Please dont give Wizards Tower to the raid team

[GRRRR.3521]

Had Woodenpotatoes video of the ama on in the background and he mentioned the wizards tower and also something how the different inhouse teams vie with each other who gets to do what. My first thought was "If the raid team gets the wizard tower im never goin to see any of it"

 

I remember back when Bloodstone Fen came out: OHNO COMMANDER A BLOODSTONE BLEW UP! PS if you wanna know why and how its explained in the raid. Uhuh. Oh theres another with Saul Dalessio. Welp. Oh yeh Duum is back too. Hmm thats nice wonder what thats about.

 

"GIT GUD/Anybody can raid". Nah. Several reasons (class/time/commitment/effort yadda yadda), cant do it anymore, dont wanna do it anymore, not my thing. If its gonna be a raid its entirely on me if im locked out of it, ill admit.

 

But its almost a LS1 Situation - the dev team spends considerable resources on content only a fraction of players will see. If hearsay stats are to be believed theres like 10% actively raiding or something? These 10% will go in the first week, go "eh thats neat" and then when its yet another weekly threadmill not give a X (you cant swear here right) if theyre beating up a a reanimated Joko-Snaff Mutant or a placeholder asset to get their 1/1000 unobtanium dust per boss kill for a legendary trenchcoat or whatever, meanwhile ~90% of the peasantry like me who likes pressing 1 on elite bunnies sits outside wondering what the story is.

 

If thats gonna be like that, ok, already happened anyway.

 

But hey heres an idea. The next raid is gonna be Master Tojos mythical dojo. All the enemies are wooden training dummies, the tile set is some public domain japan house thing, super cost effective. Rewards are katanas or whatever. Bosses are bigger training dummies, give them some super hard phases and lots of hp and switching resistances and stuff. There, raid done, raiders happy. Can we carebears go into the wizards tower now?

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@"GRRRR.3521" well said. I hope they do something cool with the wizard tower.

[Feanor.2358]

With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

[Zeefa.3915]

I agree. I don't raid either... don't really feel like spending that much time and effort on playing a class/build I don't like or enjoy.

As a fan of story and lore however it pains me that there is parts I'm missing. Places I can't go.

Can't do much about it though... I'll probably stay a "filthy casual" and raids will keep being a thing.

[Algreg.3629]

I am not a raider myself currently, so for the time being, I am "locked out" myself. What I don´t get though: You claim you are interested in the story, not in playing the raid. So there is a story mode: you can watch on youtube. If you are really in for the story only, it makes no difference whether you watch cutscenes/dialogues after encounters that do not challenge you (or me for that matter) or just a movie.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

It would be suitable for 1-2 dungeons and a raid instance. You could only reach with flying mounts. So the noobs are locked out (joking).

[hugo.4705]

I'm waiting to explore the wizard tower since the beginning, dont want her to be a raid but instead an explorable instanced area like nightmare tower in ls1. Or maybe a fractal but raid nonono for me.

[Palador.2170]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

 

No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

[Randulf.7614]

The wizards tower should be left alone forever. It works because it is mysterious and nothing they can do with it will live up to expectationsbuilt over 10 years. We have seen enough gw1 legacy poorly used in gw2, id rather not see another which genuinely doesnt need it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Palador.2170" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

>

> No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

 

Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> I'm waiting to explore the wizard tower since the beginning, dont want her to be a raid but instead an explorable instanced area like nightmare tower in ls1. Or maybe a fractal but raid nonono for me.

 

Villainy of Galrath fractal confirmed!!!! Oh, the horror... :)

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"GRRRR.3521" said:

> I remember back when Bloodstone Fen came out: OHNO COMMANDER A BLOODSTONE BLEW UP! PS if you wanna know why and how its explained in the raid. Uhuh. Oh theres another with Saul Dalessio. Welp. Oh yeh Duum is back too. Hmm thats nice wonder what thats about.

>

> "GIT GUD/Anybody can raid". Nah. Several reasons (class/time/commitment/effort yadda yadda), cant do it anymore, dont wanna do it anymore, not my thing. If its gonna be a raid its entirely on me if im locked out of it, ill admit.

 

I have tried raiding, and I don't find any decent explanations on any of the above in-game. Whether it's because you don't have the silence in raids (or any group content that requires TS) in order to listen to any NPC's talking, nor the time to stop and explore in search for answers. I guess it's just another GW2 typical case of "Want content-related answers? Go ask Wiki."

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"GRRRR.3521" said:

> "GIT GUD/Anybody can raid". Nah. Several reasons (class/time/commitment/effort yadda yadda), cant do it anymore, dont wanna do it anymore, not my thing. If its gonna be a raid its entirely on me if im locked out of it, ill admit.

 

>> dont wanna do it anymore, not my thing

Fine, but that's literally what your argument boils down to.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> >

> > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

>

> Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

 

I'd challenge the idea that something being "epic" means "10 man instance" but hey, might be a different understanding of what "epic" means.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> > >

> > > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

> >

> > Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

>

> I'd challenge the idea that something being "epic" means "10 man instance" but hey, might be a different understanding of what "epic" means.

 

It's not about the number of players in the instance, it's about the challenge. That's the big problem with the story instances - we fight Balthazar, but the fight isn't really hard, a rando White Mantle zealot abusing bloodstone feels much more dangerous and because of that much more of an accomplishment when defeated. And it should be clear that they will never do anything remotely as challenging as a raid boss outside of a raid, except maybe in fractal CMs. So if you want a cool story - sure, it can be wherever. Probably best in the personal story, as the other instances tend to be paced shorter. But if you want an epic fight, nothing will come close to a raid boss, sorry.

[Yannir.4132]

I say don't let anyone ever touch it.

Nothing they put in there will ever live up to the built up expectations.

The mystery is only so interesting because it's a mystery.

Just leave it be. Maybe hint at it somewhere but never actually capitalize. I know that would be annoying to some people but I don't really care. :lol:

[Blocki.4931]

If you wonder why the Bloodstone blew up you clearly didn't play the living story tied to the map...

 

Though that one NPC addressing you on the map as if you have played the raid might be kinda jarring for a second, though I doubt most people even noticed that.

 

Raids are additional lore, they're not required to understand the rest of the game and complaining you don't get access to that because you don't raid doesn't work either. Many people didn't play dungeons either and their lore at least ties into the story as a whole more than that.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I for one would prefer it to be used for all 3: Story, raid and a fractal.

 

Just look at all those wasted maps used for only one of the modes.

 

Faranur? It would be perfect for a raid and a fractal too, with those open spaces, isolated rooms and that final platform.

 

The gw2.dat getting big! Wouln't it be better if more of the assets were reused for more content?

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> > >

> > > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

> >

> > Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

>

> I'd challenge the idea that something being "epic" means "10 man instance" but hey, might be a different understanding of what "epic" means.

 

The number of players isn’t the thing here, it’s because the Wizard tower shouldn’t be open world (having hundreds of people running around in there would really diminish the place), and so were left with either Fractals, or Raids, and with Raids we’d actually end up with a large map we could explore, as well as more lore and stuff for it as well.

 

HOWEVER!! If the Fractal Team got it and was willing to make this a 2-3 part Fractal Story with CMs I think it could be done as well, if not better than Raids.

 

Or they could decide to get all the positives of it being a raid with all of the accessibility of it being a fractal by bringing back Dungeons, but I feel like we have a better chance of the Tengu being a playable race in the balance patch today than that.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> HOWEVER!! If the Fractal Team got it and was willing to make this a 2-3 part Fractal Story with CMs I think it could be done as well, if not better than Raids.

 

I don't think we'll see many new fractal CMs, at least not without some change in their reward structure. The problem is CMs effectively add another fractal to the daily routine for the dedicated groups. And even if you're not *that* dedicated you're still pressured to play them in order to not fall behind on kps, meaning harder time finding a group in the future. So I expect ANet to be quite conservative here, maybe not even add another CM in the upcoming months until they figure out what exactly they want to do there.

 

Furthermore, even if they did, they still wouldn't quite make the same level of content as raids. The 10-man format simply gives them greater freedom to create interesting mechanics due to the sheer fact you have twice as many people you can task with stuff.

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > HOWEVER!! If the Fractal Team got it and was willing to make this a 2-3 part Fractal Story with CMs I think it could be done as well, if not better than Raids.

>

> I don't think we'll see many new fractal CMs, at least not without some change in their reward structure. The problem is CMs effectively add another fractal to the daily routine for the dedicated groups. And even if you're not *that* dedicated you're still pressured to play them in order to not fall behind on kps, meaning harder time finding a group in the future. So I expect ANet to be quite conservative here, maybe not even add another CM in the upcoming months until they figure out what exactly they want to do there.

>

> Furthermore, even if they did, they still wouldn't quite make the same level of content as raids. The 10-man format simply gives them greater freedom to create interesting mechanics due to the sheer fact you have twice as many people you can task with stuff.

 

Oh I’m well aware, they said they’d only make CMs for special fractals, and frankly the Wizard Tower in all of its mystery since GW1 is about as special as it gets if it ends up as a fractal imo.

 

I fully agree that a raid would be much easier for them to do it justice in, but I don’t think a fractal would be undoable, it would just require more effort.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> >

> > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

>

> Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

 

Its all subjective. Speaking factually like this is nonsensical.

 

I mean, mechanically and maybe even difficulty wise I wouldnt mind a raid. But searching for a static group (who arent my current friends) while having an irregular life or needing to try multiple times because of cooperation and mistakes making it necessary to train and repeat more than Im comfortable doing on top of that, makes a very bad experience, and then Im not even talking about the lack of storydepth within raids.

 

I would even rather have a solo experience at raid difficulty than a raid at this point.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> > > >

> > > > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

> > >

> > > Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

> >

> > I'd challenge the idea that something being "epic" means "10 man instance" but hey, might be a different understanding of what "epic" means.

>

> It's not about the number of players in the instance, it's about the challenge. That's the big problem with the story instances - we fight Balthazar, but the fight isn't really hard, a rando White Mantle zealot abusing bloodstone feels much more dangerous and because of that much more of an accomplishment when defeated. And it should be clear that they will never do anything remotely as challenging as a raid boss outside of a raid, except maybe in fractal CMs. So if you want a cool story - sure, it can be wherever. Probably best in the personal story, as the other instances tend to be paced shorter. But if you want an epic fight, nothing will come close to a raid boss, sorry.

 

So yeah, a difference in understand of what it means to be epic, then.

 

You think that it's the challenge, getting 9 other people to learn the latest dance around a boss.

 

For me, it's about a heroic and grand tale, the Balthazar fight was epic because of the context, you're fighting a god that threatened to destroy the entire world, fighting an impossible battle against an impossible foe. The sheer desperation of the fight made it feel epic.

 

For me, it wouldn't have been any more epic if he had a hundred times the hit points and you needed 9 other people and the aoe was deadlier and Balthazar had more phases. That's not adding more to the sense that you're involved in anything epic. There's nothing particularly epic about Frank needing to go to the bathroom after the next attempt.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > With all honesty, the coolest thing they can do is a raid.

> > > > >

> > > > > No. Just ... no. They can do better than that, and it's past time that we expect better.

> > > >

> > > > Actually they can't. Nothing will feel even remotely as epic.

> > >

> > > I'd challenge the idea that something being "epic" means "10 man instance" but hey, might be a different understanding of what "epic" means.

> >

> > It's not about the number of players in the instance, it's about the challenge. That's the big problem with the story instances - we fight Balthazar, but the fight isn't really hard, a rando White Mantle zealot abusing bloodstone feels much more dangerous and because of that much more of an accomplishment when defeated. And it should be clear that they will never do anything remotely as challenging as a raid boss outside of a raid, except maybe in fractal CMs. So if you want a cool story - sure, it can be wherever. Probably best in the personal story, as the other instances tend to be paced shorter. But if you want an epic fight, nothing will come close to a raid boss, sorry.

>

> So yeah, a difference in understand of what it means to be epic, then.

>

> You think that it's the challenge, getting 9 other people to learn the latest dance around a boss.

>

> For me, it's about a heroic and grand tale, the Balthazar fight was epic because of the context, you're fighting a god that threatened to destroy the entire world, fighting an impossible battle against an impossible foe. The sheer desperation of the fight made it feel epic.

>

> For me, it wouldn't have been any more epic if he had a hundred times the hit points and you needed 9 other people and the aoe was deadlier and Balthazar had more phases. That's not adding more to the sense that you're involved in anything epic. There's nothing particularly epic about Frank needing to go to the bathroom after the next attempt.

 

The problem with this epic tale is breaking the immersion. Fighting an impossible battle? He could barely even touch me the entire fight. It didn't *feel* impossible. It knew it was supposed to be, but it just didn't feel like it. It utterly failed to convince me. I appreciate the story. I really do. But I remember it as I remember a story that happened in a movie I watched. And it is a pity, because games can give so much more than that. I *still* remember the feeling of euphoria and accomplishment that followed my very first VG kill, almost two years ago. As I'm sure I'll remember the feelings of euphoria and accomplishment that followed my recent first Dhuum CM kill. These are much more personal, much more immersive and feel much grander, because this time? The odds did indeed feel impossible. It was bloody *difficult*, it required a lot of focus and involved a lot of struggle. All elements directly related to difficulty and missing in the grand tale in question.

[Blaeys.3102]

Integrated - or even interesting - story aligned with any game lore in GW2 raids is a tricky topic.

 

Part of the problem is expectations based on other, more raid-centric MMOs, where raids are often integral to the plot or tell interesting "side" stories that fit with the lore. Those games can get away with that because, in practically every case, they include some way to account for varying player skill and playstyles (things like gear/level treadmills or multiple difficulty modes).

 

GW2 doesn't have any of those elements, and - unfortunately, likely never will (multiple modes, I mean - treadmills definitely don't belong in GW2). The resources needed to add these things to raids currently do not exist and are unlikely to manifest in the near future, given that the Living Story team is also seemingly shorthanded (based on their admission that the last LS chapter was late and incomplete). This leaves us with the current lacking nature of raids, which - by the developers' own words - are designed semi exclusively for a small subset of GW2 players.

 

With that in mind, there is simply no place for compelling lore focused or integrated story in GW2 raids. It only creates an anti-casual perception that goes against what GW2 has always been. I - and many others - think they have already crossed the line of what is acceptable with the Saul Dalessio and Bloodstone explosion storylines. We made that clear to Bobby Stein, one of the lead writers, in the old forum - and he seemed to at least understand a little (and, in fairness, the last raid seems to be better about avoiding major ties to the rest of the game).

 

As it is, raids feel shoehorned into the game and out of place for many players. The developers don't have the resources to properly fix that, meaning they will continue to feel like a separate game altogether. Adding interesting lore focused story elements would only serve to shine a light on the divide they create in the community and - as I am sure Anet is fully aware by now - not be good for the game in any way. The Wizard's Tower is only one example of content that shouldn't be used in raids.