Do you think Elementalist class "balancing" is justified?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

> @"Bearbrunt.4196" said:

> While I don't want ele dps "buried," I think the changes were justified. I'm all for closing the longstanding damage gaps between overperforming/underperforming classes and leveling out the playing field (for _all_ classes).

>

> In some past cases, ele has been able to pull up to 50% more dps than the most underperforming class. While a reasonable argument can be made for ele to do more damage than other classes, I don't think it can be given as much credence when they've for so long, easily been able to outperform other classes by a such a huge margin. At times (and even now, looking at the numbers post nerf) they're able to consistently pull 25-40% more damage than other underperforming classes/builds.

>

> Ele (and a couple other classes) have had too much damage potential for a long time. Either that, or underperforming classes have had far too little damage potential. Honestly, I think there is too much damage in the game to begin with, so I'm all for scaling the top-end back (not just eles).

>

> For the record, I really don't think this poll is going to be impartial, since the majority of the users that browse this section of the forum are ele goons.

 

 

what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

 

Seriously? If you don't want ele be top dps by a margin, fine. But then give us all the nice stuff the other classes have ele is lacking.

 

That would be 'balancing'.

 

But as long as mirages can hit you for 24k out of nowhere and deadeyes have their permastealth 15k attacks, you can hardly complain about ele dps being too high.

 

In fact, these two classes give you all the reason why a single ms hit should take out any mirage, thief or necro in the field.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

>

> what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

 

Fun facts:

- Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

- Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

- Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

 

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> >

> > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

>

> Fun facts:

> - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

>

 

Your an idiot.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > >

> > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> >

> > Fun facts:

> > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> >

>

> Your an idiot.

 

I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> >

> > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

>

> Fun facts:

> - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

>

 

I will give you the same challenge I posted to someone else above:

Take any "meta" DPS build and make ZERO changes to it and go fight Istari (the first boss of episode 3) it takes 3 minutes to get to her with a new character.

Tell me the results. If you record it on youtube/twitch/whatever even better.

 

I think we all know the answer, and that is Weaver would be the simply hardest to beat that boss, if at all, using only the "meta" build. Meanwhile, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Scourge, Holosmith and Renegade I found it cheap to win (those are professions I tried), there was literally no trouble at all, using simply the meta dps build. I might be a bad Weaver, or really good at all those others, but I doubt it.

 

The argument "Elementalist is at the top of the DPS, it needs to do lower DPS so other builds can shine" is ridiculous considering surviving as an Elementalist is ages harder than with anything else. And it shows clearly when you are alone, fighting story bosses. But yes let's nerf Elementalists at the one and only thing they can do, now we'll have easy to play, easy to survive builds also do the highest DPS. Really fun times.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > >

> > > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> > >

> > > Fun facts:

> > > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> > >

> >

> > Your an idiot.

>

> I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

 

Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

 

If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

 

Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > >

> > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> >

> > Fun facts:

> > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> >

>

> I will give you the same challenge I posted to someone else above:

> Take any "meta" DPS build and make ZERO changes to it and go fight Istari (the first boss of episode 3) it takes 3 minutes to get to her with a new character.

> Tell me the results. If you record it on youtube/twitch/whatever even better.

>

> I think we all know the answer, and that is Weaver would be the simply hardest to beat that boss, if at all, using only the "meta" build. Meanwhile, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Scourge, Holosmith and Renegade I found it cheap to win (those are professions I tried), there was literally no trouble at all, using simply the meta dps build. I might be a bad Weaver, or really good at all those others, but I doubt it.

>

> The argument "Elementalist is at the top of the DPS, it needs to do lower DPS so other builds can shine" is ridiculous considering surviving as an Elementalist is ages harder than with anything else. And it shows clearly when you are alone, fighting story bosses. But yes let's nerf Elementalists at the one and only thing they can do, now we'll have easy to play, easy to survive builds also do the highest DPS. Really fun times.

 

What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

 

Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

 

The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> > > >

> > > > Fun facts:

> > > > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > > > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > > > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Your an idiot.

> >

> > I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

>

> Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

>

> If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

>

> Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

 

You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> > > > >

> > > > > Fun facts:

> > > > > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > > > > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > > > > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Your an idiot.

> > >

> > > I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

> >

> > Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

> >

> > If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

> >

> > Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

>

> You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

 

Is that why in WvW there are no tempests and loads of Firebrands?, Again sitting on 1 point while your team is outnumbered does not help your team Druid offers more than Tempest in most Endgame content but Tempest is good on certain bosses

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

>

> Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

>

> The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

 

In other word, you think chronotank (metabuild) waste their time doing doing the story without changing their build? Same goes for druid or Bannerslave? Who's real here? Do you also expect dungeon soloer to run metabuilds? The game give us the tools to adapt to any situation, no build is meant to be set in stone. Heck! The elementalist is meant to be a flexible profession for player with flexible mind and you suggest something as rigid as a metabuild without change. This is laughable.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fun facts:

> > > > > > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > > > > > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > > > > > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Your an idiot.

> > > >

> > > > I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

> > >

> > > Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

> > >

> > > If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

> > >

> > > Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

> >

> > You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

>

> Is that why in WvW there are no tempests and loads of Firebrands?, Again sitting on 1 point while your team is outnumbered does not help your team Druid offers more than Tempest in most Endgame content but Tempest is good on certain bosses

 

Okay, first, bunkering a point have been something done since age but usually not by elementalist, I think this is what bother you. It's not an invalid role and it garantee pips at least.

Now, about, healing, note that I say "healing". Friebrand provide healing and more than anything boons. Druid is only usefull in PvE for the "extra" that he provide, the healing, in itself, is meh.

I answered someone saying that the elementalist wasn't good at anything, while in fact it is good, even very good. It's just not the best and unfortunately, there is not enough role for each profession to be be able to be the best at something.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

> >

> > Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

> >

> > The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

>

> In other word, you think chronotank (metabuild) waste their time doing doing the story without changing their build? Same goes for druid or Bannerslave? Who's real here? Do you also expect dungeon soloer to run metabuilds? The game give us the tools to adapt to any situation, no build is meant to be set in stone. Heck! The elementalist is meant to be a flexible profession for player with flexible mind and you suggest something as rigid as a metabuild without change. This is laughable.

 

I said "dps meta builds" only. With Weaver I adapt the build for solo play, which means my DPS is no longer the best anymore. With most other builds I don't have to change anything, I use the dps meta build that does the most DPS and have zero problems. All this because those other profession builds have innate defensive abilities, or even passives (health/armor). This means that the "overpowered DPS Weaver" is only such in very limited use cases, mainly static bosses in PVE while you have a big team to support you with heals and buffs, while in every other case possible this awesome DPS Weaver trails behind other builds by a huge margin. Mostly due to survivability issues. But I can understand, there are lots of people who are only looking at raw benchmark numbers and see "hey Weaver is doing too much DPS compared to other builds, let's nerf them", without a single thought about what such nerfs to Weaver would do to any other part of the game. I gave the example of Story mode bosses, but the same can be applied in PVP and WVW too. Balancing for the Raid dps benchmarks isn't a good way to go.

 

Edit: Because Raid DPS Benchmarks do not take into account survivability at all, something really important outside Raids.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

> > > > >

> > > > > Fun facts:

> > > > > - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> > > > > - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> > > > > - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Your an idiot.

> > >

> > > I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

> >

> > Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

> >

> > If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

> >

> > Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

>

> (...) Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

 

Everything PVP-wise:

 

It is just way worse than mesmer, warrior and holo in this role. And it is a lot more vulnerable to +1 situations in most scenarios. It can not contribute the damage in teamfights like the other classes. It is slightly better in mobility than holo and warrior. To fight all three, we have to use a lot of long-duration cooldowns like Twist of Fate. As soon as a thief, rev or mesmer joins to +1, we have to disengage immediately without any chance to do counterpressure if their burst fails. We are extremely vulnerable to certain classes like rev, core guard, power +1 builds.

 

There is one advantage I can think of right now compared to these three. We can stall fb+scourge at any time. But with them becoming less and less relevant, we are losing that advantage _while we are being nerfed and they get buffs_ (Rev, Holo especially).

 

Ele clearly underperforms and i hoped for some (minor) buffs. We got nerfs instead.

 

€: And before you ask, I am always playing around 1700+ in EU. With (mostly) S/D ele.

[Kaleban.9834]

Can we get some sort of class definition from ANet?

 

Something in the Profession forums/Wiki that states EXACTLY what a class is supposed to do? Because honestly, given their balance process, I can't figure it out.

 

Every yahoo that complains about Eles since forever always moans about "der DPSs" but forgets all the cons that balance it out:

 

- Low health

- Low armor

- Mediocre mobility compared to professions like Warrior, Thief and Ranger

- Large number of skills that are individually weak because of "stance dancing"

- No stealth

- No Death Shroud

- Low number of blocks/invulns

- High CDs on almost all utility skills

- Poorly designed traits that do not synergize well

- No weapon swap, locking Eles in at a single range

- Necessity of choosing ALL offense or ALL defense, when every other profession gets both

- And now, horribly nerfed damage to "normalize" Ele DPS, with no normalizing of survivability

[Sahfur.5612]

No. We already had a water 2 nerf that wasn't necessary not long ago but now dual attuning does nothing due to the massive nerf to the trait for healing, as well as screwed our ability to stack swiftness so we could actually get anywhere.. ever... Biggest unjustified wvw nerf I've seen a class get for a while, and one of the biggest nerfs period since warrior got its infinite dodges taken away.. and warrior actually needed it. I was a warrior main at the time so don't call me biased. It was alot of clears we just lost and so going into crowds that have any condis up is much harder. That 1v3 became much, much harder than it is on other classes now.

 

This change was so bad, one that gets rid of one of the largest reasons to use weaver (dual attune) and was sort of the whole point.. that I think arenanet balance team now has no grasp of their games balance and am going to stop encouraging friends to play for the foreseeable future and withdraw all monetary support - This is just the kind of a balance change that spells doom. When stuff like this starts happening, it is bad news.

[Guizao.4167]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> >

> > what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

>

> Fun facts:

> - Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

> - Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

> - Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

>

 

This is wrong, you should have written this way:

 

False facts:

- Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.

- Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.

- Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

 

Which game mode are you considering? [answer this first before proceeding]

 

**True facts:**

- Elementalists condition damage builds barely outdps guardian's since we have access to burning and bleeding. In the PvP scenario, mesmers' , guardians' and necros' condition builds performs exquisitely well compared to elementalists'.

- Elementalists healing power builds don't overperform druids' and firebrands', in any game mode.

- Elementalists can't be hard to kill even when it's built to be tanky because some of our traits have been nerfed a long time ago and besides that, if an elementalist is built to be tanky, it won't bring much to the table because the profession lacks easy access to hard CC skills and is hard dependent on self-healing, whereas warriors can be much more durable (Rousing Resilience) while maintaining considerable damage and hard CC. (hammer/physical warriors say hello!)

[TheQuickFox.3826]

No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

[tekfan.3179]

The nerf is utter crap.

The lowest hp-pool of the scholars, lowest armor-rating, long cast-times and skills that root you to the ground.

A class that's hard to master but rewarding once you do...wasn't this how an Anet-dev once described their vision of the ele? How is that rewarding?

Same with the condi-engi. Run complex rotations to make just as much damage as everyone else on a dps-build?

Guardian meta dps is now almost as high as the weaver and the rotation is a joke compared to the weaver. I also get aegis and higher armor-ratings plus more mobility during rotations. Yeah, staff-weaver has higher range, but in order to get the neccessary boons, buffs and healing you need to stack on the boss either way.

[Xyonon.3987]

I have to be fair here and say yes, a nerf for Weaver was needed. However I also have to say **NO it's NOT PERFECT** at all.

 

That the optimal weaver rotation no longer attunes to air is saddening. It's far more interesting to swap to multiple attunements than just fire fire earth repeat. Maybe they should give the lightning storm a targeting system like the air overload, no diminishing returns in multi hit and make it the base power skill, while fire storm should become pure condi instead.

I also disagree with the heavy nerf on lava font. Less cd is exciting, the 40% dmg nerf tho - 20% would have justified the lesser cd.

[Titan.8215]

I've been playing ele since 2012 release, and I've lived all the nerfs along the way.

But we are on 2018 now, and I want to give my thoughts about the last nerf. Weaver was designed to be a pretty good dmg spec (this was said for a dev), they fucked up the heals and the little sustain that we had on tempest, to just go into a spec with full dmg, lacking all type of support. Weaver at launch was too high dmg, they nerfed it anyway, I think that nerf was "ok". Introducing a ICD for Meteor shower was annoying, changed it to dmg reduction per hit, was more annoying, cause you don't feel rewarded for channeling it at all, which "channeling" is hard sometimes in raid.

Weaver has a complex rotation and if you play it at high skill you get high rewards (not now, before nerf), yeah, its have a lots of burst, but most of the ppl don't keep the dmg up, and a lot of them ends the battles with mediocre dps (here is the difference between normal weaver / good weaver)

It's a spec without cc, no survivability, cloth + min. HP, almost all enemies npc just kill you from 1-2 hits, also it's have some channeling skills like MS that requires to stay on site casting them. I don't understand the nerfs. I think weaver was "fine" after the last nerf with meteor shower reduction dmg, it was still strong on huge hitboxes, but on small wasn't the best choice. I've seen other classes doing almost the same dps, with an easiest rotation.

I like elementalist/tempest/weaver since launch, but the nerfs are just to dissapoint. No justification, no buffs to other weapons (sword its bad, and going full melee with full glass canon class without some kind of survivability isn't a good idea).

Instead of all of this, they buffed thief, with a stupid rotation, which spamming 1 button most of the rotation, you get 38-39k easy, while doing hard rotation on weaver, bring you to 33k on small/38k on huge (also golem isn't raid or fractal where you can stay free casting, so dps will be lower).

 

Sorry for the big text and sorry if some of you don't agree, but I just think that we got injustificated nerfs for weaver, and I love this game, but killing my class it's just make me sad and with no gains to still playing till they revert the fun, or at least give weaver the love it need.

I'm tired of this balance team, no justifications, no speak with community, only partners have access to test-realm (and most of them have 0 idea in raid/fractals terms) so they just balance on his way, with no feedback. And now we have to wait for others 3 months to another patch in which probably we'll get another nerfs for weaver.

 

Sorry for my english. Good day.

[BlackBeard.2873]

This is another case of "golem balance" going on all over these changes, and it really goes to show that the only balance work done was in the safe vacuum of developer vs. immobile golem. They didn't even have the sense to test on a moving golem, while also committing some terrible changes that directly contradict past directions.

 

The good:

- Front-loading some of the damage from lava font

 

The bad:

- Stealth nerf to ele attunement: now double attuning gets you a MASSIVE 1 boon over 10s...in other words....NEVER double-attune.

- Elements of Rage: they previously updated all traits that converted a defensive trait into an offensive one...and now they modify this trait to turn a defensive trait into ...an offensive one....this is a terrible change that makes the trait useless. Adjust the numbers...fine, but they might as well just delete this trait now. It is like they think eles can have a build that has a ton of vitality to get ferocity, without having reliable access to fury in arcana anymore and ignoring the healing power is still more important....completely tone deaf to think some kind of high-vitality, close-range body-banger build will dominate.

- Blanket nerf to lava font damage destroying rotations of weaver (now you mostly camp fire), and nerfing non-weaver staff builds.

- The nerfs to sword targeting behind, and "buffs" to useless double-attuned skills. They still don't get that sword is an inherently flawed weapon.

 

I really don't mind if they wanted to nerf the damage of weaver. They should have done this, not by nerfing core ele skills like lava font, but by hitting those large damage modifiers stacked into weaver, and instead giving it proper traits to be a melee attacker.

 

The key problem with weaver, since its release, is that the designer never really had a clear understanding of what it was supposed to do. Weaver has all these stupidly large damage modifiers to make up for sword damage being pathetic....Get rid of the modifiers and make sword stronger. Give sword proper leaps to stick to enemies, and give eles a better conjure mechanic to deal with the fact that they are 100% range-locked. I hate running sword in general-purpose PvE, b/c it makes you useless against all the melee hate without the proper utilities to just stick there or properly pop in, dump damage, and get out (like a sword thief).

 

Oh well, enough rant for me, this game is pretty bad anyway...glad they have kept killing it more and more!

[supreme.3602]

> @"Titan.8215" said:

> I've been playing ele since 2012 release, and I've lived all the nerfs along the way.

> But we are on 2018 now, and I want to give my thoughts about the last nerf. Weaver was designed to be a pretty good dmg spec (this was said for a dev), they kitten up the heals and the little sustain that we had on tempest, to just go into a spec with full dmg, lacking all type of support. Weaver at launch was too high dmg, they nerfed it anyway, I think that nerf was "ok". Introducing a ICD for Meteor shower was annoying, changed it to dmg reduction per hit, was more annoying, cause you don't feel rewarded for channeling it at all, which "channeling" is hard sometimes in raid.

> Weaver has a complex rotation and if you play it at high skill you get high rewards (not now, before nerf), yeah, its have a lots of burst, but most of the ppl don't keep the dmg up, and a lot of them ends the battles with mediocre dps (here is the difference between normal weaver / good weaver)

> It's a spec without cc, no survivability, cloth + min. HP, almost all enemies npc just kill you from 1-2 hits, also it's have some channeling skills like MS that requires to stay on site casting them. I don't understand the nerfs. I think weaver was "fine" after the last nerf with meteor shower reduction dmg, it was still strong on huge hitboxes, but on small wasn't the best choice. I've seen other classes doing almost the same dps, with an easiest rotation.

> I like elementalist/tempest/weaver since launch, but the nerfs are just to dissapoint. No justification, no buffs to other weapons (sword its bad, and going full melee with full glass canon class without some kind of survivability isn't a good idea).

> Instead of all of this, they buffed thief, with a stupid rotation, which spamming 1 button most of the rotation, you get 38-39k easy, while doing hard rotation on weaver, bring you to 33k on small/38k on huge (also golem isn't raid or fractal where you can stay free casting, so dps will be lower).

>

> Sorry for the big text and sorry if some of you don't agree, but I just think that we got injustificated nerfs for weaver, and I love this game, but killing my class it's just make me sad and with no gains to still playing till they revert the fun, or at least give weaver the love it need.

> I'm tired of this balance team, no justifications, no speak with community, only partners have access to test-realm (and most of them have 0 idea in raid/fractals terms) so they just balance on his way, with no feedback. And now we have to wait for others 3 months to another patch in which probably we'll get another nerfs for weaver.

>

> Sorry for my english. Good day.

 

I agree with this so much. Fix your mess, developers, and read the forums for once. Some interaction wouldn’t go amiss.

 

Learn from your co-worker, Ben, who frequently interacts with forum users in the WvW section. Maybe then you’d understand the real problems this class and elite spec has, instead of nerfing it into the ground for no apparent reason.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

> @"Bearbrunt.4196" said:

> While I don't want ele dps "buried," I think the changes were justified. I'm all for closing the longstanding damage gaps between overperforming/underperforming classes and leveling out the playing field (for _all_ classes).

>

> In some past cases, ele has been able to pull up to 50% more dps than the most underperforming class. While a reasonable argument can be made for ele to do more damage than other classes, I don't think it can be given as much credence when they've for so long, easily been able to outperform other classes by a such a huge margin. At times (and even now, looking at the numbers post nerf) they're able to consistently pull 25-40% more damage than other underperforming classes/builds.

>

> Ele (and a couple other classes) have had too much damage potential for a long time. Either that, or underperforming classes have had far too little damage potential. Honestly, I think there is too much damage in the game to begin with, so I'm all for scaling the top-end back (not just eles).

>

> For the record, I really don't think this poll is going to be impartial, since the majority of the users that browse this section of the forum are ele goons.

 

The thing is that this way of thinking about the nerfs is a bit flawed. By that logic, if you feel the need that ele's damage has to be scaled down to be equal of the other professions, then the other way around works as well. Eles can say that they need to bring down the HP of a warrior (or increase the ele's) to close the gap of survivability, because at the end of the day, if you are doing the same amount of damage as a Warrior who has 15k more HP and way more armor, why take ele? Or if a thief is making several k's more DPS than you with a rotation that uses a whopping total of 3 buttons, why bother learning weaver's stupidly precise/complicated ones?

 

[Threather.9354]

Yes regarding WvW. By tuning down overall long range damage with nerfs to dhuumfire, lava fonts, CoR etc, they push WvW to what it is supposed to be; gamemode of coordination.

 

Theres no space in WvW for full damage casters that play solo anymore. Wanna kill something? Bomb with other players. Weaver was overtuned regarding damage, before PoF there was actual ranged tags where eles worked together to kill groups of enemies.

 

Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.