An in game DPS meter from Anet

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Leinhart.2981" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

> >

> > I agree, I don't understand why we can't check at our personal DPS. As I said before, I'm only interested in my own DPS since It's the best way to judge our skills and just improve. It would be fantastic to have the opportunity to check at our DPS without being forced to install an add on we're not interested in.

>

> You can do that in the special forces training area mate.

 

Except fighting a golem that doesn't fight back with all / no boons is hardly representative of what it's like to fight in a fractal against bosses with phases, where you have to dodge out of something / into something, all of which affects your rotation and ultimately DPS. A build that generates more DPS on a Golem for example might yield less DPS in actual game content.

 

A perfect example of this is Core Guard which I play. If I can keep Aegis up I do 20% more damage, and since the golem doesn't hit me, my Aegis uptime is 100% and I don't have to use any abilities to re-apply it. But in a T4 fractal, keeping that 20% damage buff is a real challenge, requiring good positioning, dodging, and the use of abilities to re-apply Aegis. I still much prefer Core Guard over DH, but my point being what I can do against a golem is vastly different than what I can do against Arkk or The Voice for example.

[phokus.8934]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > The official stance is and has been very clear for quite some time now.

> >

> > From /[u/ChrisCleary](https://www.reddit.com/u/ChrisCleary):

> >

> > > [in Feb 2017, Chris Cleary wrote](

)

> > > We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement.

> >

> > > (...memory reading DPS readers are OK as long as they are only parsing combat data). Combat data is defined as any information that is created due to the usage of skills or impact on players due to skill usage (by the player/s or an outside source).

> > > These statements are particularly targeted at a "DPS Meter" or functionality built around the capture of combat data. Features outside of that most likely fall under "Quality of Life" changes and should be removed from DPS meters if they want to be considered compliant with our rules.

> >

> > ****

> > > [And later on, in the same thread, he wrote](

)

> > > We engaged in significant internal discussion about DPS meters even before we launched raids. Our discussions initially revolved around what we were going to do, but ultimately we wanted to see where the community was going.

> > >

> > > We were not absolutely clear on our stance in relation to DPS meters because the ways they would be used (or potentially abused) was still evolving. In such a case, where we have not made a definitive statement yet are continuing to discuss internally, we did not want to take action against players until we have made our stance clear.

> > >

> > > Now that we have set the bar and tool creators know what is acceptable, we are hoping that tool creators will make adjustments to their tools to make them compliant with our requirements and more accessible to a wider audience.

> >

> > > We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them.

> >

> >

>

> Uhm yeah, very clear ... When people ask a yes/no question and you make it an essay question, nothing is ‘clear’ at all.

 

It’s in his first sentence. Can’t get any clearer than that. And he goes on to explain their thought process around third party apps which is informative.

 

[Tails.9372]

I'd love to see an in game DPS meter, if we ever get one I'd like it to have these 4 functions:

 

- my current DPS

 

- damage dealt (in both % and number) and average DPS vs. the last killed boss type enemy (champion or higher)

 

- a ranking for said boss with damage in % shown for every participating player (but with you being the only one who gets mentioned by name), as in:

 

[insert boss name], time to kill:

 

Number of participans:

 

First place: 13%

Second place: [insert player name here] 8%

Third place: 5%

...

 

- A personal record funktion vs. unique bosses like Amala or Tequatl (e.g. highest average DPS / shortest time to kill + the class you used for the fight).

[sigur.9453]

> @"Leinhart.2981" said:

> Hello,

> First of all, I'm sorry if the topic has already been discussed before!

it has....

>

 

> I would like to have a CLEAR answer from Anet about their opinion concerning ARC DPS. I never installed it because their position isn't clear. Is this thing clearly allowed or not?

>

it is

> And why don't you add a personal DPS meter IG? I'm not interested in the other players' DPS, only mine, because I want to improve my own skills, not to judge my teammates.

>

would be nice, but if you have no other dps to compare your dps with whats the the deal?

> The current system is in my opinion insane for the community, especially in raid mode. If you want my opinion, it would be a good idea to just add a "my DPS" tool in game, and to add a "show the party my DPS" possibility or something like that. This way, the ones who want to compare their E pen*s can compare with their mates, and the ones who just want to see their own performances can do it aswell. Of course, the ones not interested in such a device just don't use it.

>

 

"cairn 250Li +, dps meter or kick" your idea hasn´t been thought trough realy

 

> You have to admit, the DPS optimization is now a part of your game, mostly in raids and T4 fractals, but even in WvW. It would be fair for everyone to clarify the situation and to deal with the cancer some can live in raids. I know, it's frustrating to play with bad players, but some are just not that bad. Still, if some cancer players judge that their mates are unable to reach a certain amount of damages, they just kick them.

>

i am happy that i am in good health, others are not, so maybe you should bring your wording into question.

 

> The community is the best of any MMO in my opinion. Unfortunately, a bad management of the DPS meter can ruin the experience of many players and divide them. Some, by elitism, think they are above the others and have a bad behaviour, some others just want to play for fun and are kicked because they're unable to reach the "needed threshold" or judged, just because they don't practice as much as the first category or anything else.

>

i also play for fun, who would have guessed, but fun is very hard to argue about, since everyone defines it in another way. i kick/leave players that interfere with MY fun.

double standards.

 

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

I am not a fan of DPS meters and don't do any competitive game play to warrant one either; however, having one that shows my own DPS rated against the average DPS on the map would be insightful.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> Uhm yeah, very clear ... When people ask a yes/no question and you make it an essay question, nothing is ‘clear’ at all.

 

Yes, quite clear. "We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client." — the first sentence.

 

I included the full context of the response because people also ask follow-up questions after, "is ANet okay with 3rd party DPS meters." I also chose to avoid posting my interpretation so that players (including yourself) could draw their own conclusions. There's more nuance to the situation than the simplistic question allowed for, so I think it's better that everyone have the full text, rather than being misled by someone's simple answer.

 

****

For those who want things broken down:

* **Is ANet okay with 3rd party DPS meters?** Yes, they are, as long as they only show data that is already available the player through the game (directly or imputed).

* **Is ANet okay with [insert specific DPS meter?** No, not unless they have specifically said so. There are guidelines that have to be followed that will disallow some, including one that offered features well beyond the scope of "DPS meter." (And, at present, only one DPS meter has that "green light.")

 

They have been more ambiguous about whether they have any plans about creating an in-game DPS meter. The responses have boiled down to:

* They want to see where the community takes this.

* It isn't a high priority because there are existing tools, and they'd rather focus on things that don't have 3rd party solutions.

 

The first is a direct paraphrase. The second is partly interpretation, because they apparently don't want to tie themselves down to a simple answer. That's consistent with the approach they take with a lot of requests: they say nothing, they say something ambiguous, or they say "nope, no chance in the foreseeable future." They no longer say if they are working on something unless (a) they want our feedback early (e.g. with WvW World Reformation) or (b) it will be live very soon (e.g. they didn't start mentioning Sun's Refuge until a week before it went live, e.g. the closest the came on the arrival of a new raid wing was, "when the next story launches).

[Biff.5312]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

>

> Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

>

> It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

 

But he's talking about a personal one - one where only you see only your stats. I guess the raid commander could ASK everyone what their dps is, but people could then lie about it so it wouldn't be a very useful way of kicking people.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

> >

> > Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

> >

> > It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

>

> But he's talking about a personal one - one where only you see only your stats. I guess the raid commander could ASK everyone what their dps is, but people could then lie about it so it wouldn't be a very useful way of kicking people.

 

Ive had 4 raid commanders ask people to screen shot their LI, kill proof, and armor. You'd get kicked if you did not meet LI requirements, the [sC] meta, or you failed to provide a screen shot.

[sorudo.9054]

i don't raid because of this fact, why play a game for fun when you can't play what you want at all because some ridicules requirement.

better yet, if a game mode NEEDS a dps meter to be successful something is wrong with the game mode, not the players lacking the dps.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

> > >

> > > Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

> > >

> > > It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

> >

> > But he's talking about a personal one - one where only you see only your stats. I guess the raid commander could ASK everyone what their dps is, but people could then lie about it so it wouldn't be a very useful way of kicking people.

>

> Ive had 4 raid commanders ask people to screen shot their LI, kill proof, and armor. You'd get kicked if you did not meet LI requirements, the [sC] meta, or you failed to provide a screen shot.

 

Not having a personal DPS meter won't change that.

If you're not capable of producing sufficient DPS, then you probably also don't have the required LI or meta build, so having to post DPS numbers would be the least of your problems.

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

> > > >

> > > > Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

> > > >

> > > > It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

> > >

> > > But he's talking about a personal one - one where only you see only your stats. I guess the raid commander could ASK everyone what their dps is, but people could then lie about it so it wouldn't be a very useful way of kicking people.

> >

> > Ive had 4 raid commanders ask people to screen shot their LI, kill proof, and armor. You'd get kicked if you did not meet LI requirements, the [sC] meta, or you failed to provide a screen shot.

>

> Not having a personal DPS meter won't change that.

> If you're not capable of producing sufficient DPS, then you probably also don't have the required LI or meta build, so having to post DPS numbers would be the least of your problems.

>

 

Except that the DPS requirements for most raids are not that tight, making this tired excuse lose meaning pretty quickly. Itd be absurd if anet expects you to consistently reach 36k on a mirage or DE, when you need to do other things like evasion, mechanics, and buffer for picking up downed team mates. The only ones I know of that is actually extremely tight is Gorseval (due to the weirdness of updrafts, you need to force every other phase for an easy time) and the chest pieces, because they can tear you apart if you don't deal with them before they can reach the end.

 

 

Then again... Someone with a curly mustache ducked tape to their upper lip thought itd be a brilliant idea to create Chronomancer. And druid in a game whos original selling point was no need of dedicated healers. Then probably had some grabd slam of an ephiphany when they decided to FURTHER shoe horn the healer onto us via damage aura. Cuz thats good game design.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> i don't raid because of this fact, why play a game for fun when you can't play what you want at all because some ridicules requirement.

 

 

You can play the game for fun without a DPS meter.

If, however, you want to tackle more challenging content, then it isn't just _your_ fun; it's also the fun for the other four (fractals/dungeons) or nine (raids) people. It's overall more fun for the entire group when everyone in the group is roughly as effective as any others.

 

> better yet, if a game mode NEEDS a dps meter to be successful something is wrong with the game mode, not the players lacking the dps.

The game mode doesn't really require a DPS meter. It just makes it a lot easier to know if you're doing as well as you can or not. It helps me learn if I'm overly focused on the wrong parts of the fight, if I'm out of position, if I'm not doing as well as I could.

 

By analogy, running a marathon doesn't require that anyone time their speed. But you can imagine that it's a lot easier to get better at it (and more in shape) if you use a speedometer of some sort. And you can also imagine that it's easier to train with people who are already about the same speed as you. My friend who can run 10 minute miles (about average, for successful runners) might spend some time helping me with my 15 minute miles (I can dream, right?), but it's going to get old for them quickly. Plus, they'll want to push themselves to try for 9, if they are in good enough shape, whereas I'm still hoping for 14.7.

 

If you don't want to do challenging group content with people who want to crush the challenge, rather than barely manage, then it's up to you to keep pace however you like. A DPS meter is a great tool to help with that. If it's not your personal cup of tea, as long as you can find another way to "get gud," no one will care. And if you can't, well, it's perfectly fine to stick with the 90% of the game that doesn't mean nine people are depending on your damage or footwork.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> better yet, if a game mode NEEDS a dps meter to be successful something is wrong with the game mode, not the players lacking the dps.

 

Well, given the sheer amount of options available to a player through gear choices, runes, sigils, weapon choices, utility choices, trait choices, and rotations, that a DPS meter would be helpful says a lot of positive things about this game.

 

Compare that to WoW where every player of a particular spec runs the same talents, slots the same gear and gems, and the only thing that differentiates one player from another is their ability to master a rotation.

 

 

 

[Dante.1763]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

>

> Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

>

> It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

 

Except before DPS meters entire classes werent allowed in content. Necros, Rangers, Thiefs, all got denied from content "because they sucked" but nobody really had any proof they did or did not. When DPS meters became a thing, it opened the doors for all classes to take part in content, even though some may be less optimal for said content they can still be ran provided the player is actually pulling their weight, and if it wasnt for DPS meters youd better believe that it would go back to being that way.

 

So while im against 3rd party DPS meters, an ingame DPS meter would be amazing to have.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > I just don't understand why we can't have at least a personal DPS meter. The technology exists in the special forces training room, why can't we see what our DPS is on at least our own characters?

> >

> > Basically because it encourages toxic behavior from raid commanders. If a user no longer has no excuse about not monitoring their dps. You can run into situations where you could just out right be kicked for not maintaining unrealistic expectations.

> >

> > It also prevents DPS boasters. The sort of people who feel it is their duty to always show you their dps... Because apparently people care.

>

> Except before DPS meters entire classes werent allowed in content. Necros, Rangers, Thiefs, all got denied from content "because they sucked" but nobody really had any proof they did or did not. When DPS meters became a thing, it opened the doors for all classes to take part in content, even though some may be less optimal for said content they can still be ran provided the player is actually pulling their weight, and if it wasnt for DPS meters youd better believe that it would go back to being that way.

>

> So while im against 3rd party DPS meters, an ingame DPS meter would be amazing to have.

 

Truuue... I remember that bs all too well.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > better yet, if a game mode NEEDS a dps meter to be successful something is wrong with the game mode, not the players lacking the dps.

>

> Well, given the sheer amount of options available to a player through gear choices, runes, sigils, weapon choices, utility choices, trait choices, and rotations, that a DPS meter would be helpful says a lot of positive things about this game.

>

> Compare that to WoW where every player of a particular spec runs the same talents, slots the same gear and gems, and the only thing that differentiates one player from another is their ability to master a rotation.

>

>

>

 

and compared to the rest of the game, raids are worst of.

i see it this way, when a game mode requires you to do top DPS in order to even stand a chance to compete shows lack of balance, it also shows how downright horrible it's made.

raids are DPS centered, if they remove this dumb down focus and make ppl actually think before they try raids we might get a raid made for all professions and roles, not just blind kill kill kill.

[LaGranse.8652]

All I would want from ANet is an option to not have my damage data be public to party/squad. People can use whatever DPS meter they want however I don't want to be part of it. If people will say "make your combat data public or kick" then fine, I will leave the party/squad.

[Linken.6345]

> @"LaGranse.8652" said:

> All I would want from ANet is an option to not have my damage data be public to party/squad. People can use whatever DPS meter they want however I don't want to be part of it. If people will say "make your combat data public or kick" then fine, I will leave the party/squad.

 

That would be the thing people say unless you do your own group or join chilled runs.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"LaGranse.8652" said:

> All I would want from ANet is an option to not have my damage data be public to party/squad. People can use whatever DPS meter they want however I don't want to be part of it. If people will say "make your combat data public or kick" then fine, I will leave the party/squad.

 

I always prefer "opt in" over "opt out," too.

 

But ANet has doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on their stance: our combat details are _already_ available to anyone who wants it (just inconveniently). Further, according to ANet, it's _their_ data, not ours, so it makes no sense (to them) to worry about privacy concerns: it's their privacy that would be at issue, not ours.

 

I don't agree with their decision, but I accept it's theirs to make: if I want to play their game, then I also have to accept their rules about DPS data.

[Majosea.2487]

No; An in-game dps meter would cause too much chaos for the benefit of a few folks.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Majosea.2487" said:

> No; An in-game dps meter would cause too much chaos for the benefit of a few folks.

 

No, it would not.

DPS meters are already a thing, People are already using them. All this would do was allow everyone to use those DPS meters without installing a third party program, which is a good thing. On top of that those DPS meters are the reason almost every class is allowed in raids so long as the players are halfway decent, without them we would have classes banned from entire sections of content just like the olden days when ranger, necro, and even thief werent wanted for any instance content.

[Susy.7529]

I propose tho opposite: ban every 3rd party dps meters (arc included).

[Leinhart.2981]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Majosea.2487" said:

> > No; An in-game dps meter would cause too much chaos for the benefit of a few folks.

>

> No, it would not.

> DPS meters are already a thing, People are already using them. All this would do was allow everyone to use those DPS meters without installing a third party program, which is a good thing. On top of that those DPS meters are the reason almost every class is allowed in raids so long as the players are halfway decent, without them we would have classes banned from entire sections of content just like the olden days when ranger, necro, and even thief werent wanted for any instance content.

 

I played necro long time ago and I've been banned fron dongeons and fractals A LOT of time just because I was a necro. I couldn't agree more!

[Turin.6921]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> Arc DPS doesn't work for me (no idea why). I'd like an in-game alternative as well.

 

Did you check the troubleshooting section on the website. It might give you a solution.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Leinhart.2981" said:

> The community is the best of any MMO in my opinion. Unfortunately, a bad management of the DPS meter can ruin the experience of many players and divide them. Some, by elitism, think they are above the others and have a bad behaviour, some others just want to play for fun and are kicked because they're unable to reach the "needed threshold" or judged, just because they don't practice as much as the first category or anything else.

 

The issue was never caused by the dps meters themselves. Even the elitism is just a reaction to an underlying problem. The actual problem is partially different mindset and partially vast differences in understanding of the game mechanics. Just last night I played in a fractal party on the lower end of the kp spectrum. They honestly had no idea how the meta tactics work. We had proper composition, but poor support and low dps as a result. Did we clear the fractals? Yes. Did it matter that our dps was low? Also yes. It was a often a struggle and far more stressful than my usual clears. So I'll be looking for higher kp groups next time to spare myself this. Me being more skilled or experienced has nothing to do with this decision. I'm not making it out of arrogance, I'm making it to protect myself.

 

Unfortunately said underlying issue is not something you can change. There will always be players of different mindsets, and of different understanding. Some will be willing to change it, some won't. And those who won't, and don't match yours, you simply shouldn't play with. It's best for both sides. Elitism is just the application of this principle. And dps meters are just a tool to filter out potential conflicts. There have been others, some of them still in use (kp counts for instance).