PvP Now Is Not Fun

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Remove the „now“

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I have to kinda agree, for me, maybe im old and slow, but i feel theres to much burst and to much cc and the res potential from a few classes(that are played excessively) are way over the top. The classes that do burst all have big advantages while while having little counters and only specific builds can counter those advantages leaving most builds and play styles uselss vs these ranged and high bursty classes.

[Faffin.6741]

I wonder how things would go if just core classes could PvP, or create PVP versions of core classes? Maybe that would be easier to balance. As somebody else said though, MOBAs manage to balance with way more classes than GW2...

 

I really can't figure out how they think Mesmers, Deadeyes, and Spellbreakers are fun to play against for the average player - I think they need to get some feedback from staff who don't pvp as a reality check. The only reason I hang in there with ranked is for the rewards.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Kako.1930" said:

> heart of thorns wasn't too bad, but path of fire was over the top. It's made me super salty. :(

 

Except the first two seasons where balance was so broken that you either played as Chrono or Tempest and did nothing but just sit in the point not dying, or you played other classes and tried to play for the few points without a Chrono or a Tempest on them if any. There were instances of people just giving up and waiting for the timer to end while chatting and dancing on points.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Alehin.3746" said:

> It's a "bad experience" because the elite specs aren't and will never be designet for PvP, not sure why it's so hard to understand/accept that

Yes, they are, and several of them were pretty much designed _entirely_ for PVP/WvW (scrapper, spellbreaker, scourge).

[Alehin.3746]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Alehin.3746" said:

> > It's a "bad experience" because the elite specs aren't and will never be designet for PvP, not sure why it's so hard to understand/accept that

> Yes, they are, and several of them were pretty much designed _entirely_ for PVP/WvW (scrapper, spellbreaker, scourge).

 

I meant well designed

[witcher.3197]

> @"Kako.1930" said:

> heart of thorns wasn't too bad, but path of fire was over the top. It's made me super salty. :(

 

HoT release was like having half of your house demolished and then rebuilt in an odd way that you eventually got used to after a year.

 

PoF's like going home wasted af and burning it all to the ground before taking a dump on it.

[Archer.4362]

The only thing he thinks about, is in drawing designs in the gem store and in how many chairs we can sit in the game.

 

Anet has completely abandoned the pvp system, however much they say otherwise.

 

The system was going from bad to worse, and on top of that the only thing that entered the people was the last era to be among the 100, or 250 first for the title, they take it away.

 

good work anet. And as you notice that you do not answer a single message as before, there are five that do not respond or a message from people as you did before, answers 1 in 100, and that does not take anything in the response, which is implemented in the future, that is giving more problems than you thought.

 

[Malediktus.9250]

PvP in this game is trash since the HoT expansion, nothing new

[Flumek.9043]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> PvP in this game is trash since the HoT expansion, nothing new

 

Yup.

 

Technically it died half a year earlier, when 2015specializations aka 3x grandmaster traits patch happened. Just spam, powercreep and glider skins since then.

[GenghisKhan.7842]

I add myself to the choir of people who hate current insta-kill meta

It's total garbage and completely an unfun way to PVP in an MMORPG

Even the resurrect mechanic has basically disappeared from PVP

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

 

> My point in short:

> EVEN IF IT IS BALANCED, IF IT IS NOT ENJOYABLE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT IS NOT GOOD CLASS DESIGN.

 

You're probably the only other person in GW2 to understand this concept. It's the same reason why nobody plays/people got sick of Street Fighter 1 (which is literally just Ryu/Ken vs Ryu/Ken match-ups; perfect balance) but Street Fighter 2 was/is still (to a certain extent) wildly popular (due to variety of playstyle options even with the same character). Balance can be "good" or "optimal," but the game can still be hot garbage.

 

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> How many times have you fought a deadeye and think afterwards that you've had a fun and engaging game play experience?

> How many times vs mirage? FB Scourge?

 

1v1s? All of them almost always... Maybe not dagger on DE.

Conquest? Again almost always with the exception of FB with a team that doesn't deal with it.

 

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> What I'm getting at is a problem with PvP now compared to PvP in the past. The builds that are created because of poor design decisions by the developers are incredibly unfun to play against. Sure they may be fun to play, but consider that there is another player, who is just as much a paying customer on the receiving end of your class design. Skills like [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm) / [Axes of Symmetry](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry), and traits like [Elusive Mind](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind) / [Rousing Resilience](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rousing_Resilience) are not fun to face. When it takes more work to counter a strategy than it takes to execute it, you have poor design.

 

PvP has barely changed, it has historically been a revolving door of apex predators being stacked in comps. Compared to imba builds of the past like never die cele or valk ele, hambow, petting zoo, etc. We have much better balance now. Yes more is demanded of you as a player to outplay your opponent and their kit, but it's much better than face roll comps that win solely because of their builds in the game type.

 

You may not find it fun to wait for a mirage to waste their doge, or to evade their fairly obvious burst. Nor may you enjoy playing around things like War's Rousing Resilience. Sucks, but if you want a game where you just win because of your build and matchup you take any meaning out of individual skill.

 

Sure somethings might not be incredibly fair, and be literally to safe for it's strength, but you haven't even mentioned any of them thus far. Everything you have highlighted is strong but has more than enough counter play.

 

You mentioned people getting bored with the game type, well maybe conquest itself is the problem? I don't find conquest fun, but I realize it's subjective.

 

Also how is "only core" matchups going to be fun for any build that isn't 'as mechanically complete' without elite specs? Maybe you find it fun because you run those, and anything you are finding problematic now is a problem because it's actually on par?

 

Really the game has always been "read then punish" or "roll something that doesn't need to read and can live" or the long term problem with apex predators where they "don't need to read very well, can live but can punish equally as hard without getting off the point" We have come quite a bit far from vastly over performing apex predators that only really over perfrom because of conquest, and they at least when most pop up they have clear enough flaws that having good supporting comp matters now.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> How many times have you fought a deadeye and think afterwards that you've had a fun and engaging game play experience?

> How many times vs mirage? FB Scourge?

>

> What I'm getting at is a problem with PvP now compared to PvP in the past. The builds that are created because of poor design decisions by the developers are incredibly unfun to play against. Sure they may be fun to play, but consider that there is another player, who is just as much a paying customer on the receiving end of your class design. Skills like [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm) / [Axes of Symmetry](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry), and traits like [Elusive Mind](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind) / [Rousing Resilience](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rousing_Resilience) are not fun to face. When it takes more work to counter a strategy than it takes to execute it, you have poor design.

>

> My point in short:

> EVEN IF IT IS BALANCED, IF IT IS NOT ENJOYABLE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT IS NOT GOOD CLASS DESIGN.

>

> I am positive this is driving players away from pvp. I've seen the frustration in my friends, who drift away and stop playing because the game mode they care about is no longer fun to play. We used to duel for hours to get better, organize scrims and inhouses for fun and now, nothing. Maybe once a few months we'll organize matches with only core classes to try to relive the game we fell in love with years ago. but with the power creep and unengaging mechanics that have been introduced since the base game, we're left unfulfilled. We feel abandoned by the developers as patch after patch we are let down and left feeling cynical about the future of the game. It doesn't help when even [some promised features (~9 Months Ago)](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19541/pvp-discussion-automated-tournaments/p1) never appear. The stuff that does arrive is usually bungled and dead-on-arrival. We would love to help but everything we suggest seems to fall on deaf ears.

>

> I'm no content creator or important figurehead, but I think I've got enough exposure to the pvp community to read its pulse. Its not very good.

 

Good points, this is exactly how I feel.

 

Balance is the best it has been in years. But balance doesn't mean much when everything is equally annoying to play against

[Daishi.6027]

I don't like it in conquest, but I really do find it fun playing the waiting game dodging deadeye snipes 1v1.

[Axl.8924]

I think it would help if buffs weren't so plentiful in spvp and wvw and cds so low.

 

Nukes are too strong and one shot, and ccs are overkill.

[sephiroth.4217]

I had an issue with yolo queue builds until I started playing one.. There's nothing really engaging about ending a fight within 0.003s but it sure does make you laugh :lol:

 

I miss team queue, that's pretty much what I miss most... Making up team builds that went well together, like, would love to see reaper feed off the chills from glacial heart sort of thing... But alas, yolo queue 1 shot builds work the best in yolo queue so that's what I've adapted too :love:

[FyzE.3472]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> I had an issue with yolo queue builds until I started playing one.. There's nothing really engaging about ending a fight within 0.003s but it sure does make you laugh :lol:

>

> I miss team queue, that's pretty much what I miss most... Making up team builds that went well together, like, would love to see reaper feed off the chills from glacial heart sort of thing... But alas, yolo queue 1 shot builds work the best in yolo queue so that's what I've adapted too :love:

 

And this does put a smile on my face. But what did it cost?

[Schwahrheit.4203]

It's insane, you legit get garbage ass Mesmer mains who think they're special saying "balance is better now"

 

Disgusting. Just stop, LMAO. If It's so much better nowadays why hasn't ESL taken the game back? Why League of Legends was able to keep some old player loyal up until today,? Who of the Abjured for example is still playing other than Phanta? Who other than the guys from EU like ROM is still playing today?

 

Fail harder, if you actually think balancing is better right now. With how the game currently is? What is the point of playing builds without unblockables or evade spam while attacking? EVERY build on the top has those qualities, it's not fun to watch for viewership (PoF and HoT made it harder to spectate, commentate, and understand what is happening because of bad principle mesmer-like mechanics, with PoF and HoT you can't really tell who is good and who isn't because with an Engi for example? You don't need to land 1200 range grenades to be "good" anymore, which is a giant fail socialism piece of garbage) and it isn't fun to experience in principle compared to actually learning how to count dodges and time reasonable casting times back in pre-HoT. Literally so bad that you don't understand why this meta is garbage compared to pre-HoT because you don't understand the core mechanic that made GW2 great in the first place.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > I had an issue with yolo queue builds until I started playing one.. There's nothing really engaging about ending a fight within 0.003s but it sure does make you laugh :lol:

> >

> > I miss team queue, that's pretty much what I miss most... Making up team builds that went well together, like, would love to see reaper feed off the chills from glacial heart sort of thing... But alas, yolo queue 1 shot builds work the best in yolo queue so that's what I've adapted too :love:

>

> And this does put a smile on my face. But what did it cost?

 

fun with friends ?

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Absinthey.5340" said:

> Couldn't agree more with the OP.

>

> Friends that I have convinced to play (new players) were not only disgusted with the lack of balance, but also the inherent lack of skillful class design that the game now entertains. Needless to say, all have left the game since and have never looked back.

>

> Guild Wars 2 is a game full of potential, but in reality that's all it is; it will never see the day that this potential is tapped.

>

 

 

'Why Customer Loyalty is Important'

[aswedishtiger.7320]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> How many times have you fought a deadeye and think afterwards that you've had a fun and engaging game play experience?

> How many times vs mirage? FB Scourge?

>

> What I'm getting at is a problem with PvP now compared to PvP in the past. The builds that are created because of poor design decisions by the developers are incredibly unfun to play against. Sure they may be fun to play, but consider that there is another player, who is just as much a paying customer on the receiving end of your class design. Skills like [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm) / [Axes of Symmetry](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry), and traits like [Elusive Mind](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind) / [Rousing Resilience](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rousing_Resilience) are not fun to face. When it takes more work to counter a strategy than it takes to execute it, you have poor design.

>

> My point in short:

> EVEN IF IT IS BALANCED, IF IT IS NOT ENJOYABLE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT IS NOT GOOD CLASS DESIGN.

>

> I am positive this is driving players away from pvp. I've seen the frustration in my friends, who drift away and stop playing because the game mode they care about is no longer fun to play. We used to duel for hours to get better, organize scrims and inhouses for fun and now, nothing. Maybe once a few months we'll organize matches with only core classes to try to relive the game we fell in love with years ago. but with the power creep and unengaging mechanics that have been introduced since the base game, we're left unfulfilled. We feel abandoned by the developers as patch after patch we are let down and left feeling cynical about the future of the game. It doesn't help when even [some promised features (~9 Months Ago)](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19541/pvp-discussion-automated-tournaments/p1) never appear. The stuff that does arrive is usually bungled and dead-on-arrival. We would love to help but everything we suggest seems to fall on deaf ears.

>

> I'm no content creator or important figurehead, but I think I've got enough exposure to the pvp community to read its pulse. Its not very good.

 

 

Got my thumbs up. Agreed with everything you said. If I lose 1 more game to some stupid 1 shot gimmick or some cancer condi spam I can't cleanse out of with 3 full condi cleanses I'm gonna rage quit and make a thread about it and be "that guy"

[BlackBeard.2873]

Been that way for a long time. Anet has power-crept their game for WAY too long now.

 

Too many builds have mechanics that are just downright frustrating to fight: the constant detargets and clone spam of a mirage ruining visibility and fight clarity, stealth on dodge for DE, dodge while stunned/immob/etc. for mirage, the long chains of invulns/dodges/blocks for a spellbreaker/rev/ranger/weaver, all the free ports a mirage, thief, and rev get that make positioning worthless, the abilities that stack a million kinds of condis for necro/mirage making cleanse nearly useless unless you have TONS, the free damage procs that do a significant amount of damage for necro/holo/rev, and more!

 

Anet has LONG since left behind GW2 as a skill-based game where big actions had a big tell (and long CD), where condis and cleanses were deliberate, where fights had an ebb and flow, where hard-damage mitigation (invulns, blocks, evades) were few and far between (and thus saved for the few big hits), where soft-damage mitigation (prot, soft-cc, toughness) had a place in the game, and where every spec had roles AND holes. Sure, they were never perfect, but at least you could come up with viable strategies against anything. Nowadays, the number of straight up hard-counters is just sad.

 

I often see the best advice given out for fighting a mirage is to Alt-F4...and while it is meant as kind of a joke, it is also true. There is nothing fun about fighting a spec that has the upper hand in everywhere, is full of visual puke, and doesn't even have effective means to punish it. Even if you kill one...the fight was never fun. In fact, when you do kill one you are just left bitter that someone with the deck stacked ridiculously in their favor still failed so miserably.

 

Oh well, all aboard the buff train!! FPS-ville, here we come!!!

[pah.4931]

> @"Absinthey.5340" said:

> Couldn't agree more with the OP.

>

> Friends that I have convinced to play (new players) were not only disgusted with the lack of balance, but also the inherent lack of skillful class design that the game now entertains. Needless to say, all have left the game since and have never looked back.

>

> Guild Wars 2 is a game full of potential, but in reality that's all it is; it will never see the day that this potential is tapped.

>

 

There's a reason for this... which is both awesome and a bummer. The GW2 business model.

 

I would almost guarantee PvP players spend WAY less than PvE players, on average. This causes an issue where design priorities lie. And when business decisions drive design decisions to this extent, the results are not great.

 

GW2's motto from the beginning was to make a very casual-friendly MMO ("where you are excited to see another player out in the world") ... but at the same time tried to launch with a very rigid, competitive-based (not fun-based) PvP system... basically trying to attract a completely different audience -- and look! you don't even have to play PvE at all to compete in sPvP. Some would call it a cash grab (it might well have been), but either way it was an incongruous and poorly thought-out decision... and since PvPers aren't supporting their own mode (again, I am making assumptions), it's easy for Anet to let it go, like Rose let go of Jack even though there was clearly enough room for two on that door.

 

What were we talking about again?

[Rufo.3716]

I've already been banned multiple times for bashing the balance team, but they need to seriously get the message. They either don't know what they are doing, or they don't care about the PvP aspect of the game, and the last balance patch proves it. Thief and Mesmer are easily the worst 2 professions in PvP to play against and they do nothing about them. I even joked about having perma stealth weekend for WvW during one of the streams. The devs there seemed to think it would be hilarious with people running around in stealth constantly, well, that's exactly what you have with thief, even more so with DE.

 

For the first time I've seriously considered quitting, and it's all because of the balance. It's horrible and keeps getting worse with each patch rather than better. At this point they need to do complete overhauls of multiple specs on multiple professions. It would be way to much work for them to consider making balance better in PvP so they only care about the PvE aspect.