What is the best theory on MMORPG equipment design?

[Rognik.2579]

I was about to comment on GW2's approach on gear before @"Westenev.5289" beat me to it. At least at launch, you could get the best gear (exotic at the time) through any method you choose.

 

Drops: Whether it's a random drop from a monster or loot out of a chest, there were various ways to get any sort of gear. The downside is that you might get an armor class or weapon type that you can't use, or stats that you don't want. The upside is that you never have to take a break to get new gear. Even the level required for the gear could be randomized, but the stats on the gear are proportional.

 

Crafting: I didn't look at crafting gear until long after I had leveled my first character, which says how well the drop method could work. However, my character was also mainly decked out in rares (yellow), which was not the best gear. The upside of this is you have a lot more control over the gear you get, and what stats are on the gear. Downside is that each level of the gear is a set increment, it takes time out of your exploration to make gear and finding some of the ingredients are hard to find. T3 and T4 are the rarest to find, personally, especially leather or cloth. You also need a certain level of crafting before you can craft certain tiers of equipment, which can be a lot if you haven't kept up in the levels.

 

Questing: This one is hard to discuss in GW2 terms, since there is no traditional questing. In the base game, you could complete event quests and get a special merchant at the end selling unique weapon skins (before the wardrobe was added) or unique recipes. I suppose a similar effect comes from champion boxes, but that's little different from the drop method above. As such, the best gear you could buy was in Orr after freeing the various temples.

 

Adding the ascended tier changed the loot dynamic, but I'm not sure if it's worth discussing or not. Tag me if you want me to discuss how that progressed.

[joneirikb.7506]

Just to clarify something: What I really liked in GW1 and somewhat in GW2 is that you can get your basic gear easily/cheaply straight away once you reach max level (itself no big chore) and get on with playing. There are lots of lots of alternatives with different looks/skins/rarity/etc for those interested in that, while those like me can ignore them completely (never bothered even looking at a single specialty armor in gw1).

 

Where I liked GW1 better than GW2 in this topic, is that I strongly dislike gw2's system of locking stats to gear, especially to armor/weapons. Which means I constantly have to swap them out (with skins/runes/sigils etc) every time I want to try a new build, play-style or try variations of such.

 

So for me, the distribution method used in GW1/2 is already good enough. It's the mechanics of what they've lumped onto what gear and how they handle stats that triggers me :p (Thankfully I got plenty of celestial gear so I can ignore this most of the time). Essentially I don't really care about loot dispensers etc, I want the basic gear to make and test builds/play-styles available at all times, and the moment that is locked behind grind/rng or any other such "limitation" I get annoyed and get tempted to play something else (preferably not mmorpg). But I have no problem at all if the game has a bunch of ways to get fancier looking, more exclusive versions or whatever that doesn't offer any inherent (big) advantage (I'm all ok with exotics, don't need ascended).

 

Edit: Yes, I'm one of those few players that actually would be OK with using the PVP amulet system in the entire game: PVP, WVW, PVE: open world, fractals, dungeons, raids, whatever!

[Urud.4925]

Another option not listed in the first post, was in RaiderZ: in that game you only had NPCs that could craft equipment. Your job was to go around finding the needed mats (you knew more or less from which mobs they dropped). I didn't like it much though. As I don't like any of the 3 other ways you described.

The idea that a player can get the right mats in few minutes while another might need months is unfair. That reminds me of dungeon runs that I did with my guild mates in Aion: one of them got the best weapon as drop in her first run, while I got it after my 37th run.

Another way was in Uncharted Waters Online: the cheap equipment could be bought from NPCs, but the best one (weapons, armors, food, ships, everything) could be only crafted by players. The crafting was the best one that I found in a MMO, as concept, but it was terribly grindy. And every gear took damage over time, so you had to replace it continuously (not good for very nice skins).

 

I definitely like more how it works in GW2. The best gear is obtainable with a 100% rate through crafting (that I don't find boring or particularly grindy), but if you want to try your luck, you can farm world bosses/fractals. Thank you Anet.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I must say that I always liked random drops and trade, but I think we need multiple paths to the best gear.

 

Rare, tradable legendary drops would be great. I remember from games like Diablo 1 that I kept replaying it to get those rare drops with the highest stats. It was very addicting to take rare drops home and show it to Deckard Cain to identify. But this addictiveness is not always a good thing of course as it encourages players to do content over and over again. (grindy) I'm very much in favor of keeping items tradable here, allowing players who get unfavorable drops to sell them at the auction house and buy stats of their choice instead.

 

However, I also like unique items which are bound to achievements and cannot be traded. This gives players the bragging rights that they themselves completed the achievement that allows them to run around with their new shinies. Tradability would break this.

 

Crafting always has been the least favourite option for me. Especially when crafted items cannot be traded, as is the case with the highes-end items in GW2. It tends to very expensive and timegated, and complicated to learn/level.

 

 

[Rise.8259]

GW2 does not have an AC style system.

AC was truly randomized loot creation.

GW has a table of predetermined equipment types with stat combinations and it's just random which ones you will get.

AC also did not have a rating system for loot that made some rare and others common.

 

There's no real sense of exploration and discovery in the GW2 item system because I am not finding anything I can't easily buy off the market.

 

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > I prefer "none of the above."

> >

> > Top tier equipment should be a plateau - everyone on an even level. Finding gear is not about upgrading, but about specializing with the gear set that fits your build. Gear should constantly break down and need replaced, forcing people to constantly make/find new stuff, thus driving a natural economy. Think Shadowbane or EVE Online's systems.

>

> EVE is a crafting based system where players make the best stuff. So you didn't actually choose "none of the above" as your preference.

>

>

 

Ummm... that IS "none of above." #confused

[Leo G.4501]

Rather than reminiscing of other games and their systems, I'd ask if there are any games with a particular flavor. I remember something like this in the Balder's gate video games, but no as generic... But is there something out there where the gear all has variables pertaining to stats, special effects (such as causing status or casting some sort of effect or enchantment), appearance, quality and inherent skills (such as improving attack speed or upgrading proficiency) and then have all those variables be random?

 

Although I'm not a huge fan of gear in the first place, it's the topic and I'm curious.

 

Another gear design not spoken of here was in classic Blade and Soul. A lot of the gear you got from the story (and your first training weapon) was your end game gear... You just had to go through the process of upgrading said gear by fusing/feeding other gear to it. It was a nice system but they scrapped it and made it "simpler". There were other problems with it (such as the linear progression) they could have fixed but went the boring route.

[Algreg.3629]

you should bring up Eve online. Almost every item in the game has had some player involvement in its creation at some point. Also, everything is destructible and lootable, a real sandbox.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

The best system is one where you can craft the best stuff, but rare stuff can be dropped with something unique that you can only find on that thing. And everything can be upgraded into the best stuff. A mix of crafting, looting and upgrading.

[Rise.8259]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > I prefer "none of the above."

> > >

> > > Top tier equipment should be a plateau - everyone on an even level. Finding gear is not about upgrading, but about specializing with the gear set that fits your build. Gear should constantly break down and need replaced, forcing people to constantly make/find new stuff, thus driving a natural economy. Think Shadowbane or EVE Online's systems.

> >

> > EVE is a crafting based system where players make the best stuff. So you didn't actually choose "none of the above" as your preference.

> >

> >

>

> Ummm... that IS "none of above." #confused

 

You cited Eve as an example of a system you'd prefer.

But EVE's system is based on the same concept as Ultima Online - top equipment is player crafted, not randomly generated or quest gained.

So you really did not prefer none of the above, but you preferred UO's system.

 

[Rhyse.8179]

The difference is there is no "Best." The highest level ships are readily attainable, and each one has it's niche and counter. A battleship can fall to a frigate, or vice versa, if they are fitted with the appropriate counters. It's a plateau. What's best one month may be cannon fodder next month as your enemies develop and deploy counter tactics. The only hill to climb is one of expense, which any player can easily surmount after about 6 months.

 

The other major difference is that everything is destructible. Gear is a cycle you participate in, not just a thing you obtain. Everything can be destroyed... and eventually will be, if you ever take it out of the hangar and use it. Having good gear is thus a matter of supply lines and infrastructure - AKA, gameplay. Getting a BIS for your spec and then moving on is not a thing that happens.

 

Saying it's the same just because it's player crafted misses all the important things about it.

[Ephemiel.5694]

I don't understand why people like GW2's gear system.

 

There's no goal to gain, no mountain to climb except the tiny [although annoying] hill to make/get Ascended. Someone that started playing the moment the game launch and got a lv 80 exotic with the right stats needed NOTHING else in that slot till Ascended equipment was even added.

 

How is that fun or interesting in any way, especially when we have games where the stat combinations matters far more or when players themselves have to create the top gear?

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> I don't understand why people like GW2's gear system.

>

> There's no goal to gain, no mountain to climb except the tiny [although annoying] hill to make/get Ascended. Someone that started playing the moment the game launch and got a lv 80 exotic with the right stats needed NOTHING else in that slot till Ascended equipment was even added.

>

> How is that fun or interesting in any way, especially when we have games where the stat combinations matters far more or when players themselves have to create the top gear?

 

Thats a perception problem most people have..... have to be strung along with the promise of something just to be motivated to take action. But the big overarching issue with that is it creates an endless loop of chasing "the next thing" while simultaneously devaluing what you've already obtained. A net result of this is never being satisfied with an accomplishment for longer then the dopamine hit to wear off. This is how Grind games manage success, without really creating anything of real, sustained value to the players.

 

Games USED to be based mostly around mastering mechanics, and opening new avenues to problem solving. But most modern games try to pass what amounts to a second/third job as "progression", which fools most capitalist based societies as their trained to value attainment as a measure of success. If you look at most MMOs, and things that use MMO-styled progression models, they're explicitly designed to be impractical, if not utterly unattainable to at least 50% of the population. The top ~10% reach those "goals" by dedicating all of their free time toward it, or in some cases try to etch out a living around it (youtubers, streamers, and esports).

 

But thats not whats really telling about this situation..... its the fact that the level of enjoyment in the game play itself is rarely brought into question, and the majority of the discussion revolves around the value the rewards, the types of rewards, and barriers to those rewards. There are thousands of problems to be resolved in this game, but the majority of players only focus on a small % of that... and those just happen to be the ones with the highest perceived reward value.

I've long used Minecraft as a Turing Test for players, and their method of goal management. And I intentionally use Turing Test as an analog, because there are a significant amount of players who only act if given instructions, and in some cases, struggle with abstract concepts.

 

 

And just because I find it both relevant, and a little sad..... there is a Louis CK bit about Cell phones that, while played up for emphasis, eerily encapsulates the mindset of a modern teenager, and shares a lot of parallels with the attitude of a lot of gamers. "Need the ability to be yourself, and not being doing something. The ability to sit there, and be a person.". And the scary part is, most players "can't not be doing something" for more then a few seconds. Just constantly trying to sift through information about things their wanna do, and not remembering the things they've already done unless it becomes relevant to something they haven't done. Or can't stop to have a conversation unless they're in a place where they farm without thinking.

 

Or how the worst possible feeling a person can have, comes from having "down time" that they don't know what to do with. And it just eats you up inside knowing you could be doing something Productive with your time (farming leather)... but it turns out that thing is actually the least productive thing you could be doing (could be at a job earning more money). But you won't go do that because that job takes a lot of effort..... and leather farming is easy. But you're still getting that hit when you see the little item drop thingly above the mini map, telling you that you got something. And you love to see that stuff amass. And in that hour of farming, you've made a whole 1-2g, but you could had made 167g doing a real job.

 

 

I recommend looking into a bit about game design in relation to things like Power Fantasy, Skinner boxes, Wish fulfillment, and skill development. Most players like different things, but the lack of awareness of what these things really are is what contributes to this collective state of depression in "hardcore" players.

[Sarrs.4831]

I like Path of Exile's system

 

-You build towards a key affix from a Temple, a Master or soon a Delve

-You then use a basic currency item to add a random affix, and then a rarer currency item to upgrade the item to a rare, adding a random affix in the process

-You then use a Master to lock half of the affixes down using a crafting affix, and then maybe more crafting affixes to narrow the affix range

-You then use an Essence to reroll the other half of the affixes, with an assured affix from the Essence

-You then might use a Master to craft an affix, or use extremely rare and expensive Exalted Orbs to add affixes

-And then you use armor/weapon stones to raise the quality of the item, then jeweller's orbs to maximize the sockets, then fusing orbs to link all the sockets, then chromatic orbs to get the sockets to be the right color

-And then you either grind Labyrinth endlessly to try to get the right enchantment on it for your character, or the skill you're using (1/340 chance to get the right one!), or you take it to the Vaal Temple, put it in the Corruption Chamber and have a 50/50 chance of deleting your item.

 

By the time you have the wallet to carry out this process, you can basically destroy any challenge the game has to offer you. But it's a good system, because the dream's always there!

 

Genuinely though, I adore random systems. Everyone dislikes the WoW system by which items can receive random modifications, but I really like it because that kind of randomization opens up options for the players. In Warlords of Draenor I got a triple mod item, which was strong enough for Assassination that I could play it for quite a while instead of Subtlety, while we were at a stage of the raid with multiple bosses that really rewarded Assassination's playstyle.

 

I adore games which give you a random toolkit and you have to work out the best way to arrange your tools, rather than games which give you all the 'options', which ultimately result in there being 'one right answer'. This is a niche which is insanely difficult for an MMO to fill, sadly, as being able to trade removes this 'use what you find' structure.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> I don't understand why people like GW2's gear system.

>

> There's no goal to gain, no mountain to climb except the tiny [although annoying] hill to make/get Ascended. Someone that started playing the moment the game launch and got a lv 80 exotic with the right stats needed NOTHING else in that slot till Ascended equipment was even added.

>

> How is that fun or interesting in any way, especially when we have games where the stat combinations matters far more or when players themselves have to create the top gear?

 

Honestly it is a breath of fresh air. I've played a couple of MMOs (Phantasy Star Universe, Runescape, DCUO) where all you would ever do in the game is grind for the next gear tier. If you didn't have the best stuff, you'd get stomped by the people who did. In a lot of them the best gear was dropped randomly and rarely, so either you got lucky or you worked a second job to afford it. I hear this problem gets even worse in other games.

 

The advantages to the GW2 system are many. It is reliable to acquire certain stats, approachable through many directions, realistically achievable for most players, friendly to alternate builds and alternate toons, makes the barrier to entry for all game content comparatively minimal, it drives the economy forward, it encourages competitiveness and skill over a gear grind, and the infusions give a good place to dump money if one is so inclined to do so.

 

Stopping at exotic was way too easy, which is why Anet added ascended in the first place. But, a lot of players were sick of having to grind endlessly for gear just so they'd be allowed to grind endlessly for the next set of gear.

[Rise.8259]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> The difference is there is no "Best." The highest level ships are readily attainable, and each one has it's niche and counter. A battleship can fall to a frigate, or vice versa, if they are fitted with the appropriate counters.

 

You're conflating two unrelated issues together.

 

The best versions of each ship available still comes from players, just like UO.

 

The fact that one equipment is not outright better than another is a gameplay design issue and not a loot/crafting design issue. You can have an UO style crafting/harvesting system and still have a different equipment balance design. And vise versa.

 

This is proven by the fact that Eve could make the best versions of ships available through quests or random drops while still keeping intact the gameplay design whereby certain ships have inherent advantages against another. The one concept does not depend on the other to exist.

 

Eve still has UO's core harvesting and crafting concept, it just different game design in other ways to go along with that.

 

>It's a plateau.

 

You're committing a logical error here by believing only Eve's system can have a plateau, failing to recognize that all MMORPGs essentially have a plateau point until new content comes out that raises the bar.

Any MMORPG that allows you to reach full build technically has a plateau.

 

When and how you reach that plateau is the issue. Technically all MMORPGs have a theoretical plateau point of parity unless they have mechanics which allow only a limited number of players to be more powerful than the rest of the population, but I can't think of any offhand that operate that way.

 

Now, practically, some MMORPGs don't have a plateau because the grind is so impactical that it seems neverending so only a small percentage of the population can reach the top, but even then there are still plenty of MMORPGs that have reasonable grinds that result in a plateau - and it happens regardless of what kind of loot/crafting system they use.

 

So you cannot use the concept of a plateau to accurately try to talk about what makes Eve different. Especially since it has nothing to do with Eve's crafting system. All crafting systems can be made to plateau either quickly or practically never. You need more clear terminology and better logical analysis to accurately describe Eve. Clear and accurate analysis shows why their crafting/loot/harvest system is the same core concept UO uses.

 

> The other major difference is that everything is destructible.

 

Equipment is destructible and lootable in UO too. Again we see EVE is based off the UO core crafting design.

 

 

 

[Urud.4925]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> I don't understand why people like GW2's gear system.

>

> There's no goal to gain, no mountain to climb except the tiny [although annoying] hill to make/get Ascended. Someone that started playing the moment the game launch and got a lv 80 exotic with the right stats needed NOTHING else in that slot till Ascended equipment was even added.

>

> How is that fun or interesting in any way, especially when we have games where the stat combinations matters far more or when players themselves have to create the top gear?

 

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" put it very well.

From my experience, I can tell you what happens in MMO that lazily put a new gear (may be even with the same skin, just a different colour and few stat increase) every 4 months:

- veteran/semi-veteran players with enough gold/free time will rush to acquire this new gear ASAP, to crush other players/brag in PvE before the others.

- casual players will start to gather the required coins/token/mats, but a new gear (with different coins/tokens) will be introduced eventually, before they'll be able to finish the previous one.

- the gap between whales or simply kids with a lot of free time and casual players will increase.

- at some point, the gap will be too wide, so the game will handle good gear for free to new players, since they wouldn't be able to catch up with the old players, making the ppl who farmed hard for that gear, upset.

- prices will raise, since less people will be really geared, so new or returning players won't have enough money to buy the runes/stones to enchant their gear, and they will be rejected in group instances, because too weak.

- casual players will realise that they will never catch up the old players, so they will slowly leave the game.

- the playerbase will slowly drop, since there will be more recent and appealing games in the meantime and no new player will start to play a game where it's impossible to compete with old players.

- the publisher has a lower revenue, so he will start to add important items/end-game gear to the cash shop (addicted players will buy it anyway).

- more ppl will quit, as the game becomes p2w.

- server merges until the last one will be shut down.

 

There are already A LOT of such games. If you like it, it's fine, you have plenty of choice. Even the random loot is very common in other MMOs. GW2 is a rare exception, just leave it as it is. Players wouldn't come back to GW2 after a hiatus of years, if we also had a progression for the gear.

[Gehenna.3625]

The problem I have with gear in GW2 is mostly the point that most stat combinations are sub par in general so only 2 or 3 are used. This is in part due to the point that classes in GW2 are so poorly defined that the same stats work well across them all. As much as high level fractals and raids are more specific about gear and roles, it doesn't change that for 99% of the game you can play any class with berserker gear and do just fine.

 

When everything is the same, nothing matters. That is the problem. In the end they're all DPS classes and for most of the content of the game. And since defensive stats are less valuable due to dodging and easy ressing, there is little that can compete with the berserker stats. You could in some cases go full condition but then that's as far as it goes mostly. And even that is not strictly necessary. Also heavy, medium or light armour are mostly visual. Heavy gives a bit more protection but again, it's a defensive element that is negated by dodging mostly. Considering the amount of damage you take, the difference isn't that noticeable or useful.

 

I'm not saying that GW2 should have a trinity, cause that wouldn't work, but I really wish that classes were more defined and not so interchangeable in most content.

[Rinn.2375]

Personally I like the crafting in GW1 more than any MMO I saw. It's reliable and you can understand it really quickly, etc. And of course it's very immersive too. I really don't understand that why on Tyria want a hero who killed two elder dragons and a kitten GOD want to craft a backpack and not just buy it from a grandmaster craftmaster master?!

[maddoctor.2738]

I don't like gear in MMORPGs that is hard to acquire and involves a heavy grind, even worse if I have to re-do a similar grind every time a new expansion is released and increases the level cap. Unless it has a unique looking skin. There is nothing more boring in a game when you have to constantly chase new gear, when you want to play different builds, when the game has too many gear tiers, or when expansions are released. I'd rather play the content of the game, rather than grind/craft in order to play said content. Which is also why I absolutely hate a long leveling process. Easy to reach end level, easy to reach end gear, more fun to actually play the game.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Design eh.....

 

My ideal mmorpg would be one that provide unique or unique-like stats, not any kind of fixed stats. Naturally, super rare boss drop and crafting with super rare chance to get top tier grade item and then combine with a chance of getting the ideal stats or enhance it with ideal stats. A ideal fantasy world.

 

Then adding a bit of hardcore elements to it to make sure those items don't become a common items over the years, hardcore elements like item break X number of time will become permanent broken.

 

However, nowdays, most games adapt pre defined stats for easy balance and yet many of them fail at balance. Lol.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> The problem I have with gear in GW2 is mostly the point that most stat combinations are sub par in general so only 2 or 3 are used. This is in part due to the point that classes in GW2 are so poorly defined that the same stats work well across them all. As much as high level fractals and raids are more specific about gear and roles, it doesn't change that for 99% of the game you can play any class with berserker gear and do just fine.

>

> When everything is the same, nothing matters. That is the problem. In the end they're all DPS classes and for most of the content of the game. And since defensive stats are less valuable due to dodging and easy ressing, there is little that can compete with the berserker stats. You could in some cases go full condition but then that's as far as it goes mostly. And even that is not strictly necessary. Also heavy, medium or light armour are mostly visual. Heavy gives a bit more protection but again, it's a defensive element that is negated by dodging mostly. Considering the amount of damage you take, the difference isn't that noticeable or useful.

>

> I'm not saying that GW2 should have a trinity, cause that wouldn't work, but I really wish that classes were more defined and not so interchangeable in most content.

 

What you think is the problem, isn't the problem. On a fundamental level, the buildcraft allows for a multitude of functional combinations to fill a large number of roles. Where they differ is that each class has a different power coefficient for these stats based on what its traits are like. In some cases, theres enough baseline power to skip a stat investment and still get good performance. Despite the performance disparity that exists between class/builds, the simple fact remains that Roles are Roles, and Roles are what fights/encounters are designed around. Would your argument still be valid if 2 classes were specifically made to do the exact same thing? After all, they're both highly distinct, they just aren't unique within the system.

 

The problem is too much of Encounter designs emphasize damage..... hence damage focused stats become the most efficient method of meeting that requirement. Its exposing the fallacy created of video game RPGs ever since MMOs shifted focus to combat over everything else; Damage is King, and solves all problems if even remotely allowed. Trinity Class design came about as a direct result of extremely limited AI behavior, in an equally limited play space of mechanics. What is the purpose of the Tank? What is the purpose of the Healer? What happens if the enemy simply ignores the tank, and goes after the healers? That entire structure exists to support the viability of Glass Cannons; and Glass cannons (aka DPS slots) are brought into every fight, because damage is how you beat the enemy.

 

The crowning achievement of GW2 raids is the inadvertent discovery of Role Compression. You can easily tell between the raid designs themselves, and various blurbs from the Devs, that each raid makes specific mechanical demands of the Group. Not individual players, but the group as an aggregate. And in every single one of them, Damage is a major requirement, as evidenced by phases based on HP, Rage timers, and higher attrition potential of enemies in protracted fights. Now thats pretty standard for other MMO raids. But unlike more rigid class structures, we don't have to dedicate an entire team slot to address a specific mechanic, but have one of the players "dip" into whatevers needed to meet the requirement, and allocate the rest of the build toward other requirements. ChronoTank is 3 Roles in one Slot.... Tank, Damage Buffs (Quick/Alacrity, but not Might cap), and Group defense. Druid fills 3 roles with Might Capping, Healing, and Damage buffs. Some overlaps in concept, but stacks in practice. A second Support Chrono is part of every Raid team, due to the 5 target cap inside of a Group size of 10. The net result is 3 players building a support structure that normally takes 5 (or half a 10-man group); and the ONLY reason its not 2, is because theres a target limit on most skills. However, DPS slots aren't dedicated DPS either- as many bring additional group buffs or control mechanics to address encounter specific problems without compromising the core comp. But whats really ironic is that a 10-man raid in WoW, while having 5 Support type slots, only 2 are dedicated to filling Tank and Healing, while the other 3 are Off-spec with DPS, supporting 5 dedicated DPS slots.

 

Given their Raids having similar requirements of the groups, it also shows how much more Functional Roles are bound to Classes in WoW, and creates a more complicated solution to an otherwise identical problem. GW2's buildcraft offers a much more efficient solution, and has more bandwidth to address additional requirements before it starts interfering with the Core Comp. What I take issue with is how the Devs are fighting to force a more complicated group comp as a way to force more classes into the meta; but not realizing the emphasis on DPS to win pretty much every fight is what lead to the role compression in the first place. This whole exercise with the Support classes is the players finding ways to squeeze in more DPS, so the fights go smoother. Think about it.... there are only 2 non-story controlled types of fights in this game. Ones where you kill things to move forward, and ones where you skip fights so you don't have to waste time on them while moving forward. Guess which ones are most often found?

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Rinn.2375" said:

> Personally I like the crafting in GW1 more than any MMO I saw. It's reliable and you can understand it really quickly, etc. And of course it's very immersive too. I really don't understand that why on Tyria want a hero who killed two elder dragons and a kitten GOD want to craft a backpack and not just buy it from a grandmaster craftmaster master?!

 

prolly for the same reason scroungy political leaders do not even give him a reasonable town house for all his efforts :P

[Aerronix.9752]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> I always liked to craft stuff, until i played gw2, its the 1st mmo where im avoiding it due how bad it feels to me... tks Anet for making the most boooooring crafting system ;P i ever saw.

>

> I always did like UO crafting scheme, gw2 imo felt Anet was lost adding ascended stuff cause they made it has a panic tier, since players were doing exotic must faster than Anet was expecting that would take, and the market got flooded in the first months.

> Still ascended is a mess, some from laurers and limited to certain stats only... some trough crafting where u need to wiki where to obtain recipe for it, bit messy....part of the crafting beign messy m8 be also to do it how rewards in this game feel wayy to free and come out of nowhere :\

>

 

Oddly GW2 is the first MMO I have enjoyed crafting... 14 years of WoW, hated crafting | 2 years of Rifts, hated crafting | 1 year of ESO, hating crafting | others as well but GW2 is the first one I have found myself spending a lot of time on and enjoying... I am guess its just personal preference and perception is reality.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Aerronix.9752, indeed, altough if ANet abolished item drops from mobs for raw materials only i think that would make it more seamless :\, like everything needs to be crafted way, i think it would help the system itself.

 

But the matrioska items effect also need to end, they need to give more direct rewards and loot towards raw materials than the mess of items, bags, boxes we have now.