A list on 'useless' Skills and Traits that could use some updating

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

 

> Signet of suffering shouldn't exist. It doesn't have a purpose in the game aside from shotty patchwork for a broken mechanic. And not in a OP way broken. Shroud should not block off your utility skills. This is a major design flaw of the necromancer and having a trait that later patches up the short sighted design of the dev's doesn't make it good.

That's really not the topic of discussion here. And seriously, the assumption that Shroud shouldn't block off utilities is unrealistic.

There could some day be an ESpec iteration of Shroud that doesn't do that but until that day, this is how Shroud works.(Not counting Desert Shroud here) End of story.

 

> Reaper's protection isn't surrounded by better traits within death or out of death. It makes it a gimmick at best and because it doesn't have the right support its not good. So I stand by my case here.

I may have wanted to clarify that. This skill is a safety net, preventing noobs from getting instantly killed because of the first CC they encounter. I remember getting killed by chain-CCing band of ettins in Kessex Hills the first days of playing the game. Having a trait like this equipped might have saved my hide that time.

It doesn't have a place in advanced gameplay but it has a place in the game.

 

> Corrupted Fervor being the best trait in death is arguable. I think shrouded removal is the best trait in death. Corrupted Fervor doesn't do much for you. It's fairly weak and death on it's own doesn't give a whole lot of options to support it. You end up having to choose it over something like blood, curses or soul reaping which all offer a stronger option. Blood gives quite a bit of recovery, curses has weakening shroud and soul reaping hives more health along with more life force on top of foot in the grave which is a stunbreak. Maybe it could be good if death had stronger support for a bunker condi set up but it really doesn't.

I find that these 2 traits are the basis of what DM should be in addition to the Minion traits.

 

> Deathly strength is bad. The necromancer forums have had this debate for years now. And the majority consensus is that it just underperforms. Every once in a while we get someone singing the praises of this trait but it's got a bad start conversation, in a bad specialization, with contradictory design around conditions and toughness with this odd outlier in the spec. It's very bad.

I'm not really reading any condition interactions in DM other than the 2 traits involving Poison. That's not really "designed around conditions" to me.

What I'm really getting here is mostly because you(and others) find DM bad in general, that reflects to ALL of the traits, even the potentially good ones. When I think about a rehaul to DM, this trait could stay with a small buff. What DMs biggest problem is IMO is a lack of synergy.

 

> Unholy Sanctuary has been labeled as one of the worst traits of them all. And you want to top that off it actually doesn't function hardly at all with scourge. It will fail on scourge if you don't have something like 16% life force to use. This trait is a trap. It suckers newbies into thinking its amazing when in truth it has proven to be more of a detriment than anything else. Even on reaper and core. Even if this was a master trait if I had only one minion I'd take Necromantic Corruption over it. Even if it was an adapt trait I'd take shrouded removal over it. Even if it was in another trait line as an adept I'd take something else. It is that bad.

I must have mixed this with Unholy Martyr. Carry on.

 

> For banshee's wail I think I might have been a bit unfair with this one. Yeah it's not bad. My frustration is more with the warhorn skills themselves than the trait itself.

I suspected that. Although I'm still confused why, warhorn is great.

 

> Unholy fervor has been a part of the biggest regret I have in guild wars. I hate this skill. It might be personal bias since I used to like it. But they changed its function slightly and ruined its animation making it look like I'm paddling my enemy on my necromancer. And the skill doesn't perform that well either. I shouldn't have made frostfang. Underwhelming legendary with an underwhelming axe animation.

So it's an animation issue rather than what it actually does?

It's not a DPS weapon, so any issue related to that is not really an issue at all.

 

> Unholy feast is slow with an added effect that doesn't come up all that often.

It's a shame they added that side effect because it distracts people. It's just a bonus.

I've never found the slowness to be detrimental in using it, even in PvP. Works fine.

 

> On a profession with tones of access to boom strip and corrupt, corrupt boon doesn't stand out. Not only that it's one of the more self damaging corruption skills.

Sure but that doesn't mean it's useless. It's an option for Core necro, or even Reaper as they don't have as good of an access to corrupts as Scourge does.

 

> Hmm? Did I miss an update with this skill? But 75% sounds like a bug if that's true. But you also claimed dessicate did that, which it doesn't so you might be reading into it wrong.

Where did I claim Dessicate does that? I did assume that but I never implied as much.

It's definitely not a bug, and yeah, you might have missed an update.

It hits 5 targets now, and each target hit gives 15% LF.

I should know, I use this skill all the time in PvP.

 

> Well of darkness has a long cool down and is the weakest well. It's one moment to shine was a janky build using chilling darkness which was patched almost instantly.

35 seconds is a long cd to you? Maybe it could be 30 but that's as low as it could be pushed. The weakest well is most definitely Well of Suffering, it offers absolutely nothing unique or useful.

 

> Dessicate gives 10% life force no matter what you do. It's a slow skill with a massive tell, low might stacks and short range. It is not a good skill by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll give you this one, as I've never really used it. Turns out what assumptions I had are incorrect.

 

 

(I'm not quite done with this post but gotta leave work now, I'll edit it to readiness then.)

[RedShark.9548]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> **Guardian**

>

> Shouts - Shouts need an overhaul completely for PVE in my opinion, as they aren't really that great no matter whats your role. But to be more precise:

>

> 1. "Retreat"

> 2. "Stand Your Ground"

> 3. "Hold the Line"

>

> Mantras:

> 1. Mantra of Truth

>

> Weapons - Shield:

> 1. Shield of Absorption - Not really useless, but i think it could use some improvement

>

> Traits:

> 1. Focus Master

> 2. Communal Defenses

> 3. Tenacious Defense

> 4. Inner Fire

> 5. Zealous Scepter

> 6. Shattered Aegis

> 7. Empowering Might

> 8. Pure of Voice

> 9. Retaliatory Subconscious

 

op asked for skills and traits that arent used in any gamemode and here you are asking for changes for pve stuff

[kasoki.5180]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > **Guardian**

> >

> > Shouts - Shouts need an overhaul completely for PVE in my opinion, as they aren't really that great no matter whats your role. But to be more precise:

> >

> > 1. "Retreat"

> > 2. "Stand Your Ground"

> > 3. "Hold the Line"

> >

> > Mantras:

> > 1. Mantra of Truth

> >

> > Weapons - Shield:

> > 1. Shield of Absorption - Not really useless, but i think it could use some improvement

> >

> > Traits:

> > 1. Focus Master

> > 2. Communal Defenses

> > 3. Tenacious Defense

> > 4. Inner Fire

> > 5. Zealous Scepter

> > 6. Shattered Aegis

> > 7. Empowering Might

> > 8. Pure of Voice

> > 9. Retaliatory Subconscious

>

> op asked for skills and traits that arent used in any gamemode and here you are asking for changes for pve stuff

 

My PVE comment was just about shouts... which isn't even third of my proposed objections

[maddoctor.2738]

Elementalist:

Traits

Fire traits:

Conjurer (Conjures need a re-work)

One with Fire (Terrible trait that gives might when you apply Auras)

Power Overwhelming (sad that this condition damage trait is not taken over Pyromancer's Training)

 

Earth traits need help to compete with the other trait lines, as a whole

Elemental Shielding (Too situational, Aura application)

Strength of Stone (One with Fire does more... and is useless)

 

Arcane traits

Arcane Precision (Only taken because it's the only extra dps option)

Elemental Contingency (10 sec CD for 3 sec boon application based on your attunement, really useless)

Elemental Surge (Probably has some niche use somewhere, if only Arcane skills were worth using)

 

Tempest

Latent Stamina (A trait that has been modified countless times, at the current state it's weak)

Tempestuous Aria (Needs a "Shouts have reduced CD)

Lucid Singularity (Needs some lingering effect)

 

Skills

Ice Spike (Really weak and slow)

Shatterstone (Can we finally make this meme worth using?)

Conjure Frost Bow (This weapon is all over the place, buffs healing and condition damage, but does power dps)

Signet of Air (All movement signets feel rather useless now, I know players without PoF don't have mounts, but still doesn't feel good)

 

I tried not to list skills and traits that are useful in some aspect of the game, WVW/PVP/PVE/Raids/Fractals and only list those that I think are universally useless.

[The V.8759]

Thank you for the elementalist list! They have been added to the list.

[Ivantreil.3092]

Considering the recent changes, i think is safe to say Pinpoint Distribution has touched bottom compared to what it used to be.

 

Condi Engineer's won't take this trait anymore since now Thermal Vision is arguably a better condi trait when it comes to boosting Condi Engineer's numbers.

 

But it must be useful for buff a condi oriented group rather than oneself right?

 

Well, Snow Crows made tests, and they reached to the conclusion that the overall condi buff wasn't worth the dps loss in the Engineer, regardless of, if it was power or condi, the loss was big enough to declare Pinpoint Distribution as an unrealistic buff for Condi Benchmarks.

 

Conclusion: Pinpoint Distribution is a useless trait now...

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

What about the Guardian Spirit Weapons, specifically

The Sword of Justice

The Hammer of Wisdom

The Bow of Truth and

The Shield of the Avenger

While the sword is sometimes used there overall value is still pretty poor when viewed in comparison to other utilities. This particularly frustrating considering that they were quote, unquote fixed but still have issues with targeting etc and overall usefulness, which is obvious when look to see how rarely you see them in pretty much all of the different game modes. This is not to say that I don't think they can be fixed or improved without doing a complete redesign but that I'll put up in another post.

Granted this is just my personal opinion but from observation in PvE, PvP, WvW, Fractals and Raids I almost never see a Guardian running with them and if I do it's generally the sword only so there you are .

[Chemistral.7318]

Could someone please explain to me why Engineer's Orbital Command is on the list? I'm currently constructing my 1st Engineer build and would like to know so I can understand it's weakness and look for viable alternatives.

[The V.8759]

> @"Chemistral.7318" said:

> Could someone please explain to me why Engineer's Orbital Command is on the list? I'm currently constructing my 1st Engineer build and would like to know so I can understand it's weakness and look for viable alternatives.

 

It is the trait orbital commando, not the skill. Mine sweeper simply is always more damage than orbital command. For PvP, orbital command can be evaded so easily that it us useless

[aceofbass.2163]

Oohh add in rampage, banner of defense, and banner of tactics under warrior.

 

Also vote to swap elementalist-final shielding for zephyr's boon.

[Lahmia.2193]

Necromancer (just core).

Spite

Spiteful Renewal - An oddly placed trait. Move to Curses and it might see some use (or revamp Death and move it there).

Dread - Two damage mid line traits, this one always comes out on bottom. Not enough fear to make use of.

Curses

Terror - Again suffering from Dread syndrome, not enough fear to make use of. Also fear too easily countered.

Death Magic

Oh boy. Instead I will list the traits that are either alright or good:

Corruptor's Favor, Deadly Strength, Armoured Shroud.

Blood Magic

Blood Bond - needs a damage modifier vs bleeding foes. Otherwise it is just a meh trait that is only taken if you can't make use of the other two.

Banshee's Wail - Badly placed trait like Spiteful Renewal. Should be moved to Death Magic, when DM gets a revamp.

Soul Reaping

Fear of Death - Needs to be rolled into Terror to make it worthwhile.

 

Death Shroud

Dark Path - epitomizes terrible old skills.

Tainted Shackles - counter productive skill, torment then imob?

 

Reaper's Touch - needs an update much like guardian focus 4 had (the old version being mechanically identical to it).

Signet of Undeath - change the passive to +180 condi damage please.

Spectral Wall - had niche use in eotm. Since the nerf, it goes mostly unused. Projectile block in place of the fear might just work.

Well of Darkness - had niche use, in wvw, before they nerfed Chilling Darkness. Now mostly unused, despite many cooldown reductions. Proof of a bad skill.

Lich Form - Saved the best til last. Despite a rework, still goes unused. Please just kill this skill and remake it into a usable NON-FORM power elite.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"aceofbass.2163" said:

> Oohh add in rampage, banner of defense, and banner of tactics under warrior.

>

> Also vote to swap elementalist-final shielding for zephyr's boon.

 

no, rampage is used in pvp, some use it in wvw roaming and i sometimes use it for breakbar breaking in pve

[Yannir.4132]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"aceofbass.2163" said:

> > Oohh add in rampage, banner of defense, and banner of tactics under warrior.

> >

> > Also vote to swap elementalist-final shielding for zephyr's boon.

>

> no, rampage is used in pvp, some use it in wvw roaming and i sometimes use it for breakbar breaking in pve

 

Yeah, Rampage is extremely good for PvP, don't touch it.

[Infusion.7149]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> **Guardian**

>

> Shouts - Shouts need an overhaul completely for PVE in my opinion, as they aren't really that great no matter whats your role. But to be more precise:

>

> 1. "Retreat"

> 2. "Stand Your Ground"

> 3. "Hold the Line"

>

> Mantras:

> 1. Mantra of Truth

>

> Weapons - Shield:

> 1. Shield of Absorption - Not really useless, but i think it could use some improvement

>

> Traits:

> 1. Focus Master

> 2. Communal Defenses

> 3. Tenacious Defense

> 4. Inner Fire

> 5. Zealous Scepter

> 6. Shattered Aegis

> 7. Empowering Might

> 8. Pure of Voice

> 9. Retaliatory Subconscious

 

Those aren't necessarily bad, just generally not for PvE.

 

"Stand your ground" is one of the backbones of WvW and should never be touched without good reason. If PvEers ever decide to coordinate stability and stop tanking things with chrono then this might see use.

"Hold the line" has been run with core guardian up until other utilities were used.

 

I also don't see anything wrong with "Inner Fire" when the alternatives don't apply for condi unless you run sword which is not condi.

Empowering might is not much different usage-wise than warrior's phalanx strength with sigil of strength except the radius is smaller. It could use an increase in might duration though.

Pure of Voice is a victim of power creep : it was run with trooper runes in WvW.

 

----

 

What needs to be buffed is elementalist scepter auto , at least scepter 1 should burn in an area (130-180) even if the power damage is single target. It needs to do more damage than staff auto to be attractive due to lower range , and fire should cleave in PvE.

 

Similarly elementalist focus 4 on water should do more in PvE. Chill is not amazing.

 

Crystal hibernation , shield 5 on rev, is more or less unusable due to nerfs. There's a thread on this in the rev section. Should reflect projectiles , provide barrier, or something like that.

 

Necro dagger should also be looked at. It's max 2 targets , requires bleeding transferred to the enemy to be effective, and close range so it should be greatly stronger than the ranged axe option. The necro dagger trait only increases movement speed whereas some other cases have some sort of damage modifier stacking.

 

Mace mainhand on warrior I'd like to see more damage on mace 3 in PvE as it is single target. Not a huge priority.

 

Engineer rifle 2 needs to do more in PvE so that core engineer can be competitive. It is a net, no reason it can't affect 3-5 targets in a 130-180 cleave radius.

 

Ranger shortbow doesn't see much use and neither does axe : mainhand axe is sort of a hybrid weapon , maybe bleeding on auto should be added if a specific criteria is fulfilled (close range?).

 

I feel there's a fixation on utility skills when weaponskills ought to be prioritized for changes (mainly for PvE).

 

There's definitely skills that are weaker such as corrupt boon in PvE or "Fear me" in general but you can choose not to slot them.

Likewise the first 2 minor traits for warrior in the Tactics line only apply to reviving.

 

I'd also expect a lower cooldown in PvE for engineer's aim assisted rocket trait.

 

Scourge utilities need some help in PvE when boons aren't around as pretty much every utility revolves around boons.

 

 

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"aceofbass.2163" said:

> > > Oohh add in rampage, banner of defense, and banner of tactics under warrior.

> > >

> > > Also vote to swap elementalist-final shielding for zephyr's boon.

> >

> > no, rampage is used in pvp, some use it in wvw roaming and i sometimes use it for breakbar breaking in pve

>

> Yeah, Rampage is extremely good for PvP, don't touch it.

 

It is also just fun to mess about with because let’s face it: Banner is highly situational and Signet of Rage is such a dreadfully boring Elite.

 

“Hulk smash!”

 

[Yannir.4132]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> **Guardian**

>

> Shouts - Shouts need an overhaul completely for PVE in my opinion, as they aren't really that great no matter whats your role. But to be more precise:

>

> 1. "Retreat"

> 2. "Stand Your Ground"

> 3. "Hold the Line"

>

> Mantras:

> 1. Mantra of Truth

>

> Weapons - Shield:

> 1. Shield of Absorption - Not really useless, but i think it could use some improvement

>

> Traits:

> 1. Focus Master

> 2. Communal Defenses

> 3. Tenacious Defense

> 4. Inner Fire

> 5. Zealous Scepter

> 6. Shattered Aegis

> 7. Empowering Might

> 8. Pure of Voice

> 9. Retaliatory Subconscious

 

There's no such thing as a "PvE Overhaul". If you overhaul something, it happens in all modes. Unless it's just numbers changes, and that's not really an overhaul, is it?

 

"Stand Your Ground!", Retaliatory Subconscious and Mantra of Truth most definitely don't belong on this list. MoT is ironically the best defensive utility skill Guardian has as long as you land it. "SYG!" admittedly has niche uses in PvE but personally I always slot it in Uncategorized Fractal for the climbing parts, for example. The retal is neat as well. That's good enough of a role IMO. Retaliatory Subconscious isn't a particularly powerful trait but it is good enough for the slot it is in, and often picked over Unscathed Contender in PvP.

Also I don't believe Shattered Aegis or Pure of Voice deserve to be called useless. Sure they could use a little buffing because they just almost always lose to better options.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Shared anguish on ranger.

Every other profession gets a decent skill activation, ranger gets a disabled pet.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> Shared anguish on ranger.

> Every other profession gets a decent skill activation, ranger gets a disabled pet.

 

arent pets mentally disabled anyways?

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > **Guardian**

> >

> > Shouts - Shouts need an overhaul completely for PVE in my opinion, as they aren't really that great no matter whats your role. But to be more precise:

> >

> > 1. "Retreat"

> > 2. "Stand Your Ground"

> > 3. "Hold the Line"

> >

> > Mantras:

> > 1. Mantra of Truth

> >

> > Weapons - Shield:

> > 1. Shield of Absorption - Not really useless, but i think it could use some improvement

> >

> > Traits:

> > 1. Focus Master

> > 2. Communal Defenses

> > 3. Tenacious Defense

> > 4. Inner Fire

> > 5. Zealous Scepter

> > 6. Shattered Aegis

> > 7. Empowering Might

> > 8. Pure of Voice

> > 9. Retaliatory Subconscious

>

> There's no such thing as a "PvE Overhaul". If you overhaul something, it happens in all modes. Unless it's just numbers changes, and that's not really an overhaul, is it?

>

> "Stand Your Ground!", Retaliatory Subconscious and Mantra of Truth most definitely don't belong on this list. MoT is ironically the best defensive utility skill Guardian has as long as you land it. "SYG!" admittedly has niche uses in PvE but personally I always slot it in Uncategorized Fractal for the climbing parts, for example. The retal is neat as well. That's good enough of a role IMO. Retaliatory Subconscious isn't a particularly powerful trait but it is good enough for the slot it is in, and often picked over Unscathed Contender in PvP.

> Also I don't believe Shattered Aegis or Pure of Voice deserve to be called useless. Sure they could use a little buffing because they just almost always lose to better options.

 

Sorry, but using a skill only to ~~climb against wind and ground explosions~~ jump in one fractal doesn't make this skill "not useless". Sure, you use it on one thing but that one thing has none to marginal importance for the game or effectiveness of the class.

 

On topic of Shattered Aegis and Pure of Voice - You yourself have said that almost always other traits are picked over them. That's definition of useless. Nobody is using them because competitive traits are better and used almost always over these two.

Being useless doesn't mean that trait/skill is weak or stupid, it just means that in comparative perspective other traits/skills are almost always preferred.

 

I have yet to see a player that uses RS trait or MoT skill anywhere. But I admit I could be wrong on these two.

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > Shared anguish on ranger.

> > Every other profession gets a decent skill activation, ranger gets a disabled pet.

>

> arent pets mentally disabled anyways?

 

So you got my sneaky joke ;)

[Tails.9372]

> @"The V.8759" said:

> the list has been updated accordingly

Not really, I'm still missing some skills which are in dire need of updating.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> I have yet to see a player that uses RS trait or MoT skill anywhere. But I admit I could be wrong on these two.

RS was used in the old DH meta build in PvP. Some people still run it even if it's not meta anymore. And it's more useful than the other 2 traits in this line, if you do go Virtues and aren't planning on being a full glass cannon.

I use MoT on my Firebrand in PvP when I don't need Mantra of Lore/Smite Conditions/CoP. You should see some monthly tournaments, most Firebrands run it when they don't need 2 condi clears on their bar. From my perspective, it's rather Mantra of Potence and Mantra of Flame that are useless. I still don't go around saying so because I never use them.(I play DH for PvE)

 

> Sorry, but using a skill only to ~~climb against wind and ground explosions~~ jump in one fractal doesn't make this skill "not useless". Sure, you use it on one thing but that one thing has none to marginal importance for the game or effectiveness of the class.

 

You should read the whole thread instead of just my comment on it. I didn't want to bring up the WvW point of view which is the bigger point because A. other people already did that and B. WvW is not a game mode I play.

 

> On topic of Shattered Aegis and Pure of Voice - You yourself have said that almost always other traits are picked over them. That's definition of useless. Nobody is using them because competitive traits are better and used almost always over these two.

> Being useless doesn't mean that trait/skill is weak or stupid, it just means that in comparative perspective other traits/skills are almost always preferred.

You see in the case of Shattered Aegis the biggest issue is that Zeal is almost never picked for PvP/WvW. It's clearly a burst damage trait which screams PvP but Zeal is a weak traitline for the gamemode. If the traitline somehow became viable(with the next ESpec maybe) Shattered Aegis would probably be the strongest GM pick.

About PoV you may be right, it's clearly behind the times and I feel like I still wouldn't use it if the Shouts themselves got better.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Has any ele ever slotted soothing power? Blinding Ashes is also kinda useless if you ask me.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Revenant:

 

Traits:

Replenishing Despair

Bolstered Anguish. Has potential, but in practice not so much.

Fierce Infusion

Rapid Flow

Ferocious Strikes. Some will disagree with me on this, but why put two competing power dps traits on the same line? Especially considering they overlap in their application.

Momentary Pacification.

Soothing Bastion.

[LadyKitty.6120]

*reserves a slot for her list*