zealex.9410 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > I personally would like for this continue. > > > Here's why: > > > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > > > Just as planned. > > > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. > > 5 man content was never well received, I recall the conversations Robert Hrouda had with many people on the forums, he was the original captain of the open world dungeons like AC, CM, CoE, etc. The launch of fractals was poorly received albeit, a large portion of the backlash of the introduction of fractals wasn't the content per say but rather the introduction to the stat increases of ascended items. > > However you are very correct in stating that they never get any support, I am still frustrated that I can't do condition damage to burrows in AC for example. > > We can argue that the reason for this is due to them budgeting resources based on reactionary data. Assuming that we follow identical trends with WoW, we can then also state that the fractal community is also very small as the dungeon community is also small in WoW(I remember when some of their content designers were talking about the reception of various pieces of content in BC and WotLK). > > Unless someone like Mike or Crystal Reid outright says "Hey guys, for those wondering what the metrics are for instance content, here they are", we can assume that nothing has changed over the course of the lifetime of GW2, meaning the community is still very small. > > I personally would like to be proven wrong, because I like low manned content to receive more support, largely due to the fact that I can actually see what's going on. > > EDIT: also for the record I never said the content was in itself bad. I had already stated what my angle is in a different thread as to why instance content is generally not well received or just has a small community. Here is the link: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676939#Comment_676939 > > What I have said there is the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address properly, and because of this, no competitive scene in sPvP or high PvE content will ever take off. Until what I have stated in that thread gets addressed properly, we will always struggle. Anet already knows this, which is why they made the new player experience attempt, but more and a better job has to be done. 5 man content in wow has recieved massive focus over the last 2 expansions with new system and even an esports scene being made around them which has the most viewership out of anything wow related blizzard promotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllegalChocolate.6938 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > I personally would like for this continue. > > > > Here's why: > > > > > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > > > > > Just as planned. > > > > > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > > > > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > > > > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. > > > > 5 man content was never well received, I recall the conversations Robert Hrouda had with many people on the forums, he was the original captain of the open world dungeons like AC, CM, CoE, etc. The launch of fractals was poorly received albeit, a large portion of the backlash of the introduction of fractals wasn't the content per say but rather the introduction to the stat increases of ascended items. > > > > However you are very correct in stating that they never get any support, I am still frustrated that I can't do condition damage to burrows in AC for example. > > > > We can argue that the reason for this is due to them budgeting resources based on reactionary data. Assuming that we follow identical trends with WoW, we can then also state that the fractal community is also very small as the dungeon community is also small in WoW(I remember when some of their content designers were talking about the reception of various pieces of content in BC and WotLK). > > > > Unless someone like Mike or Crystal Reid outright says "Hey guys, for those wondering what the metrics are for instance content, here they are", we can assume that nothing has changed over the course of the lifetime of GW2, meaning the community is still very small. > > > > I personally would like to be proven wrong, because I like low manned content to receive more support, largely due to the fact that I can actually see what's going on. > > > > EDIT: also for the record I never said the content was in itself bad. I had already stated what my angle is in a different thread as to why instance content is generally not well received or just has a small community. Here is the link: > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676939#Comment_676939 > > > > What I have said there is the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address properly, and because of this, no competitive scene in sPvP or high PvE content will ever take off. Until what I have stated in that thread gets addressed properly, we will always struggle. Anet already knows this, which is why they made the new player experience attempt, but more and a better job has to be done. > > 5 man content in wow has recieved massive focus over the last 2 expansions with new system and even an esports scene being made around them which has the most viewership out of anything wow related blizzard promotes. > > I can see WoW having a much healthier dungeon community in these days to be honest, biggest reason is that players are taught from the get go what the basis is, what core abilities are, and how to operate everything. Their class preview is I think one of the best out there currently. Assuming their current sub base is around 5 million, 10 percent of 5 million concurrent is still 500 000 or $7 500 000USD per month of subs(this is assuming that you would not have these players if no dungeons existed) which is more than enough resources to create a healthy competitive base, especially for an MMO. The question now is how big is the guild wars 2 player base and how much revenue in gem sales is generated per month from people that we assume will only spend money if their dungeon fix is satiated. Assuming the average gem sales per month per player is still the same which is 4 dollars per month and GW2 made around $5 900 000 ish per month last quarter, divde this by 4 dollars and we get the active average player base last quarter which is just under 1 475 000 active players, this is assuming that no copies of of guild wars 2 was sold last quarter and the average gem sales per month is still the same as last revealed which was around 4 dollars per player. BTW: these are rounded numbers. exact would be: Guild Wars 2 sales is for Q2 is 19.86 billion won, or 17 664 717 USD, we divide by 3 for average per month which is $5 888 239, we then divide by 4 dollars to get the player base which is 1 472 059 players assuming no one bought copies last quarter now if people did buy copies we can expect less, I suspect around 1 200 000 players as box copies taper off quickly after launch. Actually we don't even need to go that far, we can take $5 888 239 and divide that by 10, assuming only 10 percent of the player base only does dungeons specifically and on average they spend around 4 dollars a month on gems, this would give us $588 824USD of revenue per month to work with(depending on expenses, you would divide revenue by 2 or 3 to get the workable budget in order to maintain profits and have a surplus pool, I would not be surprised if the budget for dungeon content is $200 000 per month for everything included in designing dungeons, VAs, original score, original assets, etc. (I would suspect this is still 1/10th of WoW's budget) to create dungeon content, to be able to put out as much dungeon content as WoW is IMHO unreasonable especially based on the idea that the blizzard dungeon team could potentially have 10 times the funding. Even then, Battle for Azeroth has had poor reception for its end game, meaning they could barely handle getting a good raid out and good end game content, don't believe me? Go ask Method, hell even watch BellularGaming who also has a good analysis. So if Mythright Gambit is launched flawlessly, works amazingly well, and is generally a well received raid, you would literally beat WoW in raid quality this expansion with not even a quarter of the budget albeit, that bar wasn't high to begin with. Here is the thing though, the reason as to why our average sales is so high is because of whales(For me, last month I clocked in at just under 70$ last month so I'm also a culprit of whaling it up), what if literally no more than maybe 10 percent of that 10 percent of players actually buys gems every month? hell that average per month from dungeon content would probably be no more than 40 cents per person compared to catering to the big ticket audience? The answers now reside in the internal metrics, who is buying copies, who is buying gems, and what content do we see them doing most often, these answers only Anet will know, but we can see the outcome quite clearly. You see where I'm going with this. If the dungeon community wants the WoW budget for their dungeon content (assuming its based off of 7 500 000USD revenue earned per month) and the player base of the dungeon community is maybe 120 000 at best, in a perfect setting, each dungeoneer would have to spend $62.50 USD per month, in order to justify a large resource injection into the dungeon content on par with WoW to keep you guys happy. In English, either you guys will need to pony up and buy tons of gems or you need to start attracting these money whales to your content to skew the metric towards your desired direction, good luck. I just watched Lazy Peon's Blade and Soul Warden class overview that was promoted by NCSoft themselves. The moment he went in, he was trained on dps combos and how to best operate the skill buttons. What happens next? when he's doing stuff like killing mobs, he's doing it effectively, using intended rotation and doing numbers, now compare this to the footage of his revenant hammer in raids? the contrast is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > > I personally would like for this continue. > > > > > Here's why: > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > > > > > > > Just as planned. > > > > > > > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > > > > > > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > > > > > > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. > > > > > > 5 man content was never well received, I recall the conversations Robert Hrouda had with many people on the forums, he was the original captain of the open world dungeons like AC, CM, CoE, etc. The launch of fractals was poorly received albeit, a large portion of the backlash of the introduction of fractals wasn't the content per say but rather the introduction to the stat increases of ascended items. > > > > > > However you are very correct in stating that they never get any support, I am still frustrated that I can't do condition damage to burrows in AC for example. > > > > > > We can argue that the reason for this is due to them budgeting resources based on reactionary data. Assuming that we follow identical trends with WoW, we can then also state that the fractal community is also very small as the dungeon community is also small in WoW(I remember when some of their content designers were talking about the reception of various pieces of content in BC and WotLK). > > > > > > Unless someone like Mike or Crystal Reid outright says "Hey guys, for those wondering what the metrics are for instance content, here they are", we can assume that nothing has changed over the course of the lifetime of GW2, meaning the community is still very small. > > > > > > I personally would like to be proven wrong, because I like low manned content to receive more support, largely due to the fact that I can actually see what's going on. > > > > > > EDIT: also for the record I never said the content was in itself bad. I had already stated what my angle is in a different thread as to why instance content is generally not well received or just has a small community. Here is the link: > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676939#Comment_676939 > > > > > > What I have said there is the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address properly, and because of this, no competitive scene in sPvP or high PvE content will ever take off. Until what I have stated in that thread gets addressed properly, we will always struggle. Anet already knows this, which is why they made the new player experience attempt, but more and a better job has to be done. > > > > 5 man content in wow has recieved massive focus over the last 2 expansions with new system and even an esports scene being made around them which has the most viewership out of anything wow related blizzard promotes. > > > > > > I can see WoW having a much healthier dungeon community in these days to be honest, biggest reason is that players are taught from the get go what the basis is, what core abilities are, and how to operate everything. Their class preview is I think one of the best out there currently. Assuming their current sub base is around 5 million, 10 percent of 5 million concurrent is still 500 000 or $7 500 000USD per month of subs(this is assuming that you would not have these players if no dungeons existed) which is more than enough resources to create a healthy competitive base, especially for an MMO. The question now is how big is the guild wars 2 player base and how much revenue in gem sales is generated per month from people that we assume will only spend money if their dungeon fix is satiated. > > Assuming the average gem sales per month per player is still the same which is 4 dollars per month and GW2 made around $5 900 000 ish per month last quarter, divde this by 4 dollars and we get the active average player base last quarter which is just under 1 475 000 active players, this is assuming that no copies of of guild wars 2 was sold last quarter and the average gem sales per month is still the same as last revealed which was around 4 dollars per player. > > BTW: these are rounded numbers. exact would be: > > Guild Wars 2 sales is for Q2 is 19.86 billion won, or 17 664 717 USD, we divide by 3 for average per month which is $5 888 239, we then divide by 4 dollars to get the player base which is 1 472 059 players assuming no one bought copies last quarter now if people did buy copies we can expect less, I suspect around 1 200 000 players as box copies taper off quickly after launch. Actually we don't even need to go that far, we can take $5 888 239 and divide that by 10, assuming only 10 percent of the player base only does dungeons specifically and on average they spend around 4 dollars a month on gems, this would give us $588 824USD of revenue per month to work with(depending on expenses, you would divide revenue by 2 or 3 to get the workable budget in order to maintain profits and have a surplus pool, I would not be surprised if the budget for dungeon content is $200 000 per month for everything included in designing dungeons, VAs, original score, original assets, etc. (I would suspect this is still 1/10th of WoW's budget) to create dungeon content, to be able to put out as much dungeon content as WoW is IMHO unreasonable especially based on the idea that the blizzard dungeon team could potentially have 10 times the funding. Even then, Battle for Azeroth has had poor reception for its end game, meaning they could barely handle getting a good raid out and good end game content, don't believe me? Go ask Method, hell even watch BellularGaming who also has a good analysis. So if Mythright Gambit is launched flawlessly, works amazingly well, and is generally a well received raid, you would literally beat WoW in raid quality this expansion with not even a quarter of the budget albeit, that bar wasn't high to begin with. > > Here is the thing though, the reason as to why our average sales is so high is because of whales(For me, last month I clocked in at just under 70$ last month so I'm also a culprit of whaling it up), what if literally no more than maybe 10 percent of that 10 percent of players actually buys gems every month? hell that average per month from dungeon content would probably be no more than 40 cents per person compared to catering to the big ticket audience? The answers now reside in the internal metrics, who is buying copies, who is buying gems, and what content do we see them doing most often, these answers only Anet will know, but we can see the outcome quite clearly. > > You see where I'm going with this. If the dungeon community wants the WoW budget for their dungeon content (assuming its based off of 7 500 000USD revenue earned per month) and the player base of the dungeon community is maybe 120 000 at best, in a perfect setting, each dungeoneer would have to spend $62.50 USD per month, in order to justify a large resource injection into the dungeon content on par with WoW to keep you guys happy. In English, either you guys will need to pony up and buy tons of gems or you need to start attracting these money whales to your content to skew the metric towards your desired direction, good luck. > > I just watched Lazy Peon's Blade and Soul Warden class overview that was promoted by NCSoft themselves. The moment he went in, he was trained on dps combos and how to best operate the skill buttons. What happens next? when he's doing stuff like killing mobs, he's doing it effectively, using intended rotation and doing numbers, now compare this to the footage of his revenant hammer in raids? the contrast is black and white. > well there is one glaring problem, anet dont know what the players buying gems want its not like we can earmark em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Blizzard doesnt really do a good work teaching ppl about their class. If that was the case the game would see massige improvements and focus in every bit of content, esp pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProtoGunner.4953 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 I remember when I was new in WoW raiding, I just asked if I can come with them - I didn't have any experience, and we did do all the bosses later. They weren't asking for like 1000 items of whatever and killproof. And it worked still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 This was originally a discussion in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54756/a-note-about-future-raid-rewards "this thread"). The discussion fits way better into this thread though, so I'll be answering in here. > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > > > > Meaningless complaints. Im sure this is for the new legendary trinket so we can make multiples of it. You dont have to exchange it if you dont want to. But dont expect them to allow this exchange months down the line either. This is not kp either so dont expect someone with a stack to be a spectacular. If your going to kick someone kick them for poor performance not because they dont have enough of this or that. > > > > > > > > You mean like 9k ap or kick shouldent happen either but it did. > > > > Or the 50, 100, etc kill profs for cm fractals > > > > The community will always find some way to narrow down the groups some way. > > > > > > > > And about not allowing this exchange months down the line, have you read the anet posts in this very thread? > > > > You can do a event wing 5 2 weeks from now and still get to exchange 168 li to new resource whenever you get the li after that. > > > > > > Most of these issues get fixed by doing this stuff with a guild... > > > > That's always a bad argument in a game as unsocial as GW2. It's certainly undeniable that GW2's instanced PvE suffers heavily from several design-decisions, which almost leads to accessiblity converging towards zero. It's almost impossible by now to reasonably get into content like Fractal CMs or Dhuum. The risk that W6 will suffer from the same accessiblity-problems is high, so I can understand people's frustration pretty well. > > Well find 4 (fractal cm) or 9 (raids) others and start working yourself up like everyone else did at the start then? The answer is quite silly if you consider the game design. Finding people gets constantly harder since both Fractals - especially CMs - and Raids are intentionally designed as niche-content. People simply don't have to do them since the game has no gear-progression-system. Plus, the "main game content" features no reasonable difficulty progression which leaves people unprepared for instanced PvE which in turn leads to ridiculous entry-requirements in the first place (which is pretty much unique in the MMORPG-world - at least in the intensity you have in GW2). This all makes decent players - human capital - exponentially more valuable than in any other MMORPG. You also have to consider than the game is rather unsocial since it's very much a spiritual successor of GW1 - meaning a very single-player-focused experience with optional multiplayer-aspects rather than a full-fledged MMORPG. Then you have the problem that the game has no community-building game-design-aspects which got even worse since the introduction of the megaserver-architecture. People who played during the server-bound architecture have had it much easier to get into actual communities due to a limited player-pool per server. Considering these facts and the LI/KP-system, "like everyone else" is pretty much not true since it's getting comparatively harder to get into Fractal CMs and Raids - especially if you consider that old content doesn't necessarily get easier. Longtime-players simply have an undeniable advantage that new players can't catch up with. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > > > > Meaningless complaints. Im sure this is for the new legendary trinket so we can make multiples of it. You dont have to exchange it if you dont want to. But dont expect them to allow this exchange months down the line either. This is not kp either so dont expect someone with a stack to be a spectacular. If your going to kick someone kick them for poor performance not because they dont have enough of this or that. > > > > > > > > You mean like 9k ap or kick shouldent happen either but it did. > > > > Or the 50, 100, etc kill profs for cm fractals > > > > The community will always find some way to narrow down the groups some way. > > > > > > > > And about not allowing this exchange months down the line, have you read the anet posts in this very thread? > > > > You can do a event wing 5 2 weeks from now and still get to exchange 168 li to new resource whenever you get the li after that. > > > > > > Most of these issues get fixed by doing this stuff with a guild... > > > > That's always a bad argument in a game as unsocial as GW2. It's certainly undeniable that GW2's instanced PvE suffers heavily from several design-decisions, which almost leads to accessiblity converging towards zero. It's almost impossible by now to reasonably get into content like Fractal CMs or Dhuum. The risk that W6 will suffer from the same accessiblity-problems is high, so I can understand people's frustration pretty well. > > You saying GW2 is unsocial does not make it so. While that is true, GW2 is still one of the most unsocial MMORPGs on the market due to several design-decisions. The whole main-game-aspects (open world and story) are basically a dumbed down GW1-experience, meaning single player with optional multiplayer-aspects. GW2 is devoid of any conflict. While it isn't necessarily bad to have shared participation to prevent killstealing and shared nodes, you also have no incentives for teaming up which is ridiculous from a game-design-viewpoint. Why do you receive boons and healing from people who aren't in you party/squad? Why isn't there any group participation? And that's just one aspects that makes GW2 a rather unsocial game. > > GW2 is one of the friendliest "pick up and never interact with anyone" games on the market for casual open world (and much of its instanced content), yes. There is a ton of guilds though (as it should be) and I guarantee you, many of those guilds are filled with a bunch of very friendly players of all shapes and sizes. The keyword here is visibility. The game has no world-chat like other MMORPGs do, meaning you won't see guild-ads in the chat reliably. The LFG-tool is extremely rudimentary and we don't have a guild-browser. This leads to guilds being far from visible to the audience. While there may be friendly guilds who may even recruit people, it's very much useless if you aren't able to be aware of their existence. You also have the problem that "guild-identity" is rather low on average due to being able to be member of five guilds per account. > > **The fact that the most difficult pve content in this game CAN be puged (a hilarious impossible notion in most other MMOs) is a testament how far Arenanet are willing to simplify content so it is actually doable.** Go pug a Mythic raid in WoW without out- gearing it severely (or even out leveling it). WoW is a really bad example. WoW simply isn't the non plus ultra in the MMORPG-genre anymore. It's still the behemoth, true, but that is mostly because of how much weight the name carries and - of course - because of emotional investment. WoW has gotten considerably worse during the last few years, especially due to stuff like skill-pruning which dumbed the game down to make it more casual-friendly. This led to the same problems GW2 suffers heavily from: People can't play their classes properly and thus aren't able to carry their weight in content in which performance does matter. The notion that "the most difficult" PvE-content can be cleared with PUGs is certainly not "hilarious[ly] impossible". I actually did that in several MMORPGs. The key to this is that these games actually teach people how to carry their weight. A very good example has already been brought up: Blade & Soul is doing an outstanding job teaching its players basic gameplay, these players also have to be able to clear certain content by themselves in order to progress. I also have to disagree with your "simplifying"-argument. Conceptually, GW2 isn't really made for sophisticated instanced PvE to begin with. The combat-system is severely limited. Not only is the combat-system a heavily crippled hybrid of action combat and tab targetting (like having no single-target-support-capabilities and only one-way-tab-targetting), you also have a very limited skill- and weapon-pool and very limited ways to modify these skills. Furthermore, the heavy focus on boons in instanced PvE and the application of boons also hurts the game. You can't really work well with melee- and ranged-mechanics. Due to the very limited combat-system, the game feels rather gimmicky since instanced PvE often heavily relies on certain gimmicks like special action skills or certain weapon- or utility-skills (in which case one class mostly heavily outshines other classes and that class mostly is either Chronomancer or Druid). You also have the problem that you have everything in overabundance like boons, damage and CC. There aren't real teamplay-aspects like in other MMORPGs where you actually have to communicate in real-time per TS or Discord. This all leads to very restricted gameplay. Instead of healthy LFGs like "[instanced group-content of your choice] - 1 Tank, 1 Heal, 3 DPS" (while being asked if you have the basic stats needed to clear the content if the game does not feature a gearscore-system) you have "[instanced group-content of your choice] - 250 LI/KP - 1 Chrono, 1 Druid, 1 BS, 2 DPS [pref. even certain classes/builds]" in GW2. In the world of MMORPGs, GW2 is actually a very special special snowflake and I dare say that I'm able to make that judgement, playing several MMORPGs for 15 years by now. Of course that doesn't mean that the content itself isn't fun - it actually is -, it's just that the game isn't well designed. > > Working as intended. The problem is that - while being a good game with several solid game-aspects - GW2 is a rather weak MMORPG. It may is working as intended by ArenaNet, but from a MMORPG-viewpoint, GW2 is still not a true full-fledged MMORPG. It's still too single-player-focused. Lastly, I'd like to thank @"IllegalChocolate.6938" for the very accurate and valuable input. Teaching people how to play their class properly and thus setting a minimum skill-level for the community is vital for every MMORPG. As weird as it may sound to some people, it also makes the game more social since it promotes teamplay. People either don't ask for KPs in other MMORPGs or it's a very rare exception. GW2 is very unique in the MMORPG-world in that regard. In most MMORPGs, I can simply join a group even for hard PvE-content as long as I meet the gear-requirements. In most MMORPGs, it's standard to use TS or Discord for instanced PvE. People can explain mechanics in advance or on the fly. There maybe are some progression-groups, true, but the huge fixation on "training" Raids or Fractal CMs is also very unique to GW2. The problems with these trainings in GW2 though is the lack of repetition. You don't get used to content if you don't repeat it constantly. With that, we also get to the problem of the asinine raid-reward-structures. After your weekly kill, raids are basically useless and prevent the majority of the raiding population to raid with other people. Especially harmful is the LI/KP-system since it heavily segregates the raiding-community (which is already part of a ridiculously segregated community anyway - you could even argue that there's no coherent community in GW2 at all). That's not healthy for a MMORPG though. MMORPGs also depend on a healthy mix of player-types. People should push each other to get better in MMORPGs and that's what most MMORPGs actually do. Having almost your entire squad consist of newbies is atypical for MMORPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllegalChocolate.6938 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > > > I personally would like for this continue. > > > > > > Here's why: > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as planned. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > > > > > > > > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > > > > > > > > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. > > > > > > > > 5 man content was never well received, I recall the conversations Robert Hrouda had with many people on the forums, he was the original captain of the open world dungeons like AC, CM, CoE, etc. The launch of fractals was poorly received albeit, a large portion of the backlash of the introduction of fractals wasn't the content per say but rather the introduction to the stat increases of ascended items. > > > > > > > > However you are very correct in stating that they never get any support, I am still frustrated that I can't do condition damage to burrows in AC for example. > > > > > > > > We can argue that the reason for this is due to them budgeting resources based on reactionary data. Assuming that we follow identical trends with WoW, we can then also state that the fractal community is also very small as the dungeon community is also small in WoW(I remember when some of their content designers were talking about the reception of various pieces of content in BC and WotLK). > > > > > > > > Unless someone like Mike or Crystal Reid outright says "Hey guys, for those wondering what the metrics are for instance content, here they are", we can assume that nothing has changed over the course of the lifetime of GW2, meaning the community is still very small. > > > > > > > > I personally would like to be proven wrong, because I like low manned content to receive more support, largely due to the fact that I can actually see what's going on. > > > > > > > > EDIT: also for the record I never said the content was in itself bad. I had already stated what my angle is in a different thread as to why instance content is generally not well received or just has a small community. Here is the link: > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676939#Comment_676939 > > > > > > > > What I have said there is the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address properly, and because of this, no competitive scene in sPvP or high PvE content will ever take off. Until what I have stated in that thread gets addressed properly, we will always struggle. Anet already knows this, which is why they made the new player experience attempt, but more and a better job has to be done. > > > > > > 5 man content in wow has recieved massive focus over the last 2 expansions with new system and even an esports scene being made around them which has the most viewership out of anything wow related blizzard promotes. > > > > > > > > > > I can see WoW having a much healthier dungeon community in these days to be honest, biggest reason is that players are taught from the get go what the basis is, what core abilities are, and how to operate everything. Their class preview is I think one of the best out there currently. Assuming their current sub base is around 5 million, 10 percent of 5 million concurrent is still 500 000 or $7 500 000USD per month of subs(this is assuming that you would not have these players if no dungeons existed) which is more than enough resources to create a healthy competitive base, especially for an MMO. The question now is how big is the guild wars 2 player base and how much revenue in gem sales is generated per month from people that we assume will only spend money if their dungeon fix is satiated. > > > > Assuming the average gem sales per month per player is still the same which is 4 dollars per month and GW2 made around $5 900 000 ish per month last quarter, divde this by 4 dollars and we get the active average player base last quarter which is just under 1 475 000 active players, this is assuming that no copies of of guild wars 2 was sold last quarter and the average gem sales per month is still the same as last revealed which was around 4 dollars per player. > > > > BTW: these are rounded numbers. exact would be: > > > > Guild Wars 2 sales is for Q2 is 19.86 billion won, or 17 664 717 USD, we divide by 3 for average per month which is $5 888 239, we then divide by 4 dollars to get the player base which is 1 472 059 players assuming no one bought copies last quarter now if people did buy copies we can expect less, I suspect around 1 200 000 players as box copies taper off quickly after launch. Actually we don't even need to go that far, we can take $5 888 239 and divide that by 10, assuming only 10 percent of the player base only does dungeons specifically and on average they spend around 4 dollars a month on gems, this would give us $588 824USD of revenue per month to work with(depending on expenses, you would divide revenue by 2 or 3 to get the workable budget in order to maintain profits and have a surplus pool, I would not be surprised if the budget for dungeon content is $200 000 per month for everything included in designing dungeons, VAs, original score, original assets, etc. (I would suspect this is still 1/10th of WoW's budget) to create dungeon content, to be able to put out as much dungeon content as WoW is IMHO unreasonable especially based on the idea that the blizzard dungeon team could potentially have 10 times the funding. Even then, Battle for Azeroth has had poor reception for its end game, meaning they could barely handle getting a good raid out and good end game content, don't believe me? Go ask Method, hell even watch BellularGaming who also has a good analysis. So if Mythright Gambit is launched flawlessly, works amazingly well, and is generally a well received raid, you would literally beat WoW in raid quality this expansion with not even a quarter of the budget albeit, that bar wasn't high to begin with. > > > > Here is the thing though, the reason as to why our average sales is so high is because of whales(For me, last month I clocked in at just under 70$ last month so I'm also a culprit of whaling it up), what if literally no more than maybe 10 percent of that 10 percent of players actually buys gems every month? hell that average per month from dungeon content would probably be no more than 40 cents per person compared to catering to the big ticket audience? The answers now reside in the internal metrics, who is buying copies, who is buying gems, and what content do we see them doing most often, these answers only Anet will know, but we can see the outcome quite clearly. > > > > You see where I'm going with this. If the dungeon community wants the WoW budget for their dungeon content (assuming its based off of 7 500 000USD revenue earned per month) and the player base of the dungeon community is maybe 120 000 at best, in a perfect setting, each dungeoneer would have to spend $62.50 USD per month, in order to justify a large resource injection into the dungeon content on par with WoW to keep you guys happy. In English, either you guys will need to pony up and buy tons of gems or you need to start attracting these money whales to your content to skew the metric towards your desired direction, good luck. > > > > I just watched Lazy Peon's Blade and Soul Warden class overview that was promoted by NCSoft themselves. The moment he went in, he was trained on dps combos and how to best operate the skill buttons. What happens next? when he's doing stuff like killing mobs, he's doing it effectively, using intended rotation and doing numbers, now compare this to the footage of his revenant hammer in raids? the contrast is black and white. > > > > well there is one glaring problem, anet dont know what the players buying gems want its not like we can earmark em They actually can, which explains the reason as to why content was developed this way. Gem purchases are tied to an account They can track the behavior of an account which is how they observe speed hackers etc in WvW which is the method they use to confirm if someone is speed hacking in WvW for example. As far as I understand, they can pull up a "latest" history for what character you used, what profession you've been using, and where you are throughout atleast a month, they can see what trait points you have(see a previous comment), and how often you login, etc. They can cross reference this with forum posts, etc. Data may be wiped quarterly for example to save hard drive space, but the driving home point is that they have metrics that are very detailed. Assuming their biggest ticket customers do not raid but instead sit in town and perhaps partake in world events, we can conclude this is why content was made the way it was. Little does anyone realize, that you've been earmarked since you made the account, just like facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaogin.2679 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Not really sure why people have such an issue getting into raids. I just started myself and found it pretty easy, and that was on a Power Reaper. (though I do play Power Holosmith now due to personal preference). I joined the Raider's Inn discord and do training runs with them when they pop up. When no training run is available and I want to raid, I start a training run myself on the lfg. Since then I have succeeded in getting quite a few raid boss kills and have started working on the legendary armor collections. It really isn't as difficult as people here make it out to be, and I suspect many of the people here are actually just preferring to be carried through these raids in experienced groups instead of taking the time to learn the raids. I mean, if you want to get into raids and learn the content, the resources are already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The biggest problem with grinding through raids with other newbies is that you don't learn how to do raids the way everyone else wants you to. You either learn obtuse tricks tailored for that specific team, or you don't learn anything at all and let sheer persistence carry you through the runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segman.3560 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Shaogin.2679" said: > Not really sure why people have such an issue getting into raids. Or people simply don't want to get into raids or other content that requires more than basic organisation. Those who are vocal about joining raid issues are mostly pugs and are definitely a minority. People of gw2 in general don't care about organised group content that can't be leeched. And it is proved by numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > > > > I personally would like for this continue. > > > > > > > Here's why: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as planned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > > > > > > > > > > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > > > > > > > > > > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. > > > > > > > > > > 5 man content was never well received, I recall the conversations Robert Hrouda had with many people on the forums, he was the original captain of the open world dungeons like AC, CM, CoE, etc. The launch of fractals was poorly received albeit, a large portion of the backlash of the introduction of fractals wasn't the content per say but rather the introduction to the stat increases of ascended items. > > > > > > > > > > However you are very correct in stating that they never get any support, I am still frustrated that I can't do condition damage to burrows in AC for example. > > > > > > > > > > We can argue that the reason for this is due to them budgeting resources based on reactionary data. Assuming that we follow identical trends with WoW, we can then also state that the fractal community is also very small as the dungeon community is also small in WoW(I remember when some of their content designers were talking about the reception of various pieces of content in BC and WotLK). > > > > > > > > > > Unless someone like Mike or Crystal Reid outright says "Hey guys, for those wondering what the metrics are for instance content, here they are", we can assume that nothing has changed over the course of the lifetime of GW2, meaning the community is still very small. > > > > > > > > > > I personally would like to be proven wrong, because I like low manned content to receive more support, largely due to the fact that I can actually see what's going on. > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: also for the record I never said the content was in itself bad. I had already stated what my angle is in a different thread as to why instance content is generally not well received or just has a small community. Here is the link: > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/676939#Comment_676939 > > > > > > > > > > What I have said there is the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address properly, and because of this, no competitive scene in sPvP or high PvE content will ever take off. Until what I have stated in that thread gets addressed properly, we will always struggle. Anet already knows this, which is why they made the new player experience attempt, but more and a better job has to be done. > > > > > > > > 5 man content in wow has recieved massive focus over the last 2 expansions with new system and even an esports scene being made around them which has the most viewership out of anything wow related blizzard promotes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see WoW having a much healthier dungeon community in these days to be honest, biggest reason is that players are taught from the get go what the basis is, what core abilities are, and how to operate everything. Their class preview is I think one of the best out there currently. Assuming their current sub base is around 5 million, 10 percent of 5 million concurrent is still 500 000 or $7 500 000USD per month of subs(this is assuming that you would not have these players if no dungeons existed) which is more than enough resources to create a healthy competitive base, especially for an MMO. The question now is how big is the guild wars 2 player base and how much revenue in gem sales is generated per month from people that we assume will only spend money if their dungeon fix is satiated. > > > > > > Assuming the average gem sales per month per player is still the same which is 4 dollars per month and GW2 made around $5 900 000 ish per month last quarter, divde this by 4 dollars and we get the active average player base last quarter which is just under 1 475 000 active players, this is assuming that no copies of of guild wars 2 was sold last quarter and the average gem sales per month is still the same as last revealed which was around 4 dollars per player. > > > > > > BTW: these are rounded numbers. exact would be: > > > > > > Guild Wars 2 sales is for Q2 is 19.86 billion won, or 17 664 717 USD, we divide by 3 for average per month which is $5 888 239, we then divide by 4 dollars to get the player base which is 1 472 059 players assuming no one bought copies last quarter now if people did buy copies we can expect less, I suspect around 1 200 000 players as box copies taper off quickly after launch. Actually we don't even need to go that far, we can take $5 888 239 and divide that by 10, assuming only 10 percent of the player base only does dungeons specifically and on average they spend around 4 dollars a month on gems, this would give us $588 824USD of revenue per month to work with(depending on expenses, you would divide revenue by 2 or 3 to get the workable budget in order to maintain profits and have a surplus pool, I would not be surprised if the budget for dungeon content is $200 000 per month for everything included in designing dungeons, VAs, original score, original assets, etc. (I would suspect this is still 1/10th of WoW's budget) to create dungeon content, to be able to put out as much dungeon content as WoW is IMHO unreasonable especially based on the idea that the blizzard dungeon team could potentially have 10 times the funding. Even then, Battle for Azeroth has had poor reception for its end game, meaning they could barely handle getting a good raid out and good end game content, don't believe me? Go ask Method, hell even watch BellularGaming who also has a good analysis. So if Mythright Gambit is launched flawlessly, works amazingly well, and is generally a well received raid, you would literally beat WoW in raid quality this expansion with not even a quarter of the budget albeit, that bar wasn't high to begin with. > > > > > > Here is the thing though, the reason as to why our average sales is so high is because of whales(For me, last month I clocked in at just under 70$ last month so I'm also a culprit of whaling it up), what if literally no more than maybe 10 percent of that 10 percent of players actually buys gems every month? hell that average per month from dungeon content would probably be no more than 40 cents per person compared to catering to the big ticket audience? The answers now reside in the internal metrics, who is buying copies, who is buying gems, and what content do we see them doing most often, these answers only Anet will know, but we can see the outcome quite clearly. > > > > > > You see where I'm going with this. If the dungeon community wants the WoW budget for their dungeon content (assuming its based off of 7 500 000USD revenue earned per month) and the player base of the dungeon community is maybe 120 000 at best, in a perfect setting, each dungeoneer would have to spend $62.50 USD per month, in order to justify a large resource injection into the dungeon content on par with WoW to keep you guys happy. In English, either you guys will need to pony up and buy tons of gems or you need to start attracting these money whales to your content to skew the metric towards your desired direction, good luck. > > > > > > I just watched Lazy Peon's Blade and Soul Warden class overview that was promoted by NCSoft themselves. The moment he went in, he was trained on dps combos and how to best operate the skill buttons. What happens next? when he's doing stuff like killing mobs, he's doing it effectively, using intended rotation and doing numbers, now compare this to the footage of his revenant hammer in raids? the contrast is black and white. > > > > > > > well there is one glaring problem, anet dont know what the players buying gems want its not like we can earmark em > > They actually can, which explains the reason as to why content was developed this way. > > Gem purchases are tied to an account > They can track the behavior of an account which is how they observe speed hackers etc in WvW which is the method they use to confirm if someone is speed hacking in WvW for example. > > As far as I understand, they can pull up a "latest" history for what character you used, what profession you've been using, and where you are throughout atleast a month, they can see what trait points you have(see a previous comment), and how often you login, etc. > > They can cross reference this with forum posts, etc. Data may be wiped quarterly for example to save hard drive space, but the driving home point is that they have metrics that are very detailed. > > Assuming their biggest ticket customers do not raid but instead sit in town and perhaps partake in world events, we can conclude this is why content was made the way it was. > > Little does anyone realize, that you've been earmarked since you made the account, just like facebook. I have only done dungeons now and again since the fractal rewamp, I like em but anet wont see that since I dont do them everyday anymore. What I mean with earmarked is that I could say I buy these gems specificaly becouse I want this kind of content, like I taged them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"segman.3560" said: > > @"Shaogin.2679" said: > > Not really sure why people have such an issue getting into raids. > > Or people simply don't want to get into raids or other content that requires more than basic organisation. Those who are vocal about joining raid issues are mostly pugs and are definitely a minority. People of gw2 in general don't care about organised group content that can't be leeched. And it is proved by numbers. > There's actually multiple reasons why people would have issues. 1. A lot of games have raids that are essentially a gear check. This attitude will carry over into GW2, where people feel entitled to raid just because they have the gear for it. It's not like the rest of the game discourages this mindset. 2. There's always the community problem. Elitism and toxicity go hand in hand, and a lot of potential raiders don't want to deal with the kind of people who raid. AKA the Groucho Marx paradox. 3. A lot of people just want to bring their personal builds, and don't want to deal with the overly rigid structure and demand of most raids. The raids are undertuned for a reason, but the community doesn't always respect that. Some people legitimately only have a necromancer they can bring. 4. Similar to the above, hardware issues pose a problem. The last few times I tried to use discord my computer freaked out. 5. Convenience is an issue. There's a lot of players with irregular schedules who can't make the training runs or the reset runs or static groups. 6. A lot of players prefer the baby bird method, where they are essentially taught by 9 other experienced players instead of grouping up with other newbs for endless hours of aimless death. But, doing this requires knowing the right people, which they won't always. 7. Most groups have insanely high demands, requiring players to grind these training runs for weeks just to get the minimum LI. This will discourage people from bothering to try from the start. There's probably more that I haven't thought of. We have a community that unironically demands 100 unstable cosmic essence for CM100. The notion that people can't get into raids just because they're all leechers or aren't trying is rather silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > 6. A lot of players prefer the baby bird method, where they are essentially taught by 9 other experienced players instead of grouping up with other newbs for endless hours of aimless death. But, doing this requires knowing the right people, which they won't always. Then they need to find those 9 friends that are willing to take them. If they don't know the right people, then they can't use this method, or do you really expect 9 other random experienced people to take a total stranger, that is also a newb, for a ride "just because"? When does respecting their time and effort become important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaogin.2679 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Well as for those that want to bring certain builds or classes or have restrictive schedules or want to avoid elitists, again none of that is really an issue. Like I said before, I was raiding on a Power Necro whenever I felt like it, even during off hours. I simply throw up a message in lfg like "Wing 1 Training Run". After a short wait I'd normally have a group. I even have people that come in like "I'm a Scourge Healer is that OK?" and I'm like hell yeah let's go! I put up a discord channel for those that want to use it, and I type out instructions for the fight that I pulled directly from the Wiki. It is more than possible to get into raiding if you really want to. There are plenty of new raiders that will jump on a training run in a heartbeat when they see it advertised, and often I even get experienced raiders that are just bored and want to help out. Again, the resources are there, it's just a matter of people putting in the effort mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantaria.8726 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Shaogin.2679" said: > Well as for those that want to bring certain builds or classes or have restrictive schedules or want to avoid elitists, again none of that is really an issue. Like I said before, I was raiding on a Power Necro whenever I felt like it, even during off hours. I simply throw up a message in lfg like "Wing 1 Training Run". After a short wait I'd normally have a group. I even have people that come in like "I'm a Scourge Healer is that OK?" and I'm like hell yeah let's go! I put up a discord channel for those that want to use it, and I type out instructions for the fight that I pulled directly from the Wiki. > > It is more than possible to get into raiding if you really want to. There are plenty of new raiders that will jump on a training run in a heartbeat when they see it advertised, and often I even get experienced raiders that are just bored and want to help out. > > Again, the resources are there, it's just a matter of people putting in the effort mostly. Thats what we are trying to tell them for a long time now, but they dont really listen to arguments and rather want things to be like they believe they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polvere.2805 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > I remember when I was new in WoW raiding, I just asked if I can come with them - I didn't have any experience, and we did do all the bosses later. They weren't asking for like 1000 items of whatever and killproof. And it worked still. You got carried my friend. And it is doable in gw2. Prob just harder to find people willing to carry you. FIND A GUILD AND YOU WON'T HAVE THESE PROBLEMS AGAIN I will keep posting this message to every single person that rants about Kp's and LI. As a raid commander It's just obvious that if i don't know you and if you want to join my group then you have to stand by my rules. If i feel like carrying you fine, if not show proof that you are able to do what i ask if i am not training. If you are my guildmate or a person that i know i just don't care about your experience as i can explain things to you and i am sure that i will play again with you so i am basically investing my time in order to have one more person to have fun with. I don't waste my time with people that i don't know and i will probably never meet again in such a big game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonami.2987 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > I personally would like for this continue. > Here's why: > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > Just as planned. > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? Raiders against difficulty modes are unable to open their eyes and see the truth in from of them. I like raids, but they're doomed to die as a game mode if they don't get easy/normal/hard mode soon. > @"Amineo.8951" said: > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > The default behavior of the general gamer is to learn as you go, this is truth in literally any genre. I've played games all my life and it was generally shunned to get the nintendo power guide when you purchase the next Mario or Zelda game for example. You will see this behavior largely due to the fact that Anet had marketed to a general gamer or populace more so someone that had played previous MMOs before and also explains why trains are much more populated than an instance raid. > > > > The clientele majority simply wants a plug and play approach to content, which is why overworld content is generally favored in any MMO, including WoW where the raid community is also a vast minority. > > > > The moment guides, or going to an external website for a meta build, or doing a separate training run is thrown into the mix, it begins to interfere with the plug and play approach therefore, we can conclude that these are not viable solutions. > > > > I should also mention that many online games have thrived with no raiding scene. The best example currently is Warframe where raids(they were called trials) were actually deleted from the game but that didn't stop the game from being one of the most played games in North America. It begs the question if raids are even worth the time for a PvE centric MMO when a game like Warframe is literal proof that raids aren't even needed to be an online PvE game titan. > > > > I would avoid poking fun at the "newbie" myself because as far as I understand, the raiding community is on an uphill battle in regards to justifying if its worth catering to the group of clientele. > > Hall of Chains was the nail in the coffin for me about raiding, I have over 300+LI and Legendary Armor, I've been raiding in GW2 since February 2016 so between Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass, yet I couldn't get accepted in a group without the dumb requirements for Desmina and Dhuum, I can already tell it's gonna be the same for the new one next week. > > When people say newcomers will have an easier time with raiding when a new raid comes out it's a huge lie, they will tempt you with a bunch of good stuff then act like hypocrites and refuse to take you with them in the shadows. This game would be far more healthy if they just sticked to fractals and made dungeons paths again with maybe one "big" raid per expansion with 5-6 encounters. The WoW model of dungeons+raids each release is the best in this regards. Another important point is that they don't rely on stupid story instances for everything like we do, and use their resources in worthwhile repeatable content, instead of play-once-and-forget story missions. To be fair, I think Fractals of the Mist were a much worse addition for PvE in general. Not only did they introduce a pointless gear grind with the agony infusions, but they also killed what made dungeons great, in exchange of, what? Random speed clear locations with no story. > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > And then the requirements of the training guild basically read: "Know every aspect of the content as if you had played it before", and instead an Ouroboros, we have a triskelion. If raids had easy mode, people would be able to learn on their own, without needing to read and watch guides, that will never be as effective as playing the content yourself. Screams of bad design to me. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Amineo.8951" said: > > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild > > > > Yea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill. > > > > Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining. > > > > Newbie -easy mode raids please. > > > > > > > > > > The default behavior of the general gamer is to learn as you go, this is truth in literally any genre. I've played games all my life and it was generally shunned to get the nintendo power guide when you purchase the next Mario or Zelda game for example. You will see this behavior largely due to the fact that Anet had marketed to a general gamer or populace more so someone that had played previous MMOs before and also explains why trains are much more populated than an instance raid. > > > > > > The clientele majority simply wants a plug and play approach to content, which is why overworld content is generally favored in any MMO, including WoW where the raid community is also a vast minority. > > > > > > The moment guides, or going to an external website for a meta build, or doing a separate training run is thrown into the mix, it begins to interfere with the plug and play approach therefore, we can conclude that these are not viable solutions. > > > > > > I should also mention that many online games have thrived with no raiding scene. The best example currently is Warframe where raids(they were called trials) were actually deleted from the game but that didn't stop the game from being one of the most played games in North America. It begs the question if raids are even worth the time for a PvE centric MMO when a game like Warframe is literal proof that raids aren't even needed to be an online PvE game titan. > > > > > > I would avoid poking fun at the "newbie" myself because as far as I understand, the raiding community is on an uphill battle in regards to justifying if its worth catering to the group of clientele. > > > > Hall of Chains was the nail in the coffin for me about raiding, I have over 300+LI and Legendary Armor, I've been raiding in GW2 since February 2016 so between Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass, yet I couldn't get accepted in a group without the dumb requirements for Desmina and Dhuum, I can already tell it's gonna be the same for the new one next week. > > > > When people say newcomers will have an easier time with raiding when a new raid comes out it's a huge lie, they will tempt you with a bunch of good stuff then act like hypocrites and refuse to take you with them in the shadows. This game would be far more healthy if they just sticked to fractals and made dungeons paths again with maybe one "big" raid per expansion with 5-6 encounters. > > It wasn't much different when they introduced Shattered Observatory CM. Everyone - understandably - wanted to minimize the amount of training groups they play in. Doing it once could be fun in its own right, but afterwards it's just annoying to fail over and over because some pug doesn't read chat or finds it difficult to follow advice. > > And just like with it, and with W5, the solution is simple - join a training group. Create one if there aren't any on the LFG. There will be players wanting to make their first kills, get their kps and be accepted into the clear groups. I was late to the party on both 100CM and W5, particularly Dhuum. Didn't stop me and it didn't take me long to collect enough kps to guarantee me a place in pretty much any group on the LFG. > > You're blaming the game, and the community, but really the problem is your own attitude. You want a shortcut. You want to join experienced groups without gaining that same experience yourself. How do you expect that to work? Why would other players just agree to carry you, or worse - fail because of you? They did their share of fails. It is only fair to expect you do the same. But Shattered Observatory has normal mode, so what's your point? Good job blaming the players every single time. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"IllegalChocolate.6938" said: > > I personally would like for this continue. > > Here's why: > > > > Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids. > > > > Just as planned. > > > > This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows? > > Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well? > > If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad. We get "5-man content" with every patch, through story missions. It's also clear ArenaNet wants instanced PvE to be raid, but I wouldn't be surprised to see fractals or dungeons get some attention if they give up on raids. > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > I remember when I was new in WoW raiding, I just asked if I can come with them - I didn't have any experience, and we did do all the bosses later. They weren't asking for like 1000 items of whatever and killproof. And it worked still. WoW has difficulty modes, so you can enter an "easy mode" raid with no idea of what to do, learn a thing or two, and then still beat the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Lonami.2987" said: > But Shattered Observatory has normal mode, so what's your point? > > Good job blaming the players every single time. Shattered having normal mode does nothing to alleviate the issue. Go ahead and try to join a 250+ kp group saying you have lots of experience on normal mode SO. Then come here and share the results. I'm very, VERY looking forward to it. :lol: And my point was the issue is overblown by players who want to be treated differently. Even if you're late to the party, you can still get in - as evidenced by personal examples by few players, myself included. What you can't get is said special treatment. And it's for a very good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Lonami.2987" said: > WoW has difficulty modes, so you can enter an "easy mode" raid with no idea of what to do, learn a thing or two, and then still beat the content. No you can't as they strip mechanics from bosses on the lowest difficulty. You learn that it doesn't matter that you contribute to the boss at all as half of the raid can afk and still collect loot. WoW LFR is the worst thing to bring as an example. There were screenshots around that we might get an easymode with reduced incoming and increased outgoing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > There were screenshots around that we might get an easymode with reduced incoming and increased outgoing damage. As if reduced damage would help with current Raids, unless it's only for the new Raid and is specifically designed with that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 i heard rumors of anet adding a new tutorial. and from what i've read here, it's needed soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogba.6204 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 And Shattered Observatory and Shattered Observatory CM only have the scenery and fractal difficulty in common. Normal SO does _nothing_ to prepare you for the CM version. Same with Nightmare. Look, your crusade for an easy mode is impressive yet you cannot provide solutions for glaring holes in said idea besides telling us A-Net will find a way. 1. How easy does an easy mode have to be to be considered easy enough? Not a single boss, not even the CMs variations, require a full squad. 2. What about boss mechanics if you don't have to worry about them? This is the LFR issue with WoW: Either you have to do the mechanic or you risk a wipe (not easy anymore) or you can simply ignore it (why bother learning mechanics then) 3. How should the reward be designed that it provides incentive to tackle easy modes without making the normal mode obsolete (No Legendary Insights or Kill Proofs for easy mode) but also provide enough reason to continue doing it in the future. 4. If developing ressources are already spread thin, forcing the devs to redesign every single encounter so that a loud minority can satisfy their desire for instant gratification but no interest in putting in the necessary effort while simultaneously halting future development for said content sounds like a terrible idea. 5. What exactly makes the boss fights too hard for said players in the first place? Shares points with 2. but the discussions always boils down to people **a)** lacking the required numbers of players to start the instance, **b)** being unwilling to put in the effort to improve themselves, then showing hostility towards players not wanting to carry them, **c)** being unwilling to adapt, **d>)** being unable to schedule for raids and **e)** being annoyed with KP/LI situation which ironically is also a result of the prior points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 > @"Grogba.6204" said: > Look, your crusade for an easy mode is impressive yet you cannot provide solutions for glaring holes in said idea besides telling us A-Net will find a way. Wrong thread lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzi.7605 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 The reason why raids was somehow popular in WoW was how easy it was to start raiding. Sure, there were people who would tryhard and goes with raid under 9,9999999999 min. But also many people dont care but that, they want just sit, 5 min and start raiding. And to be honest? It's the way game was made to play. Focus on fun, not on rush. While in gw2 its always bout "fast, faster, fastest". You deal only 14.90k dps while i did 15,1k = kick. And no, its not lie, even if i wish it was. The best moment is when you get with 10 other RANDOM players, and you must just survive. You start thinking "how to make it?". And dont care that much about numbers or builds. That's the direction - pure fun. That's also the reason why i dont care bout raids anymore in gw2. From time to time i do some PUG with newbies just for this joy. But i dont give a f. about doing boss 2 mins faster than before. And also i never kick someone from my group as long as he try. I dont require him to play my way or dont play at all (like most people do), i just try to complete it. No matter how. Sure, you might call me casual, but guess what. I dont care, bcs for me you are casuals hiding behind expectation wall (nice coincident that you want "pro" players in team... for carring you? just saying) :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.5428 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 I joined a group yesterday, for fun, w3. And there was a new guy. They queued as fun group. And there was a guy, sitting on his new chair from W6 calling the new guy baboon and telling him to buy a gun and kill himself. This cocky guy was 6k AP, I think he wal playing gw2 only for raids. So yeah, this community used to be cool some years ago, with small stains of toxicity in pvpmaybe w3. But now, no, everything is toxic. The ppl are getting used to be toxic in raids and then they are toxic when a meta fails etc. The thing that ruined the raid is the way Anet created the specializations. There are classes with useless specializations in raiding and there are classes who are a must. This game never had a real balance anyway, but since specs, it lacked more than ever. And yes, the raiding community is getting smaller because is very hard for newplayers to join. There are some training groups and guilds, but not enough. Let's get serious, even the open-world itself is pretty bad for a newplayer. HoT maps are underpopulated, Some PoF maps too (Desolation). GW2 has a very small replayability. Why do you think Anet never releases numbers? Is a low populated MMO and this is the truth. I have 4.5 years of GW2 on my back so I know what I am talking about. I hope it will get better but I doubt it. Righ now I am following news on the new Lord of the Rigs mmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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