Joko's speech at the end of Be My Guest - are we supposed to feel bad?

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write.

 

And really, this is why I wanted a faction style alliance system or the like for Guild Wars 2, could of even done a similar thing for Joko, for the Charr/Humans, make pve and pvp content around it. I could even see an interesting faction conflict just between the Court and the Dream, explore some of those characters who preach a balance or argue the Nightmare is the only thing tough enough to keep the Sylvari afloat rather then boiling them down to child torturers. You may not be able to make divergent paths in the games story, but you *can* put in systems that align your character to a particular ideology.

 

The personality system was supposed to be this at first, unfortunately it got scrapped.

[Moonyeti.3296]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write.

>

> Well that’s the huge disadvantage to having to write our Commander as bland and generic as possible in order to fit such a vast and diverse class/race/sex combinations etc.

>

 

I agree completely. That is my main issue here. If the writers know they have to write for the middle of the road, they should work within that limitation that they imposed on themselves. Instead they want to have it both ways, narratively.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > > I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write.

> >

> > Well that’s the huge disadvantage to having to write our Commander as bland and generic as possible in order to fit such a vast and diverse class/race/sex combinations etc.

> >

>

> I agree completely. That is my main issue here. If the writers know they have to write for the middle of the road, they should work within that limitation that they imposed on themselves. Instead they want to have it both ways, narratively.

 

The way my Norn gets constantly cucked (yes, I’m aware of the misuse of the term, it’s pretty much become a meme now) by teenage angst Braham when in actuality any proper Norn would just slap some sense into him and tell him he is dishonoring his mother’s memory downright kittened me off.

 

Plus our Norns knew Eir way better than her wayward son and should’ve told him off for making her death all about him when it affected them just as much - if not more.

 

Tons of little things like that really grinds my gears. I’m sure other races run into similarly situations, too.

 

[Loesh.4697]

I wish some of the early character options, like just straight up *murdering* minor NPCs in the story remained as choices. Throwing a Charr renegade through a wall after he surrenders adds so much to my characters personality compared to some vague threats or choosing to cast 'Charm Person' on Minister 1849B.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > > > I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write.

> > >

> > > Well that’s the huge disadvantage to having to write our Commander as bland and generic as possible in order to fit such a vast and diverse class/race/sex combinations etc.

> > >

> >

> > I agree completely. That is my main issue here. If the writers know they have to write for the middle of the road, they should work within that limitation that they imposed on themselves. Instead they want to have it both ways, narratively.

>

> The way my Norn gets constantly cucked (yes, I’m aware of the misuse of the term, it’s pretty much become a meme now) by teenage angst Braham when in actuality any proper Norn would just slap some sense into him and tell him he is dishonoring his mother’s memory downright kittened me off.

>

> Plus our Norns knew Eir way better than her wayward son and should’ve told him off for making her death all about him when it affected them just as much - if not more.

>

> Tons of little things like that really grinds my gears. I’m sure other races run into similarly situations, too.

>

 

Fair enough, but wouldn't that be making branching storylines again beyond what they are doing already, which they would have to write then record? Probably doesn’t fit into their budget. I do understand your frustration though.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > > > @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > > > > I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write.

> > > >

> > > > Well that’s the huge disadvantage to having to write our Commander as bland and generic as possible in order to fit such a vast and diverse class/race/sex combinations etc.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I agree completely. That is my main issue here. If the writers know they have to write for the middle of the road, they should work within that limitation that they imposed on themselves. Instead they want to have it both ways, narratively.

> >

> > The way my Norn gets constantly cucked (yes, I’m aware of the misuse of the term, it’s pretty much become a meme now) by teenage angst Braham when in actuality any proper Norn would just slap some sense into him and tell him he is dishonoring his mother’s memory downright kittened me off.

> >

> > Plus our Norns knew Eir way better than her wayward son and should’ve told him off for making her death all about him when it affected them just as much - if not more.

> >

> > Tons of little things like that really grinds my gears. I’m sure other races run into similarly situations, too.

> >

>

> Fair enough, but wouldn't that be making branching storylines again beyond what they are doing already, which they would have to write then record? Probably doesn’t fit into their budget. I do understand your frustration though.

 

And as I said I understand Anet writing it like that.

 

Still really annoys me. :astonished:

 

[Magek.4718]

He was supposed to get in your head.

 

You know what he's saying is a load of shit, but it's supposed make you think.... "Shit, he's got a point"

[Loesh.4697]

I'd say he's completely right, the Pact Commander is an anti-hero if one was being generous.

[Felipe.1807]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I'd say he's completely right, the Pact Commander is an anti-hero if one was being generous.

 

Anti-hero? How is that lol?

 

Anyway, I honestly just dismissed everything that he said, its just Joko being Joko, telling a lot nonsense as usual...i mean, what were the commander and the orders choice at the moment? Let Zhaitan expand his influence in the world and possible annihilate great part of life on it? Let Mordremoth do the same? Allow Balthazar to roam free to kill kralkatorrik and all the others ED and obliterate Tyria? This is like saying the Dovahkiin is a evil/bad character cause he stopped Alduin from starting the next Kalpa.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I'd say he's completely right, the Pact Commander is an anti-hero if one was being generous.

>

> Anti-hero? How is that lol?

>

> Anyway, I honestly just dismissed everything that he said, its just Joko being Joko, telling a lot nonsense as usual...i mean, what were the commander and the orders choice at the moment? Let Zhaitan expand his influence in the world and possible annihilate great part of life on it? Let Mordremoth do the same? Allow Balthazar to roam free to kill kralkatorrik and all the others ED and obliterate Tyria? This is like saying the Dovahkiin is a evil/bad character cause he stopped Alduin from starting the next Kalpa.

 

I mean the Charr Pact Commander is a straight up fascist just for starters. that's your stance by default. But just as an example, if you join the Order of Whispers you're part of a global conspiracy backing a perpetual status quo in order to kill Dragons which we then later find out are fundamental to the planets life force. Frankly the good option is *yes*, don't try to kill the dragons when you don't know what they're about(They have been here 200 years already.) and actually understand why they are doing what they are doing as the the Kodan had done. Hell Tyria already did this once, and it worked, we could of been researching ways to balance out the rampant magical force in Tyria instead of push the collective population towards extinction.

[Dipdoo.4861]

At the core of whether The Commander/PC is really to blame is this:

The Pact is a hand and every race backing it is a finger, allowing The Pact/Hand to work. The Commander/PC is the knife used by the hand to kill the dragons and unknowingly create the poor state things are in. But there's always the what if of leaving the dragons be to terrorize and kill however much they wanted, and while that isn't world-ending like the current course could be, it explains why The Pact and everyone involved jumped the gun on stopping the immediate threat without thinking much past that. It depends on where you look at it from. With an overall 'greater good' type of view, The Pact, and by extension, The Commander have been doing wrong for a good while. But from a more reasonable 'single person caught in a tough situation' type of view, they did what they thought they needed to in order to protect them and their's from the dragons and being blamed for the previously unforeseen results is ridiculous. I feel that's exactly what ANet aimed to do and I think it worked.

 

I felt a hit of guilt during Joko's monologue and thought it was well put together, he might've been a manipulative egomaniac, but he wasn't dumb. Makes you wonder if the means for making this mess justify the premature end it could bring.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Dipdoo.4861" said:

> At the core of whether The Commander/PC is really to blame is this:

> The Pact is a hand and every race backing it is a finger, allowing The Pact/Hand to work. The Commander/PC is the knife used by the hand to kill the dragons and unknowingly create the poor state things are in. But there's always the what if of leaving the dragons be to terrorize and kill however much they wanted, and while that isn't world-ending like the current course could be, it explains why The Pact and everyone involved jumped the gun on stopping the immediate threat without thinking much past that. It depends on where you look at it from. With an overall 'greater good' type of view, The Pact, and by extension, The Commander have been doing wrong for a good while. But from a more reasonable 'single person caught in a tough situation' type of view, they did what they thought they needed to in order to protect them and their's from the dragons and being blamed for the previously unforeseen results is ridiculous. I feel that's exactly what ANet aimed to do and I think it worked.

>

> I felt a hit of guilt during Joko's monologue and thought it was well put together, he might've been a manipulative egomaniac, but he wasn't dumb. Makes you wonder if the means for making this mess justify the premature end it could bring.

 

I would agree _except_ for the fact that these results aren't really unforseen, the Priory has had the scroll of the Five True Gods since the raising of Orr and we've known about the Bloodstone and it's magic absorbing properties for awhile now. What information we have gathered pointed to the dragons being, in some way or another, integral to the function of the universe. There's even strong indicators, not the least of which both from the Gods and the Jotun, that the rise and fall of the Dragons even causes physical changes in the alignment of the stars.

 

We could of waited but we chose not to.The Order of Whispers was even formulating some kind of plan to put the Dragons back to sleep because they felt it was the only sane thing to do, but we ditched the idea.

[Dipdoo.4861]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

>

> I would agree _except_ for the fact that these results aren't really unforseen, the Priory has had the scroll of the Five True Gods since the raising of Orr and we've known about the Bloodstone and it's magic absorbing properties for awhile now. What information we have gathered pointed to the dragons being, in some way or another, integral to the function of the universe. There's even strong indicators, not the least of which both from the Gods and the Jotun, that the rise and fall of the Dragons even causes physical changes in the alignment of the stars.

>

> We could of waited but we chose not to.The Order of Whispers was even formulating some kind of plan to put the Dragons back to sleep because they felt it was the only sane thing to do, but we ditched the idea.

 

Huh, I didn't know most of that, thanks for bringing that to light. That's all pretty condemning for The Pact and Commander.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

>the Priory has had the scroll of the Five True Gods since the raising of Orr

From what we've heard about it, I actually figured that they picked it up from Arah- after Zhaitan had already been killed. Think about it. How would they have gotten their hands on a scroll full of secret knowledge while Orr was still Elder Dragon central? Why would they still be working to translate it in 1327 if they'd had it for over a century, when it was critical to the primary focus of their order?

>and we've known about the Bloodstone and it's magic absorbing properties for awhile now.

We have, but again, before Arah, it was believed that the gods had made the Bloodstone themselves, not that it was an older relic tied to the dragon cycle.

 

> We could of waited but we chose not to.The Order of Whispers was even formulating some kind of plan to put the Dragons back to sleep because they felt it was the only sane thing to do, but we ditched the idea.

 

Agreed on this point, but it is worth noting that the Whispers were going to that degree of trouble because they thought the dragons _couldn't_ be killed, not because they thought they shouldn't. It stands to reason that they'd abandon it for the simpler solution once they were faced with a strong argument that it might be viable.

[Torolan.5816]

@Aaron Ansari

Most sages and explorers thought Hieroglyphs to be a truly lost language because no one had the slightest clue of how to decipher them, and they were around for 200 years again until deciphered. And just because it is well hidden and protected, even in a dragon hoard it is not unobtainable.

 

Still it is a thought that is worth exploring.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> >the Priory has had the scroll of the Five True Gods since the raising of Orr

> From what we've heard about it, I actually figured that they picked it up from Arah- after Zhaitan had already been killed. Think about it. How would they have gotten their hands on a scroll full of secret knowledge while Orr was still Elder Dragon central? Why would they still be working to translate it in 1327 if they'd had it for over a century, when it was critical to the primary focus of their order?

> >and we've known about the Bloodstone and it's magic absorbing properties for awhile now.

> We have, but again, before Arah, it was believed that the gods had made the Bloodstone themselves, not that it was an older relic tied to the dragon cycle.

>

> > We could of waited but we chose not to.The Order of Whispers was even formulating some kind of plan to put the Dragons back to sleep because they felt it was the only sane thing to do, but we ditched the idea.

>

> Agreed on this point, but it is worth noting that the Whispers were going to that degree of trouble because they thought the dragons _couldn't_ be killed, not because they thought they shouldn't. It stands to reason that they'd abandon it for the simpler solution once they were faced with a strong argument that it might be viable.

 

Arah most certainly had a lot more secrets in it that were only accessible once the Dragon fell, but we know that they had it before because Zhaitan was called....Zhaitan, the Scrolls are actually where we get all their names(And we've only been able to read the S in the Sea Dragons name, which is why we're calling him bubbles.) and godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate, only the human PC even _knows_ what it looks like, and needs to be a corresponding profession to gather what it's magic does. I'd have to believe those series of swirls on Lyssa's page are pain in the arse to turn into a language. In addition, if you go the Priory you can talk to their Researches(One of whom is a Whispers agent curiously enough.) who talks about how the Elder Races outlasted the Dragons, implying that they at least had some grasp of the fact the Seers were working in tandem with the Gods on this score.

 

Granted these are all very small details scattered throughout the game, but they are __really__ important, and if Balthazar not uttering Lyssa's name at the end of PoF taught me anything it's that Anet does significantly less coincidences then people think they do.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

>but we know that they had it before because Zhaitan was called....Zhaitan, the Scrolls are actually where we get all their names

You have to go way back to find it, but one of the first things we learned about the GW2 setting was that [Zhaitan's name came from dwarvern legends.](

) Primordus came from the dwarves or asura, if memory serves, although I don't have time to track that reference down, and according to Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik came directly from Glint. Jormag's up in the air, but given that a number of his minions call out his name (the same goes for Zhaitan, for what that's worth), we still have a viable source for the information outside of the scroll.

>and godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate

It's in [an ancient form of Old Krytan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana), not god runes, but looking into it the Priory apparently couldn't translate the language until [sometime after 1325.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Researcher_Elspeth_Andryan) You and Torolan were right on that. However, that also disqualifies it as a source of information before 1325.

[Oglaf.1074]

I think the biggest fault with the Pact was that it was initially meant to be a defensive measure against Zhaitan. I don’t think they really expected to be able to take the fight to him, let alone kill him.

 

So when the opportunity to kill Zhaitan, and later Mordremoth, presented itself they eagerly jumped at it without really thinking about the consequences.

 

The Vigil you cannot really blame as they know only war like that, but you’d think the Priory (and the Order because let’s phase it, they have undercover agents stealing information from the other two, right?) would’ve argued caution.

 

But, yeah - swept up in the moment, drunk on finally achieving success at last and a chance at payback. Happens to the best of us.

[Twyn.7320]

The short answer is that every story step is subjective and hits people in different ways. What I feel isn't what you'll feel. For instance, when Taimi appears on screen, people smile. I burn internally and try to ignore as much as I can from her speech. If you're questioning Joko's speech, that's good, it shows engagement with the story.

 

However, I think the majority, and alarming stance from what I've seen is along the lines of: Well, yah, the Commander's a villain, but I'm not.

 

This ties back to the idea that the Commander's so bland and detached from the player that we actually agree with the villain. So, we were meant to hate Joko for everything that he stood for, and by the end, we actually ended up shrugging and agreeing with him. That's quite worrying. We feel more allegiance to the villain, than our own hero. Personally, I view the story from a third person perspective, it makes things more bearable to deal with. I can just pick and choose which characters are actually interesting, and Joko's been the stand-out for all of the chapters that he's appeared in.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> >but we know that they had it before because Zhaitan was called....Zhaitan, the Scrolls are actually where we get all their names

> You have to go way back to find it, but one of the first things we learned about the GW2 setting was that [Zhaitan's name came from dwarvern legends.](

) Primordus came from the dwarves or asura, if memory serves, although I don't have time to track that reference down, and according to Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik came directly from Glint. Jormag's up in the air, but given that a number of his minions call out his name (the same goes for Zhaitan, for what that's worth), we still have a viable source for the information outside of the scroll.

> >and godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate

> It's in [an ancient form of Old Krytan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana), not god runes, but looking into it the Priory apparently couldn't translate the language until [sometime after 1325.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Researcher_Elspeth_Andryan) You and Torolan were right on that. However, that also disqualifies it as a source of information before 1325.

 

I actually forgot about the Dwarven texts, Primordius almost certainly came about later then the Asura though, that much I remember. He was always referred to as the Great Destroyer, so perhaps someone did some research into old history and dredged that up. I still think the commander is a colossal idiot as are the Pact for rushing out like that after dealing with the Dragons for 200 years just due to a spike of activity, but I feel a little less harsh then before.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Since personal history, for me, the idea has always been to present Tyria as a chaotic place filled with clans / alliances conflicting with each other for banal motives. Good or bad, the commander brought an "order" to the chaos, first uniting the 3 orders to form the pact. Are we bad? who cares? Tyria is tragic hellhole to the point that even the Gods do not care about it.

 

I would be glad if the commander became a kind of a "new emperor", and a tyrant, putting order in all this non-sense. If thres no gods anymore we should become the new gods.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > >but we know that they had it before because Zhaitan was called....Zhaitan, the Scrolls are actually where we get all their names

> > You have to go way back to find it, but one of the first things we learned about the GW2 setting was that [Zhaitan's name came from dwarvern legends.](

) Primordus came from the dwarves or asura, if memory serves, although I don't have time to track that reference down, and according to Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik came directly from Glint. Jormag's up in the air, but given that a number of his minions call out his name (the same goes for Zhaitan, for what that's worth), we still have a viable source for the information outside of the scroll.

> > >and godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate

> > It's in [an ancient form of Old Krytan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana), not god runes, but looking into it the Priory apparently couldn't translate the language until [sometime after 1325.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Researcher_Elspeth_Andryan) You and Torolan were right on that. However, that also disqualifies it as a source of information before 1325.

>

> I actually forgot about the Dwarven texts, Primordius almost certainly came about later then the Asura though, that much I remember. He was always referred to as the Great Destroyer, so perhaps someone did some research into old history and dredged that up. I still think the commander is a colossal idiot as are the Pact for rushing out like that after dealing with the Dragons for 200 years just due to a spike of activity, but I feel a little less harsh then before.

 

Great Destroyer was a lieutenant of Primordus not Primordus himself

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate, only the human PC even _knows_ what it looks like, and needs to be a corresponding profession to gather what it's magic does. I'd have to believe those series of swirls on Lyssa's page are pain in the kitten to turn into a language.

 

Out of curiousity, where does the "only the human PC knows what it looks like and needs to be a corresponding profession to gather what it's magic does" come from?

 

I don't recall any such things, but my only humans are ranger, engi, and rev and none I don't play them much.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> You have to go way back to find it, but one of the first things we learned about the GW2 setting was that [Zhaitan's name came from dwarvern legends.](

) Primordus came from the dwarves or asura, if memory serves, although I don't have time to track that reference down, and according to Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik came directly from Glint. Jormag's up in the air, but given that a number of his minions call out his name (the same goes for Zhaitan, for what that's worth), we still have a viable source for the information outside of the scroll.

 

Jormag, Primordus, and Zhaitan's names all came from dwarven texts originally. This was told via interview, IIRC. Kralkatorrik's name (and Mordremoth's) may-or-may-not have held different origins as far as the modern races knew of the names.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> It's in [an ancient form of Old Krytan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana), not god runes, but looking into it the Priory apparently couldn't translate the language until [sometime after 1325.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Researcher_Elspeth_Andryan) You and Torolan were right on that. However, that also disqualifies it as a source of information before 1325.

 

Even then, [the Priory still have troubles with translation](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guard_Scholar_Keenwit_as_he_translates_druid_markings) in 1328 AE, nearly a year after they've begun/managed to translate the Tome of the Five True Gods.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > >but we know that they had it before because Zhaitan was called....Zhaitan, the Scrolls are actually where we get all their names

> > You have to go way back to find it, but one of the first things we learned about the GW2 setting was that [Zhaitan's name came from dwarvern legends.](

) Primordus came from the dwarves or asura, if memory serves, although I don't have time to track that reference down, and according to Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik came directly from Glint. Jormag's up in the air, but given that a number of his minions call out his name (the same goes for Zhaitan, for what that's worth), we still have a viable source for the information outside of the scroll.

> > >and godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate

> > It's in [an ancient form of Old Krytan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana), not god runes, but looking into it the Priory apparently couldn't translate the language until [sometime after 1325.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Researcher_Elspeth_Andryan) You and Torolan were right on that. However, that also disqualifies it as a source of information before 1325.

>

> I actually forgot about the Dwarven texts, Primordius almost certainly came about later then the Asura though, that much I remember. He was always referred to as the Great Destroyer, so perhaps someone did some research into old history and dredged that up. I still think the commander is a colossal idiot as are the Pact for rushing out like that after dealing with the Dragons for 200 years just due to a spike of activity, but I feel a little less harsh then before.

 

Primordus and the Great Destroyer are two separate beings and, in fact, dwarven text [refers to multiple Great Destroyers](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons). That said, Primordus' existence was questioned even during the events of Sea of Sorrows - at the time, the common belief was, apparently, that Jormag was the only Elder Dragon. Priory and Whispers knew otherwise, though, but no one would believe them (just as people didn't believe Cobiah about Zhaitan's existence let alone awakening).

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > godrunes by all indications isn't easy to translate, only the human PC even _knows_ what it looks like, and needs to be a corresponding profession to gather what it's magic does. I'd have to believe those series of swirls on Lyssa's page are pain in the kitten to turn into a language.

>

> Out of curiousity, where does the "only the human PC knows what it looks like and needs to be a corresponding profession to gather what it's magic does" come from?

>

> I don't recall any such things, but my only humans are ranger, engi, and rev and none I don't play them much.

 

In Season 3 when you see the Mirror of Lyssa, you get a little interaction if you're the PC and it's actually one of my favorite moments because the information varies wildly between characters(Even if Kasmeer just tells you after.). You need to be a Mesmer to piece together the mirror is using some absolutely broken form of Lyssian magic, and you need to be a human to recognize that the spirals around the edge of the mirror are Lyssian Godrunes. Even the Asura PC is like 'Well this is pretty powerful, but hell if I know what this is beyond it being Mesmeric.'

 

 

Examine it more closely.

(if human mesmer)

The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her.

(if human non-mesmer)

The decorative elements on it resemble those you've seen used by mesmers, and those are Lyssa's symbols around the edge. This was definitely god magic, thought now it's broken and has no magic left.

(if non-human mesmer)

The markings on it indicate it was powerful mesmer magic unlike any you've ever seen. Now that it's broken, it won't work ever again. It's trash.

(otherwise)

The decorative elements on it look like those you've seen used by mesmers. Whoever made it was a master craftsman. It's dead and useless now, though still beautiful.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I don't think there's such a thing as "godrunes". The "Lyssa's symbols" and "Lyssa's signature sigils" likely refer to [this](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Lyssa%27s_Reliquary.png) and similar symbols. Kind of like a blacksmith or artist putting a symbol on their work that acts as a signature.

 

Similarly, human mesmers are not reading the symbols/sigils as a language, but recognize them; likely as part of lessons in mesmer studies.