Sylvari Looks: Why aren't there Charr or Asura Sylvari?

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Fenella.2634" said:

> As I said earlier, the devs seriously lampshade Malyck's humanoid looks in the lore book in the Durmand Priory. That is not a coincidence. There must be something more behind it than the commonly known Ventari tale. Either that, or Malyck turns out to be an amnesiac Sylvari from the Grove who just happens to have forgotten the Pale Tree. :lol:

>

> The whole story with the tree seed, Ronan and Ventari is so full of unusual and unlikely events, it's hard to imagine a similar group of adventurers just so happened to have the exact same idea at the same time. (Cause trees need time to grow. If another tree had been planted centuries earlier or later than our Pale Tree, Malyck couldn't have been around at the same time as our Sylvaris.)

>

> So, until we get further info, especially on Malyck, I keep my doubts about the Ventari version. I suspect that for whatever reason the general humanoid and canine forms of tree offspring was Mordremoth's choice, not the Pale Tree's.

 

FYI the devs stated they had written an arc for Mallyck, but decided it wasn't able to be implemented for various reasons (story direction, time, resources etc etc). So yes there is more to the story and no doubt much of the queries are covered, although whether the story ever comes to light or in the originally conceived form, is another matter.

[Fenella.2634]

Yes. And also, they say that even though we may not get to play the story anytime soon (if at all), the lore related to it is still valid. So, whatever they had in mind for Malyck and for all the reasonings around him is still true and in the background, even though we might not be able to see the whole picture yet.

[Dace.8173]

There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid. They would really only come in Ausra or Charr if the trees that create Sylvari were just replicating a genetic code. But it doesn't appear to be replication.

 

Basically, the Sylvari as a unique genetic race in the same way that humans, Asura, Charr, Kodan, Tengu, the Forgotten, dwarves etc etc etc are all unique genetic races. Trying to come up with some kind of reason outside of that is more work than is required to explain them. This, of course, could all change down the road if they want to but I have doubts that it will change for GW2. Introducing Sylvari Ausra and Charr into the mix will just create an in-game demand for them and that's just not a worthwhile thing to get mired in.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid.

The trouble with that is we already have what amounts to [non-humanoid sylvari.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sylvan_Hound) If the Pale Tree can do humans and dogs, charr and asura shouldn't be a stretch.

 

[perilisk.1874]

Not sure an in-game answer is required. Just chalk it up to art budget.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > A better question would probably be why we don’t see any “non-human” Mordrem. We either see the “evil Sylvari” versions or corrupt Maguuma monsters.

> > >

> > > Given the diverse nature of The Pact you’d think we’d see replicas of all the other races as Modrem, courtesy of the spawning pod thingies.

> >

> > Well we kinda do. We see a blighted Rytlock, Mordrem Clones of Zoija, and there is a blighted Eir too.

>

> Special, unique story-based encounters, yes. I’m talking about Mordremoth’s forces in general.

>

Going to have to agree with Konig. Though I suspect it’s just another casualty of not having enough time to design and implement the expansion.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > The lack of mordrem charr, norn, human, and asura is a bit strange for HoT, tbh. It might have to do with the time span, the entirety of HoT only took place over three months and sylvari take a while to grow. Mordremoth had access to hylek and saurians for longer than the Pact soldiers. We only got to see clones of Zojja and Eir at the end, so it wouldn't be too surprising that was roughly how long it'd take for Mordremoth to create clones from newly encountered species.

> >

> > (the Blighted Eir and Rytlock that @"Tyson.5160" mentions, though, were in the Dream and thus not actual mordrem)

>

> Yeah I was gonna mention they were in a dream state, Eir and Garm look partially like Mordrem, with the dark bark, however Rytlock and Tybalt have no change except for the orange eyes. Same can be said for most of the blighted dream mobs except for the boss mobs themselves.

 

Yeah, it's kind of interesting and disappointing that only Eir, Garm, Pale Tree, and Trahearne are in a "half mordrem" state. Would have been awesome if the Logan and Zojja clones were too, and a number of the sylvari.

 

Or at least not having the mordrem Zojja/Logan be in a green-tinted suit of armor/magitech. >.> Maybe just slap them in Harbinger of Mordremoth outfit even. They gave the hylek and saurians actual bark textures, but I'm pretty sure mordrem Zojja/Logan effectively amount to the poly-luminescent green infusion aura in the end...

[Dace.8173]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid.

> The trouble with that is we already have what amounts to [non-humanoid sylvari.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sylvan_Hound) If the Pale Tree can do humans and dogs, charr and asura shouldn't be a stretch.

>

 

It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari. The Sylvari have a defined set of genetic traits and the Sylvan hounds have genetic traits. Just like humans, Norn, Charr, and Asuran. Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn. Or Charr that is as small as an Ausran. Within the realm of fiction, anything is possible but within the realm of a given universe that is created most things have a defined set of traits and characteristics that defines what they are.

 

There may also be no reason for the Pale Tree to want to create a new plant-based race. Just because the Pale Tree has the power to do so does not mean it has the inclination to do so. At present, the Sylvari pretty much do everything she needs or wants them to do. There is no inherent need to create a new race of plant type beings. From a fictional writing standpoint, you really don't want to go down the road of Sylvari EVERYTHING!!! Once you start creating Sylvari Charr, Norn, Ausran, Kodan, Dwarves the original concept of Sylvari starts to become diluted. Then you have to start answering the question of "ok so if there are Sylvari Charr then how come I don't have a Sylvari Tengu?" When you keep it to a singular set of clearly defined traits, Sylvari as being humanoid in nature, you preserve the unique nature of it while at the same time not having to worry needing to create a bunch more or answer the question of why there are 6 kinds of Sylvari but not this 7th and 8th kind (everyone has their own favorite race that I'm sure they would love to combine with Sylvari that goes well beyond Ausra and Charr).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari.

 

That is splitting hairs considering other dragon minions. Mordrem can be be of hylek or saurian but they're still mordrem. Icebrood can be of troll, wolf, or norn, but they're still icebrood.

 

Whether they are actively called "sylvari" or not, the sylvan hounds and sylvari are both mordrem who do not serve Mordremoth, in the end; and just as masterless risen are called unchained regardless of original species, it can be said all "purified mordrem" are sylvari.

 

Otherwise, you're argument is effectively saying Malyck wouldn't be a sylvari, either, because sylvari are only "mordrem created by the Pale Tree which are designed after humans."

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn.

 

It is more like asking why there are no risen dredge, or icebrood wurms, or branded harpies, due to the magical origins, rather than biological origins, of sylvari.

 

Sylvari are, ultimately, just "mordrem who were created by a purified Blighting Tree". Not a biologically distinct species like charr, asura, humans, or even treants and jacarandas.

[deatine.2498]

Well I thought it makes sense. The blighting trees make what they "know". They had no Charr or Asura as blueprints when they started. So like the Pale Tree, they make things that look vaguely human, or like the other critters that are very common in that areas.

I suppose if they had won, they might have started to make Modrem similar to the species that invaded the Jungle during the fight against Modremoth.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

well... I just had an elightened moment.

 

There are mordrem that are not human or animal based. In fact, they look so much like the original that a lot of people probably assume them to be other players:

mordrem menders

 

They look like asura, they behave like asura, they are asura.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> well... I just had an elightened moment.

>

> There are mordrem that are not human or animal based. In fact, they look so much like the original that a lot of people probably assume them to be other players:

> mordrem menders

>

> They look like asura, they behave like asura, they are asura.

>

>

 

Fun fact: Mordrem Menders and Mordrem Grunts use troll rigging, and the latter are even sometimes called trolls.

 

Mordrem Trolls, on the other hand, are actual trolls that were corrupted (same with the wolves).

[Dace.8173]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari.

>

> That is splitting hairs considering other dragon minions. Mordrem can be be of hylek or saurian but they're still mordrem. Icebrood can be of troll, wolf, or norn, but they're still icebrood.

>

> Whether they are actively called "sylvari" or not, the sylvan hounds and sylvari are both mordrem who do not serve Mordremoth, in the end; and just as masterless risen are called unchained regardless of original species, it can be said all "purified mordrem" are sylvari.

>

> Otherwise, you're argument is effectively saying Malyck wouldn't be a sylvari, either, because sylvari are only "mordrem created by the Pale Tree which are designed after humans."

>

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn.

>

> It is more like asking why there are no risen dredge, or icebrood wurms, or branded harpies, due to the magical origins, rather than biological origins, of sylvari.

>

> Sylvari are, ultimately, just "mordrem who were created by a purified Blighting Tree". Not a biologically distinct species like charr, asura, humans, or even treants and jacarandas.

 

No, not splitting hairs. Mordrem are created, not born. There isn't a Mordrem race, in the same way that there isn't a Risen race. They are all created via the magic of their respective Elder Dragon. The Sylvari, on the other hand, are a unique race. They are born, not through the means common to humans but they are still born. The same applies to Icebrood. They are created, not born. Thus you can't compare them to Sylvari as a point of reference. Claiming that Sylvan Hounds and Sylvari are Mordrem is not supported by the material as, and this is important, Mordrem are creatures that are created not born. While the Sylvari were originally created to be minions of they were not created as Mordrem. If they were they would be called as such. When a Sylvari becomes a Mordrem they take on clearly distinct traits that separate them from being Sylvari, just like everything else that is corrupted into a Mordrem.

 

Just because they have a similar genesis does not mean you can lump them all into the same category and call it a day. Thus my argument does say Malyck can't be Sylvari. He clearly is. The fact that he came from a separate Pale Tree indicates that the Sylvari are their own unique race and are not just another brand of Mordrem. Sylvari are 100% a unique and distinct biological species.

 

If ANet wanted them to just be Mordrem they would have labeled them as such. They have maintained a clear distinction.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Claiming that Sylvan Hounds and Sylvari are Mordrem is not supported by the material as, and this is important, Mordrem are creatures that are created not born.

 

Sylvari are created too, not born. That's why when a pod opens up to reveal a sylvari, it isn't said that the sylvari is born but they "awaken". Mordrem are created in pods just like sylvari are, though the form those pods take differ. For example, if you play the final HoT story instance, the mordrem pop out of the [blighting pods](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blighting_Pod) that are all around the area.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> While the Sylvari were originally created to be minions of they were not created as Mordrem. If they were they would be called as such. When a Sylvari becomes a Mordrem they take on clearly distinct traits that separate them from being Sylvari, just like everything else that is corrupted into a Mordrem.

 

Sylvari actually are never corrupted; they never "become mordrem" - thanks to the Dream. They succumbed to whispers, but those whispers were not corruption, and when those whispers cease the sylvari [can return](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight#Dialogue) to their [original selves](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Solitary_Sylvari). But that's another topic entirely.

 

The reason sylvari appearances change is already confirmed to be due to the sylvari's own ability to change appearances, which we see with Canach, Scarlet, and Caithe in the main story (though those who didn't play S1 wouldn't know such for Canach very well).

 

Sylvari were originally meant to be minions in that they were created by a purified Blighting Tree; the process of their creation is ultimately the same as with mordrem, though less hostile. They are as much mordrem as unchained are risen and as [Crystal Guardians](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Guardian), [Crystal Spiders](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Spider), and [Facets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Distorted_Facet.jpg) are branded; the difference between the two groups is merely the question of "are they enslaved to an Elder Dragon?"

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> If ANet wanted them to just be Mordrem they would have labeled them as such. They have maintained a clear distinction.

 

Indeed, and that distinction is the same that exists between risen and unchained. One is enslaved to an Elder Dragon's will, the other isn't. It's why they went and started calling post-PS risen "unchained". Though unchained aren't necessarily "purified" as sylvari are, but ended up in a similar state since without an Elder Dragon to enslave their will, they've effectively become autonomous - just as sylvari are.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think the biggest reason Sylvari are humanoid (and why they continue to be humanoid) is that there has been no "need" for additional blueprints since the first try was so successful. Nature operates on a system of energy costs, and for an apple tree to decide to grow bananas would be a massive energy sink.

 

Another example? A cereal factory. A cereal factory _could_ conceivably make a new type of cereal on their line, but it would require the purchase of new machine parts and different ingredients. If the current cereal is selling well enough/fulfilling the needs of the company, there is no demand for a new type and therefore no motivation to pay the cost.

 

Like new cereal, weirdly-shaped Sylvari are a potentiality in the game, but their existence is currently without motivation. Some roleplayers have danced around this by using magic spells, potions, or the plant-forming abilities of Sylvari Menders and Shapers (Sylvan doctors, architects and landscapers) to add peculiar characteristics to their characters. So, while the Pale Tree herself may not invest heaps of effort into creating things like Charr and Asura, individual Sylvari may seek the adjustments themselves.

 

The question isn't really 'why aren't' so much as 'why would'.

[Tyson.5160]

The way I see the Pale Tree and the Blighting trees are like a photo copier . You can take an image on a piece of paper and make a bunch of copies. Now what if that photo copier was sentient and had free will, like the Pale Tree free of Mordremoth’s control. The Pale Tree has the abilities like the Blighting trees, but instead it wants to make its own creation, the Sylvari, based off of other Bipedal entities. What’s rather curious is how Sylvari’s have souls, but that’s s rather complicated topic, that Inprefer not to go into.

[Matt H.6142]

Be prepared for much of the same with the branded and icebrood.