Do you want new dungeons?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > > > Dungeons are really not all that different from fractals.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I get that people are clinging to the “dungeon” phrasing and assume that every game must follow the cookie cutter approach and release “dungeons” but that’s not the case here as fractals work just as well as they’re essentially the same thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeah, except they aren't for a few very important reasons.

> > > >

> > > > The only difference between dungeons and fractals is that a dungeon consists of three fractals that share the same map and have an overlapping path. They’re not really all that difference other than naming.

> > >

> > > If you apply a bit of depth to your thinking, you may understand that they are in fact different in a few very important ways. Length and world-context adds a lot for immersion, and dungeons are one of the primary ways other MMOs add immersion to their world. This immersion is important for a lot of players.

> >

> > Immersion is just a loaded word. Fractal and dungeons paths can have similar lengths. How many people are playing existing dungeons for the “immersion” instead of chasing rewards?

>

> It's not a loaded word. The lore of a setting and how that lore is executed upon within the game plays a very large role in the stickability of MMOs. Fractals do not have the ability to enhance the immersion of new continents and terrains that are opened up within the world the way dungeons do - that's the problem.

 

It’s a loaded word as it’s typically thrown about to trigger a set of feelings and is very subjective from person to person.

 

Dungeons are not needed to enhance new continents/maps. Better story and events can do that just fine. More fractals tied to the lore of those new areas can accomplish this as well.

 

The “dungeon” terminology itself is subjective and different with every game. What we call dungeons may not be what others who play other games would consider dungeons.

 

There’s relatively little that fractals cannot accomplish. If there’s something you feel that is missing, bring it to light and perhaps the team designing them can incorporate it with future fractals.

[Lucius.2140]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> There’s relatively little that fractals cannot accomplish. If there’s something you feel that is missing, bring it to light and perhaps the team designing them can incorporate it with future fractals.

 

Story, inmersion and length, the length of a fractal is smaller at least by half than most story and explorable dungeon paths. You guys are probably making the mistake because full speeds and killing bosses fast (powercreep + bad design) and because fractals become longer because mob scaling (fights take more times + wipes - all of that is difficulty and easily can be get on dungeons).

 

Those three points make way more interesting the dungeons and very well considered for a lot of people (check the poll results also).

 

An example with some differences (fighting modes, can be single or multiplayer with online or not):

 

Mod 1: Player is invited to fight in the XXX arena for the championship.

Mod 2: Players will have access to the round mode, where they will have levels of fights and progress until level 100.

 

Most people prefer the in game arena, because story, inmersion and the length of each interaction (one for the arena, 100 interactions for the round mode).

 

And yes dungeons are the ultimate controlled group challenge of a map and part of is story, like CoF (as easy as it was) was the end of the Flame Legion story for core at least, players could follow all the way from the black citadel to the citadel of flame, having the last map been the greatest example of the Flame Legion destructive power and the conflict with it and you know what: CoF is its culmination.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> This was another one of Colin's very questionable decisions that has been maintained for no good reason, and it's long past time it be reversed.

 

Actually, the reason was about how the company delivered content to the players, the value it gave to players and the cost to do so... seems like a great reason to me.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Lucius.2140" said:

> Story, inmersion and length, the length of a fractal is smaller at least by half than most story and explorable dungeon paths. You guys are probably making the mistake because full speeds and killing bosses fast (powercreep + bad design) and because fractals become longer because mob scaling (fights take more times + wipes - all of that is difficulty and easily can be get on dungeons).

 

Doubt it other than perhaps a couple paths in Arah. You mentioned mob scaling and such as to why fractals may seem longer. Have you looked at dungeons objectively to see what it is that makes them longer to you and if it's any meaningfully different from what you claim makes fractals seem longer?

 

Fractals can easily be made longer if necessary, have a deeper story, and involve different things that occur in the game. There's nothing that dungeons do that they cannot do as well. At least as far as those three points you listed.

 

> Those three points make way more interesting the dungeons and very well considered for a lot of people (check the poll results also).

 

But perhaps you should ask those people why it is that they chose to want more dungeons. Chances are those same reasons they give can easily be done with fractals.

 

> And yes dungeons are the ultimate controlled group challenge of a map and part of is story, like CoF (as easy as it was) was the end of the Flame Legion story for core at least, players could follow all the way from the black citadel to the citadel of flame, having the last map been the greatest example of the Flame Legion destructive power and the conflict with it and you know what: CoF is its culmination.

 

And that could easily be done in fractals. You also don't need a dungeon to "wrap up a story" with of the open world as it can easily be done with a meta. Fractals can focus on more lore and flesh out the "story".

[Lucius.2140]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

 

No, most dungeon paths are longer in fact they introduced fractals as mini dungeons shorter than your average dungeon path. I can do a dungeon in 7 mins skipping and coordinating (the shorter paths), try to not skip and they will take way more, a low level fractal (on par in difficulty with dungeons), can be done in that time without skipping.

 

You are talking about things fractals don't have but can: length, inmersion and generally story in the timeline of the game (from base to the last content).

The length can be done but the other two can't properly:

- Story: fractals conceptually are a possibility on Tyria, past, present or future. That's a fundamental impossibility of them, plus passing from the observatory to the instance is a huge inmersion breaker and story flaw.

- Inmersion: Fractals conceptually arent and more importantly will never be in the game map or world, that's a fundamental no for immersion, you are in the mist and you know it.

 

The lone concept of the observatory kills both features.

 

I put you an example you didn't quote, is the same concept fractals come about.

Anet replaced the dungeons because it took them more time (check the early interviews) not because fractals were a replace to them.

 

I understand you see similarities and like a lot FoTM but you are forcing your arguments, Fotm by nature will never have the connection with story and immersion the dungeons have (in fact that are the same reasons plus agony that caused a lot of people don't play them as they fill disconnected an even if they add the several improvements you talked about, will ever maintain disconnected).

 

Pd: Also the length will be a change of the fractal philosophy in itself, probably they wouldn't do it and obviously will take them more time and resources.

[Aaralyna.3104]

They already mentioned dungeons are the past and fractals is the current thing. However I feel dungeons (in particular story versions) are easier to enter with a group of friends (if you cannot get 5 players together and you want no random players along). In fractals you kinda need to be with 5 players due to tacts (or if you want to do it the intended way with discovering everything, paying attention to its storyline and take the time so no mesmer porting and all that). This is also what keeps me away from fractals.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Lucius.2140" said:

> No, most dungeon paths are longer in fact they introduced fractals as mini dungeons shorter than your average dungeon path. I can do a dungeon in 7 mins skipping and coordinating (the shorter paths), try to not skip and they will take way more, a low level fractal (on par in difficulty with dungeons), can be done in that time without skipping.

>

> You are talking about things fractals don't have but can: length, inmersion and generally story in the timeline of the game (from base to the last content).

> The length can be done but the other two can't properly:

> - Story: fractals conceptually are a possibility on Tyria, past, present or future. That's a fundamental impossibility of them, plus passing from the observatory to the instance is a huge inmersion breaker and story flaw.

> - Inmersion: Fractals conceptually arent and more importantly will never be in the game map or world, that's a fundamental no for immersion, you are in the mist and you know it.

>

> The lone concept of the observatory kills both features.

>

> I put you an example you didn't quote, is the same concept fractals come about.

> Anet replaced the dungeons because it took them more time (check the early interviews) not because fractals were a replace to them.

>

> I understand you see similarities and like a lot FoTM but you are forcing your arguments, Fotm by nature will never have the connection with story and immersion the dungeons have (in fact that are the same reasons plus agony that caused a lot of people don't play them as they fill disconnected an even if they add the several improvements you talked about, will ever maintain disconnected).

>

> Pd: Also the length will be a change of the fractal philosophy in itself, probably they wouldn't do it and obviously will take them more time and resources.

 

So artificial length is now the standard for what makes one thing better than the other? Look at what challenges are required for the GW2 dungeons vs the challenges required for the fractals. They're pretty much the same although the newer fractals are a bit more involved.

 

Fractals can have a story. You forget that the existing stories within dungeons are frozen in time. I mean, we can do a story with Eir in it or fight Zhaitan.

 

Your extent of immersion centers around the entrance portal being on a map; it's nonexistent after that. If the Ascalon fractal had a portal somewhere one one of the Ascalon maps... Or there's the fractals from LS1... Anet could very well create a few fractals that center around the history of Elona.

 

I'm not forcing my arguments. All I'm saying is that fractals and dungeons are pretty much the same and newer fractals could be made to incorporate some of the things you like which they currently do not possess from your perspective.

[Lucius.2140]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> So artificial length is now the standard for what makes one thing better than the other? Look at what challenges are required for the GW2 dungeons vs the challenges required for the fractals. They're pretty much the same although the newer fractals are a bit more involved.

>

 

No, check the number of events, bosses, etc. per dungeon and fractals, fractals have less.

What makes the dungeons shorter in time or the same for some people is because in fractals you usually need to kill the mobs (that scale) and in dungeons no (and theres no scaling), that's because the scaling and design on fractals make them more difficult to skip.

 

The dungeon mobs and encounters were done without considering several trends like stacking and skipping, plus there's no scaling so you can't get a good and proper comparison between a skip run of a dungeon and a fractal in time to get the length, less the higher the fractals are.

 

This makes people believe the lenght is similar whne tehy are not and by concept fractals were like a brief dungeon path (check old devs talks about FoTm when they dropped).

 

If you have a dungeon designed with the same concepts as fractals or the other way, the difference will be more notable, because dungeons offer more encounters (witch in similar conditions will determine a bigger lenght). This is more notable when you start or play with starters with a low level character.

 

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Fractals can have a story. You forget that the existing stories within dungeons are frozen in time. I mean, we can do a story with Eir in it or fight Zhaitan.

>

I dont thats why i said since gw2 core to the actuals patches. They are tied with the narrative of the game in similar years normally, only exceptions of fractals are related to the alliances of Scarlets army and the fractals were cut in pieces (no inmersion, no continued story).

 

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Your extent of immersion centers around the entrance portal being on a map; it's nonexistent after that. If the Ascalon fractal had a portal somewhere one one of the Ascalon maps... Or there's the fractals from LS1... Anet could very well create a few fractals that center around the history of Elona.

>

No again, my extent of inmersion centers in not starting in a HUB with floating islands and star wars troopers in a place that lore wise isn't reality itself but fragments of different timelines and possibilities: FoTM is the worst place for inmersion because of that, conceptually and practically will never be immersive, is a fundamental difference.

Basically the concept and the start kill the immersion, not the map entrance for gods sake.

 

> I'm not forcing my arguments. All I'm saying is that fractals and dungeons are pretty much the same and newer fractals could be made to incorporate some of the things you like which they currently do not possess from your perspective.

 

Similar but with conceptul differences that put them apart (like originally was intended).

Fractals by design have less encounters, thats a difference in the formula and originally were created (this is true for the first 50 levels) to be done in succession like passing different levels, because that was supposed to traduce in less time. The formula by itself is not immersive.

Also they put unrelated, lost and years before the game content on it.

 

As said changing the formula will generate two problems:

First no point in putting a for example next expansion group story instance in the mist, is not practical at all. The problem with the old dungeons is the scripting btw, they can create new ones in other places, like any instance (this is not for you but i remember reading someone post it).

 

Second: the difference in encounters that could traduce in length will make the fractals longers to make, that's one of the reasons they abandoned dungeons, the second one, is more difficult to make no scaled mobs not skippable and the third one: to not look at the old dungeons and their problems.

 

Creating smaller instances like fractals but relevant to the ingame story (in any of their parts be 2018 one, 2012, etc.) in Tyria and not the mists will have like one thousand more sense than putting it in that hub, is not in the concept of it, not immersive and doesn't help them sale expansions.

 

I do understand where you want to go but the concepts of them, their attributes, the effects they have and the form to use them by developers, made fotm a bad decision for a more like dungeon content.

 

PD: LS1 isn't in game that's why you have the fractals for it (lost content).

 

Edit: Also will not answer more since my wall of texts don't help other discuss and both viewpoints are already well described and hope well contrasted.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Lucius.2140" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > So artificial length is now the standard for what makes one thing better than the other? Look at what challenges are required for the GW2 dungeons vs the challenges required for the fractals. They're pretty much the same although the newer fractals are a bit more involved.

> >

>

> No, check the number of events, bosses, etc. per dungeon and fractals, fractals have less.

> What makes the dungeons shorter in time or the same for some people is because in fractals you usually need to kill the mobs (that scale) and in dungeons no (and theres no scaling), that's because the scaling and design on fractals make them more difficult to skip.

>

> The dungeon mobs and encounters were done without considering several trends like stacking and skipping, plus there's no scaling so you can't get a good and proper comparison between a skip run of a dungeon and a fractal in time to get the length, less the higher the fractals are.

>

> This makes people believe the lenght is similar whne tehy are not and by concept fractals were like a brief dungeon path (check old devs talks about FoTm when they dropped).

>

> If you have a dungeon designed with the same concepts as fractals or the other way, the difference will be more notable, because dungeons offer more encounters (witch in similar conditions will determine a bigger lenght). This is more notable when you start or play with starters with a low level character.

>

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Fractals can have a story. You forget that the existing stories within dungeons are frozen in time. I mean, we can do a story with Eir in it or fight Zhaitan.

> >

> I dont thats why i said since gw2 core to the actuals patches. They are tied with the narrative of the game in similar years normally, only exceptions of fractals are related to the alliances of Scarlets army and the fractals were cut in pieces (no inmersion, no continued story).

>

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Your extent of immersion centers around the entrance portal being on a map; it's nonexistent after that. If the Ascalon fractal had a portal somewhere one one of the Ascalon maps... Or there's the fractals from LS1... Anet could very well create a few fractals that center around the history of Elona.

> >

> No again, my extent of inmersion centers in not starting in a HUB with floating islands and star wars troopers in a place that lore wise isn't reality itself but fragments of different timelines and possibilities: FoTM is the worst place for inmersion because of that, conceptually and practically will never be immersive, is a fundamental difference.

> Basically the concept and the start kill the immersion, not the map entrance for gods sake.

>

> > I'm not forcing my arguments. All I'm saying is that fractals and dungeons are pretty much the same and newer fractals could be made to incorporate some of the things you like which they currently do not possess from your perspective.

>

> Similar but with conceptul differences that put them apart (like originally was intended).

> Fractals by design have less encounters, thats a difference in the formula and originally were created (this is true for the first 50 levels) to be done in succession like passing different levels, because that was supposed to traduce in less time. The formula by itself is not immersive.

> Also they put unrelated, lost and years before the game content on it.

>

> As said changing the formula will generate two problems:

> First no point in putting a for example next expansion group story instance in the mist, is not practical at all. The problem with the old dungeons is the scripting btw, they can create new ones in other places, like any instance (this is not for you but i remember reading someone post it).

>

> Second: the difference in encounters that could traduce in length will make the fractals longers to make, that's one of the reasons they abandoned dungeons, the second one, is more difficult to make no scaled mobs not skippable and the third one: to not look at the old dungeons and their problems.

>

> Creating smaller instances like fractals but relevant to the ingame story (in any of their parts be 2018 one, 2012, etc.) in Tyria and not the mists will have like one thousand more sense than putting it in that hub, is not in the concept of it, not immersive and doesn't help them sale expansions.

>

> I do understand where you want to go but the concepts of them, their attributes, the effects they have and the form to use them by developers, made fotm a bad decision for a more like dungeon content.

>

> PD: LS1 isn't in game that's why you have the fractals for it (lost content).

>

> Edit: Also will not answer more since my wall of texts don't help other discuss and both viewpoints are already well described and hope well contrasted.

>

 

I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

 

And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

[derd.6413]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > Dungeons are really not all that different from fractals.

> > > >

> > > > I get that people are clinging to the “dungeon” phrasing and assume that every game must follow the cookie cutter approach and release “dungeons” but that’s not the case here as fractals work just as well as they’re essentially the same thing.

> > >

> > > Yeah, except they aren't for a few very important reasons.

> >

> > The only difference between dungeons and fractals is that a dungeon consists of three fractals that share the same map and have an overlapping path. They’re not really all that difference other than naming.

>

> If you apply a bit of depth to your thinking, you may understand that they are in fact different in a few very important ways. Length and world-context adds a lot for immersion, and dungeons are one of the primary ways other MMOs add immersion to their world. This immersion is important for a lot of players.

 

don't need dungeons for that, they could make more of those open world mini-dungeons like the dwarven ruins in the dessert highlands for that instead of bringing back the old dungeons

[Henry.5713]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

>

> I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

> Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

> In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

>

> And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

 

Killing 90% of the mobs in Fractals is quite a faaar stretch. You skip, pull, portal and GG (something you can't do in dungeons) your way through any Fractal these days. Can't think of a single one where you can't (ab)use at least one of the things I mentioned.

[derd.6413]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> >

> > I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

> > Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

> > In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

> >

> > And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> > There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

>

> Killing 90% of the mobs in Fractals is quite a faaar stretch. You skip, pull, portal and GG (something you can't do in dungeons) your way through any Fractal these days. Can't think of a single one where you can't (ab)use at least one of the things I mentioned.

 

and in dungeons you just have your thief stealth the party past them. and if i had to compare (i play both) i'd say that ppl kill more of the mobs in fractals then dungeons

[Lonami.2987]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> Something is missing from fractals, they just don't satisfy something in me that dungeons to.

 

Same here. I think it's the scope and the exploration.

 

> @"Chay.7852" said:

> I would like to see more instanced content in gw2. But a little bit different, more gw1-style of dungeons.

> * designed for different group sizes (i know you can low-man content but that's not what i mean - gw1-players might remember)

> * different difficulties (not simply the challenge mode) - we used to have "normal" - dungeons and elite dungeons/missions, which were harder themselves (you could still play them in hard mode though)

> * multi-layer dungeons like "Slayer's exile" (where you had 4 paths you could do in which order you wanted, in your pace - like you could do one today and the next one in 1 month and it didn't reset on a certain day, and after you finished those you could enter the last path with the end boss)

> * more group-vs-group fights than group-vs-one-boss-with-x-phases-fights

> * unskippable "trash-mobs" (you had to kill certain groups or do a certain event in order to proceed)

> * dedicated drops (don't know if i choose the right word, sry, i'm not a native speaker) - in certain dungeons you got certain special (mostly high-desired) skins/weapons/items.

> * and last but not least, though i know it might not be received well, gw1-style of difficulty where if you died, you were dead and had to start the mission over.

>

 

Agree with most of that, especially groups of enemies having synergies, but what they really need to do is use procedurals every time you enter a dungeon. Not pure procedurals, since that would be hell with the kind of graphics we have, but something in between. For example, use rubble to block random tunnels now and then. Open some rooms only every few runs. Add a huge pool of bosses, and randomize their spawn points.

 

Every run should feel fresh and new, and force you to explore to find the way in. Fractals get boring quick because in the end, they're just a straight path, where nothing ever changes.

 

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> This was another one of Colin's very questionable decisions that has been maintained for no good reason, and it's long past time it be reversed. Dungeons are really a very important part of the MMORPG experience, and neither FoTM nor raids can fully compensate for a lack of regular in-world dungeons because the latter lacks the accessibility and the small-team camaraderie and the former lacks context-based immersion with the ability to add real depth to the world.

>

> HoT and PoF were both hurt by the fact that they had no dungeons whatsoever. Think about how cool something like a Cave of Wonders style dungeon somewhere in the crystal desert would have been. I actually think they put too much effort into open world at this point, and need to shift some resources to instance content. Having 2-3 new full size zones with fun metas and 2 new dungeons in a LW season would make a lot more sense than having 6 small zones with competing metas - some of which are much better than others.

 

It's even worse when you realize a lot of story instances could have been dungeons instead. Look no further than LW3-4, and the battle agains't Caudecus, or LW2 and Glint's Lair, a beautiful place, all but wasted for one single story mission. Or Kormir's Library, or the Domain of the Lost, etc.

 

What a huge wasted opportunity those were.

 

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > >

> > > I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

> > > Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

> > > In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

> > >

> > > And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> > > There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

> >

> > Killing 90% of the mobs in Fractals is quite a faaar stretch. You skip, pull, portal and GG (something you can't do in dungeons) your way through any Fractal these days. Can't think of a single one where you can't (ab)use at least one of the things I mentioned.

>

> and in dungeons you just have your thief stealth the party past them. and if i had to compare (i play both) i'd say that ppl kill more of the mobs in fractals then dungeons

 

Force people to kill them to progress, like Twilight Arbor Aetherpath does.

 

I'm fine allowing people to skip mobs, but it should happen through alternative paths where other challenges await.

[derd.6413]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > >

> > > > I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

> > > > Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

> > > > In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

> > > >

> > > > And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> > > > There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

> > >

> > > Killing 90% of the mobs in Fractals is quite a faaar stretch. You skip, pull, portal and GG (something you can't do in dungeons) your way through any Fractal these days. Can't think of a single one where you can't (ab)use at least one of the things I mentioned.

> >

> > and in dungeons you just have your thief stealth the party past them. and if i had to compare (i play both) i'd say that ppl kill more of the mobs in fractals then dungeons

>

> Force people to kill them to progress, like Twilight Arbor Aetherpath does.

>

> I'm fine allowing people to skip mobs, but it should happen through alternative paths where other challenges await.

 

you might wanna read to what i was replying to. i was stating that "you can skip mobs in fractals" isn't an argument in favor of dungeons because dungeons have it worse. i wasn't saying that dungeons are bad because you can skip mobs.

[Deadvillager.1956]

New dungeons would be highly appreciated. Everyone likes dungeons and i miss the unique approach from anet. Just imagine what the fractals/raids team could do in a dungeon setup :(

[sigur.9453]

> @"Deadvillager.1956" said:

> New dungeons would be highly appreciated. Everyone likes dungeons and i miss the unique approach from anet. Just imagine what the fractals/raids team could do in a dungeon setup :(

 

As a part of "everyone" i have to disagree.

Trashmobs are no fun. Especially with that horrible "stack and smack" ai.

[Lucius.2140]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

>I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 >stealth skiped past them.

>Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

>In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people >are in such a hurry)

 

>And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

 

Read what i put better, that aplicates to your wall post lol (except last two sentences since you used point on the "(")

 

Never said they don't have story, they don't have story on the "present" of the game narrative (since gw2 core to actual patches), except the LS1 ones that are fragmented and are there because they are lost content. Explained that well man, insisted on it. In fact i described the formula they have by concept.

Also except Jokos one, their level of story is very low (thats side lines go to the main argument).

 

Second, yes, i think i put around there about dungeons that was bad design, if not it was in the second one. Oh but i put dungeons flaws.

Also: that's why the "Yes but of a better quality dungeons" option is. You also can check what i voted for.

 

Fractals had two advantages: done later and enhanced later.

[KGS.9842]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Deadvillager.1956" said:

> > New dungeons would be highly appreciated. Everyone likes dungeons and i miss the unique approach from anet. Just imagine what the fractals/raids team could do in a dungeon setup :(

>

> As a part of "everyone" i have to disagree.

> Trashmobs are no fun. Especially with that horrible "stack and smack" ai.

 

I still remember the unique approach of stacking behind a column so all the mobs run to us fondly

 

On a serious note though given what looks like to be the rate in which instanced content is released, adding more things in development will only dilute everything further. It's not like they'll hire new people for the dungeons so that we get more content faster.

 

[Turkeyspit.3965]

I like both dungeons and fractals, but I don't think a large chunk of the modern MMO player base has a willingness to spend that long in instanced content. I can complete T4 dailies and recs in just over an hour - that's 6 fractals, in the about the time it takes for 1-2 exploration paths for any given dungeon.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> >

> > I dont see the point about being more immersion mate, I mean dungeons you either 1 stacked at a spot out of line of sight to get mobs to come to you and kill or 2 stealth skiped past them.

> > Then you killed 3-4 bosses and 2-3 events each path done.

> > In fracatals you have to fight 90% of the mobs on the way to boss and thats more to my likeing, its how I tried to do dungeons but its harder to do nowdays. ( people are in such a hurry)

> >

> > And since your saying there are no story I guess you havent done the asura one in there?

> > There is nothing hindering anet from doing more like chaos-nightmare-shattered observatory story in the future.

>

> Killing 90% of the mobs in Fractals is quite a faaar stretch. You skip, pull, portal and GG (something you can't do in dungeons) your way through any Fractal these days. Can't think of a single one where you can't (ab)use at least one of the things I mentioned.

 

Yea but you dont skip many mobs except in afew for example snowblind, solid ocean.

Aetherblade you skip 6 mobs but kill vastly more then that.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I also think they could have combined the dungeon/living story and used that for the new dungeon "system" instead of just having most story content in instanced versions of the open world.

 

It would actually be really cool if you could venture into dungeons with the NPCs in addition to other players.

 

They could still do this, and it might be a good approach for the next LW season. Instead of just having new open world zone maps, have some of new dungeons. A mixture of both (i.e. 3 and 3) instead of fully one or the other would be best.

[Einlanzer.1627]

This should not have been moved to the dungeon subforum - it is a generalized discussion about dungeons including a survey about interest in dungeons, so it should be in general. Having it in the dungeon subforum only has the effect of limiting its visibility to people browsing the forums to people who are looking for information about dungeons.

 

Please move it back to general.

[Teratus.2859]

Absolutely want more dungeons.

 

But perhaps not quite the same as the old ones.. 1 story and a few explorable paths.

Fractals are a good substitute for dungeons if your looking for that quick run through dungeon and get the loot experience.

And Raids are pretty much the hardcore difficulty boss run fix that others are looking for.

 

But what Gw2 is lacking is that classic MMO dungeon experience that Wooden Potatoes was talking about while streaming Guildwars 1 quite recently.

That elite dungeon experience in Gw1 like Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Urgoz Warren etc is almost completely absent in Gw2 and I have to admit I do miss it myself tbh. (the only real example I can think of in Gw2 is Arah explorable when you're in a group that doesn't know what they are doing)

 

I think it would be a lot of fun to make a 10 man squad and invest hours playing a giant dungeon in gw2 fighting through hordes of enemies and finally taking down the big bad at the end and getting a ton of good loot for it.. more so if there is a persistent penalty for dying, like Death Penalty was in gw1.

These dungeons were not about difficulty or farming.. they were a pure endurance challenge and I think that's what alot of players miss when they speak fondly of older MMO's and the dungeon experience.

[Lucius.2140]

at 20/09/18 4 hours and 15 minutes before reset: 179

Yes, i want more dungeons.49% (89 votes)

No, i don't want more dungeon: 7% (14 votes),

Yes, only if they are of better quality than the old ones: 15%,

No, we have fractals for that: 20% (36 votes).

 

As put when i started this thread and stated by other post before this one, moving this to the "Dungeons, fractals and raids subforum could cause a bias":

Most people that played only dungeons (not fractals), play group content only a little or don't play because the dungeons are forgotten, don't have incentives to come to this subforum.

Making more probable that the new voters come from the group that mainly do fractals to vote. The general forum because is not biased to a specific group that could defend a specific position.

 

I'm adding this explanation to my starting thread post.

To a moderator: Please put this back in the general forum and thank you very much.

 

[Tyson.5160]

Fractals are nice and all, but I like the hub and paths that the old dungeons had.