Do you think defensive attributes are (generally) underpowered in PvE?

[Daddicus.6128]

Whenever I ask what stats to use, the answer invariably is berserker (or a later variant) or a condition build. Nobody EVER says to take vitality or toughness, and most people actively push me away from those, when I ask.

 

To me, that loudly proclaims that toughness and vitality are way WAY underpowered.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

There's nothing wrong with them. The game just isn't hard enough to necessitate them. Let me explain:

 

In a vacuum, one of the best ways to evaluate the overall effectiveness of any stat prefix is to multiply the Effective Power by Effective Health. This is a way to express how much DPS you do per every health point you have. Because most players haven't experimented with this technique, it is a little known fact that Berserker gear has one of the lowest EP x EH products of any gear sets. Stacking all of your stat points into effective power is kind of like making a long, skinny rectangle with a finite amount of perimeter. Yes, it is tall and all geometric like, but it doesn't have that much area. If you take that same number of stats and distribute them more evenly, you'll get an overall more powerful character.

 

Soldiers Gear, to contrast, is one of the best prefixes in the game. It loads up on Power, which is the most efficient DPS stat, and gives a good balance of toughness and vitality, which compliment each other nicely. This gives it a really large EP x EH product. It is only after you factor in things like tactics, active defenses, and loot rates that Soldiers gear falls behind. Condi sets have similar behavior, where Dire is overall stronger than Viper, except that you don't need all the defenses that Dire gives for PVE content.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I find that toughness and vitality are worthless without the other stat. I mean if you aren't killing mobs fast enough that HP bonus is worthless because mobs are killing you faster without than you are them. Toughness is bad if you can mitigate damage but you can only take a limited number of hits. It trains players to focus more on damage.

 

I found that if you focus on Toughness and Vitality at the same time and get an ability that heals you based on your attacks (maybe a way to block reliably) you can face tank anything.

 

It doesn't help that there are certain attacks deal % damage so it throws everything out the window. This game is frustrating in that way.

[Eponet.4829]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> Whenever I ask what stats to use, the answer invariably is berserker (or a later variant) or a condition build. Nobody EVER says to take vitality or toughness, and most people actively push meIt away from those, when I ask.

>

> To me, that loudly proclaims that toughness and vitality are way WAY underpowered.

 

It's not exactly that they're way underpowered. A fully defensive build is actually extremely durable. It's more that baseline survivability is actually really high while baseline offense is awful. I can take a couple of hits from quite a lot of things (including raid bosses) without any kind of mitigation or defensive stats whatsoever. The tradeoff for not investing in offense is way higher than the tradeoff for not investing in defense since so much defense is free.

 

For all that people say that you don't need defense because you can avoid everything, few people actually do judging from the complaints that people made before the HoT areas got nerfed.

 

Even with zero investment into defense, people are still moderately tanky, while without any offensive investment, offense is abysmal. The way to fix it would be to reduce the baseline durability people have so that glass cannon actually means getting one shotted by moves other than the ridiculously easy to avoid ones if they get hit and don't have blocks/evade/aegis/protection. Or alternatively, reduce the effects of multiplicative scaling on crit damage/condition damage scaling and increase the base power coefficient of attacks and base condition damage

 

Enemy design is also a major part of it. Most enemies tend to attack fairly slowly, such that it's not difficult to avoid most of their attacks entirely and still have plenty of time for your own offense. Enemies that attacked at a faster rate would increase the time spent having to dodge, and stip away blinds/aegis much faster than current ones do, such that being able to withstand their frenzy of light attacks and only dodge the occasional heavy one could potentially make having some durability a more worthwhile tradeoff.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > > Yes, healing power is indeed underpowered.

> > >

> > > This is factually wrong.

> >

> > Well, it's nuanced. Different skills scale differently off of HP,

>

> That's what I meant

>

> >so some are fine, but many underscale.

>

> This i don't agree with

>

> >I think a lot of the problem area revolves around most personal healing skills not scaling well enough with HP, making it too much of a wasted stat when you aren't a dedicated group healer.

>

> Can you show me an underscaled one? Because I think most of the skills scale well enough with healing power.

>

> On the other hand, I think personal healing skills shouldn't have much scaling, because I don't think a squishy character should get back %50-60 by herself.

>

> >IMO, this is the main reason Celestial gear sucks, because the HP goes to waste as a solo player when it really shouldn't. If that wasn't the case, it would be pretty usable in a power/condi hybrid build.

>

> The main reason Celestial isn't used because there are much better stat combinations. For example, you can mix some Rabid+Magi's and be a good condition roamer. Or for expansion stats, there is Wanderer, there is Seraph, there is Marshal. Lots of better combinations than Celestial.

 

There are a number of healing skills that do underscale for no apparent reason. Predetor's cunning (Soul Beast) is one. Granted its Life steal, the only explanation why its scales so badly on both sides of the effect is that they wanted it fixed, but not to appear fixed. Theres a fringe case for a massive burst heal, but its stupidly difficult to set up intentionally. Aquatic stance in Weaver given the ICD, as it being meant as a group heal for Raids, but likely nerfed because of PvP. Virtue of Resolve (active) on Core Guard, Altruistic Healing, Healing on Zealous blade was always a bit confusing, Assassin's reward, Replenishing Despair considering its ICD, Rapid Flow, Natural Healing (Ranger), Backpack Regenerator, and Signet of the Ether. What all these skills have in common is Poor Base value and/or terrible scaling on Healing, making them not worth using in most cases, or only taken for lack of a worthwhile option. In many cases its either the over time healing being pitiful, while for some the burst potential is almost non-existent despite that being the mechanical intent of it. On Druid skills, those scale poorly, but they also have access to a ton of them.... so they still end up overhealing despite it.

 

For the most part, effects or skills not designed to be part of a stacking synergy need to have either ~300 HP per second, or burst for at least 3-5k depending on its cool down. These numbers need to become even higher in WvW due to the sheer amount of incoming damage vs the much more difficult to scale defenses.

 

As for the Celestials, its actually one of the best stat combinations in the game due to its high stat budget. The "problem" of its use revolves entirely around the state of stat scaling and the build crafts ability to make use of those stats. The more skewed into specific areas a build is, the less Celestials has to offer. Cele was king in PvP for a long time, because you had to reliably mix damage and defense unless you were intentionally going to the extremes of glass cannon or bunker. Cele was also a huge deal in WvW for the much of the same reasons, and was Front line staple for Ele and Guard; until Dagger Ele builds were dismantled at the trait level, and Firebrand made it worth going full Minstrels. For the most part, Elite specs overshadows Cele stats by damage scaling insanely fast, making it much more effective to invest in peak damage stats, and putting only the spare budget into defenses to help pad against bursts. Its no secret most Especs enable trait heavy self sustain; and all around traits are stronger then stats when it comes to defenses.

[maddoctor.2738]

In a game with so many active defenses, dodging, blocking and so on, defensive gear stats will be less useful. There is no easy way to make them more useful, and honestly in 99.9% of the game's content it would be a bad idea anyway.

[Feanor.2358]

It's not that they're underpowered, it's that they're useless. You don't need either. And you shouldn't need them either, so they're fine as they are.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's not that they're underpowered, it's that they're useless. You don't need either. And you shouldn't need them either, so they're fine as they are.

 

I mean this logic doesn't make any sense to me at all. "They're totally broken but it doesn't matter because I don't care."

 

What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

 

They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

>

> They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

 

Actually, I wouldn't entirely make that assumption. I think general PvE encounters could stand to work a bit differently.

 

> @"Eponet.4829" said:

> > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > Whenever I ask what stats to use, the answer invariably is berserker (or a later variant) or a condition build. Nobody EVER says to take vitality or toughness, and most people actively push meIt away from those, when I ask.

> >

> > To me, that loudly proclaims that toughness and vitality are way WAY underpowered.

>

> It's not exactly that they're way underpowered. A fully defensive build is actually extremely durable. It's more that baseline survivability is actually really high while baseline offense is awful. I can take a couple of hits from quite a lot of things (including raid bosses) without any kind of mitigation or defensive stats whatsoever. The tradeoff for not investing in offense is way higher than the tradeoff for not investing in defense since so much defense is free.

>

> For all that people say that you don't need defense because you can avoid everything, few people actually do judging from the complaints that people made before the HoT areas got nerfed.

>

> Even with zero investment into defense, people are still moderately tanky, while without any offensive investment, offense is abysmal. The way to fix it would be to reduce the baseline durability people have so that glass cannon actually means getting one shotted by moves other than the ridiculously easy to avoid ones if they get hit and don't have blocks/evade/aegis/protection. Or alternatively, reduce the effects of multiplicative scaling on crit damage/condition damage scaling and increase the base power coefficient of attacks and base condition damage

>

> Enemy design is also a major part of it. Most enemies tend to attack fairly slowly, such that it's not difficult to avoid most of their attacks entirely and still have plenty of time for your own offense. Enemies that attacked at a faster rate would increase the time spent having to dodge, and stip away blinds/aegis much faster than current ones do, such that being able to withstand their frenzy of light attacks and only dodge the occasional heavy one could potentially make having some durability a more worthwhile tradeoff.

 

I agree with most of these points. I think there are three things that need to be addressed:

 

- mobs should attack more frequently with weaker attacks

- access to offensive boons needs to be nerfed somewhat. There is way too large a gap between the floor and the ceiling when it comes to offense relative to defense.

- condition damage should not be as strong as it is. It has the effect of undermining the usefulness of Toughness in particular as an attribute

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

>

> They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

 

^ This. Having open world require you to use defenses would scare away the vast majority of the playerbase.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

> >

> > They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

>

> ^ This. Having open world require you to use defenses would scare away the vast majority of the playerbase.

 

It wouldn't be "required". It would just be somewhat useful.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

> > >

> > > They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

> >

> > ^ This. Having open world require you to use defenses would scare away the vast majority of the playerbase.

>

> It wouldn't be "required". It would just be somewhat useful.

 

You can't have it be "somewhat useful" in a different way than it is now - as in, it is useful when you're not familiar with the game and/or the class you're playing - without making it de facto required. *Especially* for said players unfamiliar with the game. Which, let's face it, is the majority of them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > What's the point of even having defensive attributes if the game is all about offense?

> > >

> > > They are used extensively in PVP and of course in Raids. I think we can all agree that making the rest of the game work like PVP and Raids isn't a very good idea.

> >

> > ^ This. Having open world require you to use defenses would scare away the vast majority of the playerbase.

>

> It wouldn't be "required". It would just be somewhat useful.

 

Back when the game was new, the advice that was given way too often was "use Soldier (PVT) gear". Especially common advice for dungeons. Even now, it's a very useful advice (or "use Marauder", or some other set that has defensive stats) when people complain that the expansions are too hard for them. Defensive gear IS useful already. The better you get at playing the game, the less useful defensive gear becomes, because this is an active defense game. It's simple like that.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > i think the stats in general needs a good balance, we have damage as the only way to play while any other method is removed from viable.

> > the game is made to nuke, to just do as much damage as you can without even using a single cell in your mind.

> >

> > i like to see the stats to be balance in such as way that battles need more then mindless nuking, where strategy is needed to even stand a chance and a well balanced team is required to fight champions and legendaries.

> > Anet is to blame partly for this, they make enemies solely to be nuked to death in seconds and have absolutely no threat beside being annoying.

>

> Where's the strategy in standing still and absorbing damage because a number on your armor allow you to do so?

>

 

by letting others do the damage and distract the enemy from killing the nukers, when an enemy is made to kill faster then any DPS can handle it's good to have a good tank.

[otto.5684]

I think that vitality and toughness are okay as is. I think the only change I would like to see is increase large HP pool by 1k, medium pool by 2k and small pool by 5k.

 

This brigs hp pools (which have not changed since lunch) to the power level of increase in damage.

[Ashen.2907]

Defensive stats are useful. They provide a safety net for those who have not yet mastered active defense, who prefer a more relaxed play style, or who are playing content where active defense alone is not sufficient.

 

Defensive stats do exactly what they are designed to do.

[Doggie.3184]

They are useful but PvE often doesn't really support things like that when they use the whole "DPS test" type mechanic in a lot of things where you fight against a time limit.

[Biff.5312]

I can see this being an issue in pvp, but pve? What's the problem?

[Dontfakeit.9865]

Defensive stats will always be underpowered in pve because they contribute nothing towards killing stuff faster.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i suppose it would be nice if defensive stats were more relevant - maybe only to trash mobs at first, and only in some specific areas. what I mean by that is amp up the rate of attack / number of hits and give them some decent power so trash mobs... aren't.

[Orpheal.8263]

The whole attribute System needs a rework, its completely outdated, onesided, non functional in helping to balance the game, because it completely ignores needed defensive and supportive effects that are missing, since the begin of this game 2012.

The effects of the attributes are way too maningless and to weak, provide nearly no synergy effects, unless you play with only offensive Attributes, which is why the whole attribute system as it is now, sucks, cause you are rewarded only with offensive gameplay with synergetive gameplay, while the defensive and supportivre has no synergy at all, out of the fear with them we could have "tanks" or "bunker" returning boohooooo T.T *rolleyes*

 

A good balanced game can have good defensive and supprtive synergies, without that these effects completely outplay the offensive, that battles end up in bunker wars and turtleling yourself in your defense to the point, that you become unbeatable, but deal also self no damage ...

 

People complain permanently about, that powercreep has found its way to GW due to the expansions, but is there a direct attribute based way to reduce incoming Condition Damage ? **NO**

A way based on an attribute, to reduce directly received critical damage, or to reduce the chance to receive critical hits at all ?? *NO*

 

But whyever we have all this on the offensive side of the medal... *rolleyes*, no miracle that this game could get so easily overwhelmed by powercreep, because anet never did anythign at all until today to adapt their outdated combat system elements from 2012 to bring them up to 2018er standards to make offensive gameplay with defensive gameplay equally effective.

 

Consider on top of this, that the health system is also for this game and its current state of power creep way to outdated and unbalanced with health amounts, of classes, which are still designed around a state, where no Elite Specs, where alot of Conditions and Boons , where no Revenant at all existed... it would be normal, if ANet doesn#t want to reduce the damage that all classes can dish out by like minimum 33% among all classes among all skills, that all classes woudl need to get their max health amounts at least increased by +5000 to 10000 to make battles last long enough to be better balanced and to make sure, that no class should be able to one shot kill other players.

 

Vitality is in its current form way too weak. Also Toughness too, absolutwely way too weak, you bearely can even see really an effect between havign low or high toughness in sinificantly decreasign the amount of damage you receive, it feels like having high toughness leads only in PvE that you get all the aggro, but you barely receive like only 10% lesser damage maybe, thans a player with low toughnes,s and that is RIDICULOUS. That you can get with max toughness same as easily 1 hit killed, as like a player with low toughnes,s, that you start to question yourself -.. why the **** did i put even so much points into toughnes,s when it absolutely can not in anyway save me from this **** and i can still be killed in like a second.

 

That vitality increases per point your Max Health only by laughable 10 HP is anouther thing that is ridiculous since 2012!!!

Vitality needs to increase Max Health finally MUCH MORE per Point, so that Vitality becomes finally an IMPORTANT & MEANINGFUL EFFECTIVE Attribute, that you actually really want to boost up to make your chances to survive battles significantly better, so that you definetely see a CLEAR DIFFERENCE between low and high vitality builds. A clear difference, that it would additionally also have more, if Vitality would get **merged together with Healing Power**

Think about it, you boost your boild by like +50 Vitality and that boosts gives you only laiughable + 500 HP more ... as if such silly 500 HP would make you survive in this powercreeped game anythign at all ....

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality :trollface: never seen a better joke attribute than this

 

Aggressivity (aggro) shouldnt also be bonded to Toughness... for a game like GW2 it would make much more sense to let players which deal alot of damage per second gain the most Aggro, not those, which are the most defensive .. if its really Anets intention to absolutely avoid totally the shear thoiught of this game having some kind of "tanks", then they should rework the aggro system to let enemies attack the players, which are the most aggressiv and offensive, thus meaning a real DANGER to the monsters of killing them, so that enemies naturally try on focusing killing the highest danger to them together first and not the defensive player, which barely attacks them and deals barely damage, but thats in the end an othr topic, but just wanted to mention it, as its naturally part of reworking attributes, as long aggro mechanics are tied to Toughness

 

[nsleep.7839]

They are fine and doing what they're supposed to do. It's not only in this game, but in every game when looking for optimization you only get the minimal survivability necessary while maxing damage output (not always your own, since sometimes team support means more damage overall). Defensive stats are a crutch in game modes where combat is predictable and more efficient active defensive and mitigation tools are available.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Imho the problem is **reverse** of the question asked. It's the overabundance of active god-mode defenses + too easy regular mobs that are the issue.

 

Too much active defenses means defensive stats can't be strong, else in the small windows of opportunity when a character blows all his super defenses you still couldn't get real damage in and down them. This is an issue because the rule of meta is build "200% damage and slot a defensive trait or two". I'm only glad they remembered that necro is not part of that equasion and gave him traits that can compensate him damage for chossing more tanky stat sets.

 

Other issue is mobs - only veterans (and not every one!) and up can make you actually consider using your defensive skill. Else you just build full damage and plow through mobs that fall after a fart or two from your full zerker builds.

 

Heart of Thorns deserves a praise as its mobs hit hard, tend to group up, and are not easily beaten by going full berzerker's yahoo build with 0 regard for proper defenses. You beat them by exploiting their weakness, setting up proper defenses (like projectile hate skills vs tendrills) and using tanky/damage stat sets that keep you alive far better then pure damage gear.

[Zaraki.5784]

Vitality is fine but Toughness is useless and it really needs a rework.