Why is everyone crying about condi builds but not spellbreaker?

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

I cant avoid FC with my clone spam... so it must be broken

[voltaicbore.8012]

> @"Chorazin.4107" said:

 

> It's stale from a build diversity point of view, does anyone ever use Enchantment collapse or magebane tether?

 

I actually use magebane tether (I generally keep my SB out of ranked though, not that great with it), and I hilariously get top heals all the time. My build is a largely useless sustain cheese build, with paladin amulet, dolyak runes, magebane, might makes right, and occasional bursts of dagger autos when the target is ripe for it. A constant stream of heals, with blocks and evades regularly available. I generally die very little on this build, but it severely lacks the killing power that can actually help take a node. I can only prevent decaps, essentially.

 

 

 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"brannigan.9831" As I said before, Warrior sustain is directly tied to them actually hitting with their burst skills. Don't get hit by them, they get nothing. I actually rather frequently fight other Warriors and Spellbreakers and beat them without them ever having touched my health or landing a burst skill on me. Other classes have done the same to me. No class has been exempt from that, and this is because these are good players not, for lack of a better term, poor players.

> >

> > What people perceive as the issue with Spellbreakers, and Warriors in general, is typically an issue in their own inability to fight the class. Granted this doesn't reign true always with the state of balance and how Mirage can just peace out of a fight entirely or dodge roll stunbreak however many few CCs one might have available, and yes admittedly Spellbreaker is much easier to do well with at the lower end of the PvP spectrum due to most players constantly hitting Full Counter rather than avoiding the proc. Sometimes there is so much attack avoidance going on in fights, when we're talking about people who play at a Plat 2 or above level, that they can last for a rather long time if not just feel like a stalemate.

> >

> > And to avoid someone likely pulling some sort of "he just a Warrior main so of course he doesn't want nerfs, well yeah of course I don't but as a balancing factor here...

> >

> > Mesmer. At its core I don't honestly have an issue with Mesmer, even Mirage, despite my issues I've taken with it on these forums in other threads. There are very specific things and specific gameplay elements to this game **as a whole** that make Mesmer an issue and they don't necessarily stem from the class itself. Granted Mesmer has been pretty severely overtuned with the update made to their Clones and such, Mirage as well, but at its core it isn't the issue. The core of the issue is how strong conditions were made and, in the realm of sPvP, that strength of those conditions becomes a **problem** just with how that game mode works.

> >

> > In an ideal scenario when fighting a mesmer, you have the ability to either kill their clones or are able to disengage from them to avoid their burst. This requires both you and the Mesmer to consider your positioning as well as their own positioning, which can make fights span across a larger field and utilize terrain or structures to break line of sight or force Clones to chase you, thus baiting out the GW2 AI and ultimately keep them away from you. This is not how it works in sPvP. In sPvP you are forced onto a single objective point, if you are not contesting or defending this point then you are losing. This means you need to be standing on top of the point which completely negates the consideration of positioning and the Mesmer has free reign over what they want to do with their Clones, which is typically shattering them and loading you up with conditions. Are you able to disengage? Yes, but that removes you from the point and the possibility of you either pressuring an enemy player or supporting a teammate. This gives AoE like that a distinct advantage and makes sPvP a less than enjoyable experience especially with how **tiny**, how **microscopic** these capture points are when compared against the amount of area a Mesmer shattering a number of their clones can cover. The same reigns true with Scourge.

> >

> > So really these issues can't really be boiled down to an issue with the classes themselves and more an issue with how sPvP has worked and how it **no longer** works in the current state of mechanics that Anet has added to classes since the long ago rework they did to Conditions. It was less a problem then, it has become more of a problem now because honestly...what has changed about sPvP and how the gamemode works? Not much, yet they have added a large number of new mechanics to classes that make the gamemode itself a frustrating experience and it is **easily** abused.

>

> Almost everything mentioned here is wrong. Who gives a flying kitten about in F tier warrior who has no kitten idea what they are doing. If you cannot hit with at least half of your Burst skills and FC (more like 75%) you should not step foot in sPvP.

>

> There is no reason to labor over FC and warrior sustain. There is a good reason that it was nerfed before, and probably will again next patch. When SB perform on the same level of other bruiser builds, like DH or scrapper let me know. Enjoy it now, cuz the end is near. The hammer will definitely hit SB and mirage next patch.

 

Have you even seen two Plat 2+ tier Warriors fight in a 1v1? Or just Plat 2+ anyone fight Warriors 1v1? Or really just any class vs any class 1v1? I've won 1v1 fights against people that dodge most of my burst skills because I was able to land a **few** key hits to get my own damage out onto them. Very experienced players are going to know what animations to look for and dodge them accordingly, likely saving their dodge rolls for it and using other tools to avoid the other damaging skills you have. Or using said other tools to avoid the adrenal health procs from burst skills. They don't proc on invulns, evades or blocks.

 

If you're still having some severe difficulty when fighting SBs then maybe try applying some of the tips people have detailed in this thread. Most people tend to just go full aggro on other players in PvP when sometimes that just isn't the best approach.

[otto.5684]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"brannigan.9831" As I said before, Warrior sustain is directly tied to them actually hitting with their burst skills. Don't get hit by them, they get nothing. I actually rather frequently fight other Warriors and Spellbreakers and beat them without them ever having touched my health or landing a burst skill on me. Other classes have done the same to me. No class has been exempt from that, and this is because these are good players not, for lack of a better term, poor players.

> > >

> > > What people perceive as the issue with Spellbreakers, and Warriors in general, is typically an issue in their own inability to fight the class. Granted this doesn't reign true always with the state of balance and how Mirage can just peace out of a fight entirely or dodge roll stunbreak however many few CCs one might have available, and yes admittedly Spellbreaker is much easier to do well with at the lower end of the PvP spectrum due to most players constantly hitting Full Counter rather than avoiding the proc. Sometimes there is so much attack avoidance going on in fights, when we're talking about people who play at a Plat 2 or above level, that they can last for a rather long time if not just feel like a stalemate.

> > >

> > > And to avoid someone likely pulling some sort of "he just a Warrior main so of course he doesn't want nerfs, well yeah of course I don't but as a balancing factor here...

> > >

> > > Mesmer. At its core I don't honestly have an issue with Mesmer, even Mirage, despite my issues I've taken with it on these forums in other threads. There are very specific things and specific gameplay elements to this game **as a whole** that make Mesmer an issue and they don't necessarily stem from the class itself. Granted Mesmer has been pretty severely overtuned with the update made to their Clones and such, Mirage as well, but at its core it isn't the issue. The core of the issue is how strong conditions were made and, in the realm of sPvP, that strength of those conditions becomes a **problem** just with how that game mode works.

> > >

> > > In an ideal scenario when fighting a mesmer, you have the ability to either kill their clones or are able to disengage from them to avoid their burst. This requires both you and the Mesmer to consider your positioning as well as their own positioning, which can make fights span across a larger field and utilize terrain or structures to break line of sight or force Clones to chase you, thus baiting out the GW2 AI and ultimately keep them away from you. This is not how it works in sPvP. In sPvP you are forced onto a single objective point, if you are not contesting or defending this point then you are losing. This means you need to be standing on top of the point which completely negates the consideration of positioning and the Mesmer has free reign over what they want to do with their Clones, which is typically shattering them and loading you up with conditions. Are you able to disengage? Yes, but that removes you from the point and the possibility of you either pressuring an enemy player or supporting a teammate. This gives AoE like that a distinct advantage and makes sPvP a less than enjoyable experience especially with how **tiny**, how **microscopic** these capture points are when compared against the amount of area a Mesmer shattering a number of their clones can cover. The same reigns true with Scourge.

> > >

> > > So really these issues can't really be boiled down to an issue with the classes themselves and more an issue with how sPvP has worked and how it **no longer** works in the current state of mechanics that Anet has added to classes since the long ago rework they did to Conditions. It was less a problem then, it has become more of a problem now because honestly...what has changed about sPvP and how the gamemode works? Not much, yet they have added a large number of new mechanics to classes that make the gamemode itself a frustrating experience and it is **easily** abused.

> >

> > Almost everything mentioned here is wrong. Who gives a flying kitten about in F tier warrior who has no kitten idea what they are doing. If you cannot hit with at least half of your Burst skills and FC (more like 75%) you should not step foot in sPvP.

> >

> > There is no reason to labor over FC and warrior sustain. There is a good reason that it was nerfed before, and probably will again next patch. When SB perform on the same level of other bruiser builds, like DH or scrapper let me know. Enjoy it now, cuz the end is near. The hammer will definitely hit SB and mirage next patch.

>

> Have you even seen two Plat 2+ tier Warriors fight in a 1v1? Or just Plat 2+ anyone fight Warriors 1v1? Or really just any class vs any class 1v1? I've won 1v1 fights against people that dodge most of my burst skills because I was able to land a **few** key hits to get my own damage out onto them. Very experienced players are going to know what animations to look for and dodge them accordingly, likely saving their dodge rolls for it and using other tools to avoid the other damaging skills you have. Or using said other tools to avoid the adrenal health procs from burst skills. They don't proc on invulns, evades or blocks.

>

> If you're still having some severe difficulty when fighting SBs then maybe try applying some of the tips people have detailed in this thread. Most people tend to just go full aggro on other players in PvP when sometimes that just isn't the best approach.

 

Dude, this is not hello kitty I am playing sPvP for the first time. I win somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of my encounters with SB on core guardian. The fact that I can win by sheer skill does not mean that SB is balanced. It is near impossible for core guardian, or any build except mirage and scourge (and ranger if we have unlimited time) to win solo against SB with equal skill level. Not only that, SB can sit on point, while fighting 1v2 or 1v3 much longer than any other class, by a good margin, due to invulnerabilities, evades and blocks that can be chained back to back to back. If this is not imbalanced I do not know what is.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > @"brannigan.9831" As I said before, Warrior sustain is directly tied to them actually hitting with their burst skills. Don't get hit by them, they get nothing. I actually rather frequently fight other Warriors and Spellbreakers and beat them without them ever having touched my health or landing a burst skill on me. Other classes have done the same to me. No class has been exempt from that, and this is because these are good players not, for lack of a better term, poor players.

> > > >

> > > > What people perceive as the issue with Spellbreakers, and Warriors in general, is typically an issue in their own inability to fight the class. Granted this doesn't reign true always with the state of balance and how Mirage can just peace out of a fight entirely or dodge roll stunbreak however many few CCs one might have available, and yes admittedly Spellbreaker is much easier to do well with at the lower end of the PvP spectrum due to most players constantly hitting Full Counter rather than avoiding the proc. Sometimes there is so much attack avoidance going on in fights, when we're talking about people who play at a Plat 2 or above level, that they can last for a rather long time if not just feel like a stalemate.

> > > >

> > > > And to avoid someone likely pulling some sort of "he just a Warrior main so of course he doesn't want nerfs, well yeah of course I don't but as a balancing factor here...

> > > >

> > > > Mesmer. At its core I don't honestly have an issue with Mesmer, even Mirage, despite my issues I've taken with it on these forums in other threads. There are very specific things and specific gameplay elements to this game **as a whole** that make Mesmer an issue and they don't necessarily stem from the class itself. Granted Mesmer has been pretty severely overtuned with the update made to their Clones and such, Mirage as well, but at its core it isn't the issue. The core of the issue is how strong conditions were made and, in the realm of sPvP, that strength of those conditions becomes a **problem** just with how that game mode works.

> > > >

> > > > In an ideal scenario when fighting a mesmer, you have the ability to either kill their clones or are able to disengage from them to avoid their burst. This requires both you and the Mesmer to consider your positioning as well as their own positioning, which can make fights span across a larger field and utilize terrain or structures to break line of sight or force Clones to chase you, thus baiting out the GW2 AI and ultimately keep them away from you. This is not how it works in sPvP. In sPvP you are forced onto a single objective point, if you are not contesting or defending this point then you are losing. This means you need to be standing on top of the point which completely negates the consideration of positioning and the Mesmer has free reign over what they want to do with their Clones, which is typically shattering them and loading you up with conditions. Are you able to disengage? Yes, but that removes you from the point and the possibility of you either pressuring an enemy player or supporting a teammate. This gives AoE like that a distinct advantage and makes sPvP a less than enjoyable experience especially with how **tiny**, how **microscopic** these capture points are when compared against the amount of area a Mesmer shattering a number of their clones can cover. The same reigns true with Scourge.

> > > >

> > > > So really these issues can't really be boiled down to an issue with the classes themselves and more an issue with how sPvP has worked and how it **no longer** works in the current state of mechanics that Anet has added to classes since the long ago rework they did to Conditions. It was less a problem then, it has become more of a problem now because honestly...what has changed about sPvP and how the gamemode works? Not much, yet they have added a large number of new mechanics to classes that make the gamemode itself a frustrating experience and it is **easily** abused.

> > >

> > > Almost everything mentioned here is wrong. Who gives a flying kitten about in F tier warrior who has no kitten idea what they are doing. If you cannot hit with at least half of your Burst skills and FC (more like 75%) you should not step foot in sPvP.

> > >

> > > There is no reason to labor over FC and warrior sustain. There is a good reason that it was nerfed before, and probably will again next patch. When SB perform on the same level of other bruiser builds, like DH or scrapper let me know. Enjoy it now, cuz the end is near. The hammer will definitely hit SB and mirage next patch.

> >

> > Have you even seen two Plat 2+ tier Warriors fight in a 1v1? Or just Plat 2+ anyone fight Warriors 1v1? Or really just any class vs any class 1v1? I've won 1v1 fights against people that dodge most of my burst skills because I was able to land a **few** key hits to get my own damage out onto them. Very experienced players are going to know what animations to look for and dodge them accordingly, likely saving their dodge rolls for it and using other tools to avoid the other damaging skills you have. Or using said other tools to avoid the adrenal health procs from burst skills. They don't proc on invulns, evades or blocks.

> >

> > If you're still having some severe difficulty when fighting SBs then maybe try applying some of the tips people have detailed in this thread. Most people tend to just go full aggro on other players in PvP when sometimes that just isn't the best approach.

>

> Dude, this is not hello kitty I am playing sPvP for the first time. I win somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of my encounters with SB on core guardian. The fact that I can win by sheer skill does not mean that SB is balanced. It is near impossible for core guardian, or any build except mirage and scourge (and ranger if we have unlimited time) to win solo against SB with equal skill level. Not only that, SB can sit on point, while fighting 1v2 or 1v3 much longer than any other class, by a good margin, due to invulnerabilities, evades and blocks that can be chained back to back to back. If this is not imbalanced I do not know what is.

 

Thats true, on a capture point they do have an advantage in outnumbered scenarios because of how Full Counter works and I've said this before. That brings it back to the core issue I mentioned with sPvP, this is where you're forced to fight on a rather small circle to contest it which makes kiting a SB with anything a problem because you would need to leave the capture point to do so. This makes baiting out their dagger leaps and other utilities more problematic. Inherently there isn't an issue with the class, the issue lies with how Spellbreaker, Scourge, Mirage, and other Elite specs have been modeled and how a number of them are pretty easily capable of essentially "cheesing" sPvP as a game mode.

 

I had a conversation with a Core guardian about this after a ranked match where I faced him. He was quite a problem to deal with for me and my whole team, primarily because he would just burn the entirety of my team to death with all the AoE he would throw down onto the capture point. He said he set his build up in a way to be very tnaky and just put out lots of burning stacks that would cover the capture points. Now with you playing Core guardian I'm sure you're aware that they don't have a **ton** of AoE skills that inflict Burning but he was able to lock down a capture point to such an extent that trying to contest it was an issue, even with your team. This was exacerbated by the presence of a Scourge as well. When he and I talked he said himself that its very easy to just cheese your way through matches in Conquest and that its pretty much entirely to do with the size of the capture points compared to the size of any AoE skill available. This used to not be a problem, AoE was pretty okay but as time has gone on, with changes to classes and skills, with the addition of Elite Specs it has really only made it more and more of a problem. At their core the elite specs really aren't **entirely** the issue with the exception of the reworks that have been done to Deadeye and Mesmer clones. Granted SB started out ridiculous, I will agree to that, and even now I think Full Counter kind of functions as a crutch but whenever I run into SBs in WvW I don't get **too** concerned because I know I'm in for a predictable 1v1; them having the 10 sec Full Counter cooldown and the lowered damage on dagger has toned SB down a bit in 1v1s, in outnumbered fights though yes the chances of that Full Counter going off are much higher. But I run Core, feels better and I like it better.

[Swagg.9236]

GW2 is so busted that people have other concerns aside from a class having an instant-activation, perfect invuln, evade-period, unblockable, 5-target, huge PBAoE attack that also inflicts CC and potentially conditions all on a 12 (or lower) second cooldown. Moreover, the playerbase (and devs for that matter) seem to have no problem that this garbage ability is not only just an overpowered copy of other identical, boring abilities which have existed long before it, or that its implementation was entirely a FLAVOR-BASED DESIGN referenced from a barely-mediocre anime/manga series instead of something implemented because it was a new mechanic or brought something meaningful to the game.

 

GW2 is such a tremendous joke, my guys.

[Apolo.5942]

Personally i think things like SB are what keeps this pvp game alive.

 

The game needs to slowwwwwwwww wwwwwwaaaaaayyyy dooooooowwwwwwwnnnnnnn, become more about resource management and less about invulnerabilities and explosive damage.

 

The likes of SB are the only thing that keeps glass cannon builds in line.

 

Damage is so retardedly over the top that "Damage over time Mechanics" out burst, "burst Mechanics"....

[Gwaihir.1745]

Its def op but I mean while mirage is a thing everything else looks balanced even if it isnt. Also to have a sb nerf go live with mirage in its current state would destroy spvp.

[Poseidon.3852]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> Personally i think things like SB are what keeps this pvp game alive.

>

> The game needs to slowwwwwwwww wwwwwwaaaaaayyyy dooooooowwwwwwwnnnnnnn, become more about resource management and less about invulnerabilities and explosive damage.

>

> The likes of SB are the only thing that keeps glass cannon builds in line.

>

> Damage is so kitten over the top that "Damage over time Mechanics" out burst, "burst Mechanics"....

 

This... but saying this out loud will get you accused that you are too attached to the notions of other MMOs PvP and that you shouldn't play GW2 and see for what it itself tries to be.

 

But really, DoTs should NOT BE ABLE TO BURST ANYTHING DOWN. Anything. On the other hand, everything needs to get "beefier" too. All damage should be nerfed. ALL. While simultaneously buffing HP across the board, for PvP.

[Widmo.3186]

I just love how this thread is full of people playing SB and defending it in every way and not playing SB and accusing it in every way (not everyone of course).Imo SB isn't undefeatable in 1v1,but its handicap is far too high comparing to other classes (maybe except Mirage).Minor nerf would be good.

 

 

_grabs popcorn,takes a backseat and returns to spamming 3rd d/p skill against warriors_

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Everything on SB is fine except full counter. CD is too short. If CD stays the same, the unblockable should be gone and damage lowered.

[KrHome.1920]

Fighting Spellbreaker is weird. It becomes stronger the more pressure it gets.

 

Fought one yesterday in a camp. The stupid camp guards procc'd every single Full Counter which resulted in the Spellbreaker becoming unkillable. I stated this already a few days after PoF release, when I almost killed a Spellbreaker, as a team mate showed up to proc Full Counter and the Spellbreaker then killed both of us.

 

It's a dumb mechanic.

 

But Condi Mirage is on another level of ridiculousity. The bad ones I can easily outsustain with one utility skill ("Suffer!"). The good ones do just faceroll me. This small gap between the state of under- and overpowered is a result of bad spec design. Mirage and Spellbreaker do share the issue of bad spec design.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"UfoCoffee.2084" said:

> This class is a raid boss, unkillable 1v1, Crazy survivability, decent mobility and good damage. If anything needs a nerf it's spellbreaker.

>

> Btw if you're dying to condi thief, scourge, or condi mesmer just play spellbreaker and you'll never have to worry again.

 

mate condi is the counter to warrior if a good condi player fights a warrior you should have a big chance if they are no retards. Warrior is a class that is ez to learn hard to master. Same with guardian. It doesn't make them OP. Yes a great warrior is almost unkillable, but PvP is not only enemy skill it is also knowing when not ot fight someone. At the moment Mesmer and Condi thief are much stronger then warrior is. If you lose on a condi class against a warrior it is your fault. Don't complain about something that is your fault if you are a condi class. The reason why everyone complain about mesmer and Condi thief is because they are broken and don't have a weaknes. Thief condi burst is random you need to dodge every attack not to die and mesmer: The problem is the devs never asked themselves what they want Mesmers weakness as a class to be. Currently Mirage has the burst/mobility of Thief, the utility of Engineer, the invuln uptime of Warrior, and all with none of the drawbacks that any of those three classes face. If Anet wants this class to be balanced, then something has to go. You can't give a class legit everything and expect it to not break the game.

I will give you that the spellbreaker is strong in hands of a *GOOD* player. But condi thief and mesmer are broken in the hands of a *GOOD* player

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> It is overtuned in general but not so much in the context of the current meta(as opposed to Mirage). It should be nerfed along with most of the PoF specs. The powercreep nerf months ago was a good step in the right direction but not enough. They need to keep going until they reach parity with at least some of the HoT specs.

 

I would say go back to the pre hot state's were skills matter and there was no powercreep.