zealex.9410 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them? > > Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy. > > Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS. > > There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting. > > Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts. > > > > So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us. > > > > And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story. > > Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all. > > What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before? > > > > I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously? > > Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss. > > > > The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading. > > When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is". > > Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained". > > Then what was the whole point of the plague? > > There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague. > > The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop. > > > > Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them > > While I think your issue is mostly with LWS4 (I do as well, the content is terrible), do we really want to up the difficulty? Remember, the story difficulty is made in a way that a player with limited experience and knowledge, can progress through it with ease. > > Even for veteran players like me, it will only be a matter changing builds and gear. My main is guardian DH/core power build, in mostly berserker gear. If difficulty goes up, I will go the sPvP gear route and play radiant core with mostly Valkyrie and meditation line. Is this really an increase in difficulty or inconvenience? Lw isn't lvl 10 or 20 content, its lvl 80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenzify.6832 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Because players have different skill levels, and Anet seems to want to cater to the lowest skill level, rather than make content people actually need to try and learn the game and their class for. I'm very much reminded of the Eater of Souls in PoF, and how people wouldn't think to just switch up their builds, or had no concept of the break bar. It doesn't really annoy me most of the time, as I just let it go, but it would be nice if things weren't so insanely hand holdy. I do understand it, but as I said, I'd rather they made content that the less skilled would have to get more skilled for, because otherwise they'll never get better, and the content for everyone else will just be a borefest and a walk in the park. I didn't know the Joko fight had no fail state, but the one that really got me was the golem fight in the Olmakhan village. Everyone finds different things fun, for sure, but I really didn't find it fun getting downed so much only to instantly revive with no real consequence. I didn't feel accomplished beating it, and I didn't feel like I earned it. It felt like the game just pushed me to the goal without any real effort on my part, at which point I wasn't left with any satisfaction, but just annoyance. When a game or boss doesn't have a fail state it really dampens it for me. Maybe the answer is to bring back the challenge mote, to increase difficulties for the people who want it. But as it stands, I absolutely don't play the story or its bosses for fun, but more just because I'm a completionist on my characters. The only story boss I consider fun enough to play over again is potato monster Mordremoth and that's only due to the spectacle of it, since the normal mode is pretty simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you." > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about. > > > > > > > > Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability > > > > > > What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight. > > > > Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it. > > There are people with disabilities out there that want to enjoy the game and not feel excluded (like in the real world), so why would you deny them that? > Or is it because you need to feel superior to them by getting shiny pixels in the game? (So can you do Ember bay jumping puzzle with one arm?) > > Just because you can do it doesn't mean that everyone can even if they tried hard. > Personal story is supposed to be accessible for everyone. So far there are some annoying bosses but the ability to res-rush actually helps people deal with them. (even with res-rush some people are having problems) > > Raids and high level fractals are where this game challenging content is. > > P.S. Wildstar is running way better than GW2 on my pc and the graphics are nicer (i prefer cartoon style). But I remember people complaining about how punishing the game was (failing one encounter in raids almost removed your reward, making people instantly restarting). Why should a game be boring just because 1% (or even less) of the players are disabled? Yes, inclusion can go too far. I played Wildstar at release and it ran like trash with plenty of memory leaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addiction.9685 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I completely agree OP. I was really upset when we killed Balthazar and then later Joko. God slayer? Really? Meanwhile back in GW1 I actually felt Vizier Khilbron was an actual threat. Same with Shiro Tagachi. The narrative team has put the player character in the comical position of being able to slay anything and everything. So much for having struggles to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoukiNeko.6047 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you." > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about. > > > > > > > > > > Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability > > > > > > > > What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight. > > > > > > Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it. > > > > There are people with disabilities out there that want to enjoy the game and not feel excluded (like in the real world), so why would you deny them that? > > Or is it because you need to feel superior to them by getting shiny pixels in the game? (So can you do Ember bay jumping puzzle with one arm?) > > > > Just because you can do it doesn't mean that everyone can even if they tried hard. > > Personal story is supposed to be accessible for everyone. So far there are some annoying bosses but the ability to res-rush actually helps people deal with them. (even with res-rush some people are having problems) > > > > Raids and high level fractals are where this game challenging content is. > > > > P.S. Wildstar is running way better than GW2 on my pc and the graphics are nicer (i prefer cartoon style). But I remember people complaining about how punishing the game was (failing one encounter in raids almost removed your reward, making people instantly restarting). > > Why should a game be boring just because 1% (or even less) of the players are disabled? Yes, inclusion can go too far. > > I played Wildstar at release and it ran like trash with plenty of memory leaks How does it make the game boring if only the personal story is available to everyone? Did I say: "- Nerf raids and fractals"? Nope I did not. What I'm saying is let the personal story alone. Buff the raids, make the fractals impossible, but leave the lore content accessible for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaogin.2679 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > Well they can use machine learning to create bots which behave like human players, immagine going in a room full of mesmers and they all fight like their top ranked human counterparts. Or going to queensdale and all the bandits start behaving like your average thief in WvW, that's the experience PvE is currently missing. > > Then the bots would complain about a lack of challenge Omg this was great. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menadena.7482 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlinvf.1358 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Edelweiss.4261" said: > I've never understood this need for challenge. Challenge is ever present in life, so I imagine you want a challenge specific to this game. I guess you could time yourself and see how quickly you can do it. Maybe see how high you can get your dps? There are tons of ways to find challenge without forcing it on others if you really seek it. Rewinding back in time 2 days to answer this. As a medium, video games have always had some type of challenge, as its one of the biggest factors in engagement. The issue is how "challenge" is constantly getting conflated with "difficulty", and the common use having an incredibly narrow minded view of what makes it up. "Skill" has this same problem, as its kind of ill defined to begin with, and started being twisted to simply be a fallacy to support any argument. Challenge comes from anything that pushes against the player. Be it having to do things, or forcing them to rethink something at a fundamental level. Story often likes to challenge players on an emotional level, puzzle challenge them cognitively, rotations challenge memory, or how the combat system challenges a player's reflexes. All of these have widely varying levels of difficulty from moment to moment, but they all fall under this simple umbrella of being interesting based on how it engages the player by cooperating or resisting against whats in front of them. What I'm finding to be the big problem is players simply wanting too much out of every game they play. Almost literally demanding every game be the "perfect game" to them. And the more open a game is feed back, the more they try to force their will, typically to the exclusion of others. This is why a game having a particular identity is important, as it creates a compass for what ideas the majority of fans/players are likely to go along with. However, with more players focusing on fewer games, and playing them for much longer cycles, this every increasing demand for any single game to satisfy "all of their interests" is what leads to so many of these calls for constant changes and reworks that aren't particularly necessary if the game never had that goal. Adding Raids, for instance, is one such incident; and the arguments about "what makes a good raid" often gets tangled up in another argument over accessibility, difficulty, and superior rewards. The irony though is that most of the game's "difficult" or "challenging" content isn't all that difficult mechanically. While the combat in GW2 is very engaging, its not really possible to fail using a skill or taking an action, and is ultimately measured by capitalizing on opportunity more then anything else. But where players ultimately get the most push back is from other players. You wipe in a raid or fractal, as far as the mechanics are concerned, you're not heavily pushed for the failure, and are free to try again without much in the way of set backs. Even if the boss resets, you're not forced to start the level over or lose anything valuable to the fight, and rarely worse off then when going in the last time. At worst the only thing you lost is time, and maybe armor damage (which you can suffer 12 strikes against before it does anything meaningful). But what typically happens when a group wipes, fails, or even has a few people downed mid-battle? Usually theres some kind of argument sparked from frustration, and more times then it should, people end up leaving or the party socially imploding in its entirety. Granted there are often a lot of things going on, and people simply reacting.... but it does raise the question about why this attitude is so prevalent in game modes that typically demand team work and/or at least some amount of social interaction. At least part of it is how players handle the idea of failure, and this stigma of success only being valuable with a greater weight of failure being hung over their heads. This affects all sides of the argument. Some are so risk adverse, they demand the environment be changed to remove any chance of failure from the equation; while others demand harsher punishment for not conforming to some radically complex system designed to come crashing down on the player at even the slightest deviation from some singular, highly specific solution. And then there are those that somehow fall into both, and try to influence the bar to let them succeed and force others to fail. Failure isn't the only way to do this; its just one of the most easily recognizable ways, given the target audience for commercially successful games largely comes from objectivist/goal-oriented societies. Achievement is praised, and failure chastised..... so unsurprisingly, it would be things they intuitively respond to. And thus, obstacles to that goal are what gets fixated on more then anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuickFox.3826 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 We already have raids, dungeons, fractals, we already have challenge modes in some story steps, we already have some very challenging storyline achievements. **I think the main storyline should be accessible for a very large majority of the players, also for casuals.** The many retry and resurrect mechanics help to achieve this. I agree that some story steps are very easy, but a few others are still very hard. I tried to complete the final storyline mission of Heart of Thorns a few days ago and could not make it in several attempts. And I'm a player who knows the game (4000 hours on my main char) and the mechanics. I'm not saying I'm a highly skilled player because I am not, but there is a large group of players who cannot get past this on their own. Fortunately, I completed this one with a party earlier. But the story, this is the main thing of the game. All players who genuinely put in their best effort should be able to experience this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them? > Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy. > Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS. > There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting. > Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts. > > So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us. > > And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story. > Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all. > What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before? > > I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously? > Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss. > > The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading. > When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is". > Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained". > Then what was the whole point of the plague? > There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague. > The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop. > > Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them Nope they need to make it easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Menadena.7482" said: > Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. you're not the first to make this suggestion on this topic, the ninth, in fact, and everytime the same rebutal comes back: handicapping yourself does not make a fight more challenging, only more attrituous. By cutting your own dps, or making yourself more susceptible you're only increasing the length of the fight, not the difficulty. If I can dodge the bosses' power attack the few times he does it in his short life span, what makes you think I can't dodge it a few more times? Remember, challenging doesn't mean "boss does more dps" or "boss has more health" Challenging means more complex mechanics to deal with. Without the mechanics, every boss is just a reskin of the same. Lets give it an example, shall we? Say, Joko, he mostly just stands around, and every so once in a while he uses the 'floor is lava' tactic. Nothing much else is going on, as far as rangers and casters are concerned, this fight is already is basic as it gets. but as a source of challenge, would probably be, 'floor is lava' but you have to make your own flooring to stand on. If you dont, all is lava. Then you suddenly have an extra element in the fights to take care of. And what if Joko could drain his allies like he did in the end cinematic. Then you'd have to constantly maintain distance between Joko and his minions, by forms of CC. another example: Balthazar, has a lot going, MANY, MANY small attacks. Waves, bursts, that weird loopydoopy fire. But all in all, all of those attacks are weak. If you stay out of the way of the majority, you can outheal about 25% of the remaining damage with ease. Now, lets add a challenge. The area shrinks over time, the fire walls close in. Now you're forced to deal with the same amount of MANY, MANY small attacks in an ever decreasing safe area. And attacks like Sabetha's fire wall would work great here as well. Now in a raid that is an absolute death skill, for the story mode it could be 75% damage skill, downing players already severely hurt. But in that last case, remember that even in absolute death cases, you can instantly resurect and continue the fight anyway. last example: Tequatl. YES, tequatl, the boss overhauled in an effort to make him hard again. they can give him more health, makes his attacks more damaging, every playing could come naked. However, NONE OF THAT would add ANY difficulty or challenge. BECAUSE THERE IS A WAYPOINT NEXT TO THE BATTLEFIELD. You can infinitely die and run back. you can rebuild the lost turrets. A good way to renew the difficulty on tequatl would be: a) Make the turret defending more challenging, and increase cooldown on their [2] as they get damaged b) Make damage on the batteries persistant, so defending them becomes more of a task c) add more enemies designed for the sole purpose of interfering with the regular fighting tactics, and special enemies designed to damage the batteries. All in all, most bosses can be improved upon. In this current state, people are not being punished for ignoring mechanics. you can faceplant any boss, and with patience, that's a valid tactic. however, challenge is arisen from mechanics and field effects. Not from raw dps or lacking armor. The latter will only increase the length of the fight, not the difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Menadena.7482" said: > *sigh* > > Another 'I need a challenge' thread. You can come up with plenty of challenges. Like roll an alt and walk to Orr as soon as you rez. Or take on what is meant to be a group boss (that nobody does because it has a high failure rate) singlehandedly. > > This is part of why so many things in the world now are so kitteningly ridiculous to beat. Those are fine ideas, but it gives a choice between absurdly easy and incredibly difficult. It would be nice if there were more challenges, both in world events and solo play, that are more appropriate to the average level of play. For instance, nobody has the least trouble with world bosses anymore. They should be more challenging, not to the point where most players are frustrated, but you should at least feel a sense of accomplishment when you defeat them. Maybe more achieves related to specific aspects of the fights would help, as those are my only goals during such fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. > > you're not the first to make this suggestion on this topic, the ninth, in fact, and everytime the same rebutal comes back: > handicapping yourself does not make a fight more challenging, only more attrituous. > By cutting your own dps, or making yourself more susceptible you're only increasing the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > If I can dodge the bosses' power attack the few times he does it in his short life span, what makes you think I can't dodge it a few more times? > Remember, challenging doesn't mean "boss does more dps" or "boss has more health" > Challenging means more complex mechanics to deal with. Without the mechanics, every boss is just a reskin of the same. > > Lets give it an example, shall we? > > Say, Joko, he mostly just stands around, and every so once in a while he uses the 'floor is lava' tactic. > Nothing much else is going on, as far as rangers and casters are concerned, this fight is already is basic as it gets. > but as a source of challenge, would probably be, 'floor is lava' but you have to make your own flooring to stand on. If you dont, all is lava. > Then you suddenly have an extra element in the fights to take care of. > And what if Joko could drain his allies like he did in the end cinematic. Then you'd have to constantly maintain distance between Joko and his minions, by forms of CC. > > another example: > Balthazar, has a lot going, MANY, MANY small attacks. Waves, bursts, that weird loopydoopy fire. > But all in all, all of those attacks are weak. If you stay out of the way of the majority, you can outheal about 25% of the remaining damage with ease. > Now, lets add a challenge. The area shrinks over time, the fire walls close in. Now you're forced to deal with the same amount of MANY, MANY small attacks in an ever decreasing safe area. And attacks like Sabetha's fire wall would work great here as well. Now in a raid that is an absolute death skill, for the story mode it could be 75% damage skill, downing players already severely hurt. > But in that last case, remember that even in absolute death cases, you can instantly resurect and continue the fight anyway. > > last example: > Tequatl. YES, tequatl, the boss overhauled in an effort to make him hard again. they can give him more health, makes his attacks more damaging, every playing could come naked. However, NONE OF THAT would add ANY difficulty or challenge. BECAUSE THERE IS A WAYPOINT NEXT TO THE BATTLEFIELD. > You can infinitely die and run back. you can rebuild the lost turrets. > A good way to renew the difficulty on tequatl would be: > a) Make the turret defending more challenging, and increase cooldown on their [2] as they get damaged > b) Make damage on the batteries persistant, so defending them becomes more of a task > c) add more enemies designed for the sole purpose of interfering with the regular fighting tactics, and special enemies designed to damage the batteries. > > All in all, most bosses can be improved upon. In this current state, people are not being punished for ignoring mechanics. you can faceplant any boss, and with patience, that's a valid tactic. however, challenge is arisen from mechanics and field effects. Not from raw dps or lacking armor. The latter will only increase the length of the fight, not the difficulty. I think people trying to do tripple trouble and serpent ire would like to have a word with you about being able to faceplant any boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil.1580 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 No more challenge, please. I want an easier game. PoF feels super hard and this gold farm in Istan feels like LW4 is even harder, I can't farm anything because it's too hard. Even standing in the corner in the GH event feels super hard for me. Please, we need easier content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > > Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. > > > > you're not the first to make this suggestion on this topic, the ninth, in fact, and everytime the same rebutal comes back: > > handicapping yourself does not make a fight more challenging, only more attrituous. > > By cutting your own dps, or making yourself more susceptible you're only increasing the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > If I can dodge the bosses' power attack the few times he does it in his short life span, what makes you think I can't dodge it a few more times? > > Remember, challenging doesn't mean "boss does more dps" or "boss has more health" > > Challenging means more complex mechanics to deal with. Without the mechanics, every boss is just a reskin of the same. > > > > Lets give it an example, shall we? > > > > Say, Joko, he mostly just stands around, and every so once in a while he uses the 'floor is lava' tactic. > > Nothing much else is going on, as far as rangers and casters are concerned, this fight is already is basic as it gets. > > but as a source of challenge, would probably be, 'floor is lava' but you have to make your own flooring to stand on. If you dont, all is lava. > > Then you suddenly have an extra element in the fights to take care of. > > And what if Joko could drain his allies like he did in the end cinematic. Then you'd have to constantly maintain distance between Joko and his minions, by forms of CC. > > > > another example: > > Balthazar, has a lot going, MANY, MANY small attacks. Waves, bursts, that weird loopydoopy fire. > > But all in all, all of those attacks are weak. If you stay out of the way of the majority, you can outheal about 25% of the remaining damage with ease. > > Now, lets add a challenge. The area shrinks over time, the fire walls close in. Now you're forced to deal with the same amount of MANY, MANY small attacks in an ever decreasing safe area. And attacks like Sabetha's fire wall would work great here as well. Now in a raid that is an absolute death skill, for the story mode it could be 75% damage skill, downing players already severely hurt. > > But in that last case, remember that even in absolute death cases, you can instantly resurect and continue the fight anyway. > > > > last example: > > Tequatl. YES, tequatl, the boss overhauled in an effort to make him hard again. they can give him more health, makes his attacks more damaging, every playing could come naked. However, NONE OF THAT would add ANY difficulty or challenge. BECAUSE THERE IS A WAYPOINT NEXT TO THE BATTLEFIELD. > > You can infinitely die and run back. you can rebuild the lost turrets. > > A good way to renew the difficulty on tequatl would be: > > a) Make the turret defending more challenging, and increase cooldown on their [2] as they get damaged > > b) Make damage on the batteries persistant, so defending them becomes more of a task > > c) add more enemies designed for the sole purpose of interfering with the regular fighting tactics, and special enemies designed to damage the batteries. > > > > All in all, most bosses can be improved upon. In this current state, people are not being punished for ignoring mechanics. you can faceplant any boss, and with patience, that's a valid tactic. however, challenge is arisen from mechanics and field effects. Not from raw dps or lacking armor. The latter will only increase the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > I think people trying to do tripple trouble and serpent ire would like to have a word with you about being able to faceplant any boss. Serpent Ire is only difficult because of the health pools. You're not fighitng the boss, you're fighting the clock. And I'll agree that Triple Trouble is a good (albeit maybe one of the last ones left) challenge in the PvE section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Biff.5312" said: > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > *sigh* > > > > Another 'I need a challenge' thread. You can come up with plenty of challenges. Like roll an alt and walk to Orr as soon as you rez. Or take on what is meant to be a group boss (that nobody does because it has a high failure rate) singlehandedly. > > > > This is part of why so many things in the world now are so kitteningly ridiculous to beat. > > Those are fine ideas, but it gives a choice between absurdly easy and incredibly difficult. It would be nice if there were more challenges, both in world events and solo play, that are more appropriate to the average level of play. For instance, nobody has the least trouble with world bosses anymore. They should be more challenging, not to the point where most players are frustrated, but you should at least feel a sense of accomplishment when you defeat them. Maybe more achieves related to specific aspects of the fights would help, as those are my only goals during such fights. agreed, I remember when the game just came out, we did Fire elemental with 10-15 people (if we were lucky) and it was always finger crosses if we were gonna make it. Now the boss dies before it's spawning animation is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenzify.6832 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > > Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. > > > > you're not the first to make this suggestion on this topic, the ninth, in fact, and everytime the same rebutal comes back: > > handicapping yourself does not make a fight more challenging, only more attrituous. > > By cutting your own dps, or making yourself more susceptible you're only increasing the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > If I can dodge the bosses' power attack the few times he does it in his short life span, what makes you think I can't dodge it a few more times? > > Remember, challenging doesn't mean "boss does more dps" or "boss has more health" > > Challenging means more complex mechanics to deal with. Without the mechanics, every boss is just a reskin of the same. > > > > Lets give it an example, shall we? > > > > Say, Joko, he mostly just stands around, and every so once in a while he uses the 'floor is lava' tactic. > > Nothing much else is going on, as far as rangers and casters are concerned, this fight is already is basic as it gets. > > but as a source of challenge, would probably be, 'floor is lava' but you have to make your own flooring to stand on. If you dont, all is lava. > > Then you suddenly have an extra element in the fights to take care of. > > And what if Joko could drain his allies like he did in the end cinematic. Then you'd have to constantly maintain distance between Joko and his minions, by forms of CC. > > > > another example: > > Balthazar, has a lot going, MANY, MANY small attacks. Waves, bursts, that weird loopydoopy fire. > > But all in all, all of those attacks are weak. If you stay out of the way of the majority, you can outheal about 25% of the remaining damage with ease. > > Now, lets add a challenge. The area shrinks over time, the fire walls close in. Now you're forced to deal with the same amount of MANY, MANY small attacks in an ever decreasing safe area. And attacks like Sabetha's fire wall would work great here as well. Now in a raid that is an absolute death skill, for the story mode it could be 75% damage skill, downing players already severely hurt. > > But in that last case, remember that even in absolute death cases, you can instantly resurect and continue the fight anyway. > > > > last example: > > Tequatl. YES, tequatl, the boss overhauled in an effort to make him hard again. they can give him more health, makes his attacks more damaging, every playing could come naked. However, NONE OF THAT would add ANY difficulty or challenge. BECAUSE THERE IS A WAYPOINT NEXT TO THE BATTLEFIELD. > > You can infinitely die and run back. you can rebuild the lost turrets. > > A good way to renew the difficulty on tequatl would be: > > a) Make the turret defending more challenging, and increase cooldown on their [2] as they get damaged > > b) Make damage on the batteries persistant, so defending them becomes more of a task > > c) add more enemies designed for the sole purpose of interfering with the regular fighting tactics, and special enemies designed to damage the batteries. > > > > All in all, most bosses can be improved upon. In this current state, people are not being punished for ignoring mechanics. you can faceplant any boss, and with patience, that's a valid tactic. however, challenge is arisen from mechanics and field effects. Not from raw dps or lacking armor. The latter will only increase the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > I think people trying to do tripple trouble and serpent ire would like to have a word with you about being able to faceplant any boss. In EU I constantly see advertising of when the community something-or-other is going to do the next triple trouble run. I would imagine that most people who want to do it would try to get into that organised group. I think they even do it daily. Serpents' Ire, though, I think is an issue of not enough players? I don't know, I've never really tried it, but Vabbi always seems pretty barren of players, so I'm just speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Frenzify.6832" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > > > Have you tried things like only using blue and green equipment? Or failing an instance if you can not do it in a minute? Or doing all the achieves? There are always ways to make things harder but it is more difficult to make things easier and since there are people on both sides you might have to settle with adding your own challenges. > > > > > > you're not the first to make this suggestion on this topic, the ninth, in fact, and everytime the same rebutal comes back: > > > handicapping yourself does not make a fight more challenging, only more attrituous. > > > By cutting your own dps, or making yourself more susceptible you're only increasing the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > > If I can dodge the bosses' power attack the few times he does it in his short life span, what makes you think I can't dodge it a few more times? > > > Remember, challenging doesn't mean "boss does more dps" or "boss has more health" > > > Challenging means more complex mechanics to deal with. Without the mechanics, every boss is just a reskin of the same. > > > > > > Lets give it an example, shall we? > > > > > > Say, Joko, he mostly just stands around, and every so once in a while he uses the 'floor is lava' tactic. > > > Nothing much else is going on, as far as rangers and casters are concerned, this fight is already is basic as it gets. > > > but as a source of challenge, would probably be, 'floor is lava' but you have to make your own flooring to stand on. If you dont, all is lava. > > > Then you suddenly have an extra element in the fights to take care of. > > > And what if Joko could drain his allies like he did in the end cinematic. Then you'd have to constantly maintain distance between Joko and his minions, by forms of CC. > > > > > > another example: > > > Balthazar, has a lot going, MANY, MANY small attacks. Waves, bursts, that weird loopydoopy fire. > > > But all in all, all of those attacks are weak. If you stay out of the way of the majority, you can outheal about 25% of the remaining damage with ease. > > > Now, lets add a challenge. The area shrinks over time, the fire walls close in. Now you're forced to deal with the same amount of MANY, MANY small attacks in an ever decreasing safe area. And attacks like Sabetha's fire wall would work great here as well. Now in a raid that is an absolute death skill, for the story mode it could be 75% damage skill, downing players already severely hurt. > > > But in that last case, remember that even in absolute death cases, you can instantly resurect and continue the fight anyway. > > > > > > last example: > > > Tequatl. YES, tequatl, the boss overhauled in an effort to make him hard again. they can give him more health, makes his attacks more damaging, every playing could come naked. However, NONE OF THAT would add ANY difficulty or challenge. BECAUSE THERE IS A WAYPOINT NEXT TO THE BATTLEFIELD. > > > You can infinitely die and run back. you can rebuild the lost turrets. > > > A good way to renew the difficulty on tequatl would be: > > > a) Make the turret defending more challenging, and increase cooldown on their [2] as they get damaged > > > b) Make damage on the batteries persistant, so defending them becomes more of a task > > > c) add more enemies designed for the sole purpose of interfering with the regular fighting tactics, and special enemies designed to damage the batteries. > > > > > > All in all, most bosses can be improved upon. In this current state, people are not being punished for ignoring mechanics. you can faceplant any boss, and with patience, that's a valid tactic. however, challenge is arisen from mechanics and field effects. Not from raw dps or lacking armor. The latter will only increase the length of the fight, not the difficulty. > > > > I think people trying to do tripple trouble and serpent ire would like to have a word with you about being able to faceplant any boss. > > In EU I constantly see advertising of when the community something-or-other is going to do the next triple trouble run. I would imagine that most people who want to do it would try to get into that organised group. I think they even do it daily. Serpents' Ire, though, I think is an issue of not enough players? I don't know, I've never really tried it, but Vabbi always seems pretty barren of players, so I'm just speculating. yea 1 map do it 3 times a day if your out of luck getting into that 1 map your not getting your kill that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > @"Biff.5312" said: > > > @"Menadena.7482" said: > > > *sigh* > > > > > > Another 'I need a challenge' thread. You can come up with plenty of challenges. Like roll an alt and walk to Orr as soon as you rez. Or take on what is meant to be a group boss (that nobody does because it has a high failure rate) singlehandedly. > > > > > > This is part of why so many things in the world now are so kitteningly ridiculous to beat. > > > > Those are fine ideas, but it gives a choice between absurdly easy and incredibly difficult. It would be nice if there were more challenges, both in world events and solo play, that are more appropriate to the average level of play. For instance, nobody has the least trouble with world bosses anymore. They should be more challenging, not to the point where most players are frustrated, but you should at least feel a sense of accomplishment when you defeat them. Maybe more achieves related to specific aspects of the fights would help, as those are my only goals during such fights. > > agreed, I remember when the game just came out, we did Fire elemental with 10-15 people (if we were lucky) and it was always finger crosses if we were gonna make it. > Now the boss dies before it's spawning animation is finished. The usual cycle is: ANet introduces something that is somewhat challenging; some groups/players fail; some of those players complain; the content is either nerfed, or not; eventually, players figure it out and success becomes routine. Then, there's power creep. Fire Elemental has succumbed to all three -- nerfs, players got better, and power creep. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes. > > Check this out: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19421/suggestion-stop-making-story-bosses-hard-ls4-spoilers/p1 > allowing the players to clear the content through rez rushing isn't really a good option, even for those players that can't handle the difficulty. Is it not? I'm not saying I _like_ res rushing, but some players are going to complain about everything. Just like some people are complaining about res rushing. I'd like a better solution, myself. But what is that solution? I'm guessing ANet has the dual goal of offering more interesting story fights while allowing for broad accessibility. I can see no other reason for the changes to story boss fights (from Personal Story through today) coupled with the res rush "feature." If they're going to drop res rushing, what accommodation will take its place, and would that be better -- or worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis Thuras.8795 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > Play with a cat walking on your keyboard. You definitely improved my evening :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I agree with the OP in this thread. The Story instances are a joke. You go in - you're guaranteed to get out and get out a winner. Gone are the days of GW1 where if you had the wrong build or wrong approach you couldn't complete content. That game forced you to adapt, to improvise, to try something new or at least try the same thing you always did but better. You needed to improve, rethink. In GW2 you don't need to do that. The game wins itself for you. It's probably a staple of modern gaming at this point. Everyone has to be a winner, everyone has to make it, everyone has to be capable of finishing. I guess "new age" gamers aren't the same as the old age ones. No patience, no desire to improve and struggle. Otherwise game designers wouldn't be making gameplay experiences that basically win themselves - but still - this is pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > > Go play raids if you want challenge. > > > > I already am, but I got into this game for the story. > > I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I > > mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become. > > GW story was (initially, anyway) a group game. GW2 story is not. GW2 story is aimed at (roughly) the midpoint in player skill. Anyone who is on the low side of that divide will struggle, but has the option to turn story into group content. Anyone above the (hypothetical) midpoint will find it too easy. One thing is certain, if a player is capable of doing well in raids, then story is going to be too easy because it's not aimed at you. > > As with dungeons, players can opt to add challenge themselves in GW2 story. A manual boss fight reset (player chooses to start the fight over) would be one way to do that. Now, if only the game supported you in doing so by saving progress so you could bypass the trash mobs and dialogue that comes before the boss fight. > > Going back to GW, power creep and Heroes went a long way towards removing the challenge from GW story instances. That's why we had hard mode. Why can't we have a hard mode in GW2? I blame the decision to make GW2 an MMO. MMO's have increasingly turned to a broader market than players who want a challenge seem able to provide. Likewise, making the game an MMO meant that hard mode was no longer an option, so harder PvE content is limited to raids and top tier fractals. > > I get the frustration, I'm just not sure there is going to be anything ANet can do about it because of design decisions that were made 6-10 years ago. I agree with you. And the decision to make it an MMO was easy - even bad players pay. So everyone has to be given a good chance to play and give up their money. They made the game easier, so it appeals to more people, so they can get revenue from more people. What I'd want to see is difficulty tiers for story missions with different rewards. Why couldn't this be possible? I mean - we do have story instances. Give us hard mode for those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > > > Go play raids if you want challenge. > > > > > > I already am, but I got into this game for the story. > > > I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I > > > mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become. > > > > GW story was (initially, anyway) a group game. GW2 story is not. GW2 story is aimed at (roughly) the midpoint in player skill. Anyone who is on the low side of that divide will struggle, but has the option to turn story into group content. Anyone above the (hypothetical) midpoint will find it too easy. One thing is certain, if a player is capable of doing well in raids, then story is going to be too easy because it's not aimed at you. > > > > As with dungeons, players can opt to add challenge themselves in GW2 story. A manual boss fight reset (player chooses to start the fight over) would be one way to do that. Now, if only the game supported you in doing so by saving progress so you could bypass the trash mobs and dialogue that comes before the boss fight. > > > > Going back to GW, power creep and Heroes went a long way towards removing the challenge from GW story instances. That's why we had hard mode. Why can't we have a hard mode in GW2? I blame the decision to make GW2 an MMO. MMO's have increasingly turned to a broader market than players who want a challenge seem able to provide. Likewise, making the game an MMO meant that hard mode was no longer an option, so harder PvE content is limited to raids and top tier fractals. > > > > I get the frustration, I'm just not sure there is going to be anything ANet can do about it because of design decisions that were made 6-10 years ago. > > I agree with you. And the decision to make it an MMO was easy - even bad players pay. So everyone has to be given a good chance to play and give up their money. > They made the game easier, so it appeals to more people, so they can get revenue from more people. > What I'd want to see is difficulty tiers for story missions with different rewards. Why couldn't this be possible? I mean - we do have story instances. Give us hard mode for those? I'd be fine with this, they already have a system in place for it in the form of challenge motes and there is already precedent for it with how the last chapter of heart of thorns has a challenge mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Funny for me.. I like challenge but not too challenging that it creates stress and frustration or tension between game and other players .. generally I find current game is good with raids fractal.. story content etc..coming in slow pase. I personally would like to see the game cater for wider community.. so we have more population and more friendly ppl to play with.. I find the old style living story that comes frequently is good. It was probably the period when gw2 was most populated..It feels that way anyway. The game slowed down a bit but it never stop developing.. and contents are free once you have the core and expansions. I don't think any other mmorpg is as competitive. But then I don't play other mmo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 How fun, just yesterday I read a topic named "Stop making story bosses hard!". Now I feel sad for anet...they can't make everybody happy since these are two completely opposite opinions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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