Threather.9354 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > If I'm not mistaken only superior and norms don't share cooldowns on shield gens. Guild shares cooldown though at least when I've tried so I only do the sup and norm combo. > > > > Nah, it has different range than superior so it considered different skill. I have done this before with 3 gens and it doesnt share cooldown. > > > > > > I just tested it again, superior and guild shield gens share cooldown. Ah well, good to know.. Guess I was comparing guild to normal and superior to normal or something so it resulted in misunderstanding. I dont exactly carry guild gens around so I only tried it once. Thank god they nerfed shield gens from blocking treb, mortar and cata fire tho, it was dumb af. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazzarr.1349 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Threather.9354" said: > > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said: > > ah but you can NOT use 3 bubbles alone. Your recharge goes with you even if you switch gens, or any siege for that matter. So if you pop one and run to the other you still have to wait for it. So you need one person for each gen. BUT.. ANet has changed it now so that you can't shield the shield gens... or at least I believe they can't overlap. > > Yes you can. Guild, normal and superior gens have different range so if you use 3 different kind of shield gens, they're considered different skills. If you dont believe, just go try it, I just did it in the screenshot I just posted placing 2 bubbles at same time. > > Fun similar issue with siege cooldowns: There is another kind of bug is in the golem bubble, if one player leaves the golem, another person can use the GOLEM bubble again. So you can basically coordinate with 10 people to rotate bubble in a golem. Very useful taking down watergate cannon with 1 golem + 1 ballista but super hard to coordinate. > > ah, ok then.. I hadn't considered the different types since I'm a guild siege bigot who never uses other siege.. haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > If you build catapults out of AC range, they'll get deleted by a ballista (except on a few objectives with weird terrain). If you build them on the wall, they're generally safe from that, or any defensive ballista can be attacked from below. > > > > Generally, the game should be encouraging fights over objectives rather than siege wars. This is a positive step toward that. > > If this game was designed for just fights then why have structures at all? The statement above doesn't make sense. We have structures so we have objectives to capture and defend... NOT just have fights. If ANet is going to make the structures harder and harder to defend to "force" people into just having fights then I can guarantee you that there will be more people that just leave the game. Not all of us like to just run in blobs and fight. Some of us actually enjoy taking and defending the towers and keeps we have captured. There's actually some fun in that even if the blobbers don't think so. > > It's sad how the blob fighters like to look at the people who actually defend our stuff as some sort of low lifes that just don't like to 'play the game'... BUT.. hey folks we ARE playing the game as it was designed... at least originally. Sadly it's slowly changing to encourage just fighting... and as a person with 3.4k WxP and over 9000 hours of WvW play time... I'm losing interest more and more. I mean seriously and super UGH!.. I have been playing some PvE lately and that sucks... If it keeps going at this rate my game time will change from a few hours a night to a few hours a week... or less... it's already dropped quite a bit... *sigh* Personally I do not consider running in a blob where you just trample over groups half your size as "fighting". I am not overly fond of blob versus blob fights of the same size either as there no a heck of a lot of "fight" here either. My idea of a "fight" is something like a 10 v 10 where each player uses the full suite of skills and any profession can do well in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord.8190 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Timelord.8190" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > Well it was near impossible pushing in SM lord room against certain servers due to spellbreaker bubbles and other defenders advantages. > > > > > > > > This massive AC nerf will make it slightly easier. as sometimes theres 5-6 acs inside also > > > > > > I'll give you that. > > > > > > Again, the nerf for players was good. To seige? Really only rewards bad play. > > > > Good play is spamming 1-4, am i right? > > Putting your Cata against the wall makes all the sense in the world Amiright? > > Check my posts. Never said ACs shouldn't have been nerfed vs players. Seige? Different story. That rewards mindless play. No, it doesen't. Catas have way lower HP and is countered by trebs, mortars, shield generators and other siege. It's the defenders advantage that is mindless, it has't been more unbalanced since they added HoT. Finally they realise how stale the game becomes by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorani.7205 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > My predictions: > > Towers will be flipped a lot faster on all tiers of match-ups. Low population servers on lower tiers and the underdog servers in match ups will not bother to defend towers any more. Less towers will reach T2 or T3 status. Players who have spend years caring for e.g. borderland defence will lose interest in WvW and leave, because they don't want to join zerg trains (which only large population servers can raise). Anet has started a EOTM transformation of our classical maps. :( > > And thats... bad? > .... > So I dont really see how more action for small parties is bad for WvW. Yes, that's bad. I have no idea which server you are playing on, but T2 & T3 towers sieged up to the rim are a rare sight where & when I am playing (EU - SFR/AG borderlands, which is currently in the top tier match up). Let's assume the following situation and I hope you will understand my point: There is a paper tower close to getting to T1 attacked by a party sized force of attackers. white sword flash up and three defenders rush in about 30 sec later. - Pre massive AC nerf: Defenders set up a Sup AC and shoot at the two catas at the wall. Bubbles are used, perhaps a second AC gets built, some wall damage is repaired. With siege disablers and ranged attacks from the wall the defenders had a good chance preventing the wall to hold, even if it was damaged and the attackers putting large AoE circles on the wall to keep defenders at bay. The AC was the main defence weapon, among other things. - Post massive AC nerf: damage to the catas has been halved by the update. Catas effectively gain twice the time to break down the wall (while defenders gain time to call for help, they are limited by supply in the depot to build and repair). AC damage to players has been severely reduced by the 0.5 sec nerf, because no matter how many ACs are there now (one/two in my example) cancel each other out due to the internal timer. Attacks might even be able to withstand the ACs with their personal heal skills. The attackers have lost nothing in both their offensive and defensive capabilities after the patch. Chances for the defender are significantly lower now to prevent a wall breach, favouring the attackers a lot. If on the fly defending has a such a small chance to succeeding, people with stop doing it (that's my prediction) and while the small parties attacking are favoured now, the small parties defending will cease to exist as a viable option. If nobody cares to do a basic level of defence, we will end up with EoTM situations, where a few larger groups zerg around (large groups are there to take stuff faster, not because it is more fun or exiting to fight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > My predictions: > > > Towers will be flipped a lot faster on all tiers of match-ups. Low population servers on lower tiers and the underdog servers in match ups will not bother to defend towers any more. Less towers will reach T2 or T3 status. Players who have spend years caring for e.g. borderland defence will lose interest in WvW and leave, because they don't want to join zerg trains (which only large population servers can raise). Anet has started a EOTM transformation of our classical maps. :( > > > > And thats... bad? > > .... > > So I dont really see how more action for small parties is bad for WvW. > > Yes, that's bad. I have no idea which server you are playing on, but T2 & T3 towers sieged up to the rim are a rare sight where & when I am playing (EU - SFR/AG borderlands, which is currently in the top tier match up). > Let's assume the following situation and I hope you will understand my point: There is a paper tower close to getting to T1 attacked by a party sized force of attackers. white sword flash up and three defenders rush in about 30 sec later. > - Pre massive AC nerf: Defenders set up a Sup AC and shoot at the two catas at the wall. Bubbles are used, perhaps a second AC gets built, some wall damage is repaired. With siege disablers and ranged attacks from the wall the defenders had a good chance preventing the wall to hold, even if it was damaged and the attackers putting large AoE circles on the wall to keep defenders at bay. The AC was the main defence weapon, among other things. > - Post massive AC nerf: damage to the catas has been halved by the update. Catas effectively gain twice the time to break down the wall (while defenders gain time to call for help, they are limited by supply in the depot to build and repair). AC damage to players has been severely reduced by the 0.5 sec nerf, because no matter how many ACs are there now (one/two in my example) cancel each other out due to the internal timer. Attacks might even be able to withstand the ACs with their personal heal skills. The attackers have lost nothing in both their offensive and defensive capabilities after the patch. Chances for the defender are significantly lower now to prevent a wall breach, favouring the attackers a lot. > > If on the fly defending has a such a small chance to succeeding, people with stop doing it (that's my prediction) and while the small parties attacking are favoured now, the small parties defending will cease to exist as a viable option. If nobody cares to do a basic level of defence, we will end up with EoTM situations, where a few larger groups zerg around (large groups are there to take stuff faster, not because it is more fun or exiting to fight). You can kill some those 5 people when they get in or when they get on the lord. You still have that AC or two, you still have wall advantage for 5-10 seconds and you can delay enough until more defenders join. Just because attackers breached, doesnt mean that they got the tower. Pre ac nerf: you won a fight with pressing 2 on AC Post ac nerf: you actually put some effort in defending and delaying enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Its a change that only support the ktrain. That outnumbered group in the tower will just port out sooner as the wall comes down so these 'fight guys' can blob the tower and continue to complain that the outnumbered people won't stay and die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ren yon.4679 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Clearly many people here have never tried to take a t3 smc that is siege capped with 30 defenders inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Timelord.8190" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Timelord.8190" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > > Well it was near impossible pushing in SM lord room against certain servers due to spellbreaker bubbles and other defenders advantages. > > > > > > > > > > This massive AC nerf will make it slightly easier. as sometimes theres 5-6 acs inside also > > > > > > > > I'll give you that. > > > > > > > > Again, the nerf for players was good. To seige? Really only rewards bad play. > > > > > > Good play is spamming 1-4, am i right? > > > > Putting your Cata against the wall makes all the sense in the world Amiright? > > > > Check my posts. Never said ACs shouldn't have been nerfed vs players. Seige? Different story. That rewards mindless play. > > No, it doesen't. Catas have way lower HP and is countered by trebs, mortars, shield generators and other siege. It's the defenders advantage that is mindless, it has't been more unbalanced since they added HoT. Finally they realise how stale the game becomes by it. Again, the ACs shouldn't have been the issue. Close or far, the shield gens can STILL block catas. Trebs? Really? Can't have some coordination on cata bubbles? Same with Mortars.. I haven't had my catas on T-1 NA during prime time on TOWERS killed by seige. It always requires them to come out and kill them. Needing Seige damage to ACs has only continued to reinforce poor strategy. Again, the changes can players Is well needed. Glad it's there. Shield gen changes, good as well, and I would extend their cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Threather.9354" said: > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > > If I'm not mistaken only superior and norms don't share cooldowns on shield gens. Guild shares cooldown though at least when I've tried so I only do the sup and norm combo. > > > > > > Nah, it has different range than superior so it considered different skill. I have done this before with 3 gens and it doesnt share cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > I just tested it again, superior and guild shield gens share cooldown. > > Ah well, good to know.. Guess I was comparing guild to normal and superior to normal or something so it resulted in misunderstanding. I dont exactly carry guild gens around so I only tried it once. > > Thank god they nerfed shield gens from blocking treb, mortar and cata fire tho, it was dumb af. But was that nerf intended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkChocolate.3201 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"ren yon.4679" said: > Clearly many people here have never tried to take a t3 smc that is siege capped with 30 defenders inside been there done that, with ele those ac's did hit harder than meteors from last 2 weeks... those ppl who siege cap their every objective are ppl who runs their ktrain and moment faces enemy blob,speed of light building multiple ac's in open field fight rofl so it will be funny to see how EU current T1 servers will fall in their ranks cuz cant have ac's backing them up on every movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threather.9354 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > > > If I'm not mistaken only superior and norms don't share cooldowns on shield gens. Guild shares cooldown though at least when I've tried so I only do the sup and norm combo. > > > > > > > > Nah, it has different range than superior so it considered different skill. I have done this before with 3 gens and it doesnt share cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just tested it again, superior and guild shield gens share cooldown. > > > > Ah well, good to know.. Guess I was comparing guild to normal and superior to normal or something so it resulted in misunderstanding. I dont exactly carry guild gens around so I only tried it once. > > > > Thank god they nerfed shield gens from blocking treb, mortar and cata fire tho, it was dumb af. > > But was that nerf intended? Hopefully yes. WvW was at better state before shield gens existed, each siege had their purpose and trebs, catas, mortars, cannons, omegas and ballistas weren't hindered useless by shield gens when attacking OR defending. I do understand that most players in this thread possibly didn't play WvW 3 years ago when the shield gens didn't exist so they have become overly reliant on them. Not like you need them or ACs to defend and take things. It isn't supposed to be 5v50 gamemode where 5 defenders should be able to hold everything with acs and gens, nor where 50 people can take everything immune of any siege damage under shields. The game should be balanced around defender having slight advantage so you can defend with 15 players vs 25 or even vs 50 if you're much better than the enemy players, not shield gen wars where skill and sustain doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage.7145 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 THIS NERF TO ACs is not nearly enough, the Acs still hit like a truck and ruin the game the 50% damage reduction should be global affecting damage to players too, put arrow carts on the ammo system also; 5 shots on the #1 1 shot #2#3#4 recharge every 10 secs make the shoots count dont just spam 11111111 all the time killing everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage.7145 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Arrow carts are not necessary in the current year there are siege disablers and fortified gates, invul gates on top of it, u can literally hold a blob with tactics alone for over 3 mins, that is more than enough time to get backup form other maps or whatever game should be about fighting for objectives not sitting on a wall spamming 111 on arrow carts killing everything, this Nerf isn't nearly enough please we need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Gorani.7205" said: > - Pre massive AC nerf: Defenders set up a Sup AC and shoot at the two catas at the wall. Bubbles are used, perhaps a second AC gets built, some wall damage is repaired. With siege disablers and ranged attacks from the wall the defenders had a good chance preventing the wall to hold, even if it was damaged and the attackers putting large AoE circles on the wall to keep defenders at bay. The AC was the main defence weapon, among other things. > - Post massive AC nerf: damage to the catas has been halved by the update. Catas effectively gain twice the time to break down the wall (while defenders gain time to call for help, they are limited by supply in the depot to build and repair). AC damage to players has been severely reduced by the 0.5 sec nerf, because no matter how many ACs are there now (one/two in my example) cancel each other out due to the internal timer. Attacks might even be able to withstand the ACs with their personal heal skills. The attackers have lost nothing in both their offensive and defensive capabilities after the patch. Chances for the defender are significantly lower now to prevent a wall breach, favouring the attackers a lot. > > If on the fly defending has a such a small chance to succeeding, people with stop doing it (that's my prediction) and while the small parties attacking are favoured now, the small parties defending will cease to exist as a viable option. If nobody cares to do a basic level of defence, we will end up with EoTM situations, where a few larger groups zerg around (large groups are there to take stuff faster, not because it is more fun or exiting to fight). See, that's the problem with very strong structure defence: You think the fight is over when the wall goes down. The fight doesn't _start_ until the wall goes down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage.7145 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 WvW should be all about strategy commander vs commander, zerg vs zerg, Arrowcarts should be nerfed to 5 target AoE cap just like players they should only be used by uplvls who cant fight on their own everyone else fully ascendant geared lvl 80s should always do more damage by actually using their class skills and mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Botinhas.2018" said: > > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > > I wish this was an exaggeration, but the ktrain "only wanting fights (LOL)" super-blob got their wish granted. Ktrain away oh great warriors, ktrain away. > > You seem to know a lot about k-train... What about those 20-30 groups trying to get fights or opening a keep, when tehre's 50+ inside manning 6 ac's refusing to come out, cause AC = avoid to fight a player. At least with this nerf the smaller attacking group actually can get a fights. Kitten forbid this WvW/PvP mode to enforce players to fight aggainst eachother, much more fun to keep promoting siege warfare. Yep, I've seen tags refuse to defend because they were too busy flipping useless paper targets, and I've watched super-blobs paper everything we have because they have 50+ on tag and we can't find 20 people to stop them. Plenty of ktrain going on. I don't follow the zergs, I'm one of the few trying to hold camps, back cap our third, run yaks, tick siege and scout. I regularly see groups of 20 or more trying to break into structures owned by the 50+ blob. It's not AC's that stop them, and it's not that the blob "refuses" to come out. The blob is off ktraining while the scout tells them how far along the 20 is getting. The blob appears, rolls over the 20 and goes back to ktraining. I watch streams of fight commanders all the time. It is rare that they are looking for an even fight (I'd say less than 5% of the time and those they coordinate in chat to get 15-25 each so it's an even fight). They roll around with 50 in squad plus 10-15 stragglers. Talk in chat about getting fights. Drop some siege on a tower because it will "draw out the enemy zerg for a fight". The enemy zerg has no choice but to come out and face the 50+. The most they can field is 30. Yep, great fight coming there. The 50-65 blob has successfully gotten a force half it's size to show up so they can farm them for bags, and THEN take the tower. You can say I'm wrong all you want. But all the alliance stacking testing going on, and bandwagoning that has been going on for years shows what people are doing. And, it's not "looking for fights". It is "looking for fights with smaller, less coordinated groups that we can farm every time". Watch the fight tag streams. Equal enemy force size appears and they lose once. They lose half the people on tag, blame pugs for being rally bots (well that is true) and then form up a private squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Ubi.4136" said: > I've seen tags refuse to defend because they were too busy flipping useless paper targets, and I've watched super-blobs paper everything we have because they have 50+ on tag and we can't find 20 people to stop them. Plenty of ktrain going on. I don't follow the zergs, I'm one of the few trying to hold camps, back cap our third, run yaks, tick siege and scout. You're also one of the reasons TC is outnumbered in every fight despite the map being queued. You and 20 of your kind leave the pin at a permanent disadvantage.. Ive little doubt you're also one of the many on TC full of opinions about how the commander should play, back when there was commanders TO backseat drive for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > > I've seen tags refuse to defend because they were too busy flipping useless paper targets, and I've watched super-blobs paper everything we have because they have 50+ on tag and we can't find 20 people to stop them. Plenty of ktrain going on. I don't follow the zergs, I'm one of the few trying to hold camps, back cap our third, run yaks, tick siege and scout. > > You're also one of the reasons TC is outnumbered in every fight despite the map being queued. You and 20 of your kind leave the pin at a permanent disadvantage.. Ive little doubt you're also one of the many on TC full of opinions about how the commander should play, back when there was commanders TO backseat drive for. Actually, I constantly mail tags siege, and respond to EVERY callout made in the map. I'm not on the map for pips or loot, I'm actually playing to "help" TC and not for personal glory. I have been on TC since launch and wvw is 95% of all I do every week in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > > > > I've seen tags refuse to defend because they were too busy flipping useless paper targets, and I've watched super-blobs paper everything we have because they have 50+ on tag and we can't find 20 people to stop them. Plenty of ktrain going on. I don't follow the zergs, I'm one of the few trying to hold camps, back cap our third, run yaks, tick siege and scout. > > > > You're also one of the reasons TC is outnumbered in every fight despite the map being queued. You and 20 of your kind leave the pin at a permanent disadvantage.. Ive little doubt you're also one of the many on TC full of opinions about how the commander should play, back when there was commanders TO backseat drive for. > > Actually, I constantly mail tags siege, and respond to EVERY callout made in the map. I'm not on the map for pips or loot, I'm actually playing to "help" TC and not for personal glory. I have been on TC since launch and wvw is 95% of all I do every week in game. You don't see the connection between flipping camps, backcapping towers and your pins being chronically undermanned? I spent some time on TC as well and the sheer amount of players doing as they pleased was amazing. It was small wonder when the guilds left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Threather.9354" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > > > > > If I'm not mistaken only superior and norms don't share cooldowns on shield gens. Guild shares cooldown though at least when I've tried so I only do the sup and norm combo. > > > > > > > > > > Nah, it has different range than superior so it considered different skill. I have done this before with 3 gens and it doesnt share cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just tested it again, superior and guild shield gens share cooldown. > > > > > > Ah well, good to know.. Guess I was comparing guild to normal and superior to normal or something so it resulted in misunderstanding. I dont exactly carry guild gens around so I only tried it once. > > > > > > Thank god they nerfed shield gens from blocking treb, mortar and cata fire tho, it was dumb af. > > > > But was that nerf intended? > > Hopefully yes. WvW was at better state before shield gens existed, each siege had their purpose and trebs, catas, mortars, cannons, omegas and ballistas weren't hindered useless by shield gens when attacking OR defending. > > I do understand that most players in this thread possibly didn't play WvW 3 years ago when the shield gens didn't exist so they have become overly reliant on them. Not like you need them or ACs to defend and take things. > > > It isn't supposed to be 5v50 gamemode where 5 defenders should be able to hold everything with acs and gens, nor where 50 people can take everything immune of any siege damage under shields. > > The game should be balanced around defender having slight advantage so you can defend with 15 players vs 25 or even vs 50 if you're much better than the enemy players, not shield gen wars where skill and sustain doesn't matter. Oh I would love to see changes to Shield Gens: increase cooldowns by 50%, smaller bubble radius, reduced range of bubble, etc, but if this was intended, (and I do not think it was) then there would be absolutely *NO* use for shield generators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser.9873 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Would have preferred they left it how it was, and simply made the siege cap smaller. One or two AC's per gate? Okay fine. 6+ that can blanket the entire area? That's where the problems came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 My face become little red because of too much facepalm :3 I like fighting because of how trebbing during hours in a long term strategy can be boring but I like brainstorming in strategy too and there are problems in causes and solutions in many posts. By the way i'm all for a nerf of structures tactics and aura because it has really little to no strategy interest. It's mainly full of passive (with always the sames tactics.). I'm also for a look at somes WXP upgrades. (And please delete shield gens.) That said : >If you want to defend an objective, you should put yourself at risk - preferably in combat with the attackers. The walls should just be there for stalling attackers until a defending force can arrive. 1) What will you do going in combat with the attackers 10 v 40 (most of the siege and WvW in general are with one team outnumbered.).. 2) On EU servers, mainly during prime time a defending force can come. (aka 20 hours per days, there isn't defending force with the same number of attackers who can come.) 2) "If you want to defend an objective, you should put yourself at risk" => if you want to take an objective, you should put some strategy into the siege and not rollface ram/cata to drop it in 2 min. >Defending was too easy. It was that easy that before the structure auto-upgrade (HoT), nobody care about upgrading because it can't be defended and it was a waste of money. All map (at least on 50% of eu server I was in/versus) were full of KT blob who rip in cicrle undefended paper structures (and no more players vs players fight.). >You should be able to delay ppl if you are outnumbered not to hold them off. Have you ever tried to do that during 4 years more than 5 hours / days before saying that ? The result is just 10 players who do hard try to delay 40 blob peoples with no skills who just spam 1 with a coffee on the other hand, with at the end structures investment being ripper days after days with **0** efforts from the attackers. >good job >fed up with bads who camp walls and never come out to fight Bads will just rotate in the other corner of the map. You will just move to the situation of seeing noobs in the wall to the situation of seeing nobody on the wall. >What was more basic and mindless then sitting on arrow carts? Sitting on raw/cata in a 40+ blob vs 10 ? (combined with no thought about the attack, just spam and if it didn't work, cry on the forum how defense is op.) >Sorry but a handful of people should not be able to deter a group of 20+ Sorry but a group of 20+ vs a handful people should not be able to rip structures with 0 reflexion in 3 min. (they should at least think about 1) weakened the defense, 2) weakened the supply 3) start to attacking the structure from the right angle.) >Twenty uncoordinated players could stall 60 for two hours easily. Between supply traps, treb poisons, acs, ballista, meteor shower and scourge aoes, you could literally never go near the Zerg and still stop their push. It's impossible to defend 20 uncoordinated vs 60 unless the 60 are a group of nobrain who spam 1 from one hand with a soda in the other. But maybe it's the main problem. Adapt the WvW to thoses people is probably not the better way from the long term to have healthy WvW. >Sorry but if you are that outnumbered that you can't get enough people to fight another zerg, why should you be able to stop them from taking your objective? Because an objective is conceptually a long term investment, you make defense during 2 hours to contain one or two blobs attacks during 5 min each attacks. Why should a 40 people who just arrive on a map be able to rip all T3 structures in one attack wherease lesser people spend 2 hours and many weapons to contain an attack ? The perfect scenario for me is that the 40 people who just arrived : 1) weaken the defense and cut the supply 2) maybe do some diversions 3) Attack the structure from more than 1 spot 4) weaken the defense 5) Attack finish the attack At the end they will cap the point (if it's 40v10 and they do good siege, it shouldn't take1 hour but it shouldn't take 3 min neither.). Way more strategy will be involved. And the group who is exceeded in number can also have some fight because it will not be just a 40 v 5 bloc but multi split spots. Everyone except ktrainers will gain something. >all they want to do is sit on all their siege, then proceed to "/laugh" because the 30 people inside the tower are too afraid to actually fight Then split your forces and go attack another structure while they sit down laughing in that tower. Think about strategies taking advantage that they waste their time in a structure. >Generally, the game should be encouraging fights over objectives rather than siege wars. This is a positive step toward that. They did that since the dezoom patch and each step toward that, lead to more kt, less fights and 0 siege strategy. >maybe these T1 servers finally think twice before building multiple ac's in open field fight... I'm neutral about open field ac's, but I can't get how open ac's in open field fight can be a problem. The definition of open field is that it's **open** so you only have to do 3 steps to go out of ac's. How people can stay into ac's aoe in **open field** ? >So please devs don't listen to the cry of People who already used AC's in Open World fights cause no IQ or something Not sure who has less IQ between the guy who build the ac vs the guy who stay in the aoe in the plain. >Well it was near impossible pushing in SM lord room against certain servers due to spellbreaker bubbles and other defenders advantages. SM is a special case in WvW (and the one in which mesmers portal can probably have the most impacts.). Pushing in the lord room is rarely the best strategy. >What about those 20-30 groups trying to get fights or opening a keep, when tehre's 50+ inside manning 6 ac's refusing to come out Rotate ! Spread the 50+ with rotation on the map. Take a step back, do not stay focused on one target. One more time think about strategies taking advantage that they waste their time in a structure. >Umm, rams are nerfed because you can now build a treb behind the gate to kill the rams. Even with treb behind the gate, with max range good positioning (wifi-rams), it's possible to open many gates. >A good organized Squad couldn't take a T3 garrison because of more or less 6 AC's. If they can't, it isn't y definition a good organized squad (maybe good in fights but newby in siege ?). What were the numbers of the protagonists and how much time did you spent on it ? >now you have to use different types of Strategy What are thoses new differents types of strategies ? >it has't been more unbalanced since they added HoT. Finally they realise how stale the game becomes by it. Before HoT map were full of paper structures who get rip in circle with ktrains on at least the 15 servers I met. (the situation wasn't good.) After HoT, outnumbering attack became invulnerable thanks to shield gens. So to say that defenders have an advantage is a little grubby. (And tactics and auto-upgrades destroy most of the structure balance adding too much passive in defense. (and let small groups on the tile.) .) >WvW should be all about strategy commander vs commander, zerg vs zerg, Arrowcarts should be nerfed to 5 target AoE cap just like players they should only be used by uplvls who cant fight on their own everyone else fully ascendant geared lvl 80s should always do more damage by actually using their class skills and mechanics. What is fun in 40 v 40 guys carried by 50% passives powercreep builds in which the leader do half the work for 39 people and in which a good third is just spamming 1 to steal somes bags ? (Not to mention the fact that in practice we know the result before the start of two thirds of the fights, even before the first hit.) Big fights were only 30% of WvW and structures/siege is what gaves it a particular flavor compared to other games. >Pre ac nerf: you won a fight with pressing 2 on AC >Post ac nerf: you actually put some effort in defending and delaying enemy. It isn't fight, it is a part of a siege reaction. Imagine the oposite side with extrapolation : you open a structure by just by pressing 2 on a cata. Finally it's just spam 2 vs spam 2 on siege, I do not see anything shameful or skilful it's just part of the action/reaction siege concept. The skill is to put/build the siege at the right position at the right time. Also the first attack failed, then when the next attack come from another spot, as the supply is empty (used to build cat/repair) attackers will most of the time open. Note that the fight should have to be in the supply camp when attacker supply and after the attack when defender should supply to repair from the attack/improve the defense. >And when you hear ALL the complaints from people about ACs, it's mostly coming from those people stating they 'just want the people inside to get off their seige and come out'. +1 which makes me bounce on my conclusion. **That said, I think that most of the fights should be around supply camp and supply control, not in structures. Like it was once a time. MAYBE REVALORIZE THE SUPPLY SO EVERYONE BE HAPPY ?** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"cobbah.3102" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"cobbah.3102" said: > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > @"cobbah.3102" said: > > > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > > > Good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to defend an objective, you should put yourself at risk - preferably in combat with the attackers. The walls should just be there for stalling attackers until a defending force can arrive. > > > > > > > > > > Hahahaha yes fight an omniblob you are rather funny what with everything that covers walls, pulls through walls ,pets through walls so generally 3 people maybe at objective and you want them to jump into a mob to delay them what realm of reality are you in?? As soon as you try to peep over wall you already at risk time to be real > > > > > > > > Place siege in impossible to reach spots and you can still delay. Like others have said if you've badly outnumbered you shouldn't expect to successfully defend an objective merely delay the attackers in time for more defenders to get there. > > > > > > So you say no defending against the so called fight servers because they outnumber you ?? make it easy for them so they can be on thier way to the next one ,man so out of touch with the game. > > > > Thats a strawman you've got going there. Its about trying to find a better balance of offence and defence. > > ok better balance no ACs and no PVD no rings of death on walls as quoted somewhere just rams and oil I'm up for that. Lets hear from the T1's oh wait we already have nerf all siege hue hue Doubling down on the strawman, no point debating you then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Player.9621 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 ac's and meteors are still deterrants if you dont have the sustain. theres no need for salt adapt and digress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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