Linken.6345 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P And thats diffrent from the current guilds who do training runs how? Experience raiders get frustrated when clueless people screw up sure, but thats becouse said group wanted experienced people that aint clueless maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P 90% of lore in raids is presented through pages, journals ect that can be found on the floor. If you want that, just go into a cleaed instance and explore/read everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > @"shejesa.3712" said: > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > I mean it's not like you can't fake the KP/LI links. I mean if you've watched guides enough to know the mechanics, you should be able to bluff it easy. I did. > > > > And people like me or any other raiders who are experienced will be able to tell you faked your LI for most of the time :3 ofc, you can fake it, but it would take more skill than just to start a macro, you'd have to get it to make random short pauses between links. And even then we can ask you to split, you should be prepared for such an opportunity as well :3 > > Well I've duped enough experienced raiders like yourself, so maybe you need to up your game. :3 Actually you didn't. Kill Proof is used to acquire players with enough skill. Obviously if you managed to not rouse suspicion you were skilled enough. The fact that you faked your KP and access is secondary. Had you faked yourself into the group and not performed, you would have been replaced. It happens and takes time, KP and LI demands are there to keep the replacing to a minimum and not have to try out people to see how they perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P > > And thats diffrent from the current guilds who do training runs how? > Experience raiders get frustrated when clueless people screw up sure, but thats becouse said group wanted experienced people that aint clueless maybe? Not everyone has a guild who does that nor do they know people willing to teach them or tolerate their inexperience. Knowing the mechanics of a raid boss is like 80% of the requirements for being classed as experienced.. and reading about mechanics and experiencing them is not the same thing. An easy mode would give players a much easier introduction to raiding without having the fear their mistakes will get them verbally abused. Stripping the rewards away guarantees that those who are there for the them will eventually move up to normal raids once they feel confident they know what they are doing and won't be treated like dirt for not knowing.. plus without the loot reward there's absolutely no penalty for failing.. nor prize for winning other than experience. The way Raids are right now a lot of people are not even interested in getting into them because of how many negative experiences others have had with so called experienced players/elitists.. thus raids have become a low population content type that doesn't justify the developers time to continue supporting. More people playing raids is good for everyone.. anything that can make that happen gets a thumbs up from me, and I think a no reward easy mode would be a good way to bring in more players, get them experienced with each of the bosses mechanics and get them making frainds/guilds/groups they will eventually do proper raids with one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P > > 90% of lore in raids is presented through pages, journals ect that can be found on the floor. If you want that, just go into a cleaed instance and explore/read everything. Not an option if you don't know anyone who can clear a raid wing.. you still miss that 10% too (Am not sure if you can rewatch cutscenes etc) Many would still prefer to actually play the content while experiencing the lore.. for some it just isn't an option, and a lot of people feel like they're not welcome there which is a strong motivator to keep them away from the content indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > > > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > > > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > > > > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P > > > > 90% of lore in raids is presented through pages, journals ect that can be found on the floor. If you want that, just go into a cleaed instance and explore/read everything. > > Not an option if you don't know anyone who can clear a raid wing.. you still miss that 10% too (Am not sure if you can rewatch cutscenes etc) Is about 5g to get some1 to open a finished instance for you in the lfg, some even do it for free of you're willing to ask around and wait for a bit in the lfg/aerodrome. And yes you can rewatch cutscenes at the end. > Many would still prefer to actually play the content while experiencing the lore.. for some it just isn't an option, and a lot of people feel like they're not welcome there which is a strong motivator to keep them away from the content indefinitely. What exactly are you looking to get out of a boss fight outside of the required mechanics? The 1 line your toon will spout on gors? Sabetha yelling "Burn burn!!!"? Knckle's "I can lead you to them" line? Raid bosses, other than Xera, don't talk alot, and you don't really have the luxury of listening to Saul/Xera monologing while you're trying to not die and kill the boss, especially if you're new. Also, what's stopping all those people from just grouping together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > > > > I am literally only a fan of easy mode raids for the lore locked behind them. > > > I wouldn't even care if they had little to no loot at all.. I'd run them purely for the lore. > > > It would be as simple as disabling loot and and nerfing 20-40% of the bosses HP away. > > > > > > It would give players who want to raid but cant an easier introduction to the concept.. allow them to learn each bosses mechanics in a less stressful environment and when they do finally join a proper raid group they will already know the mechanics and won't end up making mistakes that make the advanced raiders turn into crazy people that scream at everyone who messes up :P > > > > 90% of lore in raids is presented through pages, journals ect that can be found on the floor. If you want that, just go into a cleaed instance and explore/read everything. > > Not an option if you don't know anyone who can clear a raid wing.. you still miss that 10% too (Am not sure if you can rewatch cutscenes etc) > Many would still prefer to actually play the content while experiencing the lore.. for some it just isn't an option, and a lot of people feel like they're not welcome there which is a strong motivator to keep them away from the content indefinitely. Boss fights dont have any lore at all, with the exception of dhuum who has 1 event. The extra 10% comes from 1 line either the boss or your character will say at the start of each fight. You can just go in, hear that line then die. Every other piece of dialogue are audio cues to mechanics. If some people want to play the content while experiencing the lore, why not do that? Having an easy mode wont be playing the content either, it will be different content. Noone is unwelcome in raids if they bring and play a build which can fulfil their role in a group, even if its as off meta as they come. You wont be welcome if you take a healer slot, bring a warrior and give 0 heals though. You also wont be welcome if you join a dps slot and then do less damage than a healer. I think thats pretty reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > Not an option if you don't know anyone who can clear a raid wing.. you still miss that 10% too (Am not sure if you can rewatch cutscenes etc) > > Is about 5g to get some1 to open a finished instance for you in the lfg, some even do it for free of you're willing to ask around and wait for a bit in the lfg/aerodrome. And yes you can rewatch cutscenes at the end. People who don't raid or are put off from raids are never even going to check the LFG or venture into the aerodrome as they have no reason to. For the most part they've given up on this area of the game.. if they heard a easy mode was coming it would rekindle that interest, even if there were no rewards. > > > Many would still prefer to actually play the content while experiencing the lore.. for some it just isn't an option, and a lot of people feel like they're not welcome there which is a strong motivator to keep them away from the content indefinitely. > > What exactly are you looking to get out of a boss fight outside of the required mechanics? The 1 line your toon will spout on gors? Sabetha yelling "Burn burn!!!"? Knckle's "I can lead you to them" line? Raid bosses, other than Xera, don't talk alot, and you don't really have the luxury of listening to Saul/Xera monologing while you're trying to not die and kill the boss, especially if you're new. Also, what's stopping all those people from just grouping together? Well go for the lore stay to learn the boss mechanics.. Fighting easier versions of the bosses isn't about the lore or dialogue it's about experiencing the mechanics without the pressure and fear of being abused for screwing up. Some people who've been turned off raids have never beaten a boss or had much time to fully experience one. They usually get kicked before they get the chance or struggle to find enough people because some group members don't like their build, class, their gear isnt full ascended (which it doesn't need to be) or in general is completely unwilling to play with a noob anyway. And many more are turned off just by hearing those kinds of negative experiences. > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Boss fights dont have any lore at all, with the exception of dhuum who has 1 event. The extra 10% comes from 1 line either the boss or your character will say at the start of each fight. You can just go in, hear that line then die. Every other piece of dialogue are audio cues to mechanics. > > If some people want to play the content while experiencing the lore, why not do that? Having an easy mode wont be playing the content either, it will be different content. Noone is unwelcome in raids if they bring and play a build which can fulfil their role in a group, even if its as off meta as they come. You wont be welcome if you take a healer slot, bring a warrior and give 0 heals though. You also wont be welcome if you join a dps slot and then do less damage than a healer. I think thats pretty reasonable. Because they either can't do that or feel like they can't do it.. As I said an easy mode should be little more than the exact same boss with less health and maybe slightly less dmg. Mechanically it would be identical to a normal raid and without the ability to get raid rewards from the easy mode everyone in that instance will be there for one of 3 reasons. 1. Experienced raiders who want to help and train newer raiders and get more people interested in raiding by giving them a positive experience. 2. Inexperienced raiders who want to learn the boss mechanics without feeling like their mistakes will annoy/cripple the rest of the group and possibly subject them to abuse from their team mates. 3. People who want to experience the lore of the raids but also want some experience of what raid content is like. You say nobody is unwelcome in raids and while that is technically true a lot of people still feel unwelcome there because of the elitist reputation the content has. They don't feel like they are good enough etc and they don't want to get yelled at for not knowing what to do. It's the whole need experience to get job.. need job to get experience conundrum. You need to play raids to get experience in raids but if you feel ostracised from raids because you don't have experience in raids.. how can you ever get that experience? I believe a no reward easy mode would help a lot of people break out of that mentality and get them interested in giving raids another chance. And if it did then great.. raids get a lot more popular with more exeprienced players joining the game mode and everyone wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > People who don't raid or are put off from raids are never even going to check the LFG or venture into the aerodrome as they have no reason to. > For the most part they've given up on this area of the game.. if they heard a easy mode was coming it would rekindle that interest, even if there were no rewards. > > If people cant even be bothered to open LFG then they cant be bothered to experience the lore that much. If they really were interested they would at least be looking for all welcome parties. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Some people who've been turned off raids have never beaten a boss or had much time to fully experience one. > They usually get kicked before they get the chance or struggle to find enough people because some group members don't like their build, class, their gear isnt full ascended (which it doesn't need to be) or in general is completely unwilling to play with a noob anyway. > And many more are turned off just by hearing those kinds of negative experiences. > Like i said before, noone will be kicked for running off meta as long as their build can meet the role they are taking in the raid. However far far too many players jump into a raid group with a random open world build and utterly fail to meet that roles needs, causing problems for the whole team so ofc they will be kicked. This isnt being elitist, this is find a team that can clear the content, and if people dont want to spend time understand whats needed from them in a raid they shouldnt be there. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Because they either can't do that or feel like they can't do it.. > As I said an easy mode should be little more than the exact same boss with less health and maybe slightly less dmg. > Mechanically it would be identical to a normal raid > If they cant do that, and cant meet the basic needs of a group in a raid then no they shouldnt be in a raid, unless its an all welcome run in which case they can enter, see the 1 line dialogue and then die. You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. Please explain how anet can nerf these mechanics without creating the problem they have in fractals. Where people learn in t1/2 to facetank aoe and not bother dealing with CC, then come into t3 and fail non stop. Its well known t3 is the hell because people still havnt learned what to do by that stage, even though they have 'easy mode' fractals to teach them. How would raids be any different? > @"Teratus.2859" said: > You say nobody is unwelcome in raids and while that is technically true a lot of people still feel unwelcome there because of the elitist reputation the content has. > They don't feel like they are good enough etc and they don't want to get yelled at for not knowing what to do. > It's the whole need experience to get job.. need job to get experience conundrum. > You need to play raids to get experience in raids but if you feel ostracised from raids because you don't have experience in raids.. how can you ever get that experience? There are tons of training groups which will create exactly the type of group they are aiming for, one where you wont be yelled at for failing mechanics. Probly is people dont want to put in any effort to join these. Crossroads Inn in EU is an open for all discord where you can sign up for any boss and have someone patiently explain and teach yo the boss. They dont ask for ascended gear either, only correct builds for the content. I cant see why devs should invest in easy mode, taking 2x as long to release raids, which often only see new content once a year. when 1. it wouldnt actually prepare or teach players anything about normal raiding 2. There are already plenty of opportunities for people who seriously want to try and learn to raid available if they are motivated enough to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > People who don't raid or are put off from raids are never even going to check the LFG or venture into the aerodrome as they have no reason to. > > For the most part they've given up on this area of the game.. if they heard a easy mode was coming it would rekindle that interest, even if there were no rewards. > > > > If people cant even be bothered to open LFG then they cant be bothered to experience the lore that much. If they really were interested they would at least be looking for all welcome parties. > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > Some people who've been turned off raids have never beaten a boss or had much time to fully experience one. > > They usually get kicked before they get the chance or struggle to find enough people because some group members don't like their build, class, their gear isnt full ascended (which it doesn't need to be) or in general is completely unwilling to play with a noob anyway. > > > And many more are turned off just by hearing those kinds of negative experiences. > > > Like i said before, noone will be kicked for running off meta as long as their build can meet the role they are taking in the raid. However far far too many players jump into a raid group with a random open world build and utterly fail to meet that roles needs, causing problems for the whole team so ofc they will be kicked. This isnt being elitist, this is find a team that can clear the content, and if people dont want to spend time understand whats needed from them in a raid they shouldnt be there. > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > Because they either can't do that or feel like they can't do it.. > > As I said an easy mode should be little more than the exact same boss with less health and maybe slightly less dmg. > > Mechanically it would be identical to a normal raid > > > > > If they cant do that, and cant meet the basic needs of a group in a raid then no they shouldnt be in a raid, unless its an all welcome run in which case they can enter, see the 1 line dialogue and then die. You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. Please explain how anet can nerf these mechanics without creating the problem they have in fractals. Where people learn in t1/2 to facetank aoe and not bother dealing with CC, then come into t3 and fail non stop. Its well known t3 is the hell because people still havnt learned what to do by that stage, even though they have 'easy mode' fractals to teach them. How would raids be any different? > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > You say nobody is unwelcome in raids and while that is technically true a lot of people still feel unwelcome there because of the elitist reputation the content has. > > They don't feel like they are good enough etc and they don't want to get yelled at for not knowing what to do. > > It's the whole need experience to get job.. need job to get experience conundrum. > > You need to play raids to get experience in raids but if you feel ostracised from raids because you don't have experience in raids.. how can you ever get that experience? > > There are tons of training groups which will create exactly the type of group they are aiming for, one where you wont be yelled at for failing mechanics. Probly is people dont want to put in any effort to join these. Crossroads Inn in EU is an open for all discord where you can sign up for any boss and have someone patiently explain and teach yo the boss. They dont ask for ascended gear either, only correct builds for the content. > > I cant see why devs should invest in easy mode, taking 2x as long to release raids, which often only see new content once a year. when > 1. it wouldnt actually prepare or teach players anything about normal raiding > 2. There are already plenty of opportunities for people who seriously want to try and learn to raid available if they are motivated enough to use them. Here is the thing. Have an easy mode for people to play an easy mode raid and leave it at that. I would bet that clumps of people would play an easy mode and only an easy mode to see some of the boss fights. If those only want to do the easy mode and would never do the normal mode, that’s fine. That’s still bringing people into the raid content and actually gives Anet more bang for their buck. In terms of taking up more time to design etc. I Surprised that no one isn’t up in arms on the CMs. Which can’t be repeated and is a one hit content, now that is truly a waste dev resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Here is the thing. Have an easy mode for people to play an easy mode raid and leave it at that. I would bet that clumps of people would play an easy mode and only an easy mode to see some of the boss fights. If those only want to do the easy mode and would never do the normal mode, that’s fine. That’s still bringing people into the raid content and actually gives Anet more bang for their buck. > > In terms of taking up more time to design etc. I > Surprised that no one isn’t up in arms on the CMs. Which can’t be repeated and is a one hit content, now that is truly a waste dev resources. You literally didnt adress anything I said. Not one part. It does not give Anet more 'bang for their buck' as raids actually generate no revenue. They just exist to keep people who want more challenge playing the game and therefore, spending money on the gemstore. Without challenging content like raids these people would leave the game. Bringing people who have no interested in challenging content into said content is an absolute waste of resources, they are better off creating more living story. If they only want to see each bossfight ONCE and then leave, well thats even worse. Total lack of replability in easy mode and a waste of dev time. Im not a fan of CM;s but they only add 1 new, simple mechanic per bossfight, usually using systems already in the raid boss itself. The only exception is Dhuum. For example cairn already has the special action key. Its new mechanic is the special action key is used every 10 seconds. Hardly comparable to redesigning that entire fight for an easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > If people cant even be bothered to open LFG then they cant be bothered to experience the lore that much. If they really were interested they would at least be looking for all welcome parties. Like I said, it's because they've given up on the concept of raiding in general.. not the lore itself. Add to that they've probably gone onto youtube and watched a raid lore video and pretty much just accepted that that is the closest they'll ever get to experiencing the raid content themselves. On a second note as someone who always uses All welcome in LFG for fractal and dungeon groups, I have never seen that in the raid LFG.. Never. > Like i said before, noone will be kicked for running off meta as long as their build can meet the role they are taking in the raid. However far far too many players jump into a raid group with a random open world build and utterly fail to meet that roles needs, causing problems for the whole team so ofc they will be kicked. This isnt being elitist, this is find a team that can clear the content, and if people dont want to spend time understand whats needed from them in a raid they shouldnt be there. And yet they have no place to actually learn those things in game. Finding a team that can clear the content is all well and good but that is always going to favor experienced players over those who are not. The same thing happened with dungeons and fractals way back in the day and a lot of players simply avoided the content because of it, until the elitism died down and many players stopped caring so much about how fast you could beat a dungeon and started taking less experienced players along because they could carry them if needed. Seems funny considering how easy so many people find them now.. and the elite raid players are getting to the same point with raids as well. But with the difficulty curve and low population numbers I doubt raids will ever get to the same point. People are only going to learn how to raid by experience and failure.. the same way every current active raider in the game had to learn when they were first introduced. And that means that the less experienced players are always going to be cast aside at the earliest opportunity.. because like you said it's all about finding a team that can clear the content.. and anyone who interferes with that will likely be kicked and subsequently denied the chance to learn. You can't blame people for feeling unwelcome in raids when that's happened to them every time they've tried to get involved. >You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. That's not true.. every raid fail i've ever been in was partly due to messing up a mechanic and mostly because we failed to kill the boss within the given time. The one shot mechanics are essential for learning how these bosses work. The point of an easy mode would be to give new raid players a place to learn these mechanics through actual experience with them without being a burden on a normal raid group who's sole goal is to get the kill and have no patience for some noob in their group who doesn't know what to do. Everyone in the easy mode will be there to learn.. without the reward the kill is nothing more than a sign that you're ready for the real thing and failing the raid has absolutely no consequence other than being a learning experience for whoever screwed up. There's absolutely no reason for anyone to get annoyed or rage at someone for screwing up becuase there is literally no prize at the end being denied to them for failing. > There are tons of training groups which will create exactly the type of group they are aiming for, one where you wont be yelled at for failing mechanics. Probly is people dont want to put in any effort to join these. Crossroads Inn in EU is an open for all discord where you can sign up for any boss and have someone patiently explain and teach yo the boss. They dont ask for ascended gear either, only correct builds for the content. > > I cant see why devs should invest in easy mode, taking 2x as long to release raids, which often only see new content once a year. when > 1. it wouldnt actually prepare or teach players anything about normal raiding > 2. There are already plenty of opportunities for people who seriously want to try and learn to raid available if they are motivated enough to use them. Only people I know who do training groups is 1 out of 5 guilds that i'm in.. I've never heard of Crossroads Inn and chances are a lot of non raiders haven't either. Not everyone is informed enough about groups like that to be aware of them, many players don't even come to these forums or have a Reddit account, I don't have one myself. An easy mode would not be that difficult or time consuming to add in. They could add in a green challenge mote style object to signify an easy mode and all they would need to do is knock about 20% of the bosses HP off when it's active and give players a perma buff for say 10% damage reduction or something like that. I've made mods for games that literally change a few numbers around like that It would probably take one person an hour or two at most to add in something like that.. probably less than half an hour for someone who actually knows what they are doing and understands the game engine. As Tyson said.. making the content more difficult with CM's is significantly more time consuming and resource demanding, likely due to balance and testing requirements. An Easy mode option would be far less trouble/resource demanding and far more useful to way more people than a CM is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 In WoW LFR system you get a buff for every time you wipe. A similar feature could be implemented, reducing damage to players and increasing the damage a player does. Some group might require 1 stack while others maybe 5. If your group is constantly killing the bosses first go, you might be ready for normal mode. On the other hand, some players might just be happy with just doing the easy mode and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > If people cant even be bothered to open LFG then they cant be bothered to experience the lore that much. If they really were interested they would at least be looking for all welcome parties. > > Like I said, it's because they've given up on the concept of raiding in general.. not the lore itself. > Add to that they've probably gone onto youtube and watched a raid lore video and pretty much just accepted that that is the closest they'll ever get to experiencing the raid content themselves. > On a second note as someone who always uses All welcome in LFG for fractal and dungeon groups, I have never seen that in the raid LFG. Never. All welcome groups tend to fill up fast. As said before, there are people out there that open finished instances. They could prob advertise themselves in la, but I have a feeling they'll just get drowned out anyway. Also those searching for the lore in raids can ask in la too. At worst they'll get some snide remark, at best they'll either get an offer or get pointed to the right direction. However, if they do want to experience mechanics, then they either have to start their own group, or join a guild that will take them along. > > Like i said before, noone will be kicked for running off meta as long as their build can meet the role they are taking in the raid. However far far too many players jump into a raid group with a random open world build and utterly fail to meet that roles needs, causing problems for the whole team so ofc they will be kicked. This isnt being elitist, this is find a team that can clear the content, and if people dont want to spend time understand whats needed from them in a raid they shouldnt be there. > > And yet they have no place to actually learn those things in game. > Finding a team that can clear the content is all well and good but that is always going to favor experienced players over those who are not. > The same thing happened with dungeons and fractals way back in the day and a lot of players simply avoided the content because of it, until the elitism died down and many players stopped caring so much about how fast you could beat a dungeon and started taking less experienced players along because they could carry them if needed. > Seems funny considering how easy so many people find them now.. and the elite raid players are getting to the same point with raids as well. > But with the difficulty curve and low population numbers I doubt raids will ever get to the same point. It is a problem imo that there is nowhere to practice mechanics, but the general concensus however, is that it generally won't matter to then, especially if they're playing dps, as the chrono and druid will usually handle a majority, if not all, the mechanics and they just have to focus on performing their rotations. Rotations can be learned by practicing them in the training area which you don't need a tag to get in to. As long as they can pull off respectable numbers there, they should do fine. Players who want to play chrono or druid however are a different ball park. Newer chronos usually asked to go off-tank and watch how the tank does it, or given a mile of patience considering how difficult it is to find one, while newer druids are just asked to focus on healing while more seasoned players do the mechanic for them. > People are only going to learn how to raid by experience and failure.. the same way every current active raider in the game had to learn when they were first introduced. > And that means that the less experienced players are always going to be cast aside at the earliest opportunity.. because like you said it's all about finding a team that can clear the content.. and anyone who interferes with that will likely be kicked and subsequently denied the chance to learn. > You can't blame people for feeling unwelcome in raids when that's happened to them every time they've tried to get involved. Training runs are out there. The friction lies when inexperienced people try to join groups looking for experienced people. This is not unique to raids, as I've had it happen that inexperienced people joined a p2 cm dungeon that was advertising for exp only. > >You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. > > That's not true.. every raid fail i've ever been in was partly due to messing up a mechanic and mostly because we failed to kill the boss within the given time. > The one shot mechanics are essential for learning how these bosses work. > The point of an easy mode would be to give new raid players a place to learn these mechanics through actual experience with them without being a burden on a normal raid group who's sole goal is to get the kill and have no patience for some noob in their group who doesn't know what to do. > Everyone in the easy mode will be there to learn.. without the reward the kill is nothing more than a sign that you're ready for the real thing and failing the raid has absolutely no consequence other than being a learning experience for whoever screwed up. > There's absolutely no reason for anyone to get annoyed or rage at someone for screwing up becuase there is literally no prize at the end being denied to them for failing. Counter arguement for this point is fractals. T1 and 2 offer what you would consider easy mode, but once players get to t3, it becomes a clown fiesta as they find strategies they used before no longer work. This is why raid training mide should absolutely focus on mechanics and punish groups as if they were doing it on normal. > > There are tons of training groups which will create exactly the type of group they are aiming for, one where you wont be yelled at for failing mechanics. Probly is people dont want to put in any effort to join these. Crossroads Inn in EU is an open for all discord where you can sign up for any boss and have someone patiently explain and teach yo the boss. They dont ask for ascended gear either, only correct builds for the content. > > > > I cant see why devs should invest in easy mode, taking 2x as long to release raids, which often only see new content once a year. when > > 1. it wouldnt actually prepare or teach players anything about normal raiding > > 2. There are already plenty of opportunities for people who seriously want to try and learn to raid available if they are motivated enough to use them. > > Only people I know who do training groups is 1 out of 5 guilds that i'm in.. I've never heard of Crossroads Inn and chances are a lot of non raiders haven't either. They've been advrtised and pointed to every time a new player asks how to get into raiding. > Not everyone is informed enough about groups like that to be aware of them, many players don't even come to these forums or have a Reddit account, I don't have one myself. They don't have to. They can ask in la or the aerodrome for raid training guilds, I've pointed a few people to these guilds myself a few times. > An easy mode would not be that difficult or time consuming to add in. Citation needed > They could add in a green challenge mote style object to signify an easy mode and all they would need to do is knock about 20% of the bosses HP off when it's active and give players a perma buff for say 10% damage reduction or something like that. > I've made mods for games that literally change a few numbers around like that It would probably take one person an hour or two at most to add in something like that.. probably less than half an hour for someone who actually knows what they are doing and understands the game engine. Mmo games or single player games? And does it use thesame spaghetti code anet uses? > As Tyson said.. making the content more difficult with CM's is significantly more time consuming and resource demanding, likely due to balance and testing requirements. You still need to balance easy mode to ensure that it is easy, but not to the point of open world boss easy, i.e. people have to pay attention and do mechanics. Otherwise we'll end up with a t3 fractal scenario which won't get any new player in, and will prob make people require more kp. Additionally, most people can't even agree on what an easy mode is/should be. > An Easy mode option would be far less trouble/resource demanding and far more useful to way more people than a CM is. Citation needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > It is a problem imo that there is nowhere to practice mechanics, but the general concensus however, is that it generally won't matter to then, especially if they're playing dps, as the chrono and druid will usually handle a majority, if not all, the mechanics and they just have to focus on performing their rotations. Rotations can be learned by practicing them in the training area which you don't need a tag to get in to. As long as they can pull off respectable numbers there, they should do fine. Players who want to play chrono or druid however are a different ball park. Newer chronos usually asked to go off-tank and watch how the tank does it, or given a mile of patience considering how difficult it is to find one, while newer druids are just asked to focus on healing while more seasoned players do the mechanic for them. That would be the point of an easy mode.. it's more about giving people a place they can practice said mechanics without having to interact with players who are there to beat the boss. The reason many noobs join up with groups looking for exp only is because they don't have any other choice. That's partly what leads to the negative experiences that drive them away. The same happened with fractals and dungeons back in the day too. > > >You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. > Counter arguement for this point is fractals. T1 and 2 offer what you would consider easy mode, but once players get to t3, it becomes a clown fiesta as they find strategies they used before no longer work. This is why raid training mide should absolutely focus on mechanics and punish groups as if they were doing it on normal. In all honesty I never had this problem.. both when I moved up to t3 and when taking t3 noobs along. Then again my fractal character is capable of carrying a group of noobs fairly well even in T3 so that's probably why. The easy raid training mode would focus on mechanics as i've said multiple times the biggest difference would be that it offers no rewards. Experienced raiders would have no reason to participate unless they were there to train others, and it would give newer players a place they could gain that much needed experience without the toxicity from people who are only there to get the kill and reward. Your mistakes wouldn't cost anyone anything.. that's the point. > > An easy mode would not be that difficult or time consuming to add in. > > Citation needed Really depends on how they do it But if it was done through a sort of CM mote system it could probably be as simple as creating a unique buff on players and a debuff on bosses while that easy mode mote was active. They'd need only create an easy mode mote which could be as simple as recolouring the blue CM mote to Green, create a permabuff for players that disables their loot and gives whatever damage reduction the devs decided was fair and create a debuff for bosses that cuts their HP by whatever the devs again think was fair and then add it to each raid wing probably using the same buff and debuff for each boss. Add to that a Raid training section in the LFG and it's pretty much good to go. > Mmo games or single player games? And does it use thesame spaghetti code anet uses? Single and I honestly couldn't tell you, I'm not familiar with Gw2's game engine but I was just making an example that changing number values like Hp isn't that complex. I doubt knocking 20% HP off vale guardian would effect anything other than the Hp of vale guardian.. but if it did then this spaghetti code you speak of must be absurdly annoying to work with xD > You still need to balance easy mode to ensure that it is easy, but not to the point of open world boss easy, i.e. people have to pay attention and do mechanics. Otherwise we'll end up with a t3 fractal scenario which won't get any new player in, and will prob make people require more kp. Additionally, most people can't even agree on what an easy mode is/should be. Not so much actually, The HP decrease is more to help training groups with the time limit mechanic.. it would have the same effect more or less of adding a longer timer which would be less effective imo.. the main point of the easy mode would be to seperate the experienced players from the new players while making raids more appealing to those new players by removing the toxicity/elitism that is the main thing that keeps a lot of people away. It benefits both experienced and noobs alike since noobs will no longer have to try and sneak into groups looking for exp members.. they'll have a specified place they can go where they can get that raid experience they need along side other players who are looking for the same thing. A player who's learned in the easy mode will be able to then join an experienced pug group with the required knowledge and experience obtained in the easy mode and still contribute enough to beat a boss even if he's not putting out the best DPS since everything would look and feel exactly the same to them, the only real difference is that they will know what they are doing before they join that group.. and that's exactly what the vast majority of experienced raiders are looking for when they put up an LFG in the first place. In the long run raids become less toxic and the overall population of experienced raid players increases.. that's what an easy mode could potentially bring to the game.. and that's a win win for all raiders imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"shejesa.3712" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > There's probably more that I haven't thought of. We have a community that unironically demands 100 unstable cosmic essence for CM100. The notion that people can't get into raids just because they're all leechers or aren't trying is rather silly. > > No offence, but are you even aware how huge a difference there is between people with 10KP and 100KP, not to mention a stack++? > > It's so huge that I'd rather stick with people from my KP bracket than keep wiping or wasting food with 10KP people. > > > > > > Though I sell off my essence, I do so in bulk lots of 100 or so. I've amassed at least a stack with how many times I've done CM100. Having done this, I will reaffirm that 100 ess requirements for CM100 are utter frivolities that offers no distinct advantage over any reasonable essence demand, and continues to be wholly illogical by demanding players save up their essence instead of spending it on the shiny infusions it is meant to buy. 100 KP doesn't prove skill, it proves either monotony or intimate knowledge of the chat system. From my experience there is no discernible performance difference between a 30 essence group and a 100 essence group, with the exception that people at 100 essence are much more hostile and paranoid. Dunno mate. It has happened for me to join a sub-100 kp group and not regret it, but *very* rarely. Usually I prefer to seek groups asking for 150-200 or more. The difference is dramatic. Some sub-100 kp groups legitimately struggled to kill Arkk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > It is a problem imo that there is nowhere to practice mechanics, but the general concensus however, is that it generally won't matter to then, especially if they're playing dps, as the chrono and druid will usually handle a majority, if not all, the mechanics and they just have to focus on performing their rotations. Rotations can be learned by practicing them in the training area which you don't need a tag to get in to. As long as they can pull off respectable numbers there, they should do fine. Players who want to play chrono or druid however are a different ball park. Newer chronos usually asked to go off-tank and watch how the tank does it, or given a mile of patience considering how difficult it is to find one, while newer druids are just asked to focus on healing while more seasoned players do the mechanic for them. > > That would be the point of an easy mode.. it's more about giving people a place they can practice said mechanics without having to interact with players who are there to beat the boss. > The reason many noobs join up with groups looking for exp only is because they don't have any other choice. > That's partly what leads to the negative experiences that drive them away. > The same happened with fractals and dungeons back in the day too. > > > > >You advocate for less damage and same mechanics but for 90% of raids, the challenge comes from being oneshot if you fail mechanics. It wouldnt be an 'easy mode' raid at all if you still wiped 100% if you failed gorse updraft, failed green on dhuum or failed mind crush on deimos. However take away these oneshot punishments and the raid becomes even easier than fractals. Damage is not what causes raids to be hard, its execution of mechanics. > > > Counter arguement for this point is fractals. T1 and 2 offer what you would consider easy mode, but once players get to t3, it becomes a clown fiesta as they find strategies they used before no longer work. This is why raid training mide should absolutely focus on mechanics and punish groups as if they were doing it on normal. > > In all honesty I never had this problem.. both when I moved up to t3 and when taking t3 noobs along. > Then again my fractal character is capable of carrying a group of noobs fairly well even in T3 so that's probably why. > The easy raid training mode would focus on mechanics as i've said multiple times the biggest difference would be that it offers no rewards. > Experienced raiders would have no reason to participate unless they were there to train others, and it would give newer players a place they could gain that much needed experience without the toxicity from people who are only there to get the kill and reward. > Your mistakes wouldn't cost anyone anything.. that's the point. > > > > An easy mode would not be that difficult or time consuming to add in. > > > > Citation needed > > Really depends on how they do it > But if it was done through a sort of CM mote system it could probably be as simple as creating a unique buff on players and a debuff on bosses while that easy mode mote was active. > They'd need only create an easy mode mote which could be as simple as recolouring the blue CM mote to Green, create a permabuff for players that disables their loot and gives whatever damage reduction the devs decided was fair and create a debuff for bosses that cuts their HP by whatever the devs again think was fair and then add it to each raid wing probably using the same buff and debuff for each boss. > Add to that a Raid training section in the LFG and it's pretty much good to go. > > > Mmo games or single player games? And does it use thesame spaghetti code anet uses? > > Single and I honestly couldn't tell you, I'm not familiar with Gw2's game engine but I was just making an example that changing number values like Hp isn't that complex. > I doubt knocking 20% HP off vale guardian would effect anything other than the Hp of vale guardian.. but if it did then this spaghetti code you speak of must be absurdly annoying to work with xD > > > You still need to balance easy mode to ensure that it is easy, but not to the point of open world boss easy, i.e. people have to pay attention and do mechanics. Otherwise we'll end up with a t3 fractal scenario which won't get any new player in, and will prob make people require more kp. Additionally, most people can't even agree on what an easy mode is/should be. > > Not so much actually, The HP decrease is more to help training groups with the time limit mechanic.. it would have the same effect more or less of adding a longer timer which would be less effective imo.. the main point of the easy mode would be to seperate the experienced players from the new players while making raids more appealing to those new players by removing the toxicity/elitism that is the main thing that keeps a lot of people away. > It benefits both experienced and noobs alike since noobs will no longer have to try and sneak into groups looking for exp members.. they'll have a specified place they can go where they can get that raid experience they need along side other players who are looking for the same thing. > > A player who's learned in the easy mode will be able to then join an experienced pug group with the required knowledge and experience obtained in the easy mode and still contribute enough to beat a boss even if he's not putting out the best DPS since everything would look and feel exactly the same to them, the only real difference is that they will know what they are doing before they join that group.. and that's exactly what the vast majority of experienced raiders are looking for when they put up an LFG in the first place. > > In the long run raids become less toxic and the overall population of experienced raid players increases.. that's what an easy mode could potentially bring to the game.. and that's a win win for all raiders imo. > Then start a squad say first timers all welcome or raid training wing 4 boss 2 lf opener for example. Easy mode aint needed when raid training groups do the same but reward magnetatie shards even for failiure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > Then start a squad say first timers all welcome or raid training wing 4 boss 2 lf opener for example. > Easy mode aint needed when raid training groups do the same but reward magnetatie shards even for failiure. Seems you've completely missed the point i'm trying to make or just don't care.. Each to their own I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I think people get turned off by the time investment sometimes too. I know I personally sank a butt load of time into some of these raids, and at the end of day, I only had a few things to show for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I think people get turned off by the time investment sometimes too. I know I personally sank a butt load of time into some of these raids, and at the end of day, I only had a few things to show for it. I agree that is is a very common reason for why people don't get into raiding, but I personally don't see it as a problem that needs to be solved. Basically every IRL group activity requires you to adjust your schedule to meet the needs of the group. Sports leagues, weekly trivia, gym training classes, arts and crafts classes, (insert 100000 other examples here), all have specific times that you meet. I don't really see how this is any different. The solution is to find a way to make that time work (or another time that works for the group), or accept that it isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Problems vary from person to person. A problem to one person means absolutely nothing to another. There are solutions that have been suggested even on the main forum thread regarding this particular area. Perhaps once we have a good chunk of Raids complete perhaps 10 or so, they could go back and make adjustments. Eventually the fractals team will be finished building new fractals and it could be a potential project for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 When you come back from a months long break back when all Shattered Observatory CM took was LNHB or 30 essences and now you get LFG's that don't only want LNHB but 100-150 essences as well. PuGs are ridiculous, which makes people go through the pain of finding a static (of which there aren't that many with open spots to begin with since this game has a minuscule raiding community compared to WoW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > When you come back from a months long break back when all Shattered Observatory CM took was LNHB or 30 essences and now you get LFG's that don't only want LNHB but 100-150 essences as well. > PuGs are ridiculous, which makes people go through the pain of finding a static (of which there aren't that many with open spots to begin with since this game has a minuscule raiding community compared to WoW). > > In reply to your post :) I make my own group for fractal, eg 100CM with whatever req matching my own or etc. Who cares what other ask for when you can make your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Talindra.4958" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > When you come back from a months long break back when all Shattered Observatory CM took was LNHB or 30 essences and now you get LFG's that don't only want LNHB but 100-150 essences as well. > > PuGs are ridiculous, which makes people go through the pain of finding a static (of which there aren't that many with open spots to begin with since this game has a minuscule raiding community compared to WoW). > > > > > In reply to your post :) > I make my own group for fractal, eg 100CM with whatever req matching my own or etc. Who cares what other ask for when you can make your own? Maybe his problem is that if he is setting up his own req with requirements that fit to his own status he'll get players that aren't able to carry him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Hey, if my 2 guilds could pug a Raid kill on my 5th try ever, I think they can be done as long as you're willing to learn the mechanics and get at least 80% of the builds right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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