Taking damage while stealthed

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Rodzynald.5897" said:

> Is there any other game that offers a class so much mobility on top of access to invisibility?

 

The problem for a Thief is that mobility and invisibility are not combat effects.

 

Mobility is like running into a brick wall. If the Thief is squishy and the target is sturdy, nothing changes. All it can do is allow a Thief to run away from the wall successfully.

 

Invisibility is like an inverse blind that can only be applied every 4 seconds. When inversely blinded, it can only be removed by the being hit instead of missing an attack. If the inverse blind was persistent, then it would definitely be combat effective. It's not. An invisible Thief cannot apply pressure while invisible. It must be visible to apply pressure or even contest a point.

 

Endure/Defy Pain or Signet of Stone or even boons like Protection are significantly more useful in combat than mobility or invisibility.

 

A Thief is like a fly. It's annoying. It's fast and easily vanishes from sight. It has to be that way. If not, it's easily, easily squashed.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> There's a simply fix to separate good stealth players from bad:

>

> - Reveal on dodge (only if stealthed)

>

> We probably should make movement speed 50% baseline in stealth though.

 

I love this. Please implement the 50% speed reduction. I wanna stealth my party with Shadow Refuge at start, and watch them flame me as I snared them and they wont get on the capture points in time.

Debuffing your own teammates, what a flawless idea. This actually should be implemented for the next april 1st. I unironically want this now.

[Arioch.4810]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > There's a simply fix to separate good stealth players from bad:

> >

> > - Reveal on dodge (only if stealthed)

> >

> > We probably should make movement speed 50% baseline in stealth though.

>

> I love this. Please implement the 50% speed reduction. I wanna stealth my party with Shadow Refuge at start, and watch them flame me as I snared them and they wont get on the capture points in time.

> Debuffing your own teammates, what a flawless idea. This actually should be implemented for the next april 1st. I unironically want this now.

 

You gave me an idea for new mechanic: attack that hits for some base dmg+ton of conditions and puts target in stealth. Now the target has some interesting choices.

Stealth as a debuff mechanic, now that would open some design possibilities :)

[Exciton.8942]

This will give AOE and large cleave skills too much advantage over skills that require a target.

[rng.1024]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > There's a simply fix to separate good stealth players from bad:

> >

> > - Reveal on dodge (only if stealthed)

> >

> > We probably should make movement speed 50% baseline in stealth though.

>

> I love this. Please implement the 50% speed reduction. I wanna stealth my party with Shadow Refuge at start, and watch them flame me as I snared them and they wont get on the capture points in time.

> Debuffing your own teammates, what a flawless idea. This actually should be implemented for the next april 1st. I unironically want this now.

 

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > @"rng.1024" said:

> > > There's a simply fix to separate good stealth players from bad:

> > >

> > > - Reveal on dodge (only if stealthed)

> > >

> > > We probably should make movement speed 50% baseline in stealth though.

> >

> > I love this. Please implement the 50% speed reduction. I wanna stealth my party with Shadow Refuge at start, and watch them flame me as I snared them and they wont get on the capture points in time.

> > Debuffing your own teammates, what a flawless idea. This actually should be implemented for the next april 1st. I unironically want this now.

>

> You gave me an idea for new mechanic: attack that hits for some base dmg+ton of conditions and puts target in stealth. Now the target has some interesting choices.

> Stealth as a debuff mechanic, now that would open some design possibilities :)

 

+50% movement speed haha

 

You'd still get damage reduction if traited for it and target drop, and only the thief would enjoy the speedbuff ofc ;)

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Rodzynald.5897" said:

> > Is there any other game that offers a class so much mobility on top of access to invisibility?

>

> The problem for a Thief is that mobility and invisibility are not combat effects.

>

> Mobility is like running into a brick wall. If the Thief is squishy and the target is sturdy, nothing changes. All it can do is allow a Thief to run away from the wall successfully.

>

> Invisibility is like an inverse blind that can only be applied every 4 seconds. When inversely blinded, it can only be removed by the being hit instead of missing an attack. If the inverse blind was persistent, then it would definitely be combat effective. It's not. An invisible Thief cannot apply pressure while invisible. It must be visible to apply pressure or even contest a point.

>

> Endure/Defy Pain or Signet of Stone or even boons like Protection are significantly more useful in combat than mobility or invisibility.

>

> A Thief is like a fly. It's annoying. It's fast and easily vanishes from sight. It has to be that way. If not, it's easily, easily squashed.

 

You completely missed the point. You haven't played a lot of thief/rogue type of class in other MMORPGS to get what I meant? "Rinse and repeat" should be enough.

 

As for Endure/Defy Pain and stone siggy, those are whole different mechanics you try to put here for a bizzare reason. Focus on the topic at hand, please, don't change the subject, because these two have little to do with mobility and invisibility itself, save for combo-ing it to escape from power damage spikes.

 

And as for the:

"Endure/Defy Pain or Signet of Stone or even boons like Protection are significantly more useful in combat than mobility or invisibility." - You kinda try to deny the reality of most top tier players who run mobility heavy/invisibility (reasonable access to it, or thief) classes.

[Pyraxy.1902]

> @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

>

 

Almost all of these skills aren't even viable considering the build you are forcing yourself to play for these skills lmao.

[Pyraxy.1902]

> @"Exciton.8942" said:

> This will give AOE and large cleave skills too much advantage over skills that require a target.

 

Then it should be easy to not get hit when you have access to information on where those AoE's are placed while in stealth. You have movement skills in stealth to snake your way around. And people act like you dont have a dodge roll while in stealth for some reason lmaooo.

[Aeolus.3615]

It is easy to fix to make stealth players reveal when taking damage but also add strong and balanced trade offs, to help that the stealth class, it could also be used to make players avoid getting killing by "glitching" tracking code of some skills since some skills wont loose track of the stealth'ed player on their duration.

 

Still Anet never liked to fix those stuff cause that's where the easy rewards gimmicks come trough, just **leech** what dev's dont want to fix/improve.

 

Just kill the thief while he is entering in stealth lots of skills will keep doing damage, it's is a valid counter to the class due how Anet dont want to make decent combat mechanics besides the flow of the toon.

At the end it is game for scrubs overall reason pvp always failed hard, probably would be to hard for the kinda of players Anet really wants to be playing their pvp.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > In all of those other games, the classes are designed around that version of stealth. WoW rogues are significantly tankier out of stealth than GW2 thieves are, for example.

>

> No, they are not. They have less options to avoid damage than a bad build Gw2 thief.

> A WoW rogue has one really defensive CD which is Evasion and which has a longer cd. He has Cloak of Shadows, which only removes magic debuffs, no bleeding and a sprint which doesn't make him immune vs cc or slows and Shadowstep which needs a player target you can jump to

> That's the toolkit you have.

>

> That's a lot worse than a GW2 thief.

>

>

 

WoW Rogue also gets baseline Dodge percent increases with their damage stat (Agility), and their stealth is literally unlimited out of combat, whereas a GW2 Thief needs to have a setup to do the same thing. Comparing two games in this manner is disingenuous at best, as you are not giving an entire picture of what balance looks like in those games. GW2's Thief is one of the squishiest classes in the game, primarily due to their low hp pool. I think thief mains just make it look easier than it is, and losing to someone you didn't see coming is unsatisfying. Doesn't mean it's a problem for game balance though, as there are counters in the game for them. Losing stealth on a tick of damage would just be an overkill nerf to the entire class. Losing stealth on a failed sneak attack might not be a horrible idea.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"geist.9173" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > In all of those other games, the classes are designed around that version of stealth. WoW rogues are significantly tankier out of stealth than GW2 thieves are, for example.

> >

> > No, they are not. They have less options to avoid damage than a bad build Gw2 thief.

> > A WoW rogue has one really defensive CD which is Evasion and which has a longer cd. He has Cloak of Shadows, which only removes magic debuffs, no bleeding and a sprint which doesn't make him immune vs cc or slows and Shadowstep which needs a player target you can jump to

> > That's the toolkit you have.

> >

> > That's a lot worse than a GW2 thief.

> >

> >

>

> WoW Rogue also gets baseline Dodge percent increases with their damage stat (Agility), and their stealth is literally unlimited out of combat, whereas a GW2 Thief needs to have a setup to do the same thing. Comparing two games in this manner is disingenuous at best, as you are not giving an entire picture of what balance looks like in those games. GW2's Thief is one of the squishiest classes in the game, primarily due to their low hp pool. I think thief mains just make it look easier than it is, and losing to someone you didn't see coming is unsatisfying. Doesn't mean it's a problem for game balance though, as there are counters in the game for them. Losing stealth on a tick of damage would just be an overkill nerf to the entire class. Losing stealth on a failed sneak attack might not be a horrible idea.

 

I would definitely be up for losing stealth on a failed sneak attack, as someone who plays a lot of Deadeye.

 

Also, a stealthed thief in GW2 is still extremely vulnerable to cleave, as you can still run around spamming your 1 skill on most builds and likely get a few hits in. WoW doesn't have that anywhere insofar as I'm aware (maybe some pbaoe stuff? Been a bit, too many classes to check anyway), so you either have a target to hit, or you can't target and thus can't even swing in the general area.

 

People really underestimate the value of blind swinging in the general direction of a recently stealthed thief. If they're dagger/something, it'll make it harder for them to land a backstab on you, and they'll still take a ton of damage even from AAs if you do manage to land a couple.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > @"geist.9173" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > In all of those other games, the classes are designed around that version of stealth. WoW rogues are significantly tankier out of stealth than GW2 thieves are, for example.

> > >

> > > No, they are not. They have less options to avoid damage than a bad build Gw2 thief.

> > > A WoW rogue has one really defensive CD which is Evasion and which has a longer cd. He has Cloak of Shadows, which only removes magic debuffs, no bleeding and a sprint which doesn't make him immune vs cc or slows and Shadowstep which needs a player target you can jump to

> > > That's the toolkit you have.

> > >

> > > That's a lot worse than a GW2 thief.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > WoW Rogue also gets baseline Dodge percent increases with their damage stat (Agility), and their stealth is literally unlimited out of combat, whereas a GW2 Thief needs to have a setup to do the same thing. Comparing two games in this manner is disingenuous at best, as you are not giving an entire picture of what balance looks like in those games. GW2's Thief is one of the squishiest classes in the game, primarily due to their low hp pool. I think thief mains just make it look easier than it is, and losing to someone you didn't see coming is unsatisfying. Doesn't mean it's a problem for game balance though, as there are counters in the game for them. Losing stealth on a tick of damage would just be an overkill nerf to the entire class. Losing stealth on a failed sneak attack might not be a horrible idea.

>

> I would definitely be up for losing stealth on a failed sneak attack, as someone who plays a lot of Deadeye.

>

> Also, a stealthed thief in GW2 is still extremely vulnerable to cleave, as you can still run around spamming your 1 skill on most builds and likely get a few hits in. WoW doesn't have that anywhere insofar as I'm aware (maybe some pbaoe stuff? Been a bit, too many classes to check anyway), so you either have a target to hit, or you can't target and thus can't even swing in the general area.

>

> People really underestimate the value of blind swinging in the general direction of a recently stealthed thief. If they're dagger/something, it'll make it harder for them to land a backstab on you, and they'll still take a ton of damage even from AAs if you do manage to land a couple.

 

Could you imagine all the guardian's bringing their Staff Auto attack? Instant-reveal of any thieves in the game in a huge cone in front of them.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> > @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> > I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

> >

>

> Almost all of these skills aren't even viable considering the build you are forcing yourself to play for these skills lmao.

 

I laugh so kitten hard when I read something like that.

Let me help you as it seens people doesn't understand how some basic mechanics work.

 

Start of rant.

 

First of all.

Lock On *IS* a core trait for any Engineer that runs "Tools" AND IS META. For Holos at least.

Magebane Tether is indeed not meta for Spellbreakers. But there is a catch

 

A very important catch.

 

Thieves due to low engagement ability and their incredible ability to disangage usually resets the fight a lot. Which means that usually both players leave the battle mode and regenerate health.

 

This is often considered an advantage to Thief.

*It is not*.

 

Let me ignore the fact that you healed and skills are lowering in cooldown. Let me point the very fact that you are OUT OF BATTLE.

 

YOU CAN CHANGE TRAITS OUT OF BATTLE

YOU CAN KITTEN CHANGE UTILITY SKILLS OUT OF BATTLE.

 

- Your Spellbreaker can press "H" and change the traits in less that a kitten Second. You already using the SB line either way. You can also change 2 useless Utility skills (since against thieves you have no use for stunbreakers nor resistance) and slot "On my Mark" and "Sight beyond Sight".

- Your Ranger can slot Sic'en, assuming you already doesn't have it since its ANOTHER Meta utility for offensive ranger builds. (that people should be using, since there is no way in hell a bunker ranger will lose to a Thief)

- Your Enginner can slot Analyze. Not like you have any use for Photon Wall against unblockable DJ.

 

I am aware that "not every class" has access to revealed. But the excuse that you can't change utility's and traits against a class that resets every 10 seconds to adapt is simple hard to swallow. Even more considering that both classes that have traits that apply revealead are pretty much Meta lines.

 

Heck, when you enter out of battle you can literally *Waypoint* away in front of the Thief.

As a neat bonus, If you are on gliding zone you can use the Build Template addon and change your build completely in around 4 seconds. Even faster if someday ANET actually add Templates in game. An expected and unwanted side effect, as if thieves already didn't get nerfed enough everytime ANET changes anything on the game. (invalid path patch anyone?)

 

End of Rant

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> > @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> > I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

> >

>

> _Almost all of these skills aren't even viable_ considering the build you are forcing yourself to play for these skills lmao.

 

kek

 

its funny because 90% of them are meta, and tainted shackles is automatically given to anyone insane enough to play core necro.

[whoknocks.4935]

Make some skills locked and unavailable when using stealth.

Probably while stealthed you can't use your healing skill.

This would help counterplay against those stupid rangers, especially druids who are 15% hp, they enter stealth and when you see them again they are already back to full 100% health, right now unless you have an aoe wide range CC, you can't counterplay that stupid mechanic at all.

If you are not able to heal yourself while stealth you have to either heal before you go stealth and your opponent have a chance on interrupt, or after immediately you left stealth, when you are revealed.

Similar to engi invuln. Elixir S, all skills are locked and usually you dodge immediately after exiting invuln. if there is an incoming threat, and heal too if the heal is ready.

This would help even with deadeyes too, they spam stealth to get back to full health if they are in trouble.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Make some skills locked and unavailable when using stealth.

> Probably while stealthed you can't use your healing skill.

> This would help counterplay against those stupid rangers, especially druids who are 15% hp, they enter stealth and when you see them again they are already back to full 100% health, right now unless you have an aoe wide range CC, you can't counterplay that stupid mechanic at all.

> If you are not able to heal yourself while stealth you have to either heal before you go stealth and your opponent have a chance on interrupt, or after immediately you left stealth, when you are revealed.

> Similar to engi invuln. Elixir S, all skills are locked and usually you dodge immediately after exiting invuln. if there is an incoming threat, and heal too if the heal is ready.

> This would help even with deadeyes too, they spam stealth to get back to full health if they are in trouble.

 

No. Stealth is not invuln.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Make some skills locked and unavailable when using stealth.

 

Of course not, try to imagine a Guardian or Warrior leaping trough a smoke field by accident to find they can't use heals skills for 3 seconds?

 

That would be a new way to troll people at WvW.

 

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > Make some skills locked and unavailable when using stealth.

>

> Of course not, try to imagine a Guardian or Warrior leaping trough a smoke field by accident to find they can't use heals skills for 3 seconds?

>

> That would be a new way to troll people at WvW.

>

 

Warrior using heal skill? xD

 

Jokes apart that's the only way to balance stealth in my opinion.

You go stealth to kite and get some space, defende yourself mindgaming with your opponent or for an ambush attack.

 

If you are not able to use your healing skill then you have to think more carefully when to go stealth instead of spamming it every 3 seconds like deadeyes does.

Or even worse as I mentioned, those druids who are 5% health and exit stealth with 100% health again with almost zero counterplay.

 

If you leap through a smoke field as a guardian and get stealth, use that stealth to reposition yourself, maybe you are no more the main target and no need to use your healing skill anyway.

And btw one attack and you are out of stealth immediately, so they are not 3 seconds of stealth.

 

How you exactly troll someone stealthing him? I don't get it, he simply can't use the healing skill for few seconds, if he attacks a mob or an enemy he get rid of the stealth immediately if he wants too, but still benefit the stealth tho.

 

It's the same as Elixir S in engineer, you even use this skill when you are full health to completely deny huge burst incoming, and you can't use any skill, just wait it finishes, probably dodging out of it for safety, and then return to fight.

 

My propose was only about the healing skill. You can still use you teleports, mobility skills, elites while stealthed, except healing skill.

 

Healing skill is by definition number one priority when fighting someone, the first skill you must interrupt (or at least try), watching the animation you interrupt it with a timed CC. If you play thief, maybe DP daredevil you know how it's great to use pistol4 and interrupt healing skills.

if you are stealthed I have zero counterplay for your healing skill.

And reveal is dumb mechanic which only few profession have and the range is so useless so you have to use it just before the enemy use stealth and not when he is already stealthed.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Rufo.3716" said:

> Stealth in the massive amounts that it's available in this game is disgusting. People complain about stealth classes in every game since the beginning of time and for some reason game companies continue to think it's a good idea to include as skills. Now all a thief has to do is dodge roll and they gain stealth.

 

No, he has to dodge roll while holding the worst sPvP weapon in thief's arsenal.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> While I understand frustration from stealth gameplay, this would entirely remove stealth as a viable tactic. That's even less desirable. We could argue that more CC should reveal (or apply it), but plain damage definitely not.

 

Well as others would say who criticize others who complain when their classes get nerfed...

 

"The stealth classes will just have to think about when to use their skills and stealth better for survival" "If they can't figure it out, then change classes"

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> > @"Exciton.8942" said:

> > This will give AOE and large cleave skills too much advantage over skills that require a target.

>

> Then it should be easy to not get hit when you have access to information on where those AoE's are placed while in stealth. You have movement skills in stealth to snake your way around. And people act like you dont have a dodge roll while in stealth for some reason lmaooo.

 

You're focused on a single game mode. In WvW there isn't just one aoe, there are hundreds, overlapping and spreading across the field. PvE is similar. It's not humanly possible to just "dodge" out of that. "I don't like stealth in sPvP so delete it in the other two game modes entirely". I don't necessarily disagree with the person who said dodging while in stealth reveals, though... that could be interesting. Your choice is have your stealth or have your evade but not both. Any amount of damage to reveal, however, is a terrible idea with almost zero thought put in to it, based on "well I don't like it so get rid of it" gut reactions by someone who has pretty clearly never actually played a stealth-based thief because they have no idea how counter-play works.

[Daishi.6027]

If this was a top down MMO with mana costs and no hard cooldowns other than maybe after cast delays I'd agree. Otherwise no, getting hit out of stealth would make it useless.

 

Reveal for whiffed attacks on the other hand would force heavy stealth builds to eventually run out instead of true endless relatively safe stealth, and punishes predictability.

[MUDse.7623]

while it would be enough to see the stealthed opponent more, you guys allways want to take away all secondary effects especially of thief too. thief has stealth attacks and a ton of traits that interact with stealth. applying reveal disables all of them too, wich is why we dont have much reveal and wont ever have much unless we get a complete redesign of thief. why dont you ask just for an effect to only see stealthed opponents not stip them of stealth? such an effect can be put into game way more reliable. but no you just think one dimensional, i dont like it please make it go away. that wont likely cause any changes.

[dDuff.3860]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"Rufo.3716" said:

> > Stealth in the massive amounts that it's available in this game is disgusting. People complain about stealth classes in every game since the beginning of time and for some reason game companies continue to think it's a good idea to include as skills. Now all a thief has to do is dodge roll and they gain stealth.

>

> No, he has to dodge roll while holding the worst sPvP weapon in thief's arsenal.

 

btw, this is invalid,

Pistol MH is much worse, D/D too, I'd even consider rifle being better than staff, because of its arsenal... So I wish we could have that trait tied out from rifle. That is where the crythreads will blast! ^_^

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > Make some skills locked and unavailable when using stealth.

> >

> > Of course not, try to imagine a Guardian or Warrior leaping trough a smoke field by accident to find they can't use heals skills for 3 seconds?

> >

> > That would be a new way to troll people at WvW.

> >

>

> Warrior using heal skill? xD

>

> Jokes apart that's the only way to balance stealth in my opinion.

> You go stealth to kite and get some space, defende yourself mindgaming with your opponent or for an ambush attack.

>

> If you are not able to use your healing skill then you have to think more carefully when to go stealth instead of spamming it every 3 seconds like deadeyes does.

> Or even worse as I mentioned, those druids who are 5% health and exit stealth with 100% health again with almost zero counterplay.

>

> If you leap through a smoke field as a guardian and get stealth, use that stealth to reposition yourself, maybe you are no more the main target and no need to use your healing skill anyway.

> And btw one attack and you are out of stealth immediately, so they are not 3 seconds of stealth.

>

> How you exactly troll someone stealthing him? I don't get it, he simply can't use the healing skill for few seconds, if he attacks a mob or an enemy he get rid of the stealth immediately if he wants too, but still benefit the stealth tho.

>

> It's the same as Elixir S in engineer, you even use this skill when you are full health to completely deny huge burst incoming, and you can't use any skill, just wait it finishes, probably dodging out of it for safety, and then return to fight.

>

> My propose was only about the healing skill. You can still use you teleports, mobility skills, elites while stealthed, except healing skill.

>

> Healing skill is by definition number one priority when fighting someone, the first skill you must interrupt (or at least try), watching the animation you interrupt it with a timed CC. If you play thief, maybe DP daredevil you know how it's great to use pistol4 and interrupt healing skills.

> if you are stealthed I have zero counterplay for your healing skill.

> And reveal is dumb mechanic which only few profession have and the range is so useless so you have to use it just before the enemy use stealth and not when he is already stealthed.

 

And what if you are trying to run away, 10 conditions burning you and some thieve accidentally stealth you and you have to watch yourself melting because can't heal yourself for 3 seconds?

 

Having one class affecting others negatively is bad design.

I could literally make a thief full of aoe Stealth and start spamming stealth on players getting eaten alive by AoEs and watch they die because their heal got interrupted by an ally.

 

Also "just attack something to break stealth" is a terrible argument. Sometimes you simply doesn't have anything to attack, and can still die to conditions on damage from outside your range.