Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > The supply does not have to increase, the demand dropping is more than enough to drop the price.

> > > >

> > > > People are once again blaming fictional TP barons and asking for not needed market influence because "I want my shiny now" mentality is going strong once again.

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> > >

> > > They're not fictional. There are people out there who can and do control whole portions of the economy.

> > >

> > > ANet should have made a recipe for this sigil before introducing it as a material since the supply is limited and that would tie it to other materials and give it a value based on the already functioning economy.

> > >

> > > Look at the graph on this link. You will see that in 1 hour nearly the entire stock of sigils was purchased and then once the demand goes up, thousands are dropped back into the economy for 500x more than they were purchased for and then it only gets worse from there. Like 4500x more expensive.

> > > [bLTC Link](https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/24572-Superior-Sigil-of-Nullification "https://gw2bltc.com/en/item/24572-Superior-Sigil-of-Nullification")

> > >

> > > Don't try and tell people that TPBarons don't exist it's just willfully ignorant and plain wrong.

> >

> > You have shown many things. Not one thing you showed was proof of a minority cornering the market or being responsible for the dramatic price increase.

> >

> > You are the exact person who likes to take multiple facts, make statements about them, come up with a group of people to blame (in this case in game wealthy minority) while not taking into account basic and mostly common knowledge how markets and large groups of people function or react. Especially since we have official statements from the past that market control on items is very seldom, very limited time wise and often not profitable for the controller.

> >

> > I never said there is no rich players in GW2.

> >

> > I never stated that there is no people who took advantage of early information and try to flip a quick buck.

> >

> > I said the price spike is not due to some few TP barons and prices will drop once the spike is over.

> >

> > Yes this does include thousands of normal GW2 players who might gamble on the item increasing in value and purchasing a stack for themselves. I have done so myself in the past if I had the chance. I am by far no where near where a TP baron might be.

>

> If you actually look at the data, 18k sigils were bought in 1 hour taking the supply from 22k to 4k. That's not a lot of people doing it all at once. It's the first person and maybe a few mates he told about it buying the entire stock because they were vendor price and it's obvious the demand is about to skyrocket. Then, as it does, you can see them dumping them back in making bulk gold from other players. That is controlling the market and it's a situation that shouldn't happen.

 

And I say 'good for them'.

 

They aren't cheating, they are playing the game. They are displaying capitalist behaviors and I am actually glad they can't be taxed any more then they are through the TP

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

And the ubiquitous 'they' are profiting off people who want it ***Now***

[Randulf.7614]

Is the dev tag on this thread an error from a merging?

[Dante.1763]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Is the dev tag on this thread an error from a merging?

 

Gaile had posted two messages "reserved for merging" or something like that.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> It takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to define something that can be attained at no monetary cost as, "a ripoff."

 

Time is money, friend.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"gerrylix.5234" said:

> > > Atm 1 sigil is at **6g 76s **and only 1300 left on the TP and that's even before the weekend spike.

> > >

> > > 20x 6g 76 =** 135g only for sigils** atm, this will spike even higher

> > >

> > > The influx of new sigils is so low that the TP will dry out in no time.

> > >

> > > **Let's be honest, this skin is a ripoff and it's sad that anet was so incompetent to not see this coming.**

> >

> > It takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to define something that can be attained at no monetary cost as, "a ripoff."

>

> Ehhh to be fair to him, not every player has that much gold sitting around for one item needed for a collection of which also needs other expensive items, and honestly i have to agree, collections shouldnt include items that dont have a way to obtain them at a decent rate, which these sigils really dont.

>

> Just glad im waiting for awhile before i go after them.

 

I am certainly not claiming that I consider the current situation ideal, but a ripoff it isnt.

 

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > It takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to define something that can be attained at no monetary cost as, "a ripoff."

>

> Time is money, friend.

 

Sometimes, perhaps

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

The second I found out about these I bought them right away. Lost 30 gold but that was before they went up.

 

Now the Elegy Mosaics is the same story but for a lower tier set.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> All this would have been avoided if a recipe was made with the patch, just cut and paste any other sigil recipe code and add 50 kralkatite ore to it, done. No issues.

 

But we need new sinks for worthless sigils, not for kralkatite ore or mats that are used to craft other sigils because those mats are already in a healthy state.

Most sigils need refined t6 leather/wood/metal, ectos and 1-2 additional items that changes with each sigil.

Ectos and t6 mats already are a requirement to finish this collection, so why add more demand on that? Sounds counter-productive to your goal.

 

And here are some examples of the other items that are needed to craft other sigils:

 

* Lodestones

* Plat Doubloons

* 250 watchwork sprockets

* 100 toxic spore samples

* freshwater pearls

 

To name a few. And most of them have less supply on the tp than the nulli sigils had before the patch, so i doubt that using a craftable sigil the requirement would have changed much about the current expenses you need to make for the nulli sigils.

 

And if you think that 50 kralkatite ore for sigil would in any way go down smoother with the ommunity, i have to disagree.

 

I would be proper pissed, if I would have to go back to Istan and farm 1250 map currency to complete a collection on the new map.

 

 

 

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> They're not fictional. There are people out there who can and do control whole portions of the economy.

 

No, there arent people out there who can control whole portions of the economy, there are just people out there who can predict how whole portions of the player base will react when changes to the economy are made.

 

In order for that change to happen, the majority of players need to change their behaviour and interaction with the market and a couple of tp barons cant influence that while standing in front of the tp.

 

[Ferus.3165]

I ask this question because of the requirement for the new armor that the new ls chapter brought us. As everyone here probably knows you need some sigils of nullification to complete the armor collection. When you take a look at the guide on dulfy you need 25 of those. So here is the problem. Before the price for these sigils spiked there were around 20k in the tradingpost and it took many months for these sigils to accumulate. One can probably assume that there were alot more of those sigils in the banks or the trading posts of some traders alt accounts. With those 20k sigils that were on the trading post however only **800** people could finish their armor collection. Even if we assume that there are 200k sigils of nullification (that were simply bought per buy order over the time) it would still mean that **only 8k** people would be able to finish their collection.

 

I do not know the exact playercount of gw2 and found different numbers on several websites ranging from 1.5 million to over 3 million players that log in at least once per month for the year 2018.

 

Do you see the problem now? Even if there are "only" 1.5 million players and even if only 10% of those want to make the new armor there are **by far** not enough sigils in this game for those players to even be able to complete their collections (not even talking about the price of those sigils).

 

So either these new armor skins will be super rare and the price of those sigils will skyrocket to infinity or someone from anet has to change the collection.

 

What do you think about this?

 

edit: 25 instead of 20 sigils

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> What do you think about this?

 

No. The game is not dead because you are not getting your shinies cheap enough.

 

Nice clickbait title though.

 

 

[Randulf.7614]

It would be easier to post in the merged thread on it. Feedback carries more weight in a single thread and it makes it easier for Devs to pick up on the issues

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/55656/superior-sigil-of-nullification/p1

 

At the moment I'm waiting it out, partly becuase it will be weeks/months before I finish the collections and partly because there is no chance I'm paying out gold I can't spare for something not worth (to me) such a high pixel price. I will see if Anet intervenes with a solution first or if the market works itself out

 

 

[Haishao.6851]

it's 25 sigils.

10 for gloves, 5 for shoulder, 5 for hat, 5 for chest.

 

[Dante.1763]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > What do you think about this?

>

> No. The game is not dead because you are not getting your shinies cheap enough.

>

> Nice clickbait title though.

>

>

 

His math isnt wrong though is it? The title though is..less than ideal.

[Ferus.3165]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > What do you think about this?

>

> No. The game is not dead because you are not getting your shinies cheap enough.

>

> Nice clickbait title though.

>

>

 

I have no problem with that price personally because i had several stacks of those sigils in my bank :D but yeah thx for the answer.

 

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> It would be easier to post in the merged thread on it. Feedback carries more weight in a single thread and it makes it easier for Devs to pick up on the issues

>

 

yeah i will prob make a post there aswell, did not know about this thread till now.

 

> @"Dante.1763" said:

>The title though is..less than ideal.

 

Sry for the clickbait :D

 

[Ferus.3165]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > All this would have been avoided if a recipe was made with the patch, just cut and paste any other sigil recipe code and add 50 kralkatite ore to it, done. No issues.

>

> But we need new sinks for worthless sigils, not for kralkatite ore or mats that are used to craft other sigils because those mats are already in a healthy state.

> Most sigils need refined t6 leather/wood/metal, ectos and 1-2 additional items that changes with each sigil.

> Ectos and t6 mats already are a requirement to finish this collection, so why add more demand on that? Sounds counter-productive to your goal.

>

> And here are some examples of the other items that are needed to craft other sigils:

>

> * Lodestones

 

Lodestones are farmable, price would go up, but players would start to farm the maps with lodestones as map reward. Also many people prob have 25 lodestones of every type. That would actually be a really good decicion. And how are lodestones for 20 silver in a healthy state?

 

> * Plat Doubloons

> * 250 watchwork sprockets

> * 100 toxic spore samples

> * freshwater pearls

 

Those very specific ones are used only for one type of sigil or rune each and yeah they would be equally problematic or even worse than nullification sigils.

 

 

> And if you think that 50 kralkatite ore for sigil would in any way go down smoother with the ommunity, i have to disagree.

 

At least kralkatite ore is farmable. Yeah it would take a while, but kralk ore farm is quite fast.

 

 

> I would be proper pissed, if I would have to go back to Istan and farm 1250 map currency to complete a collection on the new map.

 

That is because you were prob one of those who made tons of money :D. I'd be pissed to if had to play the game like most others instead of making thousands of gold :D.

 

 

As it stands right now with the supply of 20k sigils we had on monday only 800 people would be able to finish the collection. Even if the real supply is 10 times greater only a ridiculous low number of people would be able to finish the armor collection. Something needs to change.

 

[Klipso.8653]

Are you talking about the sigil you get for personal story? Every character on every account can access that one

[Danikat.8537]

You're making the mistake of assuming that every available sigil is already in the game (and on the TP) which is not the case. They can be salvaged from several weapons which are still available as drops - which means new ones enter the game all the time, the supply is basically infinite. Slow compared to current demand maybe, but still infinite unless for some reason Anet removes all sources of new sigils which seems unlikely. And the current demand won't last, so those who are unwilling or unable to pay the current price can wait until it settles down.

 

Besides which it wouldn't surprise me if speculators bought up large numbers of sigils as soon as they heard they were required for the new armour set and they're slowly selling them back at the inflated price - meaning at least some of the current drop in availability is artificial and definitely won't last beyond them being the latest 'must have' thing.

 

Edit: Also I suspect part of the reason it took many months for those 20k that were on the TP to accumulate is because before the last update they were selling for the minimum price, and a lot of people simply don't bother to list runes and sigils if they've hit the minimum because it's not worth the hassle - you spend months waiting for them to sell and only get back what you would have gotten from a merchant anyway. So during that time a large number of the ones entering the game were being deleted almost as quickly. Now they're worth more there will be more of an incentive for people to sell them (or use them, which comes to the same thing because then they don't need to buy one).

[Ferus.3165]

> @"Klipso.8653" said:

> Are you talking about the sigil you get for personal story? Every character on every account can access that one

 

I am talking about sigil of nullification.

 

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> You're making the mistake of assuming that every available sigil is already in the game (and on the TP) which is not the case. They can be salvaged from several weapons which are still available as drops - which means new ones enter the game all the time, the supply is basically infinite. Slow compared to current demand maybe, but still infinite unless for some reason Anet removes all sources of new sigils which seems unlikely. And the current demand won't last, so those who are unwilling or unable to pay the current price can wait until it settles down.

>

> Besides which it wouldn't surprise me if speculators bought up large numbers of sigils as soon as they heard they were required for the new armour set and they're slowly selling them back at the inflated price - meaning at least some of the current drop in availability is artificial and definitely won't last beyond them being the latest 'must have' thing.

>

> Edit: Also I suspect part of the reason it took many months for those 20k that were on the TP to accumulate is because before the last update they were selling for the minimum price, and a lot of people simply don't bother to list runes and sigils if they've hit the minimum because it's not worth the hassle - you spend months waiting for them to sell and only get back what you would have gotten from a merchant anyway. So during that time a large number of the ones entering the game were being deleted almost as quickly. Now they're worth more there will be more of an incentive for people to sell them (or use them, which comes to the same thing because then they don't need to buy one).

 

It took almost a year for the supply in the trading post to grow from 5k to 20k sigils. Even if many people sold them to vendors or threw them away and did not list them on the tp (would be worse because there would be even less available sigils right now), even if those 20k sigils would accumulate every month (that means 10 times faster than during the last year)... that would be 800 people per month. So after 15 years 10% of the playerbase would be able to finish that armor??? Just lol. And i think you vastly overestimate the droprate of the exo weapons with said sigil. The extra sigils available through weapons (btw the only source for those sigils apart of lvl 64 reward) right now is laughable small. You can simply check some numbers on gw2 spidy or many others trading post sites on how many there were before the spike.

[nGumball.1283]

Sigils were useless = low demand = low price = people couldn't care less about collecting them and selling them because it is not worth it = low supply. In general just a dead market because neither sellers nor buyers cared. Now sigils super useful = high demand => prices skyrocket => supply will become bigger => prices will go down eventually.

 

This could take longer than expected though because the supply is being bought up by rich people then sold at much higher prices. If it takes too long to farm them, then the prices are going to be messed up for a long while.

 

This is also why many people didn't like this decision by Anet. When you take an item that was useless and make it super useful. People already with tons of gold are going to buy all the supply and inflate the prices therefore breaking the market for a long while.

[Kururu.8140]

So you're saying that based on how many people finished a collection that's under a week old that must mean the game is dead. Seriously?

[Klipso.8653]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > @"Klipso.8653" said:

> > Are you talking about the sigil you get for personal story? Every character on every account can access that one

>

> I am talking about sigil of nullification.

>

> > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > You're making the mistake of assuming that every available sigil is already in the game (and on the TP) which is not the case. They can be salvaged from several weapons which are still available as drops - which means new ones enter the game all the time, the supply is basically infinite. Slow compared to current demand maybe, but still infinite unless for some reason Anet removes all sources of new sigils which seems unlikely. And the current demand won't last, so those who are unwilling or unable to pay the current price can wait until it settles down.

> >

> > Besides which it wouldn't surprise me if speculators bought up large numbers of sigils as soon as they heard they were required for the new armour set and they're slowly selling them back at the inflated price - meaning at least some of the current drop in availability is artificial and definitely won't last beyond them being the latest 'must have' thing.

> >

> > Edit: Also I suspect part of the reason it took many months for those 20k that were on the TP to accumulate is because before the last update they were selling for the minimum price, and a lot of people simply don't bother to list runes and sigils if they've hit the minimum because it's not worth the hassle - you spend months waiting for them to sell and only get back what you would have gotten from a merchant anyway. So during that time a large number of the ones entering the game were being deleted almost as quickly. Now they're worth more there will be more of an incentive for people to sell them (or use them, which comes to the same thing because then they don't need to buy one).

>

> It took almost a year for the supply in the trading post to grow from 5k to 20k sigils. Even if many people sold them to vendors or threw them away and did not list them on the tp (would be worse because there would be even less available sigils right now), even if those 20k sigils would accumulate every month (that means 10 times faster than during the last year)... that would be 800 people per month. So after 15 years 10% of the playerbase would be able to finish that armor??? Just lol. And i think you vastly overestimate the droprate of the exo weapons with said sigil. The extra sigils available through weapons (btw the only source for those sigils apart of lvl 64 reward) right now is laughable small. You can simply check some numbers on gw2 spidy or many others trading post sites on how many there were before the spike.

 

Then yes, that sigil is a guaranteed reward for leveling up a character, every character on your account has access to it.

[Danikat.8537]

That's a good point actually - if you're one of those people who has far more Tomes of Knowledge than you know what to do with now could be a good time to use them. Get a character to level 64, get the sigil, sell it, delete the character and repeat. It'd be boring but relatively quick and some of the other level up rewards can be useful or profitable too (I believe it's now the only source of karma boosters, which always come in useful during Wintersday).

[Ferus.3165]

> @"Klipso.8653" said:

> Then yes, that sigil is a guaranteed reward for leveling up a character, every character on your account has access to it.

 

Then whatever was your point is, it is not relevant to this discussion :D. Because every character in this game has access to every sigil one way or another xD

 

> @"Kururu.8140" said:

> So you're saying that based on how many people finished a collection that's under a week old that must mean the game is dead. Seriously?

 

No. I say that there are by far not enough sigils available in the entire game (no matter the price) for even a tiny amount of the playerbase to finish their elegy/requiem armor collections.

 

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> That's a good point actually - if you're one of those people who has far more Tomes of Knowledge than you know what to do with now could be a good time to use them. Get a character to level 64, get the sigil, sell it, delete the character and repeat. It'd be boring but relatively quick and some of the other level up rewards can be useful or profitable too (I believe it's now the only source of karma boosters, which always come in useful during Wintersday).

 

Yeah some pvp/wvw players prob have a lot of them. Too bad that longtime (6+ tok stacks) pvp and/or wvw players are also a small minority in this game.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

The more people talk about how bad this is, the more people will panic and be willing to spend 5-6g for each of 25 sigils. Like any novelty effect, this will die down once people stop rushing to finish.

 

Most people would have vendored the sigils because they weren't worth more than vendor + TP fees, so it's meaningless to look at how long the supply _on the TP_ took to accumulate. Further, there are lots of sigils entering the game through the silverwastes, as they drop on weapons available through its version of champ bags. There's also sigils from generic loot.

 

As a group, we players think the TP somehow reflects the supply inside the game; it doesn't. It reflects the supply that people are willing to trade for money. 25k is a matter of a few hundred people hoarding a few hundred sigils each.

 

 

****

As a reminder, this is part of what is clearly meant to be an epic scavenger hunt to unlock 2 complete sets of armor (with variations for light|medium|heavy and each race). There are unique aspects of the armor, some of them requested by many people for ages. When it's all done, these are unlocked permanently in the wardrobe, so these are all one time costs, not ongoing ones.

 

Most people don't need to try to complete these collections in a week, let alone this week. Lots of people are going to struggle more with accumulating enough mistronium to finish, than coming up with enough gold to acquire sigils.