't have proof he is a Mursaat, but i believe its quite possible.

 

I just kinda want to hear your thoughts.

Maybe someone has some proof in favour, or against.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Humans share the same silhouette as mursaat. So do norn. And jotun and giants, though they're a bit too large. So that's not really a point in his favor. He completely lacks wings, never floats either. And to be an "old pre-descension Mursaat so he isn't Mist warped like the rest of his kind" (not sure what you mean by "Mist warped") would make him older than humanity itself, anywhere between 3,000 and 10,000 years old, yet he only first appeared in the 8th century AE.

 

I doubt that he is a mursaat, let alone a 10,000 year old undead mursaat.

 

He also goes a long length to make folks think he's an undead human, which is unheard of for mursaat. I'm also pretty sure he has five toes, like humans, while mursaat have three (hard to tell the number of toes on the wiki image of him but actually looks like 4, while his GW1 model definitely had 5 toes).

[Rognik.2579]

We know Joko is a lich, and while we can't say he's not a mursaat lich, I'm pretty sure that's not the case. He's always been in Elona while the mursaat apparently originated from north of Kryta. For a lone mursaat to go that far away all of a sudden for no apparent reason is pretty illogical, and he looks more human than he does mursaat (compare his sprite to that of Lazarus's, even Balthazar's illusion of him).

 

The Eye of Janthir disappeared after Lazarus was killed, the last mursaat finally dying. While I know that doesn't prove anything, it does make a strong case that Joko isn't mursaat.

[Arden.7480]

If Livia said "The mursaat are now extinct." I believe they are.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Humans share the same silhouette as mursaat. So do norn. And jotun and giants, though they're a bit too large. So that's not really a point in his favor. He completely lacks wings, never floats either. And to be an "old pre-descension Mursaat so he isn't Mist warped like the rest of his kind" (not sure what you mean by "Mist warped") would make him older than humanity itself, anywhere between 3,000 and 10,000 years old, yet he only first appeared in the 8th century AE.

>

> I doubt that he is a mursaat, let alone a 10,000 year old undead mursaat.

>

> He also goes a long length to make folks think he's an undead human, which is unheard of for mursaat. I'm also pretty sure he has five toes, like humans, while mursaat have three (hard to tell the number of toes on the wiki image of him but actually looks like 4, while his GW1 model definitely had 5 toes).

 

Thats the first time he appears in history, yes, *human history*. Human history has proven quite fallible. By sillhouete i mean more than having 4 limbs on a torso.

You have to look at the whole picture, hands, feet, etc.

The reason I’m bringing this is up is because Joko looks nothing like a human, unless he replaced his limbs with those of other species.

His model seems to have a varying amount of fingers and toes in artworks.

The gw1 model looks a bit dated, low poly, so it kinda looks 5 toed, but then again its quite difficult to tell.

In the GW2 model he clearly has the mursaat shaped feet, which was the first time I started considering him a Mursaat.

 

I agree its however unlikely. But someone else mentioned the Eye of Janthir phased out, so I guess thats proof enough he ain’t a mursaat.

But I still doubt he’s a human, lest a normal one

[Sarrs.4831]

No; the Eye of Janthir destroyed itself, as there are no more Mursaat. The Eye still stuck around even though Lazarus was split into pieces, and I don't think Joko would have more mucking about than that.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> In the GW2 model he clearly has the mursaat shaped feet, which was the first time I started considering him a Mursaat.

 

It's worth noting that [most of the Awakened](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/b2/Awakened_Occultist.jpg) have Joko feet, and they're more or less explicitly humans of average Elonan stock.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> Thats the first time he appears in history, yes, *human history*. Human history has proven quite fallible. By sillhouete i mean more than having 4 limbs on a torso.

> You have to look at the whole picture, hands, feet, etc.

> The reason I’m bringing this is up is because Joko looks nothing like a human, unless he replaced his limbs with those of other species.

> His model seems to have a varying amount of fingers and toes in artworks.

> The gw1 model looks a bit dated, low poly, so it kinda looks 5 toed, but then again its quite difficult to tell.

> In the GW2 model he clearly has the mursaat shaped feet, which was the first time I started considering him a Mursaat.

>

> I agree its however unlikely. But someone else mentioned the Eye of Janthir phased out, so I guess thats proof enough he ain’t a mursaat.

> But I still doubt he’s a human, lest a normal one

 

The only difference between mursaat and a tones male human is the number of toes and the wings on the back.

 

Joko has 5 toes (albeit abnormal shape in GW2) and has no wings. He's not exactly muscular like mursaat either. Besides, about Joko's feet, even ignoring Aaron's post, Joko is well known for flesh sculpting as that's how he made the canids and abominations - those are made from a human corpse, yet is barely anything like a human.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > Thats the first time he appears in history, yes, *human history*. Human history has proven quite fallible. By sillhouete i mean more than having 4 limbs on a torso.

> > You have to look at the whole picture, hands, feet, etc.

> > The reason I’m bringing this is up is because Joko looks nothing like a human, unless he replaced his limbs with those of other species.

> > His model seems to have a varying amount of fingers and toes in artworks.

> > The gw1 model looks a bit dated, low poly, so it kinda looks 5 toed, but then again its quite difficult to tell.

> > In the GW2 model he clearly has the mursaat shaped feet, which was the first time I started considering him a Mursaat.

> >

> > I agree its however unlikely. But someone else mentioned the Eye of Janthir phased out, so I guess thats proof enough he ain’t a mursaat.

> > But I still doubt he’s a human, lest a normal one

>

> The only difference between mursaat and a tones male human is the number of toes and the wings on the back.

>

> Joko has 5 toes (albeit abnormal shape in GW2) and has no wings. He's not exactly muscular like mursaat either. Besides, about Joko's feet, even ignoring Aaron's post, Joko is well known for flesh sculpting as that's how he made the canids and abominations - those are made from a human corpse, yet is barely anything like a human.

 

I agree on most there,

Just that the number of toes seems to differ from picture to picture, and his 3d model in gw2 seems to have the Mursaat toes. But experience shows not everything even shown in game is canon. Plus flesh sculpting on his own body seems possible.

 

I have to disagree on the wings though.

The wings seem magical in nature, rather than organic. So I'm stating it as a fact, but it seems plausible that Mursaat might not be born with them.

 

As for muscularity, good point, but i think that can be explained by undeathyness and general flesh sculpting as well ?

[ugrakarma.9416]

even if there were any evidence, would be an immense contradiction bring any Mursaat to scene after the _disintegration of the **Jantir Eye**_.

 

[DarcShriek.5829]

Wasn't Joko a human king at one time?

[Randulf.7614]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> even if there were any evidence, would be an immense contradiction bring any Mursaat to scene after the _disintegration of the **Jantir Eye**_.

>

 

For me, this ends any further speculation entirely.

 

If and it is a massive if, the Mursaat are somehow brought back (presumably from the mists?), then it will not be so soon after they closed that story off. I expect years to pass before the Mursaat were returned in some way.

 

As for Joko, I'm not convinced that they will fill much of his background in beyond being deliberately vague and only using hints. I'm not even convinced the writing team have a fleshed out backstory for him. That's not meant to sound like a dig, more that he has always worked well enough as villain without one.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> Wasn't Joko a human king at one time?

 

That's what he claims, that he was one of the Primeval Kings, but he is a renown liar so that holds little weight.

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > Wasn't Joko a human king at one time?

>

> That's what he claims, that he was one of the Primeval Kings, but he is a renown liar so that holds little weight.

 

It seems that this could be verified easily enough by asking the spirits in the tomb of primeval kings.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > > Wasn't Joko a human king at one time?

> >

> > That's what he claims, that he was one of the Primeval Kings, but he is a renown liar so that holds little weight.

>

> It seems that this could be verified easily enough by asking the spirits in the tomb of primeval kings.

 

They say he isn't during Hallowed Grounds (this is in fact the first chronological time players are told Joko claims to be a Primeval King), but they show a very obvious hatred of him as well, and people are known for lying too. It's not reliable enough.

 

That said, Joko is most likely one of the Pretender Kings, many of which proclaimed traced lineages to either the Primeval Dynasty or the Great Dynasty that preceded the Shattered Dynasty and its Pretender Wars.

[DarcShriek.5829]

So we simply don't trust anyone that could tell us. Maybe someone in the mists. Get a revenant to talk to Glint. Also in Hallowed Grounds it is only mentioned that he is not part of the dynasty. Which would only hint that he usurped the throne from the ruling family. It doesn't mean he wasn't king and it would mean he wasn't human.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings.

[Bast.7253]

I like the idea that he could be something other than just an undead human that happened to be a powerful and egotistical lich. Would love to find out the complete backstory of him this living world season, especially if there's something more to it than him just being an undead human. Never considered the possibility of him being a mursaat and don't believe it now, but it's a unique suggestion.

 

I find it interesting that djinn look to be undead mummies instead of purely elemental beings, but that's probably just how they envisioned them. Are they just so hold that they want them portrayed as mummies? I wonder what they looked like before that? Similar but with more flesh I suppose?

 

But anyway, kudos to the suggestion even if unlikely. Still would love to find out some undiscovered secret about Palawa's origin, gain of power, or something more mystical about the scarab plague and it's sudden appearance. A lot of the parts of this story have so much mystery around them that would be great to find out in an upcoming episode, though it seems they may bypass that and stick to simply resolving the problems at hand whilst keeping origin stories vague and mysterious.

 

The story never really explained the relationship between the eye of janthir and the mursaat either which was a little disappointing. I think some people have speculated some correlations between the eye and Abaddon which I always found interesting.

 

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Joko was a ruler of elona before his undead state so no not really

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> Joko was a ruler of elona before his undead state so no not really

 

According to him, the usurper of glory. It's denied by the other rulers in the Primeval tombs

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > Joko was a ruler of elona before his undead state so no not really

>

> According to him, the usurper of glory. It's denied by the other rulers in the Primeval tombs

 

And he also said he killed zhaitan and modremoth single handled

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was an illegitimate child of one of the Dynasty or a sibling of one of the dynasty, who feels that he has the right to call himself a primeval king. I remember looking at the broken statue in Faranur.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyed_Statue

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plaque_(The_First_City)

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Dahlah

 

Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something.

 

When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something.

>

> When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion.

 

Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact.

 

The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> Just that the number of toes seems to differ from picture to picture, and his 3d model in gw2 seems to have the Mursaat toes. But experience shows not everything even shown in game is canon. Plus flesh sculpting on his own body seems possible.

 

Let's remind you that the Enchanted of the Crystal Desert have Mursaat toes... He could be from the same race that the Enchanted Armors came from.