deadeye needs nerf.

[sneakytails.5629]

I saw a DE just spamming spotters shot (the one the immobilizes you) the other day, he was built tanky. I was Ranger at the time and my Rapid Fire was not even scratching this guy. Since it only costs 3 initiative he was able to do it 4 times, kite a bit (stealth) and then do it some more. I watched this guy kill groups of people multiple times.

 

Its pretty hard to recover from 4+ immobilizes is quick succession, especially without a Shield.

 

That was easily the most annoying DE i have come across. I cant even imagine 2 of them doing that, perm immobilize.

[DemonSeed.3528]

There are builds that do that from before the rework, it was more rampant then when it had the boon remove shot on stealth hit, and also after bootts bad build put out a build for this as well. It was short lasted but you will only see this once in a blue moon, builds specifically built for the immob but they are far and few now. They also need to be kneeling to get the immob off, and they are free food at that time. If he is just spamming kneel rifle 2 that is an indicator of a not so great player, and he has caught people who haven't learnt to deal with this yet, as they are not often in the wild anymore. If he was built tanky then he might have been running a hybrid or condi version.

[sneakytails.5629]

I didn't think it would work either, until I actually saw the person killing packs of enemies with it. It was either a Maguma or Jade Quarry thief as that was the blue matchup for TC at the time. (last week)

 

The ranger build I was running at the time only had one Immobilize break on it, and obviously no Shield or reflect. I know most of the enemies this thief killed were the same as well.

 

Usually a Rapid Fire will down a DE, but the guy ate the whole thing and I barely scratched him.

 

I dont see any reason this would not work really good in groups.

 

I was playing around in the build editor and you can trait for yet another immobile with Panic Strike so that would be 5. Even my Warriors only have 3 immobilize breaks at most.

 

 

[kurogane.9681]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> I saw a DE just spamming spotters shot (the one the immobilizes you) the other day, he was built tanky.

 

My guess would be a condi DE with trailblazer/dire set. I run this build on my DE and has a 100% poison duration. I could take 2 enemies (rarely 3) BUT it depends on classes and enemies' skills. I mostly rely on rifle 2 (kneel) and traps. I usually target range classes and set traps for the other melee classes or try to lure them one by one then put traps on downed players.

 

Mostly I have a hard time dealing with mesmers and SA DEs as both build have good condi cleanse.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Binding shadows in stealth has no audio or skill animation. Everything else in the game has both above from stealth so I dunno why binding shadows is not.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Thief has one job in WvW and that is to eat people who are alone or out of position. WvW ain't balanced for 1v1's anyway.

 

Travel in groups or deal with it.

 

My problem with Deadeye is that it overshadows the rest of the core thief kit, but Elites are supposed to be flat-out better so that's apparently not an argument.

[Traveller.7496]

Fighting against DE's is not fun.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

> They were all dead. The final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point. I released my finger from the trigger.

>And then it was all over. The storm seemed to lose its frenzy. The ragged clouds gave way to the stars above.

>A bit closer to Heaven.

-Max Payne

[Arlette.9684]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > They were all dead. The final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point. I released my finger from the trigger.

> >And then it was all over. The storm seemed to lose its frenzy. The ragged clouds gave way to the stars above.

> >A bit closer to Heaven.

> -Max Payne

 

The quality of writting in that game was something ANet can take ques from.

[geist.4126]

> @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> Thief has one job in WvW and that is to eat people who are alone or out of position. WvW ain't balanced for 1v1's anyway.

>

> Travel in groups or deal with it.

>

> My problem with Deadeye is that it overshadows the rest of the core thief kit, but Elites are supposed to be flat-out better so that's apparently not an argument.

 

Ok, the solution to an overpowered build is "bring your zerg", because the build isn't massively op 1v1 but "designed to dominate 1v1.

Let's buff scourge, Soulbeast and Spellbreaker in that case.

[Burnfall.9573]

**Nothing Changes If The Situation Stays The Same**

 

 

 

[kash.9213]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> I didn't think it would work either, until I actually saw the person killing packs of enemies with it. It was either a Maguma or Jade Quarry thief as that was the blue matchup for TC at the time. (last week)

>

> The ranger build I was running at the time only had one Immobilize break on it, and obviously no Shield or reflect. I know most of the enemies this thief killed were the same as well.

>

> Usually a Rapid Fire will down a DE, but the guy ate the whole thing and I barely scratched him.

>

> I dont see any reason this would not work really good in groups.

>

> I was playing around in the build editor and you can trait for yet another immobile with Panic Strike so that would be 5. Even my Warriors only have 3 immobilize breaks at most.

>

>

 

If they had Panic Strike then luckily for your whole squad of people who bit it to one DE in Kneel that they weren't a perma stealth DE or they might have taken on nearly the whole map before someone thought to nuke the spot they were Kneeling in. Also, if you have a DE on your side, they can take Basilik Venom and Mark that DE and once that DE goes into stealth your DE can BV and then Stolen Item them and the rest can blast him while he's Stoned, I like to Scorpion Wire sometimes right after just to make them burn through their kit.

[SoV.5139]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

 

Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

 

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> **Nothing Changes If The Situation Stays The Same**

>

>

>

>

 

What point were you trying to make in linking this video? That you do too much damage? Nobody is arguing that too many builds can put out too much damage too quickly. But what I did notice from your vid is that you used stealth as a utility / cooldown, and many of the fights you initiated you were plainly visible from the start, in stark contrast to the permastealth DE (which was the reason this thread was started) where you don't see them until it's too late.

 

That's kind of the point: your video shows you fighting other players. Holos, Mirages, Spellbreakers. Sure you practically one shot that poor Necro @ 1:40, but again, nobody is arguing burst isn't too high, and hey, if you're last man of the zerg, you need to watch your back.

 

But all my recently interactions against DEs were completely one sided. They hid in stealth, and by the time I realized I was in a fight I was downed. Zero chance to fight back..and even if I could have, they would have just vanished and either fled or reset until they could gank me again.

 

I have no problem fighting, and losing, to a player like yourself; And since many of the victims in your video are on Anvil Rock, you've probably killed me a few times already. But to be defeated in a fight before even being told you're in a fight is just terrible design, and as has been mentioned many times already, is just not fun.

 

EDIT: omitted to say, loved the vid :)

[Klypto.1703]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

>

> Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

>

 

The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

> >

> > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

> >

>

> The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

 

Tbh though, that is far easier said than done. A lot of poison fields are not reliable enough and de takes SE so it's most likely weakness is removed anyway.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

> > >

> >

> > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

>

> Tbh though, that is far easier said than done. A lot of poison fields are not reliable enough and de takes SE so it's most likely weakness is removed anyway.

 

SE does not remove weakness, weakness is not a damaging condition.

[dani.4398]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

>

> The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

 

Man, the mental gymnastics you guys do in order to keep that broken designed spec in the game. "Just blast for weakness" LOL, are you kidding me? Read what the OG posted, you engage the fight in stealth, you will have 2 dodges, you will have reveal removal, you will have mobility, you most likely will have an energy sigil which instantly gives you 50% endurance back, you'll have the might on dodge food + 40% endurance regeneration. Did you read? And now you're telling me "just blast for weakness" LOL. Deadeye is not unbeatable, but it sure is hard as hell to catch one thanks to it's broken design and WvW mechanics.

 

And thanks to it's broken design, it will either have to be OP or dead. Now let's see, we're close to the 1 year anniversary of PoF, you guys already had your fun. I'm guessing the DE meme will soon die.

[Turk.5460]

> @"dani.4398" said:

> And thanks to it's broken design, it will either have to be OP or dead. Now let's see, we're close to the 1 year anniversary of PoF, you guys already had your fun. I'm guessing the DE meme will soon die.

 

You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

[enkidu.5937]

you cant just nerf braindeadeyes, bad players also need a build to play with, when soulbeast gets boring

[kash.9213]

> @"enkidu.5937" said:

> you cant just nerf braindeadeyes, bad players also need a build to play with, when soulbeast gets boring

 

Deadeye was nerfed out of the gate but in true GW2 forum fashion people at the same time called it a poorly designed elite that was too weak for any game mode but also complained about being Marked and stalked while Malice built up. So, now instead of having to Kneel to stealth, having Cursed Bullet for a stealth skill, having to wait out Malice, and having to Kneel to get Revealed by Deaths Judgment regardless of stealth you get to see Dodgeye's running around. I'd love to go back to original DE, that was a really fun build to play and both versions are fun without much stealth or Shadow Meld. Regardless of your claim that it's for bad players, whatever changes could be made wouldn't satisfy you as most DE players would just figure out how to work with what they have. Without the clear visual of stealth to place blame on, you'd just pick another class with something easy to spot to cry about.

[SoV.5139]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

> >

> > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

> >

>

> The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

 

That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

[kash.9213]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

> > >

> >

> > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

>

> That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

>

> Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

 

I would be fine with Shadow Arts traits being reworked to still aid stealth though less frequently and more for clutch plays, as long as the trait line retained some mitigation, make it out of stealth if we want. I stay out of stealth mostly covering groups and squads while running supply around but I like SA for map travel or for when I crash into zergs and for boon steal.

[Turk.5460]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will.

> > >

> >

> > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

>

> That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

>

> Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

 

Weakness isn't removed by Shadow's Embrace. Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster.

.....

?????

[enkidu.5937]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > you cant just nerf braindeadeyes, bad players also need a build to play with, when soulbeast gets boring

>

> Deadeye was nerfed out of the gate but in true GW2 forum fashion people at the same time called it a poorly designed elite that was too weak for any game mode but also complained about being Marked and stalked while Malice built up. So, now instead of having to Kneel to stealth, having Cursed Bullet for a stealth skill, having to wait out Malice, and having to Kneel to get Revealed by Deaths Judgment regardless of stealth you get to see Dodgeye's running around. I'd love to go back to original DE, that was a really fun build to play and both versions are fun without much stealth or Shadow Meld. Regardless of your claim that it's for bad players, whatever changes could be made wouldn't satisfy you as most DE players would just figure out how to work with what they have. Without the clear visual of stealth to place blame on, you'd just pick another class with something easy to spot to cry about.

 

Just to be clear, Im not saying that all DEs are bad players. But since the beginning, imo its quite obvious that Thief was designed to give bad players the chance to compete on an above average level. Skills are so overloaded with additional features that they just dont need, and just dont fit. A mediocre heal that gives stealth also gets condi cleanse on top, why? The blink gets a return _and_ condi cleanse. The house also gets a heal on top. Dagger storm also gets reflect and stability. Why is DJ unblockable? etc.

 

Good players dont even need most of those features to perform well. Because they can, as you say, work around, and thats totally fine imo. But that should also be given for braindeadeyes victims, i. e. if Dj would be blockable or reflectable. The victim could work around DJ, and not-so-braindeadeyes ofc could work around that block or reflect. But I highly doubt that Anet is interested in making Thief a normal class, imo they made it even more braindead-proof over time.