We don't need a new map for every episode.

[ImTasty.2163]

> @"Goettel.4389" said:

> Agreed, I'd love for those pretty 'vanilla' PoF maps to gain meaningful LW story and metas. Having war in a new zone is cool and all, but having war in a familiar zone would feel more like...well, a living world.

 

I doubt this will happen. They changed maps back in LW1 but it seems the major complaint about that (other than the content pacing) was players coming back and the old maps are different and they aren't sure why. That's why now maps are time locked and by that I mean the PoF maps are locked in a time before balth gets killed, the HoT maps are locked in a point before Mordy was killed, etc.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > I am enjoying new maps, especially when they are well done like in LWS4 so far. The replayability isn't bound to the map per se but to the events placed in it.

>

> I can't believe anyone can say this about Kourna with straight face.

 

I like the map itself, but its content is underwhelming. Aesthetically the map is one of my favorites, but scenery alone only goes so far.

[notebene.3190]

I like having new maps each time. I think this is a nice one. I like some of the new mechanics, like using the mount to stomp on bugs. I think there were some great mechanics in that really long story step (though, they could have broken that into two parts), even though I was a little frustrated with it at the time (but only because I wanted an oompa loompa and I wanted it now). I like the new, big DE event chain, and I think it should scale well for smaller amounts of people when the people that were going to move on regardless move on. The hearts are all fairly quick to clear, and I like the enormous amount of longer term collections.

 

While it's to be expected the locusts will make their push and then pontificate in map chat and the forums why what they just rushed back to do in 3-5 days is terrible and then leave, I'm a little disappointed there aren't more people far more articulate than me in the "unfinished / no meta / no gold / no special currency / no good ascended / wtb good sword (?) / muh winterburries! / my pines! / lone pine mall" threads with any sort of voice of reason. That makes me a little sad.

 

Or, maybe they're all just enjoying themselves playing?

 

Guess I'll go back to doing the same (had a break between my morning world bosses :# ).

[TheQuickFox.3826]

@"ZRoosty.7391" "We don't need a new map for every episode."

Please speak for yourself. I love exploring and maps. While I consider this specific Kourna map to be the worst of all LW maps, I love the general idea of new maps with living world episodes and I generally have had a great time with them.

[Chazz.6709]

I'm kinda tired of those "bugged and failed launches" yes i know those happends , but if anet would take more time for them . They would be probably much better. Map design is amazing and glorious tbh. It's amazing how different each maps kinda looks like, however those things mostly doesnt keep player for long. It's the stuff you can do there like metas . I mean check Silverwaste ! It's a ls2 map and it's still active and i still like to play it because it feels glorious to do. Also it got so much variation. Defending a fort with siege weapons , Support supply bulls to upgrade forts, open chests , kill legendaries that spawn randomly and protect certain npc and then engage the vinewrath !

 

This is a pretty amazing example. I wouldnt say new maps are bad ... well visualwise atleast , but the content there is pretty weak. I mostly just go on those maps. Check mp's gather them , unlock mp's and hope they are usefull,which are currently getting weirder and weirder everytime ... i mean i get those ideas behind them , but the way how anet release them is rather strange.

 

It would be cool maybe that some stories will be on one map and slowly additionals events or stuff are getting added on this map. I dont think it's makes more difference , but it would be something. Also keep in mind we may need to get atleast 4 more expansions ,since we have 4 more dragons out there to destroy ! :^).

[zealex.9410]

Ye i liked how it was done in se2. 2 maps woth deep replayability and missions taking part in the old world as well.

 

And luminecent armor Kreygasm.

[Chazz.6709]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Ye i liked how it was done in se2. 2 maps woth deep replayability and missions taking part in the old world as well.

>

> And luminecent armor Kreygasm.

 

Thanks for reminding me .... im still working on that armor lol .... im always getting distracted by all that stuff , which im doing atm ... geeez :^) ..... but yes was cool sometimes to go back . I really enjoy it also to go back to old maps . So new players can atleast see some high level "players" and dont feel like old maps are abadoned or anything like that.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"ZRoosty.7391" said:

> I feel like the main criticisms at the moment come from the lack of replayability in the lastest LS Episode. The meta isn't fun or rewarding, and there is an overall lack of new long term rewards to work towards. And I feel like both of these are consequences from the design philosophy that every new episode has to come with a new map. I feel like a lot of time is wasted on the design of these maps when they are mostly abondend a few weeks later. A time that could instead be used by the design team to work on new raids, fractals or story instances. The latest episode could have perfectly taken place in the Desolation, with us storming on the bone palace. I wouldn't suggest that new maps should be permanently removed from LS releases, Istan was great to revisit, but taking the time to add more landmass to Tyria when we already have such a large world to explore feels redundant. Instead of half hearted meta events, give us rewards that never go out of relevance in the form of cosmetics. Or atleast examine how much trouble the new maps are really worth ANET.

 

Yes, i've repeated this sentiment already.

 

And right now in the story it's great for this. They could use the lull between just defeating Joko and the next objective to revisit hanging plot points, like the fate of the Pale Tree, the effects of cleansing Orr (or the consequences of Caladbolg having been broken for a while, and Trahearne's death to the cleansing), the fate of areas ravaged by previous Living World episodes like Fort Salma, the destroyed Waypoints, Iron Marches, Kessex, etc.

 

They could use plot points that take us back to core maps as an excuse to pour the same resources used into building new maps to make reworks on 1-2 maps at once, adding new content, updating old stuff, reviewing rewards, etc.

 

[runeblade.7514]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Just throwing in an idea here:

>

> What if they recycled maps a little more? They make a map for a chapter, then they recycle it the next 1 or 2 chapters, and add more stuff to the map (thus fleshing it out over time).

 

The problem with that is that they want to sell living story separately.

 

If episode 4 needs episode 3, then people will be alienated even if they get episode 4 for free.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > Just throwing in an idea here:

> >

> > What if they recycled maps a little more? They make a map for a chapter, then they recycle it the next 1 or 2 chapters, and add more stuff to the map (thus fleshing it out over time).

>

> The problem with that is that they want to sell living story separately.

>

> If episode 4 needs episode 3, then people will be alienated even if they get episode 4 for free.

 

That would be easily fixed... Either episode unlocks the map, or they could even stop locking maps behind story.

 

At this point, it feels like Living World Maps are becoming more of a publicity gimmick than actual valid quality content. It's more them being able to say "hey we released this much content 'for free', see?" than actually about providing content that makes sense.

[Eteru Seishin.7125]

> @"Kelly.7019" said:

> YES WE DO!

>

> > @"ZRoosty.7391" said:

> > I feel like the main criticisms at the moment come from the lack of replayability in the lastest LS Episode. The meta isn't fun or rewarding, and there is an overall lack of new long term rewards to work towards. And I feel like both of these are consequences from the design philosophy that every new episode has to come with a new map. I feel like a lot of time is wasted on the design of these maps when they are mostly abondend a few weeks later. A time that could instead be used by the design team to work on new raids, fractals or story instances. The latest episode could have perfectly taken place in the Desolation, with us storming on the bone palace. I wouldn't suggest that new maps should be permanently removed from LS releases, Istan was great to revisit, but taking the time to add more landmass to Tyria when we already have such a large world to explore feels redundant. Instead of half hearted meta events, give us rewards that never go out of relevance in the form of cosmetics. Or atleast examine how much trouble the new maps are really worth ANET.

>

> I have to disagree. New exploration is what i look forward too more then raids, fractals or story. Honestly, i didn't think this would come tied to LW episodes in the beginning. I thought we would get them at the start of HoT & PoF like we did with Core Tyria. But If not a new map every episode then i expect 4 maps at once! :D You can add more story content and dynamic events that go with that story later like the Kessex Hills shakeup (living World season 2?) but make it permanent.

>

> I feel like a lot of time is wasted on raids, a direction i wish the game never went for a niche, salty, can be easily negative crowd. The game has one of the most positive communities i've seen and you want to ruin it with raiding? uhhg. I think the reason the maps are mostly abondend a few weeks later is because of the PoF easy mentality and to not make it grindy like HoT which i loved. Good Dynamic Metas that keep you coming back to collect map specific currency. After PoF was released alot of folks finished their cheeves and went back to these HoT maps because the PoF ones felt boring. This isn't the maps fault but the design philosophy. Which adding new maps brings people back into the PoF world and Story should tie them together better. Instead of going to core tyria for Kourna chieves keep them in PoF maps at least!

>

> I think the devs should take time to add more landmass to Tyria. I want to see the entire world! But take the time to design it right. Have metas the keep bringing people back. I pref different map currency over the same thing everywhere. Enough with this easy content for newbies, lets make some more challening or hidden things. Make a new exploration game mode, hidden secrets & treasures await for those that seek it out.

>

 

I completely agree. I love seeing new areas of Tyria that I once knew from Guild Wars 1. It brings back a lot of nostalgia. I do also think that the teams should focus more on completeness and filling the maps with more content than they have. As said, the maps are used for a couple weeks heavily, then everyone leaves and moves on. We need reasons to populate the maps. I personally love Jumping Puzzles and exploration. I never see any new dungeons anymore! Why is that?? I feel everything moved away from Dungeons and went to Raids. Don't get me wrong, I love raiding, but I would love to be able to explore more dungeons like we did in core Tyria. I'd like to be able to take my newbie guildies on dungeon crawls that aren't the same few that we have in core Tyria.

 

Also, while we're at it, I wish the guild system would revert back to the previous. It made guild participation and representation feel more valuable. And understanding that Guild Wars 1 had multiple small guild halls and we have 3 large ones, I'd still love to see more choice in guild halls. I feel like the core idea of "Guild Wars" got lost somewhere a while back. We need more focus on guilds and content for them. More missions specifically as I don't think most guilds once they reach near their maximum level even bother doing missions anymore; and that for the most part, is the only thing guilds really can do that is "unique." And why do we not have alliances? What is this? I'm hoping the rumored WvW changes will bring a ton more changes to the entire guild system that will make it more fun and make it feel like it's something worth feeling pride over.

 

Also, the meta events lately have felt very lackluster. Remember Dragon's Stand? THE WHOLE MAP is the meta. Why do we have metas now that literally last less than 15 minutes it seems? That is not a meta, that is boring. Please focus on more content. Hearty content. Not just a placeholder! The players in Guild Wars 2 are usually quite loyal, and if ANET wants to keep them here and to bring more in, I believe some of these areas are important for them to focus on.

[Ashabhi.1365]

I may look at the whole situation a bit differently, but as I zoom out to the World Map, I see two things. First of all, the world of GW2 is f'n HUGE. There are a lot of zones that I have yet to fully explore. Secondly, the map looks a LOT like the fully explored map for GW1. I can see where so much of GW2 used to be the parts of GW1 we all "grew up" with.

 

The problem isn't in the maps, it's that people burn through content in one map and never return. I would bet that a lot of people aren't actually doing "everything" in a map and yet screaming that they're bored because there's nothing to do. As far as "metas" go, there are some that are long and engaging, others that are short and kind of meh. For instance: I rarely see Octovine or Ulgoth the Modniir without any people. On the other hand, nobody did the M2K Golem world boss much any more until the beetle collection happened. New maps are the thing that keeps veteran players in the game. Do we need one with every LS episode? Probably not, but unless they plan on completely destroying and rebuilding a zone like they did with LA (that's a whole other irritant that I won't get into here) then we're going to get new maps with every story.

[Leo G.4501]

The way the zone releases work is that when they make the expansion, they plan out all the zones for the release and the living story chapters. The release of new zones is just part of the expansion content with a delayed release.

 

The question could be, should the expansion zone content be more concentrated with fewer zones. The answer is, people have complained that the PoF zones are just flat and spread out and feel empty (not my words, I quite like the density of the zones). There's your answer.

 

I think they could have gotten away with layering the zones a bit, even keeping some places blocked off until the story chapters release them open up that section or layer of the zone.

 

Just like anything in excess, there will be overexposure leading to fatigue.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Id rather see them doing most if not all of se5 on one/ two maps that simply arent complete from the getgo and each episode expands them with events and more areas.

>

> Sick and tired of getting a map for the sake of getting it and then forgeting it event exists come the next episode.

>

> Dont get me wrong i like all the maps we got but jesus christ its like they dont exist after the new wpisode is out.

 

What I can not stand is most of the new maps require you to teleport somehow to get to them. Bitterfrost has been the sole expansion map the past two seasons that broke this mold and that is only if one of your characters had been there (doric too but only for the character that did the story, any other character is refused entry). Where they show up on the world map does not matter for most things: you could be on a map that is right next to it but will still need to teleport to it. Rather than taking the opportunity to expand the map we are getting ..... I am not even sure what classification they would get.

 

 

[runeblade.7514]

>@"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > Just throwing in an idea here:

> > >

> > > What if they recycled maps a little more? They make a map for a chapter, then they recycle it the next 1 or 2 chapters, and add more stuff to the map (thus fleshing it out over time).

> >

> > The problem with that is that they want to sell living story separately.

> >

> > If episode 4 needs episode 3, then people will be alienated even if they get episode 4 for free.

>

> That would be easily fixed... Either episode unlocks the map, or they could even stop locking maps behind story.

>

> At this point, it feels like Living World Maps are becoming more of a publicity gimmick than actual valid quality content. It's more them being able to say "hey we released this much content 'for free', see?" than actually about providing content that makes sense.

 

It also wouldn't fix the problem that Kourna has right now as story instances are in, you know, instances. All it will do is just gate content. The only way to fix Kourna is with a patch.

 

Oh, do you mean you want to divert resources from making a new map to fixing Kourna? Well, I rather have a new map.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> >@"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > > Just throwing in an idea here:

> > > >

> > > > What if they recycled maps a little more? They make a map for a chapter, then they recycle it the next 1 or 2 chapters, and add more stuff to the map (thus fleshing it out over time).

> > >

> > > The problem with that is that they want to sell living story separately.

> > >

> > > If episode 4 needs episode 3, then people will be alienated even if they get episode 4 for free.

> >

> > That would be easily fixed... Either episode unlocks the map, or they could even stop locking maps behind story.

> >

> > At this point, it feels like Living World Maps are becoming more of a publicity gimmick than actual valid quality content. It's more them being able to say "hey we released this much content 'for free', see?" than actually about providing content that makes sense.

>

> It also wouldn't fix the problem that Kourna has right now as story instances are in, you know, instances. All it will do is just gate content. The only way to fix Kourna is with a patch.

>

Who talked about fixing Kourna?

 

As a map, Kourna needs fixing, not to the topography of it, but the systems (events, rewards, meta), that doesn't affect the instanced content. Also, again, this isn't about Episode 3, it's about the future of Living World, and the fact that every episode is on repeat, new map (might or not have good metas), new currency (might or not be useful), new stat set (99% of the time a useless one), a few ascended items (which are actually absent this time), and a few collections that half the time are just done for the sake of completionism than actually being of use.

 

Your problem, which i quoted, was that if they recycled maps, they couldn't "sell" them separately, because then you'd need the previous episode to unlock the map to enjoy in the following. I just said this problem has an easy fix, either episode unlocks the map. Hence no conflict. Or just make maps not locked to episodes, another way to avoid that conflict.

 

> Oh, do you mean you want to divert resources from making a new map to fixing Kourna? Well, I rather have a new map.

It's not diverting resources. It's using the resources you have intelligently, like they did in LS2, for example.

They have an entire map design team that's apparently attached to the living world teams. Now, if instead of just spitting out new maps for the sake of spitting out new maps, they used that team to go back and rework old systems, add new content to old maps, and basically fulfil their original promise of constant fresh content in all areas of the game.

This was well used in season 2, they brought us back to old maps in exciting ways by reworking parts of old maps and adding new content, while at the same time, giving us new maps in a staggered manner, giving time for that content to mature, and be useful. Both Season 2 maps stood the test of time, they're 4 years old and are more lively today than many of Season 3's maps.

 

Of course there will be Skritt-minded people that just want the new shiny, and won't like this. But using the resources intelligently in this manner is healthier for the game overall, by allowing older content to keep pace with the rest.

 

[Saint Sated.2698]

I fully agree that the "Living World" does not really feel to me like a living world. Expanding the maps available to the players, imo, is not a bad idea itself, but when it becomes so stale and expected and the story constantly pushing to a _new zone_ ; without much focus on updating our current maps to reflect the current state of the "Living World", it all feels wrong to me.

Another note - It's also not all about getting new content, but rather giving the players more control over builds, skills, you know stuff the theory craft with. That alone could really push the game into a more open direction. I imagine reworking the skill tree and equipment prefixes would give the players lots of busy-work (crafting new builds and finding new enjoyable play styles), and allow the Anet teams more time to really make marketable, profitable content - unbugged.

I would like the ArenaNet team to consider this thread very carefully. You people made a really nice game.

 

[runeblade.7514]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > >@"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > > > Just throwing in an idea here:

> > > > >

> > > > > What if they recycled maps a little more? They make a map for a chapter, then they recycle it the next 1 or 2 chapters, and add more stuff to the map (thus fleshing it out over time).

> > > >

> > > > The problem with that is that they want to sell living story separately.

> > > >

> > > > If episode 4 needs episode 3, then people will be alienated even if they get episode 4 for free.

> > >

> > > That would be easily fixed... Either episode unlocks the map, or they could even stop locking maps behind story.

> > >

> > > At this point, it feels like Living World Maps are becoming more of a publicity gimmick than actual valid quality content. It's more them being able to say "hey we released this much content 'for free', see?" than actually about providing content that makes sense.

> >

> > It also wouldn't fix the problem that Kourna has right now as story instances are in, you know, instances. All it will do is just gate content. The only way to fix Kourna is with a patch.

> >

> Who talked about fixing Kourna?

>

 

The entire thread is about how Kourna isn't up to standard and how it feels lacking.

 

Or Is it that you meant that you want to put a story instance in Kourna just for the sake of putting a story instance in Kourna?

[Zarghoul.5687]

i agree with this, i think spending a couple of LW patches, revisiting and reworking maps would be great, i know they did it with kessex hills and people complained, but the easiest thing to do about tht, it to give people the ability to see a place in an instance before it changed, i redid the main story with a friend the other day, and loved seeing the old LA, i think the world we have needs an overhaul, and would fully support either a living world or full expansion that looks at and reworks the world, as i feel if the map that is dropped with each patch dosnt make gold for players, it will die within a couple weeks

 

[Lord Krilik.3692]

I'd be open to receiving half a map with one release and the rest unlocks later, like season 2, and also with shorter release windows. Some new maps are great, but I'd rather see 3-4 new maps throughout an 8 episode season than 8 new maps that get discarded. Sadly, I think this format is here to stay. They added those portal books after all.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Lord Krilik.3692" said:

> I'd be open to receiving half a map with one release and the rest unlocks later, like season 2, and also with shorter release windows. Some new maps are great, but I'd rather see 3-4 new maps throughout an 8 episode season than 8 new maps that get discarded. Sadly, I think this format is here to stay. They added those portal books after all.

 

The currently bugged ones, you mean? ^_^

 

Yeah, sadly living world seems to have fallen into a sort of cookie cutter-like routine, it would be nice if they broke that routine. It would be great to see other World bosses (current ones) being elevated to the status of Teqatl, Shatterer, or Triple Trouble. Would be great to see **new** ones that are just world bosses, instead of something you have to go through a whole process to fight, like all world bosses released post HoT (all stuck at the end of a lengthy meta). There's equal space for both!

 

It would be great to see some of the many hanging plot points be resolved, and Kessex cleaned up, Orr somewhat more revitalized, bounties and stuff like mushrooms or other Mastery interactions carried over to more maps, have rewards revisited. New events on older maps, etc.

 

I'm not even saying to do an episode about like getting Dragon's Watch settled in the guild's association, and take that chance to revamp more of the guild's systems. Seriously, you could take the Living world and use it to do just about anything they want. And if they do it well, it will be well received! Because people enjoy having reasons to go back to old content. I've seen mostly positive reviews about going back and killing the Anomaly for the beetle. The negative ones i've seen have been mostly about how fast it dies, not really because of having to go back to old content.

[runeblade.7514]

> @"Lord Krilik.3692" said:

> I'd be open to receiving half a map with one release and the rest unlocks later, like season 2, and also with shorter release windows. Some new maps are great, but I'd rather see 3-4 new maps throughout an 8 episode season than 8 new maps that get discarded. Sadly, I think this format is here to stay. They added those portal books after all.

 

I am not open to that. I expect full maps every 3 months, nothing less than that.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > @"Lord Krilik.3692" said:

> > I'd be open to receiving half a map with one release and the rest unlocks later, like season 2, and also with shorter release windows. Some new maps are great, but I'd rather see 3-4 new maps throughout an 8 episode season than 8 new maps that get discarded. Sadly, I think this format is here to stay. They added those portal books after all.

>

> I am not open to that. I expect full maps every 3 months, nothing less than that.

 

And when you don't get your full map in 3 months?

[Ruadan.9301]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Id rather see them doing most if not all of se5 on one/ two maps that simply arent complete from the getgo and each episode expands them with events and more areas.

>

> Sick and tired of getting a map for the sake of getting it and then forgeting it event exists come the next episode.

>

> Dont get me wrong i like all the maps we got but jesus christ its like they dont exist after the new wpisode is out.

 

It's you as an individual who decides to treat them as if they didn't exist. They are all still playable. Went to Sandswept and Istan yesterday and everything was being done. Even the LS3 maps are not dead, and mostly fun as ever if you're not dead tired from the map content.

I think you're exaggerating here. Actually, once you've not been to the old maps for a while, they even start feeling somewhat fresh again, if you were exhausted of them beforehand.

 

That's not to say I don't like your idea. At some point we will be in Season 7 and have a choice between, what, some 36 maps? I guess they can't keep this up forever... at some point they're spreading the playerbase too thin.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ruadan.9301" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Id rather see them doing most if not all of se5 on one/ two maps that simply arent complete from the getgo and each episode expands them with events and more areas.

> >

> > Sick and tired of getting a map for the sake of getting it and then forgeting it event exists come the next episode.

> >

> > Dont get me wrong i like all the maps we got but jesus christ its like they dont exist after the new wpisode is out.

>

> It's you as an individual who decides to treat them as if they didn't exist. They are all still playable. Went to Sandswept and Istan yesterday and everything was being done. Even the LS3 maps are not dead, and mostly fun as ever if you're not dead tired from the map content.

> I think you're exaggerating here. Actually, once you've not been to the old maps for a while, they even start feeling somewhat fresh again, if you were exhausted of them beforehand.

>

> That's not to say I don't like your idea. At some point we will be in Season 7 and have a choice between, what, some 36 maps? I guess they can't keep this up forever... at some point they're spreading the playerbase too thin.

 

The story never takes us back to those maps.