Nimon.7840 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Nimon.7840" I'm going to be honest, I really don't know who you are so when you say X build is bad and you don't link to your build I really don't have a comparison point. I linked to my source of builds, common courtesy would be for you to link to your source too and not assume that everyone has seen and looked your build over. And sure, anyone can post a build to metabattle but that has no bearing on if it's good or bad. The build is still judged by members of the community there so if you post a bad build other people will say as much. Saying that a build is bad because it's on metabattle is disingenuous. I am attempting to have an honest, fact-driven, conversation that moves beyond just people saying Necromancer is bad because .... reasons. As for selfish builds, that's removed from what I'm discussing which is "is Necromancer really the worst profession, especially when compared to Revenant" A selfish build does not mean it's a bad build. And honestly, I'm not sure why you are suggesting I would be disappointed about anything since I'm not really talking about what I personally play in that regard. I am specifically talking about if the profession is good or bad and whether or not DPS is the best way to determine that. Given the fact that Scourge is still a popular build to play I'm hard pressed to consider it bad due to it not having the best DPS in the game. And while yes, a good commander can counter a Scourge build the same can be said for pretty much any build in the game. No profession, no build, wins 100% of the time. Good commanders will point out all the dangerous targets, such as Mirage and Scourge. The ability of a commander to counter it has no bearing on if it is good or bad since all builds can be countered. Guilds hiding builds also doesn't help the case that Necromancers are bad. If guilds are hiding Scourge builds then they must have a good one as there is no point in hidding bad builds. I'm also not sure why you are claiming I'm too lazy to unlock Scourge. A. unlocking it is not a sign of laziness but a sign of interest or disinterest and B. I already stated that I unlocked Scourge when I pointed out that I play Reaper more. You seemed to miss what I had said, which was that people don't take the time to unlock a specialization if there is no payoff for it. It being easy is not enough for most people to put in that time and effort. > @"SidewayS.3789" said: > @Dace, dude we are talking about PvE not WvW, in case you didnt saw that. In PvE Necro brings next to zero as "support" and crap DPS and its outgunned from all the spots in high end game content. So pls stop posting "buuut scourge is awesome" yeah maybe in WvW,but we are talking about PvE. I never said Scourge is awesome. I stated that Necromancer is not bad and that people have not provided real evidence to support their claim. DPS is a horrible measure to determine if it is good or bad as the mere fact that other professions aside from staff Ele get used undermines the logic that DPS determines if it is good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? Pve-view: Cons: -Lacks DPS (for raids) -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) -No real mobility -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) -Weak to cc -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) -delay on class mechanic Pros: -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) -healthy amount of cc -can remove conditions from allies Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) Pros: -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges - can remove conditions from allies - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) -healthpool -ae dmg Cons: -no mobility -No blocks -no evades other than the two dodges - no invincibility - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) - Long casttimes on most of the skills - weak to long range attacks - weak to cc - delay on class mechanic Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > Pve-view: > Cons: > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > -No real mobility > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > -Weak to cc > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > -delay on class mechanic > > Pros: > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > -healthy amount of cc > -can remove conditions from allies > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > Pros: > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > - can remove conditions from allies > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > -healthpool > -ae dmg > > Cons: > -no mobility > -No blocks > -no evades other than the two dodges > - no invincibility > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > - weak to long range attacks > - weak to cc > - delay on class mechanic > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > Pve-view: > > Cons: > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > -No real mobility > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > -Weak to cc > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > Pros: > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > -healthy amount of cc > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > Pros: > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > - can remove conditions from allies > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > -healthpool > > -ae dmg > > > > Cons: > > -no mobility > > -No blocks > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > - no invincibility > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > - weak to long range attacks > > - weak to cc > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. Not playing that shitty gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. But guess what. It's not. So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . Second health at is bullshit argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. And i really think they should patch out minions. The big reason: remove afk farm from necro Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. Zero necros in raids is bullshit. But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. 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Vayne.8563 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > Cons: > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > -No real mobility > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > -Weak to cc > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > Pros: > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > Pros: > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > -healthpool > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > Cons: > > > -no mobility > > > -No blocks > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > - no invincibility > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > - weak to cc > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > But guess what. It's not. > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > And i really think they should patch out minions. > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > No, not every class is. And difficulty means that they are less consistent with their damage. Which a good scourge? Sure its consistent. A not good one? Nope. And its not user friendly either. A mess up on the condi rotation means 50-100% of your health worth in damage. > > > > And the shroud as a mechanic needs to be overhauled. I've been saying it for years. About half a decade now... Oh god its been half a decade... > > Im sorry i dont see your point, Scourge rotation is not that complex, you dont have to juke with conjures or kits and you make weapon swap with the same weapons, you must make sure that you use your coodlowns with the correct priority. I mean, i believe any user that messes with their rotation will lose damage, and that doesnt even apply only to scourge. I didn't mention how they lose damage. I said they lose their own health. Big difference. Our rotation requires us to use corruptions which depending on the corruption used this can be a little bit of health to all of your health. BiP does 100% of your health in damage to yourself. Just last night I did 30% of damage to myself because I missed a transfer. And if no condition cleans is available at the time then I have to use life force to convert those conditions which harms my rotation. Messing up on a rotation is one thing. But damaging your future rotation and potentially killing yourself is a whole other thing. I'm not complaining about that, but I am pointing out that this should have a stronger reward for such a risky way of playing dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diak Atoli.2085 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Since raiding benchmarks are the 'be all, end all' (/snark), here's a question. The common Necromancer benchmarks for both power and condition builds is about 28,000 DPS, when properly supported. With that in mind, which raid encounters is a group of Necromancers mechanically incapable of completing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrother.1340 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > Cons: > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > -No real mobility > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > Pros: > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > -healthpool > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > -no mobility > > > > -No blocks > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > - no invincibility > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > - weak to cc > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > But guess what. It's not. > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > Since raiding benchmarks are the 'be all, end all' (/snark), here's a question. > > The common Necromancer benchmarks for both power and condition builds is about 28,000 DPS, when properly supported. > > With that in mind, which raid encounters is a group of Necromancers mechanically incapable of completing? Any raid with a pug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diak Atoli.2085 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > > Since raiding benchmarks are the 'be all, end all' (/snark), here's a question. > > > > The common Necromancer benchmarks for both power and condition builds is about 28,000 DPS, when properly supported. > > > > With that in mind, which raid encounters is a group of Necromancers mechanically incapable of completing? > > Any raid with a pug A non-answer that can be applied to any of the nine professions. So, I'll ask again. Which raid encounters are mechanically impossible for Necromancer-only DPS to complete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > > > Since raiding benchmarks are the 'be all, end all' (/snark), here's a question. > > > > > > The common Necromancer benchmarks for both power and condition builds is about 28,000 DPS, when properly supported. > > > > > > With that in mind, which raid encounters is a group of Necromancers mechanically incapable of completing? > > > > Any raid with a pug > > A non-answer that can be applied to any of the nine professions. So, I'll ask again. > > Which raid encounters are mechanically impossible for Necromancer-only DPS to complete? Kc, gors no updraft, mat especially when doing with pugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > I agree, I think there are things that Necromancer does well. ANet clearly agrees based on their most recent patch and the non Necomancer players seem to stand in > > agreement that Necromancer does do some things well. > > So what does Necro do well then, that is unique to Necro. What does that have to do with absolutely ANYTHING? This is the biggest fallacy going. A class can't be good if it doesn't do ONE thing better than any other? That's silly. > > > I think it's silly to deny that Scourge wasn't a strong build on some level. Maybe it doesn't push out the most DPS (I wouldn't know how well it does there since I tend to play Reaper) but it brought enough to the table that it was one of the most common builds to see from a defending group in WvW. I think one of the flaws here is equating DPS to good. There seem to be other factors such as how well it plays in a team, boon conversion, condi cleanse etc etc. Or rather there should be other factors we should be discussing. > > DPS is ranked. You test all the professions. Playing optimally and then measured. They are organized by numeric value by Damage Output over Time. > > But by your explanation DPS numbers shouldn't be valued strictly numerically based upon unique aspects of what each Profession/Elite Spec brings. > > What does the Necro bring that is unique among other Professions that is valued enough to warrant a drop in DPS. > > Don't get me wrong, i do believe Scourge was strong in WvW, but at this point Necro itself in my opinion, does bring anything unique. Its just an under preforming ranged AoE spec. I'd take a Staff weaver or Mesmer in its place atm. > DPS is ranked ... BY PLAYERS for SPECIFIC game modes. That means it's biased and limited in value as a measure of a class. Furthermore, it's important to point out that damage, as a measure of success, is almost none existent in this game. DPS is a PLAYER-IMPOSED limitation. Even in the only game mode where DPS matters, the threshold to be successful is large, so large that there is no justifiable reason to deny any class a spot in a raid team. And while DPS is justifiably offset by other things, those things do not have to be unique to the class, nor is the value of those things less if other classes can do them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > Cons: > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > Pros: > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 I'd be happy with between 29 and under 31 with blood magic and between 32-34 with soul reaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > I didn't mention how they lose damage. I said they lose their own health. Big difference. Our rotation requires us to use corruptions which depending on the corruption used this can be a little bit of health to all of your health. BiP does 100% of your health in damage to yourself. Just last night I did 30% of damage to myself because I missed a transfer. And if no condition cleans is available at the time then I have to use life force to convert those conditions which harms my rotation. Messing up on a rotation is one thing. But damaging your future rotation and potentially killing yourself is a whole other thing. I'm not complaining about that, but I am pointing out that this should have a stronger reward for such a risky way of playing dps. I see now, sorry, was just bad comprehension from me But i never had problems with my corruptions, even using master of corruption trait, like yes, with plague sending i can transfer them every time i use sand shroud with no problem, and i have enough life force to use sand shroud and nefarious favor to cleanse conditons from myself. But yes, sometimes is just annoying and some fights just end with half of my hp gone, i dont like the last change that they did to blood is power, with 2 charges and half the might generation, because you get double the conditions. Usually i run with blood fiend to have a passive heal generation, sad that blood fiend attacks doesnt scale with healing power. Now, why corruptions have to put conditions on yourself? or maybe master of corruption should be reworked? because like every trait of utility skill on every class gives you a benefit, like "your shouts have reduced recharge "or "your traps have increased effects", etc... they give you positive effects, corruptions are the only utility skills which have a trait that gives you a positive effect, reduce recharge but also a negative effect, you suffer more conditions. While i accept that the cd reduction is big (33%), corruption skills dont have big cooldowns to justify that the trait must punish us with more conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > What does that have to do with absolutely ANYTHING? This is the biggest fallacy going. A class can't be good if it doesn't do ONE thing better than any other? That's silly. And what fallacy are you referring too? Why are Chronomancers and Druids so highly valued then? Because they provide singularly unique aspects to group play by virtue of their profession. Chronomancers provide near permanent uptime on Quickness and Alacrity. Druids provided unparalleled healing party wide. Banner Warriors provide a party wide buff completely separate to boons. Simply put, if there isnt something unique to distinguish one profession from another then effectiveness of their commonly shared metrics will be used to rank them. > DPS is ranked ... BY PLAYERS for SPECIFIC game modes. That means it's biased and limited in value as a measure of a class. Furthermore, it's important to point out that damage, as a measure of success, is almost none existent in this game. DPS is a PLAYER-IMPOSED limitation. Even in the only game mode where DPS matters, the threshold to be successful is large, so large that there is no justifiable reason to deny any class a spot in a raid team. Yes it is ranked by Players. Players also create the meta. Yes there is a large margin by what is acceptable in order to be successful. But DPS isnt a imposed limitation, its a understanding that certain classes can be played to a achieve a higher degree of effectiveness then others. But when a meta is developed that accurately improves success rates based on (insert profession/gear/utility choice/build here) then that will be used. If your Staff Weaver is 1.5x the DPS of your scourge hes literally worth a Scourge (or whatever class) and a half. It comes down to efficiency, effectiveness, and minimization of the possibility of failure. If youre a god-like Scourge, never dies in raids, and puts forth the maximum damage you can possible output in a boss fight, good on you. But the argument could be made that your skill would be even more valued if you played on a profession that allowed the limits of your other profession to be surpassed. Why do you think Raid builds exist. Why do you think people use Berserker Gear when they want to play Power. Why dont they equip Berserker Gear and play Condi? > And while DPS is justifiably offset by other things, those things do not have to be unique to the class, nor is the value of those things less if other classes can do them too. Yes they do have to be unique. If Chronomancer buffing capabilities wasn't unique to Chronomancers then they wouldn't valued as highly as they are. If a scourge brings nothing unique to the table and i was given the option to fill my last spot reserved for DPS by either a Scourge or Staff Weaver. Currently i would choose the Weaver. In your mind you probably complain about this "Profession Elitism" but this "Elitism" isn't because people hate Scourges, they just aren't as effective as other professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > What does that have to do with absolutely ANYTHING? This is the biggest fallacy going. A class can't be good if it doesn't do ONE thing better than any other? That's silly. > > And what fallacy are you referring too? You're correct, it's not a fallacy that you need to be able to do one thing the best to be of value to a team ... it's just a false statement. Thanks for the correction. No, a class does not need strong AND unique skills to be of value. You can do a simple though experiment to see the truth in that ... or you can just make bad correlations, be a meta pusher and restrict yourself to playing with a very small percent of the people that think like you do. Or you can simply play the game to see that's not true because if it was true, then there would be only a few comps capable of doing raid content and they would only include the classes that had the unique, strongest skills. Lucky for us, that's not true and we have lots of ways to do content, inline with how the devs intended people to play how they want. The problem with the way you (and other meta people) think is that you don't consider the risk. You have come to the conclusion that something is best because it does it in the best way possible, like your uniquely-skill class example. It doesn't occur to you that there is a large range of risk. In otherwords, yes you can do it with the most optimal comp possible, but the risk is way higher (as you can see when you PUG vs. preset team) if you do that. The best part is that you can complete the content with lower risk comps (and not use uniquely-skilled classes to do it) because the threshold for success in raids is low enough that there is no practical reason to shove meta in people's faces to be successful. It's the same thing we 5 years ago with dungeons ... yes, it's more efficient to speedrun a dungeon with specific, uniquely-skilled classes ... but the risk profile is the highest it can be if you do that. SO back to the point ... if you don't recognize the value of a class, even if it doesn't bring some uniquely valuable skill to the team, that's just a lack of awareness. It's not a game limitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > No, a class does NOT need strong AND unique skills to be of value. You can do a simple though experiment to see the truth in that. Lol what Thought* Experiment are you referring too. If 2 Staff Weavers can achieve the damage output of 3 scourges. Thats spot in my group is a spot i can save for another class or friend. Your complaining about a meta. > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. Ah yes the old. "Find better/nicer players to play with, Screw the Meta argument" That fallacy is called the Appeal to Emotion fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > Why is being at the bottom judged by DPS? There are other aspects that are important to things like Raids, PvP, and WvW aside from pure DPS. If DPS was all that mattered then honestly the only profession being played would be Elementalist as last I checked they were still the kings and queens of DPS. Also, not every profession is difficult to use. Some are insanely easy and straightforward. > > > > Because the Necromancer has nothing else to supply. Druids bring healing, spirits, Spotter, and Might for the party, Warriors bring banners and Empower Allies, Revenants bring Assassin's Presence, Resistance, and Herald buffs, Chronos bring Quickness, Alacrity, and boon sharing, Guardians bring party-wide blocks, Stability, and more Quickness. Engineers, Thieves, and Necromancers only bring damage to a good party. > > > > Yes, Necromancer does well as training wheels with a Transfusion support setup, but once party members stop going down, its usefulness takes a nosedive off a cliff. Engineers and Thieves can at least compete on the damage front with the Warriors, Revenants, and Guardians. Necromancer can't. > > > > "But Vampiric Aura" No. I'm going to stop you right there. Assuming that you got Vampiric Aura to apply on every hit, it would _still_ increase damage by less than Empower Allies does (as Empower Allies works with damage increases and crits). But you won't get it to apply to every hit, because Vampiric Aura foolishly has an ICD! And the healing on it? Unecessary, as the Druid every raid comp takes anyway covers healing needs just fine. > > Well, if it has nothing else to supply then why is it still popular in WvW? Are those people just making bad play choices? All of them? Also, I was never going to bring up Vampiric Aura. Vampiric Aura actually has nothing to do with anything I have said up to this point. AOE Boon removal. Necros have a lot of it. It's also totally worthless in PvE, meaning that bit of value people want Necros for in WvW isn't helping its situation with low damage. When Scourge came out, it was also for AoE barrier application primarily, with condition output secondary. Barrier, once again, doesn't mean much in PvE when a good group doesn't get low on health thanks to the Druid. A lot of this is the massive difference in enemy damage-to-health ratios in PvP and WvW compared to PvE. Even a Nomad's geared Chrono has a damage-to-health ratio several times that of most raid bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > I agree, I think there are things that Necromancer does well. ANet clearly agrees based on their most recent patch and the non Necomancer players seem to stand in > > > agreement that Necromancer does do some things well. > > > > So what does Necro do well then, that is unique to Necro. > > What does that have to do with absolutely ANYTHING? This is the biggest fallacy going. A class can't be good if it doesn't do ONE thing better than any other? That's silly. Pretty much everything. If a class does nothing better than anyone else, and brings nothing unique, why bring it along? Every class should have its area where they are flat-out better than everyone else at it. This doesn't need to be damage (although good luck trying to tell an Ele that), but if a class has nothing to offer over everyone else, there's no reason to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Your complaining about a meta. I sure am, because we have 6 years of game experience to say it's not a necessary way to play the game and be successful. There are so many ways to do things in this game that it's ridiculous to conclude a class has no value in a raid because it doesn't bring some unique skill to the team. That's just nonsense. > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > I agree, I think there are things that Necromancer does well. ANet clearly agrees based on their most recent patch and the non Necomancer players seem to stand in > > > > agreement that Necromancer does do some things well. > > > > > > So what does Necro do well then, that is unique to Necro. > > > > What does that have to do with absolutely ANYTHING? This is the biggest fallacy going. A class can't be good if it doesn't do ONE thing better than any other? That's silly. > > Pretty much everything. If a class does nothing better than anyone else, and brings nothing unique, why bring it along? Every class should have its area where they are flat-out better than everyone else at it. This doesn't need to be damage (although good luck trying to tell an Ele that), but if a class has nothing to offer over everyone else, there's no reason to have it. That makes no sense. You don't need to have unique skills to join a team and be successful as a team in this game. That's just self-imposed ideology. What you say would be true if your rewards scaled with performance ... but in this game they don't. I mean, hey, if you want to restrict yourself to ideal comps in raids because you think classes need unique value to bring to teams, that's fine but it's just a false statement to say you NEED that unique value for raiding. The proof is just the fact that people raid all the time with a wide variety of comps that include all kinds of different classes. I'm really at a loss to think that 6 years in, we still have people who push the meta and take almost no consideration of the skill the players bring to the team. This game has NEVER limited success to groups by disregarding the player skill ... yet meta pushers talk like it happens all the time, trying to convince people there is a specific way to play. Just let it go already. There are LOTS of way to play. You aren't forced into any specific approach ... except by people that think like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: Make a new post. Constantly editing your own post to retract your statements is a little annoying. > Or you can simply play the game to see that's not true because if it was true, then there would be only a few comps capable of doing raid content and they would only include the classes that had the unique, strongest skills. Lucky for us, that's not true and we have lots of ways to do content, inline with how the devs intended people to play how they want. I never said Scourges or "X" profession was unilaterally banned from participating in raids. But if someone is specifically calling for a weaver or "X" profession can they really be blamed or scolded when those professions prove themselves more valuable. I dont think so. Its why Metas are created. Can you achieve success with a Non-meta comp or profession. Of course you can. But if your group is failing, lets say at a boss, and the dps is lacking because certain players can keep up with the dps of others or are just dying and being Boat Anchors do you blame the leader for making the decision of dropping the dead weight in order to accomplish the task and adding in players that do carry their weight? > The problem with the way you (and other meta people) think is that you don't consider the risk. You have come to the conclusion that something is best because it does it in the best way possible, like your uniquely-skill class example. It doesn't occur to you that there is a large range of risk. In otherwords, yes you can do it with the most optimal comp possible, but the risk is way higher (as you can see when you PUG vs. preset team) if you do that. The best part is that you can complete the content with lower risk comps (and not use uniquely-skilled classes to do it) because the threshold for success in raids is low enough that there is no practical reason to shove meta in people's faces to be successful. It's the same thing we 5 years ago with dungeons ... yes, it's more efficient to speedrun a dungeon with specific, uniquely-skilled classes ... but the risk profile is the highest it can be if you do that. The funny thing is, i dont even raid, i dont even do T4 Fractals. So this "way" i think is only born of the understanding and desire to optimize. To achieve the best possible results. Something usually is regarded as the best if it does something the best. Hence the Term "best". What is a lower risk comp? compared to what? A higher risk comp? A higher risk comp by definition is a comp that has a statistically lower chance of success. While Lower risk comp would be one of higher chance of success. To achieve that higher chance of success. You optimize. The "Risk Profile" of a speedrun is completely separate of the "Risk Profile" of simply accomplishing the dungeon without wiping. If i can play a weaver 1 handed, clicking my skills, and get higher dps then a scourge whose playing his heart out cancel-casting his spells to reduce downtime. What do you think the end result will be for the Weaver vs Scourge in the general playerbase for desirability. > SO back to the point ... if you don't recognize the value of a class, even if it doesn't bring some uniquely valuable skill to the team, that's just a lack of awareness. It's not a game limitation. I do recognize the value of a class. I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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