*Spoiler* Specifically About Joko

[Alimar.8760]

I must say, the ending for this episode was quite well done. The speech and the cinematic were very well done. I have this current head canon that he's not actually dead and it was all fake. (Somehow even though Aurene did eat him.) Because he was constantly making stage references and what better thing to do than to die on stage in front of an audience only to appear afterwards! Any true wants to die on stage at least once in their life. (Maybe it was a joko actor from Vabbi?) What I'm most concerned with is the story. I felt like this conclusion to the Joko story was fairly rushed.

 

A reason that irked at me were that Joko's immortality was famed. Spanning at least many hundreds of hundreds of years of history. We never had one mention that his immortality would be an issue. (And it indeed wasn't in the end.) But not even a lantern shined on it really. (Until the very ending absolutely excellent cinematic.) I never see a character mention that the Commander has zero plan to kill Joko even though he's famed to be immortal. Nothing like "You just plan on whacking him with your sword until he surrenders? He's immortal." or maybe an excuse like, he's actually faking his immortality. I felt it was an unutilized part of a serious bit of lore, and personally detrimental to Joko as a famed character that spanned two games. Because the commander being canonically as good as they are, probably wouldn't have rushed in without a plan. That's Braham's job. ;)

 

So my ultimate question for you, is; I understand parts of this story were cut and shortened to fit the need to finish this Living Story enemies arc. However were there things you wanted to do with Joko, or parts of the story that were cut that you'd like to mention, that would have been great story telling wise, but did not make it into the final version of the episode?

[PeterFries.1057]

We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

As a GW1 player whose main is a decendant of my GW1 main, I *loved* that we (via Aurene) finally cleaned up our ancestor's mess. I find the "circumvent immortality via magic-eating predator" solution perfectly fine! Me and my partner were cheering when Aurene tackled him and were cackling at the squeamishness of some of the NPCs :D

[Randulf.7614]

> @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

 

That is quite gutting to hear it was cut. That would helped improve the episode tenfold in my opinion

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> As a GW1 player whose main is a decendant of my GW1 main, I *loved* that we (via Aurene) finally cleaned up our ancestor's mess. I find the "circumvent immortality via magic-eating predator" solution perfectly fine! Me and my partner were cheering when Aurene tackled him and were cackling at the squeamishness of some of the NPCs :D

 

I like the fact Aurene knocks you back too, she was determined to end Joko!

Taimi's reaction was the best, "What, what's Aurene eating..? *heaves* ~ "Is she done yet? Oh. No. No, no she's not."

 

>!

 

 

[Alimar.8760]

> @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

 

I thing that bothered me is it was never stated out loud either by the commander or by a companion. But with that response I think I am satisfied. Let's close the curtain till Joko comes up with his next biggest act! :D

 

[Alimar.8760]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

>

> That is quite gutting to hear it was cut. That would helped improve the episode tenfold in my opinion

 

It would have been nice to at least have a comment made here or there about it.

[Alimar.8760]

 

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> As a GW1 player whose main is a decendant of my GW1 main, I *loved* that we (via Aurene) finally cleaned up our ancestor's mess. I find the "circumvent immortality via magic-eating predator" solution perfectly fine! Me and my partner were cheering when Aurene tackled him and were cackling at the squeamishness of some of the NPCs :D

 

It was very well done. I liked the solution of Aurene since she absorbs magic. It brings up the thought that we've proven that Dragons absorbing other Dragon Magic gain the powers of that dragon (To an extent.) So what about Joko? Does Aurene get his powers now? An Aurene Awakened Army? We can call them AAA for short, and maybe get a discount on waypoints throughout the desert?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> > We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

>

> That is quite gutting to hear it was cut. That would helped improve the episode tenfold in my opinion

 

Yeah. I dunno, I personally wouldve liked an origin story on Joko. But right up to the end the last instance it was compelling. Until his untimely demise. Then it was more like "oh... but... but hes interesting....:( "

 

I dont see why he couldnt be spit out, pretty much drained of magic and be buried and locked away again. and/or spread his bodyparts all over The world.

 

I very much like an open end to such an interesting Villain. He doesnt even need to return ever again, as long as the possibility is open.

 

This episode felt to me like, I guess they dont understand the value of reoccurring villains.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

Because people like Turai Ossa proved that he was infact immortal and invincible

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> > We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

> Because people like Turai Ossa proved that he was infact immortal and invincible

 

Or they just didn’t have a means to kill them. How many had thought dragons were impossible to kill until Zhaitan was killed?

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> > > We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

> > Because people like Turai Ossa proved that he was infact immortal and invincible

>

> Or they just didn’t have a means to kill them. How many had thought dragons were impossible to kill until Zhaitan was killed?

I never liked the way we combat elder dragons either

[Alimar.8760]

Seems to me that Anet has a policy to make content that's "contained" so that people who buy 1 expansion don't miss out on story or for other reasons. Evidence for it is everywhere, and it very much sounds like they were told they had to wrap up Joko in 3 episodes. (For instance LS3 map mechanics that are only for that map and are never used again. Kodan Torches, Lava Tubes, Glider Skills.) Which I feel is a fine business model because it prevents player dissatisfaction if they only buy 1 episode, or 1 expansion here and there. But I do agree that the idea that you're required to "One and done" a villain or "Monster of the day" the villain then move onto the next feels absurd both storytelling and design.

[Orimidu.9604]

> @"Alimar.8760" said:

> Seems to me that Anet has a policy to make content that's "contained" so that people who buy 1 expansion don't miss out on story or for other reasons. Evidence for it is everywhere, and it very much sounds like they were told they had to wrap up Joko in 3 episodes. (For instance LS3 map mechanics that are only for that map and are never used again. Kodan Torches, Lava Tubes, Glider Skills.) Which I feel is a fine business model because it prevents player dissatisfaction if they only buy 1 episode, or 1 expansion here and there. But I do agree that the idea that you're required to "One and done" a villain or "Monster of the day" the villain then move onto the next feels absurd both storytelling and design.

 

That and Joko isn't a new creation like the dragons. He's been a villain since the beginning, and given the amount of character development and plot given to him in both Nightfall and GW2's Elona, he certainly deserves to have a better end than dues-ex-dragon.

[Neil Pollner II.7602]

Hi all.

 

As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

 

So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

 

Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

[zealex.9410]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> Hi all.

>

> As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

>

> So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

>

> Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

 

Thanks Neil, but as someone whos been with gw2 since prob season 2 and has played through every encounter with an elder dragon, i dont find them anywhere near as interesting as joko. I see why would you kill him as early as you did but im sceptical about whos gonna be next and if hes gonna of the same standards. Imho balthazar didnt meet said standards and lazarus had 1 appearance.

[Neil Pollner II.7602]

We hear you. It only adds to the motivation we have to make whatever comes next special.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> Hi all.

>

> As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

>

> So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

>

> Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

 

I think because it happened before a few times (eg Lazarus-not Lazarus-but here's another Lazarus who's dead 5 minutes later), many of us are losing hope for a well rounded and long standing nemesis that maintains the longer term respect of the writers. Joko was pretty much perfect for this given his attachment to the franchise and to kill him, was for me, just the wrong decision for this point in the story. I think for me, one of the issues is that you guys sometimes look at the plot over multiple seasons/expansion, whereas we only see one episode at a time. To you guys, Joko's conclusion was "time" in the longer arc. For many of us, a really interesting story was building and that has now gone quite abruptly given that the signs logically indicated a longer arc. Especially after following on from Balthazar where so much lore and character development for such an established name was pushed aside

 

So much potential and of course all that really cool and interesting coinciding lore, pretty much gone. And that (in my opinion) has damaged the integrity of the story severely. This is often a recurring theme where lore and a wider story gets cut out for various scoping reasons, yet the ongoing feedback often is, actually we want all of that.

 

Obviously not everyone will agree and I of course do not speak for everyone, but for me it was compounded by the reduction in the amount of map storytelling you guys did. Some of biggest strengths of the team has always been how the map, events and general ambience tells multiple small stories that lend itself to a larger story, enriched in lore and often using metas to really drive some of the more epic scales or the main map message - Lake Doric, Istan, SIlverwastes, Battle for LA, Sandswept Isles, Tangled Depths to name just a few. If this was to be Joko's last stand, the story in the map just lacked the strength of those others, so that made it a double disappointment.

 

So yes we do care, but many like myself are now wondering after this episode is it worth the investment for us to continue to care when the story presents itself in such a cavalier way even when you say it isn't so. It shouldn't take an AMA to convince us that it isn't so, so it is down to you guys to really show you do care about these things consistently. Episode 1 and 2 you absolutely did. Episode 3, for me personally you definitely did not beyond some fun dialogue and a nice produced cutscene.

[Neil Pollner II.7602]

I appreciate your well-articulated input. I definitely matters.

[Neil Pollner II.7602]

Ha — *it* definitely matters.

[Bast.7253]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> Hi all.

>

> As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

>

> So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

>

> Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

 

Are you allowed to confirm that we will get more on Joko's backstory later in the season? Like his origins and what-not? Probably not, but I figured it was worth a shot to ask. That was one of the things I was really looking forward to and kind of hoped we would get this episode as I knew he was reaching his conclusion. It would be really sad if we didn't at least get a vision or somekind of lore collectables somewhere that would tell us his full story. :(

[Orimidu.9604]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> Ha — *it* definitely matters.

 

Really appreciate the cordial dialogue you have going in this thread. Everything Randulf said I am in agreement with, and I couldn't have said it better. I'll connect the dots with some examples of what I feel many players were expecting.

 

**1) The delay**

The delay in Episode 3 went against the release cadence mentioned earlier this year, but release delays are always forgiven if it's in the name of polishing content and squashing bugs. Of course the largest bug was something your testing servers couldn't see as opposed to the live servers, so it's understandable, but the ratio of delay to quality was too large. This leads into #2, unused and cut content.

 

**2) Gandara / Map Meta**

Dragon's Stand is still the most played meta to date, rivaling Silverwastes in fun and content. It has variety--three paths to choose from and three squads for an individual to either follow or try to run around and fight with all three. The small events done at each checkpoint contribute to the final battle with the Mouth of Mordremoth, and failing them makes the battle more difficult. The variety, coupled with good loot in the nightmare pods and several achievements related to the meta (weapon collections), make Dragon's Stand a very replayable map that kept players busy until Season 3 released.

 

Gandara doesn't have any of this. There is little to no loot, no weapon collections, and no variety in the meta. Two of the entrances to the fortress are unused, and while we went into Domain of Istan prepared for an actual battlefield with armies on both sides, what we found was lackluster and didn't feel like a battle at all. This map could have been used to build up to the climax of the story--the final showdown with Joko and his death.

 

**3) Joko's Demise / Story Narrative**

Palawa Joko has been a huge part of Elona's history since Nightfall. You have veteran players with growing anticipation of the return of their fan-favorite guild wars villain, and new players who have been hyped up to Joko due to his in-depth lore explanation throughout the Path of Fire expansion. Does Joko deserve his own expansion? Arguably, no. Guild Wars 2 is about the dragons and the magical balance of Tyria, so Joko has to be removed from the spotlight before the next expansion. However, the very fact that there are theories going around that Joko actually _wanted_ us to kill him in order to achieve some sort of higher, more sinister goal should be enough to tell you that his end wasn't handled properly.

 

Personally, I understand the way he died and that it makes the most sense to do. Nobody saw Aurene coming, and what better way to remove a magically-immortal lich than have him be eaten by a magic-consuming dragon? The execution, however, was flawed. I believe that with a map-wide meta event like Dragon's Stand to lead up to the confrontation in Gandara (maybe with the meta being required to reach the entrance to the story instance), Joko's ending would have been seen in a more satisfying light.

[Bast.7253]

> @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

 

Just noticed this when I was scrolling up. Would have really loved to find out about his past to find his weakness. And as mentioned above, am still holding out hope that we will at least learn his backstory even if it isn't a major part of the story of the current episode and has little relevance now that he's _out of the way_.

[Ashabhi.1365]

I still don't believe he's completely gone. His corporeal body is gone, and most likely the magic it took to animate it, but Palawa Joko is immortal in the sense that his spirit (ghost, ether, soul, whatever) goes on. We had to grudgingly work with him in Nightfall in order to defeat Abbadon, and I just don't think the storytellers would simply off him in order to progress a story. Especially since, as someone else put it earlier, that he has had so much influence on so many people both living and dead. In fact, when the word gets out about his "death" I would bet some will be much more malevolent toward our heroes. After all, if those students in Vabbi think he's the hero, I would imagine they won't be happy finding out he's dead and that it's "our fault."

 

Aurene is now sick. She was moaning after her meal, so something obviously didn't agree with her, which made my mind splinter off in about 4 directions. Here's my theories:

 

1. Aurene has been corrupted. Joko knew she was out there and he wanted to make her sick so he could "cure" her and become her benefactor instead of the Commander. That way he could try to turn her against our little group of heroes and then take on Kralkatorric in order to absorb the energy himself. The next episode would involve begrudgingly working with Joko yet again to send Kralk back to sleep and deal with Aurene's split loyalties. I hope this is the way it goes, as I would enjoy keeping Joko alive. Partly out of nostalgia, but partly out of the fact that he's been the most interesting villian we've had to face in some time.

2. He deliberately poisoned Aurene in order to try to kill her off and the next episode will involve finding a cure while at the same time chasing Joko and dealing with Kralk, who has been suspiciously absent... It wouldn't surprise me if Joko had already put Kralk back to sleep. He knows about the balance of magic.

3. Aurene has absorbed Joko's spirit and now we have to deal with an Aurene/Joko hybrid that will be annoyingly cute and evil at the same time... kind of like Choya and Quaggans. The next episode would involve trying to separate them before Kralk takes over the world.

4. Aurene is now infected with the scarab plague and is toxic to everyone. The body Joko inhabited was a ruse in order to infect her. Now, wherever she flies, she will carry the plague. The next episode would involve taking on Kralkatorric and then having to kill her off or put her to sleep like Primordus.

 

Ok, so I am a conspiracy theorist at heart, but those are the immediate thoughts I had at the end of this episode. Like all opinions, it is solely mine, and I am responsible for all of the aforementioned drivel...lol

 

 

[Palador.2170]

Personally, I loved the ending. The fact is, we're on a different level than him now. Yes, he had a lot of power, but it was the power to throw endless minions at something. The Commander (and Friends! Saturdays, at 9:30 am!) is someone that cuts through endless minions and takes out the forces behind them.

 

Zhaitan. Scarlet Briar. Mordremoth. Evon Gnashblade. Balthazar. This is what we're used to, now. Joko's old dungeon level, like Gaheron Baelfire.

 

Once beaten down, dealing with him should have been easy. For all of his power, he's still linked to a body. Chop him up and seal each part in cement somewhere. (Maybe save the head to present to Mad King Thorn when he shows back up this year.) Or feed him to a magic eating dragon, which is what we actually did. Personally, I was hoping we'd stick him into a golem like Blish, and then turn it off.

 

And honestly? We (the Commander) needed a clean win. Too many of our victories have turned into terrible things in the end. But Joko was evil, and there were people dragging out the fight for their own ends. He crossed the line, so we stepped in and dealt with him. The Order of Shadows will just have to deal with it, unless they want to get in our way too.