Fresh Air weaver was OP and had to be nerfed...Deadeye burst from stealth and 1500 is fine

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Kako.1930" said:

> > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > Fa weaver was way more op than de. It actually saw use in tourneys. It also had less tells than de does which made them infuriating to fight against. Also, that weaver build had both a teleport and weapon swap, please stop spouting nonsense

>

> Eles don't have the option to swap weapons, though. Only attunements.

>

> I agree with the OP. Fresh air weaver was already a very niche build that hardly anyone used, and it was not effective in the least, but it was still nerfed into oblivion. At the same time, professions with much higher survivability and DPS were actually buffed, so there is indeed a double standard there.

>

> Also, there are several other niche builds that "saw use in tourneys" that are also not effective, but none of these builds were on the winning team.

>

> As for tells... FA ele has no stealth and 900 range. If you can't tell that an ele holding a scepter and focus at 900 range maximum is going to deal damage then that's on you, especially if you've seen him more than once in the same match. Even then, their numbers from an entire multi-element burst (that you would have to be afk to be hit by entirely) is still less than DE can deal in 1 skill, which also happens to be unblockable and from stealth. Even the DE just spamming the 3rd skill on rifle deals more damage.

>

> FA has a max range of 900, no boon steal, no stealth, only one teleport (which is only 900 range and is not a stun break), no unblockable skills, (all of which DE has, including a 2-way 1,200 range teleport that breaks stun and removes 3 conditions and a 900 range teleport on a weapon skill) and FA ele is the first to be focused down in any semi-intelligent fight. To claim that they are somehow stronger than DE is just silly. Come on, now...

 

Also people don't look at ele's attunements anymore. He is in earth or fire? He will burst soon. **After that, you have full 4 seconds of pure freedom to kill him, since he is stuck in double air attunement!** Same attunement awareness goes for people being desperate about S/D weaver being unkillable by the way.

 

Maybe I expect too much. It's not needed anymore anyways.

 

Still, I don't think DE is overpowered at all. It's a classic noob filter. Much of his damage is reflectable unlike FA weaver's. Not the best gameplay, but please, rework some things instead of nerfing the damage, if anyone wants to change it at all... why do I have the feeling, DE actually gets that rework while ele gets nerfed again? :lol:

[Megametzler.5729]

Oops, delete please!

[VanWilder.6923]

Oh no, please do not nerf DE.

I just switched from Weaver to Deadeye after the latest patch, and am gearing up my Thief, unlocked both Specs 2 days ago. I am loving Deadeye now.

Please let me feel the Deadeye and I am only PvE.

And if there will be a nerf to DE, please make it for PvP and WvW.

[Kako.1930]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Kako.1930" said:

> > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > Fa weaver was way more op than de. It actually saw use in tourneys. It also had less tells than de does which made them infuriating to fight against. Also, that weaver build had both a teleport and weapon swap, please stop spouting nonsense

> >

> > Eles don't have the option to swap weapons, though. Only attunements.

> >

> > I agree with the OP. Fresh air weaver was already a very niche build that hardly anyone used, and it was not effective in the least, but it was still nerfed into oblivion. At the same time, professions with much higher survivability and DPS were actually buffed, so there is indeed a double standard there.

> >

> > Also, there are several other niche builds that "saw use in tourneys" that are also not effective, but none of these builds were on the winning team.

> >

> > As for tells... FA ele has no stealth and 900 range. If you can't tell that an ele holding a scepter and focus at 900 range maximum is going to deal damage then that's on you, especially if you've seen him more than once in the same match. Even then, their numbers from an entire multi-element burst (that you would have to be afk to be hit by entirely) is still less than DE can deal in 1 skill, which also happens to be unblockable and from stealth. Even the DE just spamming the 3rd skill on rifle deals more damage.

> >

> > FA has a max range of 900, no boon steal, no stealth, only one teleport (which is only 900 range and is not a stun break), no unblockable skills, (all of which DE has, including a 2-way 1,200 range teleport that breaks stun and removes 3 conditions and a 900 range teleport on a weapon skill) and FA ele is the first to be focused down in any semi-intelligent fight. To claim that they are somehow stronger than DE is just silly. Come on, now...

>

> Also people don't look at ele's attunements anymore. He is in earth or fire? He will burst soon. **After that, you have full 4 seconds of pure freedom to kill him, since he is stuck in double air attunement!** Same attunement awareness goes for people being desperate about S/D weaver being unkillable by the way.

>

> Maybe I expect too much. It's not needed anymore anyways.

>

> Still, I don't think DE is overpowered at all. It's a classic noob filter. Not the best gameplay, but please, rework some things instead of nerfing the damage, if anyone wants to change it at all... why do I have the feeling, DE actually gets that rework while ele gets nerfed again? :lol:

 

Lol, yeah, with Anets awareness it probably will be.

 

I'm also not saying DE is overpowered, just that it's still miles above FA weaver in strength and viability. It's not that DE is OP, it's that FA weaver is so weak that it makes practically anything look OP in comparison lol. It's just laughable that someone is actually trying to argue that it's even in the same league.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

 

> Has 4x stun breaks (1 passive if the run lesser sheuld) , 2x invul also a port - same health as a thief - nothing to reflect back and can do the burst the moment you're in range pretty sure Los didn't effect this so much neither or at least in wvw you can burst behind obstacles.

 

**(don't read the comment too agressively)**

You know what the FA build is right? No Ele eve would run the earth traitline ... it's garbage and doesn't synergize with the FA build or any ele build atm.

Mist form is not used again since you can't waste a 40s icd 900 range port so basically one invul of 2 sec that doesn't allow you to disengage (unless you combine with the only port on 40s icd and 900 range) so irrelevant comment here :) **(don't read the comment too agressively)**

 

Basically i could list all passives and stealth possible from thieves but it would n't make sense either since these options are not viable. Get the point?

 

> > 2) Deadeye rifle:

> > - 1500 range

> > - stealth

> > - reveal remover

> > - teleport

> > - weapon swap

>

> Ok all true for de. Most can be reflected most PvP maps are crowded with stuff to hide behind as well

 

DO you know what unblockable and pierce means? it can't be blocked NOR reflected.

 

BUT I think that FA had more sustained burst then deadeye maybe ... could "spam" more its burst. Could be wrong on that.

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

>

> > Has 4x stun breaks (1 passive if the run lesser sheuld) , 2x invul also a port - same health as a thief - nothing to reflect back and can do the burst the moment you're in range pretty sure Los didn't effect this so much neither or at least in wvw you can burst behind obstacles.

>

> **(don't read the comment too agressively)**

> You know what the FA build is right? No Ele eve would run the earth traitline ... it's garbage and doesn't synergize with the FA build or any ele build atm.

> Mist form is not used again since you can't waste a 40s icd 900 range port so basically one invul of 2 sec that doesn't allow you to disengage (unless you combine with the only port on 40s icd and 900 range) so irrelevant comment here :) **(don't read the comment too agressively)**

>

> Basically i could list all passives and stealth possible from thieves but it would n't make sense either since these options are not viable. Get the point?

>

> > > 2) Deadeye rifle:

> > > - 1500 range

> > > - stealth

> > > - reveal remover

> > > - teleport

> > > - weapon swap

> >

> > Ok all true for de. Most can be reflected most PvP maps are crowded with stuff to hide behind as well

>

> DO you know what unblockable and pierce means? it can't be blocked NOR reflected.

>

> BUT I think that FA had more sustained burst then deadeye maybe ... could "spam" more its burst. Could be wrong on that.

>

 

Who said anything about running earth line? And what about the rest of the rifle skills? Dj is pretty simple to dodge.

[Kako.1930]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> >

> > > Has 4x stun breaks (1 passive if the run lesser sheuld) , 2x invul also a port - same health as a thief - nothing to reflect back and can do the burst the moment you're in range pretty sure Los didn't effect this so much neither or at least in wvw you can burst behind obstacles.

> >

> > **(don't read the comment too agressively)**

> > You know what the FA build is right? No Ele eve would run the earth traitline ... it's garbage and doesn't synergize with the FA build or any ele build atm.

> > Mist form is not used again since you can't waste a 40s icd 900 range port so basically one invul of 2 sec that doesn't allow you to disengage (unless you combine with the only port on 40s icd and 900 range) so irrelevant comment here :) **(don't read the comment too agressively)**

> >

> > Basically i could list all passives and stealth possible from thieves but it would n't make sense either since these options are not viable. Get the point?

> >

> > > > 2) Deadeye rifle:

> > > > - 1500 range

> > > > - stealth

> > > > - reveal remover

> > > > - teleport

> > > > - weapon swap

> > >

> > > Ok all true for de. Most can be reflected most PvP maps are crowded with stuff to hide behind as well

> >

> > DO you know what unblockable and pierce means? it can't be blocked NOR reflected.

> >

> > BUT I think that FA had more sustained burst then deadeye maybe ... could "spam" more its burst. Could be wrong on that.

> >

>

> Who said anything about running earth line? And what about the rest of the rifle skills? Dj is pretty simple to dodge.

 

Not if you cast binding shadow from stealth first. On my DE, I like to wait until they're knocked down to cast DJ. Unless they have a stunbreak and Condi clear that can clear at least 3 condis at once, it'll hit, since they'll also be immobilized and have poison and vulnerability on them at the very least. (Probably cripple and possibly other cover condis too. It also removes 2 boons, so even if they have stability it will still knock them down)

 

FA burst is easy to dodge as well, less spammable, blockable, has less range and only has one knockdown that's slow and difficult to land to try to lock their target down with, no boon removal, and the ele has no stealth to cover their casting with. The target doesn't need to remove condis at the same time as breaking stun to get out of it, either.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

 

> Who said anything about running earth line? And what about the rest of the rifle skills? Dj is pretty simple to dodge.

 

My bad I confused the lesser shield in arcane with the earth shield from earth.

[shinta.8906]

u forgot the way better condi cleanse on de in comparison to fa.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > Here my second thread from the topic : " If it's good eles can't have it", another example of double standards, personal bias and what more . No point in pointless banter and chit chat so I will get straight to the point :

> > >

> > > 1) FA weaver:

> > > - 900 range

> > > - no stealth

> > > - no sustain

> >

> > Has 4x stun breaks (1 passive if the run lesser sheuld) , 2x invul also a port - same health as a thief - nothing to reflect back and can do the burst the moment you're in range pretty sure Los didn't effect this so much neither or at least in wvw you can burst behind obstacles.

> >

> >

> > > 2) Deadeye rifle:

> > > - 1500 range

> > > - stealth

> > > - reveal remover

> > > - teleport

> > > - weapon swap

> >

> > Ok all true for de. Most can be reflected most PvP maps are crowded with stuff to hide behind as well

> >

> >

>

> 4x stunbreaks? 2x invulnerabilities? LoS didn't affect it?.........what?

 

You're unaware of the lightning having unlimited range and hitting without line of sight? Until they fixed it, the very same patch that killed that build.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I'd be worried about DE getting nerfed if it was mesmers complaining instead of necros and eles...

 

 

 

[Kako.1930]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > Here my second thread from the topic : " If it's good eles can't have it", another example of double standards, personal bias and what more . No point in pointless banter and chit chat so I will get straight to the point :

> > > >

> > > > 1) FA weaver:

> > > > - 900 range

> > > > - no stealth

> > > > - no sustain

> > >

> > > Has 4x stun breaks (1 passive if the run lesser sheuld) , 2x invul also a port - same health as a thief - nothing to reflect back and can do the burst the moment you're in range pretty sure Los didn't effect this so much neither or at least in wvw you can burst behind obstacles.

> > >

> > >

> > > > 2) Deadeye rifle:

> > > > - 1500 range

> > > > - stealth

> > > > - reveal remover

> > > > - teleport

> > > > - weapon swap

> > >

> > > Ok all true for de. Most can be reflected most PvP maps are crowded with stuff to hide behind as well

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 4x stunbreaks? 2x invulnerabilities? LoS didn't affect it?.........what?

>

> You're unaware of the lightning having unlimited range and hitting without line of sight? Until they fixed it, the very same patch that killed that build.

 

Yeah, that was during the month or so that it was bugged. They could have just fixed that bug without gutting ele entirely though lol.

[Ryan.9387]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> Fa weaver was way more op than de. It actually saw use in tourneys. It also had less tells than de does which made them infuriating to fight against. Also, that weaver build had both a teleport and weapon swap, please stop spouting nonsense

 

No it didn't.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"BeLZedaR.4790" said:

> All the thieves jumping the train to defend their profession and attack OP even when they’re not attacked only proves DE is actually broken and/or cheesy.

> FA ele should be buffed by actually making some fire skills better imo.

> It definetly got overnerded for not even being meta.

 

Couple things.

 

1.) Pretty sure it's closer to knee-jerk aggression from multiple months of being pushed out of pvp in most capacities by players who ~~lack object permanence~~ think thieves do too much of -anything- because of the nature of their class. Thief -just- got a rework to placate the people who were frustrated at DJ outta nowhere (even with the mark) and now there's knives pointing at them again.

2.) Yes, ele needs a buff. They're due. The infinite arc bug was annoying but didnt warrant a complete bricking of the class.

 

[Curennos.9307]

FA's burst had much less counterplay than DE does. Also, your little...list thingy in the OP looks horrendously cherry-picked and incomplete. Ofc FA/ele didn't deserve to be smashed the way it was, but...you're not really clear about what the point of this thread is xD

 

"This is not a nerf deadeye thread!" Okay well...that tells me nothing. Cheesecake is great. Buff ele?

[Coolguy.8702]

> @"Kako.1930" said:

> > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

 

>

> Eles don't have the option to swap weapons, though. Only attunements.

>

> I agree with the OP. Fresh air weaver was already a very niche build that hardly anyone used, and it was not effective in the least, but it was still nerfed into oblivion. At the same time, professions with much higher survivability and DPS were actually buffed, so there is indeed a double standard there.

>

> Also, there are several other niche builds that "saw use in tourneys" that are also not effective, but none of these builds were on the winning team.

>

> As for tells... FA ele has no stealth and 900 range. If you can't tell that an ele holding a scepter and focus at 900 range maximum is going to deal damage then that's on you, especially if you've seen him more than once in the same match. Even then, their numbers from an entire multi-element burst (that you would have to be afk to be hit by entirely) is still less than DE can deal in 1 skill, which also happens to be unblockable and from stealth. Even the DE just spamming the 3rd skill on rifle deals more damage.

>

> FA has a max range of 900, no boon steal, no stealth, only one teleport (which is only 900 range and is not a stun break), no unblockable skills, (all of which DE has, including a 2-way 1,200 range teleport that breaks stun and removes 3 conditions and a 900 range teleport on a weapon skill) and FA ele is the first to be focused down in any semi-intelligent fight. To claim that they are somehow stronger than DE is just silly. Come on, now...

 

Attunement swap >>> Weapon swap as theres 4 options to choose from instead of just 2

 

It was effective though, i saw a vid of someone wrecking everyone in the tourneys. No, everything else was nerfed with fa weaver, dunno where you fot that info from. Here watch this, tell me thats wasnt effective

 

Lies, de burst has many tells (you got a huge marker on your character for goodness sake). And deaths judgement is very easy to see coming. Weaver burst was much harder to tell since theirs was instant with no real visual tells.

 

Weaver had the fiery gs elite, which made up for the lack of teleports. Also phoenix was and still is an unblockable 11k hit, and air focus 5 was another unblockable cc. Shadowstep is op i agree. De is also first to go down and they definetly cant spam rifle 3 with the amount of projectile hate in this game. Only real advantage de has over the old fa weaver is more range, stealth, and mobility. Thats just it

 

 

 

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Fa weaver is my main its my blood. Im only a gold 3 player so nothing to really speak about. But when all your skills are 900 ranged at most, single target and you cant even top 13k hit on a single target whats the point....when u got telepoeting invisable mesmers doing 20k bombs, teleporting invisable 1500 range pew pew thfs doing 15k+ DJs, when u got insta teleporting gaurdians doing 18k damage, when u got 1500 range pew pew rangers and 20k+ worldy impacts....whats the point. How can a aingle target dps class that fant even top 13k on a single target be able to compete in this meta?

 

I have given up until something changes.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> (...)

 

 

That's one shitty example. Ele is freecasting for 3 minutes, I had to switch it off. Typical example of a noob filter, the game is a complete blowout.

 

Even though that guy was famous for being a great FA player. He made it to legendary, which is great, but it does not mean, it is OP. Why? Because that time, there were a lot of people above him carried by classes (cough scourge cough).

 

€: I don't even want to explain what a DE would have done to him lol.

[shinta.8906]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

Only real advantage de has over the old fa weaver is more range, stealth, and mobility. Thats just it

>

 

 

made my day.. ty :D

 

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"shinta.8906" said:

> > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> Only real advantage de has over the old fa weaver is more range, stealth, and mobility. Thats just it

> >

>

>

> made my day.. ty :D

>

 

Wouldn't even be sure about mobility. FA weaver had (and still has) perma swiftness and some superspeed. That's pretty quick. But yes, you can **see it running to you**. Compare that to Steal, Judges intervention, stealth in general etc.

[Griever.8150]

I really wish i vs'd more Deadeyes, they're so freaking easy to counter compared to a lpt of other stuff rampant on the ladder.

[sephiroth.4217]

My coffee was ruined by the salt pouring off my screen in this thread

[Coolguy.8702]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

>

>

> That's one kitten example. Ele is freecasting for 3 minutes, I had to switch it off. Typical example of a noob filter, the game is a complete blowout.

>

> Even though that guy was famous for being a great FA player. He made it to legendary, which is great, but it does not mean, it is OP. Why? Because that time, there were a lot of people above him carried by classes (cough scourge cough).

>

> €: I don't even want to explain what a DE would have done to him lol.

 

Theres plenty of other vids where he wrecks pros too. Ive seen him win against top tier players like sindrener for example. I’ll edit my other comment to show a better vid instead. The op clearly talks about that time so i figured it be great to show you how broken that build was if u knew how to play it.

 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > No please...spare me the L2P comments, I am not really concerned about deadeye more than the next guy...

>

> Personal bias has almost always been a thing with ArenaNet balancing professions. Personally, I haven't had many problems fighting deadeyes as they are fairly easy to kill, but what irritates the most is the long stealth duration and just how insultingly easy it is to pull off compared to what d/p thieves have to do for the exact same thing.

 

Unfortunately, it's this. Class favoritism within the balance team is quite blatantly obvious to anyone that follows their decisions. Classes that have not been meta for many months get no buffs. Classes that have nearly always been meta are given a massive rework that includes ridiculous buffs which completely remove everything that counters the class.

 

I'm guessing the balance team must be comprised of someone high up on the food chain because in any other company they would have been reassigned by now just being real.

 

As for deadeye, it's not broken, but it is cheesy. It shouldn't be nerfed, but it could use a change.

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

What is FA Weaver? I'm kinda new, so all I've seen is FA Tempest with Scepter/Warhorn (surprisingly scary btw). And from what I can see the difference between DE and FA is that FA isn't a projectile and can repeat burst insanely quickly in Tempest. And I mean it's just nuts. I don't know exactly all the differences, but a projectile versus not projectile is a huge difference because projectiles are interactive. You can delete them, reflect them, absorb them, or LoS them. A bolt of lightning just hits.

 

 

I'm not trying to take sides (I'm far too new), but if I was a balancing person I would cut the power level of less interactive builds first. A 0s internal cooldown on the functionality of either the air attunement recharge or the air attunement lightning strike while being unnecessary to check for projectile can turn out to be extremely dangerous. A set of rifle shots from a stationary target that, after using entire burst combo, will have little to nothing left is less concerning especially in the case that the rifle shots are projectiles which can be checked.