*Spoiler* Specifically About Joko

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> Hi all.

>

> As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

>

> So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

>

> Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

 

This overlaps a bit with what @"Randulf.7614" posted. And I agree with what they said.

 

Part of my issue is that it kind of feels like a reoccurring theme, that villains get killed off very fast.

 

Caudecus had two appearances before-and-including death (excluding any appearances prior than three years, and even then it requires being human of certain backgrounds, or doing the CM story); Lazarus himself had one. Faolain got it better due to the flashbacks in S2, but even Mordremoth was barely conversed with before his death (yes, sylvari got the 'commentary to his minions' bit, but nothing was done to the Commander while Mordy "is the jungle" and had the chance to do talk directly to the dragonslayer).

 

So far, it really only feels like Devona (aka Herald of Balthazar), Balthazar, and Scarlet are the only villains that had a decent amount of screentime that wasn't separated by years of releases before their death.

 

But then you have your GW1 vets specifically, and the three main villains coming over from that game: Lazarus, Dhuum, and Joko. Lazarus was one-shotted in 5 minutes as cleanup duty; Dhuum got a raid that, in all honesty, was disappointing for the level of danger he once had; and we got this for Joko. Joko got the best treatment, but that's a low bar to leap over.

 

And with Joko gone, there now isn't a single villain who was personally met and conversed with from GW1 that's still around - unless we go into the realm of ghosts, or doing to others what happened to Balthazar - completely changing his personality to turn him from hero to villain.

 

Now, I've heard the commentary about "story debt" and getting to "the real antagonist of Season 4" all needing to be dealt with within a certain span of content and that Joko's plot was already quite stretched as it was. But I have to wonder why there's this apparent limit to Season 4's length - why can't you just add more episodes to the Season's length? - and on top of that, why can't some "plot debt" be dealt with in the manner of Side Stories (that's what it'd be best at - dealing with loose threads and "plot debt" so that the main story doesn't suffer).

[Shanna.4762]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> > Hi all.

> >

> > As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

> >

> > So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

> >

> > Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

>

> I think because it happened before a few times (eg Lazarus-not Lazarus-but here's another Lazarus who's dead 5 minutes later), many of us are losing hope for a well rounded and long standing nemesis that maintains the longer term respect of the writers. Joko was pretty much perfect for this given his attachment to the franchise and to kill him, was for me, just the wrong decision for this point in the story. I think for me, one of the issues is that you guys sometimes look at the plot over multiple seasons/expansion, whereas we only see one episode at a time. To you guys, Joko's conclusion was "time" in the longer arc. For many of us, a really interesting story was building and that has now gone quite abruptly given that the signs logically indicated a longer arc. Especially after following on from Balthazar where so much lore and character development for such an established name was pushed aside

>

> So much potential and of course all that really cool and interesting coinciding lore, pretty much gone. And that (in my opinion) has damaged the integrity of the story severely. This is often a recurring theme where lore and a wider story gets cut out for various scoping reasons, yet the ongoing feedback often is, actually we want all of that.

>

> Obviously not everyone will agree and I of course do not speak for everyone, but for me it was compounded by the reduction in the amount of map storytelling you guys did. Some of biggest strengths of the team has always been how the map, events and general ambience tells multiple small stories that lend itself to a larger story, enriched in lore and often using metas to really drive some of the more epic scales or the main map message - Lake Doric, Istan, SIlverwastes, Battle for LA, Sandswept Isles, Tangled Depths to name just a few. If this was to be Joko's last stand, the story in the map just lacked the strength of those others, so that made it a double disappointment.

>

> So yes we do care, but many like myself are now wondering after this episode is it worth the investment for us to continue to care when the story presents itself in such a cavalier way even when you say it isn't so. It shouldn't take an AMA to convince us that it isn't so, so it is down to you guys to really show you do care about these things consistently. Episode 1 and 2 you absolutely did. Episode 3, for me personally you definitely did not beyond some fun dialogue and a nice produced cutscene.

 

This sums up how I feel, as well. As I said before, Joko had a fantastically villainous personality and the writers as well as the actor who played him did an absolutely amazing job and has been my favorite since Scarlet. He was a villain that I thought could go on for some time, becoming a longer-term nemesis as Randulf put it, and I think that's something Guild Wars 2 could certainly use. I understand that the Elder Dragons are the main threat in this game, but while they are really cool and exciting in their own ways, they do not qualify as a villain to me, they are more of a problem that must be dealt with one way or another. Also, killing off a villain so iconic to the series with such a strong and direct connection to the first game, in such a seemingly abrupt manner and seeing him relegated to a secondary nemesis after everything he has done in both games, and the atrocities and oppression he had committed for generations was anti climactic and a pretty serious disappointment to me, and the fact there wasn't so much as a follow-up to commemorate his defeat in any way bothers me.

[Daishi.6027]

Someone who played GW1 may be able to correct me but, I feel we don't understand the rules of death in this world well enough.

In GW2 we first met Joko in the domain of the lost, and I doubt it was his first trip there, so I bet he can come back...

 

Him pointing out his immortality being understated I believe. I think when he returns we'll have to find some way to stop him from coming back, or lock him up so he can only return once a year like the mad king (I think I recall WP talking about them having history).

 

Question is if he isn't fully gone, for how long? Are we likely going to see the next 3 or so LS dealing with kralk leading up to the next expansion, and he may be a reoccurring villain after? Or is he gonna be like "lol gg, I'm back" within the next two?

 

It's also possible his minions will have to do something to help him come back idk.

 

Aurene eats magic so idk, maybe it is finally /gg

 

Loved the ending btw!

[VergilDeZaniah.3295]

Most concerns on here are unfortunately correct... If my two cents matter, the Joko's arc was too short imho.

 

We started building a great villain and I hoped we'd get more out of him than out of Balthazar, getting our bottom kicked one good time. The cinematic at the end of the episode was awesome, and made me think twice about the Commander's actions, but Joko's demise was a bit anti-climactic. I was like "... is that all?"

 

However, I keep in mind that it just leads to our next enemy, which was heavily hinted by Balthazar and other evidence we found throughout LS3 and 4.

 

So, while LS4E3 was a bit "low" in terms of replayability and story (that's, again, really subjective and a matter of personal opinion), the realization was quite good (Joko's behavior was marvelous), except for the end which fell a bit flat: Aurene is sick and nobody really bats an eye, no visible consequence of Joko's death, etc.

 

But I assume it's for the greater good, and I can't wait to see our next villain _ess_ ^^

[Tiny Doom.4380]

Video games are like comics: no-one is ever dead, period. Doesn't matter if a dragon ate them or they were fired into the heart of a super-nova. Anyone can come back and anyone does, repeatedly. This is because, unlike prose fiction, comics and video games are produced by teams of people not individuals and if the I.P. is successful it long outlasts and outlives the original creators and writers. New people come on board, both writing and making the decisions about what gets written, and inevitably individuals want to have their time with characters they remember, feel they could do better, feel would have a resonance with the audience or, most importantly, feel will have commercial success.

 

The current writing and production teams can make all the pronouncements they care to about whether Joko is or isn't coming back (ditto Scarlet or anyone else you care to name) but they can't either predict or bind the hands of anyone working on the I.P. next year, five years from now or ten. And video game I.P.s , like comics before them, clearly demonstrate the capacity to thrive and prosper not just for years but for decades.

 

So, Joko is only as dead as any given writer or producer wants him to be. Personaly I can't stand the tedious, unfunny, jerk or the pre-adolescent humor that surrounds his every move. I only wish he was gone for good. But he'll be back. If not soon then later. That's why it's impossible to care about any of this stuff beyond the most superficial level - none of it has or can have any permanence due to the nature of the form. The best we can hope for are some good one-liners (Joko has yet to make me crack even a wry smile), a few jump-scares and the occasional momentary emotional frisson. The current episode didn't do too badly on that front.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons.

Seeing as it happened not so long ago as another character people have been asking for (Lazarus) was brought back only to be almost imediately removed (_twice_), that another important force (the human gods) were contacted again, only to be also written out of the story (and should i even mention Gleam?), allow me to be a bit doubtful about that. You _do_ seem to do that a lot.

 

And the point is, you didn't really have to do that in this case. If you thought that the screentime you could assign to Joko wasn't long enough to do anything more complex, you could have simply left him hanging, imprisoned in Domain of the Lost for a while longer. The whole plot of first 2 episodes could easily have been done by proxies, or be a some sort of aftermath resulting from Joko _not_ being personally in charge, and some of his previous plans spinning out of control due to some overeager (or not so overeager) minions.

 

"we need to kill him off in 3 chapters, because we must move on to the _real_ story" seems to be a really bad ground for a narrative design.

 

Notice, that i'm ticked off by this even though i wasn't ever really a fan of Joko.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> In GW2 we first met Joko in the domain of the lost, and I doubt it was his first trip there, so I bet he can come back...

 

If he's there (again) it may take some time for him to remember who he was and then find some way to get out.

 

[DiogoSilva.7089]

I agree with the general opinion. Joko had great build-up, he had a great finale, but something was missing inbetween.

 

I think Anet lost an opportunity to make a truly terrifying villain here. The final cutscene had us lose to him, have him spit some harsh truth about the commander's actions and effects in Tyria, and the possibility of spreading more lies and turning the world against us. It was a high moment for Joko, a truly terrifying one. Anet could have followed the _Empire Strikes Back_ route: give us one (or more than one) full episode showing the villain winning and the situation getting bleaker (with additional side development for the commander's and aurene's relationship) before having Aurene eat him. He was this close to being terrifying, which made his sudden death very anti-climatic.

 

Still much better than Lazarus' treatment, though. That villain was discarded as fast as an open world's side boss.

 

I also think that GW2 would benefit by having a longer-lasting villain, to shake things up. Villains appear and disappear in a row, one after the other, but having someone more impactful and ever-lasting would be a nice change of pace.

[zealex.9410]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> > Hi all.

> >

> > As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

> >

> > So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

> >

> > Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

>

> Are you allowed to confirm that we will get more on Joko's backstory later in the season? Like his origins and what-not? Probably not, but I figured it was worth a shot to ask. That was one of the things I was really looking forward to and kind of hoped we would get this episode as I knew he was reaching his conclusion. It would be really sad if we didn't at least get a vision or somekind of lore collectables somewhere that would tell us his full story. :(

 

U might wonna talk to statues.

[zealex.9410]

> @"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

> I agree with the general opinion. Joko had great build-up, he had a great finale, but something was missing inbetween.

>

> I think Anet lost an opportunity to make a truly terrifying villain here. The final cutscene had us lose to him, have him spit some harsh truth about the commander's actions and effects in Tyria, and the possibility of spreading more lies and turning the world against us. It was a high moment for Joko, a truly terrifying one. Anet could have followed the _Empire Strikes Back_ route: give us one (or more than one) full episode showing the villain winning and the situation getting bleaker (with additional side development for the commander's and aurene's relationship) before having Aurene eat him. He was this close to being terrifying, which made his sudden death very anti-climatic.

>

> Still much better than Lazarus' treatment, though. That villain was discarded as fast as an open world's side boss.

>

> I also think that GW2 would benefit by having a longer-lasting villain, to shake things up. Villains appear and disappear in a row, one after the other, but having someone more impactful and ever-lasting would be a nice change of pace.

 

Imo this a problem the game has been dealing with for a while, outside of scarlet (and there being hardly visible) no other villian has changed the world. We havent seen anyone alter the land or break it you know leave a mark, a reminder. Imo Joko was a good chance to do that but meh, anet doesnt change the core world anymore feelsbad.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> > But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons.

> Seeing as it happened not so long ago as another character people have been asking for (Lazarus) was brought back only to be almost imediately removed (_twice_), that another important force (the human gods) were contacted again, only to be also written out of the story (and should i even mention Gleam?), allow me to be a bit doubtful about that. You _do_ seem to do that a lot.

>

> And the point is, you didn't really have to do that in this case. If you thought that the screentime you could assign to Joko wasn't long enough to do anything more complex, you could have simply left him hanging, imprisoned in Domain of the Lost for a while longer. The whole plot of first 2 episodes could easily have been done by proxies, or be a some sort of aftermath resulting from Joko _not_ being personally in charge, and some of his previous plans spinning out of control due to some overeager (or not so overeager) minions.

>

> "we need to kill him off in 3 chapters, because we must move on to the _real_ story" seems to be a really bad ground for a narrative design.

>

> Notice, that i'm ticked off by this even though i wasn't ever really a fan of Joko.

>

>

 

Imo gleam was done well, he was gone soon after we met him but he wasnt open about himself so the shard around the desert gave us more info that we would have recieved from him.

[hugo.4705]

Would agree with all Randulf has said. Personally I haven't played gw1. I don't know anything about Joko, like Scarlet, I was starting to create a link with this character, loving him... and this end was for me a REAL STAB IN MY BACK. Argue it how you want, but for me Aurene nom nom nom is a solution of facility. The story wasn't that exceptional apart these very stunning cutscenes.

 

Surely only a few person will agree with me on this point but, I would rather like that the mount, lady camilia and FTT turrets were never developed if It allows us to have a fully finished meta and map. Just see episode 2: the story + the map are awesome, for this episode, you actually told us that you reviewed your quality standards, and so, where is the quality in this episode?? Just like everything have been put in the mount or the cinematic...

 

So here we are, a villain that I wanted to know more about was just wiped out like a kitten, we speak about a very dangerous disease and a lich king!! It would require as a minimum, 2-3 episodes, like episode 3 and 4... Take a look on the map: for containing scarab, we just have to squish squish....

The only thing agree with, is joko monologue, we are the monster not him, he is a nice guy and I'm very sad for him, gotta regret him since now...

 

To end this, one thing that would be great is creating a poll every-time you need to decide about great plot turn!! I'm sure they are more people disappointed with joko's end than happy with it. But what is for sure, I haven't the will anymore to continue the living story.

Let's use a metaphor: During episode 1, I was a bird that started to learn how to fly, in the second episode, I flied perfectly and was very happy, but for this third episode, it's like a hunter shot in my wings and it made me crash.

 

To sum-up: I need far more than a correct level in the next living story to bring me back, and a COHERENT story! Don't think about "aurene kill kralkatorrik". Thanks.

Still haven't understood why you haven't continued like the previous episode side-events: Joko's invasions all around the world? Just instead of awakened you would put 3rd generations zombies, massive events where races fight to survive... guess i'm too imaginative.

Joko was and will stay the main villain of this season for me, enough of dragons.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> > We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

>

> That is quite gutting to hear it was cut. That would helped improve the episode tenfold in my opinion

 

It may not be absolutely cut

Just as we’re still waiting for the Abaddon fractal, a ‘*Joko’s Past*’ fractal would be,

In Joko’s own words ;

“_But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to not include these fractals_”

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > @"PeterFries.1057" said:

> > > We originally planned some content where you were researching Joko's past in order to find his weakness, a way to defeat his immortality. That honestly wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the storyline we released. We've seen it demonstrated again and again that Joko rewrote Elonian history and embellished his omnipotence over the generations in order to subjugate his citizens. Why shouldn't the Commander (who has killed two Elder Dragons and a god) just assume the tales of this tyrant's immortality weren't as phony as any of his other lies?

> >

> > That is quite gutting to hear it was cut. That would helped improve the episode tenfold in my opinion

>

> It may not be absolutely cut

> Just as we’re still waiting for the Abaddon fractal, a ‘*Joko’s Past*’ fractal would be,

> In Joko’s own words ;

> “_But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to not include these fractals_”

 

That would be quite cool. My only issue is that fractals benefit from variety and we've already had a slice of Joko and the Awakened told via fractals already. It has potential though.

[Inc.4753]

I'm having some mixed feelings about the issue.

 

One one hand, I really liked the way Joko was defeated. We already have a lot of villains of whom we have to find a particular weak spot, there was no need to introduce another one. Aurene eating him was a real surprise, and in the end makes sense. In one way I also feel that it is good that he was defeated immediately after his epic speech. If he would have walked away we would again be back at the 'find the weakness' storyline.

 

That said, I think my main problem with the way Joko was handled is the long build-up vs. the short actual dealing with Joko. We have all the history from GW1 and in The Movement of the World the entire part about Elona was about Joko. The Awakened and Joko were a significant part of Path of Fire. LW S4E1 felt like even more build-up, introducing the threat of the Scarab Plague. Only in the last two episodes were we dealing with Joko and his threat directly, and now it is already over. I know it is not fair, but to me it feels like several years of build up where Joko was portrayed as a formidable villain was now cut short in a few hours in which we barely did more than the equivalent of smashing a bug. Find it, kill it, done. As pointed out by many, after the speech it would have been amazing if he just walked away, leaving us to wonder why he let us alive and what his motivations and goals are.

 

Which is another thing that feels disappointing. I felt that Joko was an adversary that we could have a lot of interaction with, one that was a lot more present. The Elder Dragons are too powerful to actually have a lot of interaction with, they will most likely remain restricted to final bossfights and a rare cameo. Also, they actually don't feel like a constantly present threat. Balthazar, and any other on his level, was also too powerful. He could toy with us several times, before we eventually defeated him with a lot of help and a magical artifact. But Joko, Joko was more on our level. Powerful, yes, but not unbeatable. Joko was an adversary that could play the long game, no need to rush when you are immortal. No need to actively oppose the Elder Dragons when you can wait until they go back to sleep and then conquer the world for the next 10.000 years. He could have been the more present adversary, a constant threat that was unpredictable enough to remain surprising for a long time. I don't think we have a lot of villains left who could fill that role, while it is something I would love to see.

[Boris Losdindawoods.3098]

> @"Palador.2170" said:

> Evon Gnashblade.

 

Slow down there, buddy. Don't be getting harsh on the true hero of Lion's Arch. Just because what's-her-name stole one election...

 

Back to the original topic, the only thing I found lacking in the final scene was that it wasn't obvious enough that Joko had won. Having played through it more than once, it becomes more obvious, but I think a lot of people completely missed it the first time through. Joko has Braham and the commander frozen, but the characters are also immobile because we're in a cutscene. I think the mechanics of the cutscene took away a lot of the impact of the moment. Joko is draining life energy from his minions, healing himself, getting stronger with every moment and there's absolutely _nothing Braham or the commander can do about it because Joko has them trapped_. Game over, man. Joko wins.

 

In no particular order:

* Joko's speech was pure gold. In that moment, Joko _WAS_ the hero and the commander was the idiot who's been pushing Tyria to the brink of destruction.

* Taimi completely losing her Asuran detachment (and almost her lunch) was adorable. Now stop it. You can't keep making grown men sqeee every time Taimi shows up.

* Freakin' Canach. 20 pounds of cool in a 5 pound bag. I still think he should be pimped out in an all black version of the Fancy Winter Outfit though.

* E-P-I-D-E-M-I-C Ka-BRAHAM! I'm still giggling about that.

[Bast.7253]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Neil Pollner II.7602" said:

> > > Hi all.

> > >

> > > As the main writer for the A story of episode 3, and as a member of the team that broke this season’s arc/story, I can tell you that bringing the conflict with Joko to a deadly conclusion was not about sewing up lose threads. Or finding an antagonist we can just kill. We know that killing anyone iconic will be met with applause as well as boos. That’s testimony to having a rich world with rich characters and a wide fan base that is passionate and really connected to the experience. We expected that some will love how we orchestrated Joko’s demise and some will have issues with it. Both are valid. But please know, we don’t plan and do anything like this casually or for fleeting reasons. We pour over story and dig in deep and care immensely about the world and characters.

> > >

> > > So please trust me — episode 3’s developments and joko’s fate were not cavalier or whimsical dart throws.

> > >

> > > Thank you all for being so involved and for caring so much. That more than anything makes this job a pleasure!

> >

> > Are you allowed to confirm that we will get more on Joko's backstory later in the season? Like his origins and what-not? Probably not, but I figured it was worth a shot to ask. That was one of the things I was really looking forward to and kind of hoped we would get this episode as I knew he was reaching his conclusion. It would be really sad if we didn't at least get a vision or somekind of lore collectables somewhere that would tell us his full story. :(

>

> U might wonna talk to statues.

 

 

You mean the one where he talks about creating the gods and being born with the universe or whatever? No. I’ve already heard that. The other statues in Kourna or just like the intercom system in Vabbi.