Can we get a look at all of the stat sets that aren't being used?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > Wasn’t griever meta for the firebrand?

> >

> > Mix of Griever and Viper is meta for Condi Reaper

>

> Do you have a build for this? Genuinely intrigued!

 

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/condition/

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > > Wasn’t griever meta for the firebrand?

> > >

> > > Mix of Griever and Viper is meta for Condi Reaper

> >

> > Do you have a build for this? Genuinely intrigued!

>

> https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/condition/

 

Thank you!

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Kalthea.4326" said:

> And yes, I'm aware that this may cause issue with balancing. But I'm of the opinion that balancing a game around its PvP environment is a /TERRIBLE/ idea. This not only alters builds severely, but PvP is, as many have said, a far different and constantly changing environment. I don't think they should be paired at all. And yes, predictability on mobs can help people dodge incoming damage and whatnot, but that's not exactly a bad thing. Having knowledge of the game world and the enemies you're facing is good, and not only helps you for other enemies of the same type, but lets you introduce other players to what they may have to face.

 

Here is the problem with that line of thought:

 

* Balance a game with both PVP and PVE around PVP = makes PVE feel a bit wonky, but functional.

* Balance a game with both PVP and PVE around PVE = makes PVP utterly useless.

 

And splitting the modes entirely have quite a few other problems:

 

* Double the costs of balancing, as you need two balance teams

* Makes classes play entirely different between modes, making what you learn in one mode useless in another (more so than current)

 

All over, I think it would be a better idea to bring the two closer together, so that everything you learn in one, also applies to the other. This is one reason why I'm really sad about the mob design in GW2, if most mobs used GW2's class'es and weapons for example, they would actually balance and powercreep with us ! ;) but more importantly, learning how to fight against a "Bandit Warrior with sword and warhorn" would also let you learn about fighting against a pvp warrior with sword and warhorn. GW1 did this very well, and might be the one things I miss the most from that game, including having multiple enemies work together with complimentary builds, like Charr Warbands 4-6 randomly selected classes with pre-made builds that often assisted each others.

 

Where in GW2, we have 99% braindead zombies, that shambles toward you, randomly auto-attack, and on a timer does 1-2 other stronger attacks with clear tells so you can dodge. All over, the entire mob AI and build system in GW2 is so abyssal that you don't need defensive stats, you don't even need most of the active and passive defenses available in the game, because honestly most ZOMBIE HORDE games have more engaging and reactive enemies than this. So the only challenge we get tend to be gimmicks, hp-sponges and high damage attacks, and floor-is-lava. And honestly you don't need a combat system balanced around that.

[Zephyria.6103]

I would be interested to see Anet's info on stat set popularity. But ...given the extreme unlikelihood of us getting to see that info I'd be happy if they did a little culling to the stat sets.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Kalthea.4326" said:

> > It might be a good idea to increase the effectiveness of defensive stats a bit to make other stat sets more appealing

>

> Don't think that's the right approach, even though I agree with the idea.

>

> I'd rather see item stats **removed**. They cause all kind of weird design and balance issues. It'd be easier if skills simply did the listed value of an effect, period. We would still have a plethora of customization options via rune effects, sigils, traits, weapons and skills while items could finally become the cosmetics-only thing they factually already are - everyone just goes and copies the optimal stats anyhow.

>

> At the same time, I **do** think combat progresses too quickly **for a MMORPG** (the last part is very important, I like my games fast otherweise). There's no time to chat and socialize during a fight without relying on external voicecomm, and this being a MMORPG, and hence a game centered around socializing, I kinda mind that. It's easy to communicate outside of combat, but during it there's too much going on too quickly and everything is too spammy to keep chatting. Compare the slow casts of EQ1 or even WoW where you could type in a quick line during a Greater Healing Wave cast, np.

>

> But, if stats are removed **without** folding all their power back into the base skills - and I would hope it'd be done that way! - then combat would slow down significantly anyhow. Boon uptime would drop significantly, as would condition durations, crit chances, walking speed, everything. People would have far less HP but also deal far far faaaar lower damage. There would be time to chat.

 

Back to pre hot autoattack meta XD

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"Kalthea.4326" said:

> > > It might be a good idea to increase the effectiveness of defensive stats a bit to make other stat sets more appealing

> >

> > Don't think that's the right approach, even though I agree with the idea.

> >

> > I'd rather see item stats **removed**. They cause all kind of weird design and balance issues. It'd be easier if skills simply did the listed value of an effect, period. We would still have a plethora of customization options via rune effects, sigils, traits, weapons and skills while items could finally become the cosmetics-only thing they factually already are - everyone just goes and copies the optimal stats anyhow.

> >

> > At the same time, I **do** think combat progresses too quickly **for a MMORPG** (the last part is very important, I like my games fast otherweise). There's no time to chat and socialize during a fight without relying on external voicecomm, and this being a MMORPG, and hence a game centered around socializing, I kinda mind that. It's easy to communicate outside of combat, but during it there's too much going on too quickly and everything is too spammy to keep chatting. Compare the slow casts of EQ1 or even WoW where you could type in a quick line during a Greater Healing Wave cast, np.

> >

> > But, if stats are removed **without** folding all their power back into the base skills - and I would hope it'd be done that way! - then combat would slow down significantly anyhow. Boon uptime would drop significantly, as would condition durations, crit chances, walking speed, everything. People would have far less HP but also deal far far faaaar lower damage. There would be time to chat.

>

> Back to pre hot autoattack meta XD

 

Removing all stat gains could also mean that ANet could balance with much less variables, and actually just change the base numbers to the point they want them (likely increase the base damage of most attacks etc). Since they don't have to deal with multiple different stat combinations throwing all numbers out of whack constantly.

 

Honestly I think this idea has merits, but I'd rule against it mostly because of logistics, it's simply too much work compared to what ANet would gain for it at this point. Also, people are used to stats, and it would feel like ANet taking toys away from them, so angry customers. This last would apply even if they also changed all numbers to do 2x the damage of current full zerk, because players react to the perception of losing something, not the actual balance of what they lose towards what they gain.

 

Humans are weird :)

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> Back to pre hot autoattack meta XD

 

If nothing else were done, sure. But the whole point would be to make balancing **easier**, that is, easily adapt skills to a more balanced setup. Values are static, so combat rotations and reactive combat motions can be fully pre-designed by the devs because they know what the relative power of each skill will be.

[sorudo.9054]

IMO they should completely remove the stat system and redesign it, for now they made the system overcomplicated for their own good.

for instance, they made certain stats completely useless or under performing yet make others so enormously powerful it dominates the battlefield.

they can keep on adding more and more stat gear combo's but that doesn't help when the game is completely out of whack, better to do a hard reset so it's easier to balance and easier to keep track.

let's lower the amount of stats with just 4 stats, make them all matter and balance gear in a way that can define your build more clearly.

 

personally, i think the stat system of diablo 3 is a perfectly balance way to do exactly that, each stat improves something for the character and each profession has a strong affinity to one that then the other. (like a necro is powerful with intelligence while a warrior is better with strength)

this might simplify it allot but it also makes balancing the game allot easier, not to mention Anet can now make enemies more or less difficult without a whole charade of balance issues.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"Kalthea.4326" said:

> > And yes, I'm aware that this may cause issue with balancing. But I'm of the opinion that balancing a game around its PvP environment is a /TERRIBLE/ idea. This not only alters builds severely, but PvP is, as many have said, a far different and constantly changing environment. I don't think they should be paired at all. And yes, predictability on mobs can help people dodge incoming damage and whatnot, but that's not exactly a bad thing. Having knowledge of the game world and the enemies you're facing is good, and not only helps you for other enemies of the same type, but lets you introduce other players to what they may have to face.

>

> Here is the problem with that line of thought:

>

> * Balance a game with both PVP and PVE around PVP = makes PVE feel a bit wonky, but functional.

> * Balance a game with both PVP and PVE around PVE = makes PVP utterly useless.

>

> And splitting the modes entirely have quite a few other problems:

>

> * Double the costs of balancing, as you need two balance teams

> * Makes classes play entirely different between modes, making what you learn in one mode useless in another (more so than current)

>

> All over, I think it would be a better idea to bring the two closer together, so that everything you learn in one, also applies to the other. This is one reason why I'm really sad about the mob design in GW2, if most mobs used GW2's class'es and weapons for example, they would actually balance and powercreep with us ! ;) but more importantly, learning how to fight against a "Bandit Warrior with sword and warhorn" would also let you learn about fighting against a pvp warrior with sword and warhorn. GW1 did this very well, and might be the one things I miss the most from that game, including having multiple enemies work together with complimentary builds, like Charr Warbands 4-6 randomly selected classes with pre-made builds that often assisted each others.

>

> Where in GW2, we have 99% braindead zombies, that shambles toward you, randomly auto-attack, and on a timer does 1-2 other stronger attacks with clear tells so you can dodge. All over, the entire mob AI and build system in GW2 is so abyssal that you don't need defensive stats, you don't even need most of the active and passive defenses available in the game, because honestly most ZOMBIE HORDE games have more engaging and reactive enemies than this. So the only challenge we get tend to be gimmicks, hp-sponges and high damage attacks, and floor-is-lava. And honestly you don't need a combat system balanced around that.

 

I agree with everything you said about gw2's pve enemies and design 100%.

 

Even if they just introduced enemies like heart of the mist profession npcs to pve it would go a long way to making pve combat more interesting.

 

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> IMO they should completely remove the stat system and redesign it, for now they made the system overcomplicated for their own good.

> for instance, they made certain stats completely useless or under performing yet make others so enormously powerful it dominates the battlefield.

> they can keep on adding more and more stat gear combo's but that doesn't help when the game is completely out of whack, better to do a hard reset so it's easier to balance and easier to keep track.

> let's lower the amount of stats with just 4 stats, make them all matter and balance gear in a way that can define your build more clearly.

>

> personally, i think the stat system of diablo 3 is a perfectly balance way to do exactly that, each stat improves something for the character and each profession has a strong affinity to one that then the other. (like a necro is powerful with intelligence while a warrior is better with strength)

> this might simplify it allot but it also makes balancing the game allot easier, not to mention Anet can now make enemies more or less difficult without a whole charade of balance issues.

 

Iwould rather remove stats along with leveling exp mechanics is not fun or needed and maybe remove class mechanics and skills put same weapon skills on all classes dont make sence a guardian uses greatsword diffrently than warrior since after all greatsword is still a greatsword

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Zephyria.6103" said:

> I would be interested to see Anet's info on stat set popularity. But ...given the extreme unlikelihood of us getting to see that info I'd be happy if they did a little culling to the stat sets.

 

That's what I was thinking. It'd be really interesting to find out what percentage of characters actually uses each stat combination.

 

I think it'd have to be restricted to level 80 characters, because I suspect below that a lot of people just use whatever they find, and maybe restricted to characters wearing one or two combinations because otherwise it could be hard to tell what someone's actually chosen and what's a level 80 still in mixed gear.

 

But I suspect the results would be surprising for a lot of people. I know it was in my other MMO when they released info on things like which passive buffs were most used - the ones people considered 'meta build' buffs "everyone" used all the time were actually near the bottom of the list. It turned out the most important factor was how easy they were to get and how clear the description was - the vast majority of people were using the ones you're most likely to come across while levelling up, and the ones which provided an obvious benefit (like 10% extra health) - the least used were the hardest to get and the ones which were more unclear, like ones which had a chance to convert the effects of one stat into another. (Of course that means the solution to increasing variety was fairly simple - re-work the descriptions to make them clearer and add more ways to get the obscure ones.)

 

I think there would be more variety in GW2 stat sets, and it would probably be harder to interpret the data without also asking people why they chose what they did. But I would not be at all surprised if a lot of 'useless' combinations are more popular than people on the forum would expect.

 

Unfortunately it's probably not easy even for Anet to get that data. I'm sure they can see what an individual character has equipped, but I don't know if they could extract info on what all characters have equipped in a useful format. And it's highly unlikely they were going to give us that info if they could. Unless of course they were already announcing a re-work and wanted to explain the thinking behind it.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> I'd rather see item stats **removed**. They cause all kind of weird design and balance issues. It'd be easier if skills simply did the listed value of an effect, period. We would still have a plethora of customization options via rune effects, sigils, traits, weapons and skills while items could finally become the cosmetics-only thing they factually already are - everyone just goes and copies the optimal stats anyhow.

 

Yeah, I agree - having stats bound to gear doesn't make sense from a gameplay point of view. I think that, to a certain extent, it keeps the economy going, but I don't think that's a good reason to have it.

 

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> IMO they should completely remove the stat system and redesign it, for now they made the system overcomplicated for their own good.

> for instance, they made certain stats completely useless or under performing yet make others so enormously powerful it dominates the battlefield.

> they can keep on adding more and more stat gear combo's but that doesn't help when the game is completely out of whack, better to do a hard reset so it's easier to balance and easier to keep track.

> let's lower the amount of stats with just 4 stats, make them all matter and balance gear in a way that can define your build more clearly.

>

> personally, i think the stat system of diablo 3 is a perfectly balance way to do exactly that, each stat improves something for the character and each profession has a strong affinity to one that then the other. (like a necro is powerful with intelligence while a warrior is better with strength)

> this might simplify it allot but it also makes balancing the game allot easier, not to mention Anet can now make enemies more or less difficult without a whole charade of balance issues.

 

I do agree that the stat system should be completely redesigned - the current system somehow manages to be both convoluted and simplistic - but I disagree with your alternative proposal. Diablo III has, in my opinion, the worst stat system of any game I've ever played. Each class only benefits from two of the stats - vitality, and whichever is their primary stat - and the other two stats are worthless to them. Added to that, the loot system is designed so that the only gear that drops is gear that boosts precisely the two stats your class needs. The result is that there's only one worthwhile choice of stats per class, and you're never given any opportunity to make stat choices anyway! It might as well have no stat system at all! Plus it suffers significantly more from number bloat than the GW2 system, and that's saying something.

 

Personally I'd prefer a system more like the one in GW1, where stats were profession-specific and primarily scaled certain types of skills.

[Danikat.8537]

GW1's system was also more simplistic than GW2 IMO. There wasn't really any choice of attributes - you picked your 8 skills and then used the attributes which matched them. You did need to consider them when picking skills so you didn't end up needing all of them, but I feel like in GW2 the choices are more independent of each other. Of course you still need skills and attributes which work together, but it's not as simple as 'if you're using this skill then you need this 1 attribute to boost it'.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > I'd rather see item stats **removed**. They cause all kind of weird design and balance issues. It'd be easier if skills simply did the listed value of an effect, period. We would still have a plethora of customization options via rune effects, sigils, traits, weapons and skills while items could finally become the cosmetics-only thing they factually already are - everyone just goes and copies the optimal stats anyhow.

>

> Yeah, I agree - having stats bound to gear doesn't make sense from a gameplay point of view. I think that, to a certain extent, it keeps the economy going, but I don't think that's a good reason to have it.

>

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > IMO they should completely remove the stat system and redesign it, for now they made the system overcomplicated for their own good.

> > for instance, they made certain stats completely useless or under performing yet make others so enormously powerful it dominates the battlefield.

> > they can keep on adding more and more stat gear combo's but that doesn't help when the game is completely out of whack, better to do a hard reset so it's easier to balance and easier to keep track.

> > let's lower the amount of stats with just 4 stats, make them all matter and balance gear in a way that can define your build more clearly.

> >

> > personally, i think the stat system of diablo 3 is a perfectly balance way to do exactly that, each stat improves something for the character and each profession has a strong affinity to one that then the other. (like a necro is powerful with intelligence while a warrior is better with strength)

> > this might simplify it allot but it also makes balancing the game allot easier, not to mention Anet can now make enemies more or less difficult without a whole charade of balance issues.

>

> I do agree that the stat system should be completely redesigned - the current system somehow manages to be both convoluted and simplistic - but I disagree with your alternative proposal. Diablo III has, in my opinion, the worst stat system of any game I've ever played. Each class only benefits from two of the stats - vitality, and whichever is their primary stat - and the other two stats are worthless to them. Added to that, the loot system is designed so that the only gear that drops is gear that boosts precisely the two stats your class needs. The result is that there's only one worthwhile choice of stats per class, and you're never given any opportunity to make stat choices anyway! It might as well have no stat system at all! Plus it suffers significantly more from number bloat than the GW2 system, and that's saying something.

>

> Personally I'd prefer a system more like the one in GW1, where stats were profession-specific and primarily scaled certain types of skills.

 

the GW1 system is already within the specialization system and skills are automatically getting boosted so it would never work, i used the diablo 3 system as an example because it simplifies the system to a point that every single profession can benefit from it.

also, right now we have 2/3 of the stats just being there completely useless, nothing different from what diablo 3 has except in diablo 3 the system actually works and doesn't have useless stats for all professions.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> GW1's system was also more simplistic than GW2 IMO. There wasn't really any choice of attributes - you picked your 8 skills and then used the attributes which matched them. You did need to consider them when picking skills so you didn't end up needing all of them, but I feel like in GW2 the choices are more independent of each other. Of course you still need skills and attributes which work together, but it's not as simple as 'if you're using this skill then you need this 1 attribute to boost it'.

 

If you only pick skills from your primary attribute and one other attribute, then sure, there was only one sensible choice: max out those attributes. If your skill selection was more complicated than that (skills from three or more attributes, or two attributes but neither is your primary one) then you had to make a meaningful choice - but the choice was "how much do I spend on each attribute?" rather than "which attributes do I want to spend points on?" And as you point out, this impacted on which skills you would choose in the first place - there was a cost to choosing skills from a range of attributes.

 

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> the GW1 system is already within the specialization system and skills are automatically getting boosted so it would never work, i used the diablo 3 system as an example because it simplifies the system to a point that every single profession can benefit from it.

> also, right now we have 2/3 of the stats just being there completely useless, nothing different from what diablo 3 has except in diablo 3 the system actually works and doesn't have useless stats for all professions.

 

I don't think that's necessarily a problem - most of the stats in the current system boost the effects of skills as well, e.g. any damaging skills will benefit from your offensive stats, healing skills benefit from healing power, etc. In fact, one of the reasons that vitality and toughness are seen as less desirable is that skills don't get boosted by them.

 

I see what you're getting at with the Diablo III system, and I agree that having a smaller number of stats is preferable - but to me, it feels like there are only two worthwhile stats in Diablo III. The fact that one of those worthwhile stats is called "Intelligence" if you're a Necromancer, "Dexterity" if you're a Monk, etc. is irrelevant - it's primarily a stat that boosts your damage, and if I recall correctly, its secondary effect (which is much less impactful than the damage boost anyway) is some form of passive damage reduction.

[perilisk.1874]

My preference would be to cull stats down to a set of around six, and make each explicitly focused on a particular role.

 

Rather than doing something generic like boost damage or durations, each skill would be associated with a stat (like GW1), and would improve based on the level of that stat.

 

So, a defense stat could make active defenses better (more blocks, longer evade frames, shorter cooldowns, etc), damage stats would boost direct or sustained damage skills, respectively, control stats would improve CCs, etc.

 

[mtpelion.4562]

Unfortunately, the design ship has sailed so any effective idea has no chance of being implemented.

 

If gear was to get an overhaul though, these are the things that should happen:

 

1. All Exotic+ tiers should have 4 stats (i.e. Berserker's would no longer be a possible combination because it only has 3 stats).

2. Stats should be weighted around a 2 primary and 2 secondary stat system (like they are now).

3. All combinations must contain 1 primary offensive and 1 primary defensive stat (i.e. you cannot have Power and Ferocity both as primary stats).

4. Secondary stats can either be both offensive, both defensive, or one of each (the idea is to minimize the damage gap between the most and least offensive sets so that min-maxers will still out DPS everyone else, but everyone else will be close enough that they can get by in Raids/Fractals even with the least ideal set).

 

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > GW1's system was also more simplistic than GW2 IMO. There wasn't really any choice of attributes - you picked your 8 skills and then used the attributes which matched them. You did need to consider them when picking skills so you didn't end up needing all of them, but I feel like in GW2 the choices are more independent of each other. Of course you still need skills and attributes which work together, but it's not as simple as 'if you're using this skill then you need this 1 attribute to boost it'.

>

> If you only pick skills from your primary attribute and one other attribute, then sure, there was only one sensible choice: max out those attributes. If your skill selection was more complicated than that (skills from three or more attributes, or two attributes but neither is your primary one) then you had to make a meaningful choice - but the choice was "how much do I spend on each attribute?" rather than "which attributes do I want to spend points on?" And as you point out, this impacted on which skills you would choose in the first place - there was a cost to choosing skills from a range of attributes.

>

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > the GW1 system is already within the specialization system and skills are automatically getting boosted so it would never work, i used the diablo 3 system as an example because it simplifies the system to a point that every single profession can benefit from it.

> > also, right now we have 2/3 of the stats just being there completely useless, nothing different from what diablo 3 has except in diablo 3 the system actually works and doesn't have useless stats for all professions.

>

> I don't think that's necessarily a problem - most of the stats in the current system boost the effects of skills as well, e.g. any damaging skills will benefit from your offensive stats, healing skills benefit from healing power, etc. In fact, one of the reasons that vitality and toughness are seen as less desirable is that skills don't get boosted by them.

>

> I see what you're getting at with the Diablo III system, and I agree that having a smaller number of stats is preferable - but to me, it feels like there are only two worthwhile stats in Diablo III. The fact that one of those worthwhile stats is called "Intelligence" if you're a Necromancer, "Dexterity" if you're a Monk, etc. is irrelevant - it's primarily a stat that boosts your damage, and if I recall correctly, its secondary effect (which is much less impactful than the damage boost anyway) is some form of passive damage reduction.

 

like i said, i used diablo 3 as an example, more to the fact that every single stat is used properly.

i do agree that in GW2 we need more then 2 stats per class, every class needs to be able to make their role important so one stat isn't all dominating while others are fallen in to nothing.

 

i would like to play the toughness tank while the DPS nukes, this doesn't just need a change of stats (like fusing some in one or completely changing the system) but enemies needs to require certain roles to compete.

like an enemy that doesn't have as much health but kills really quickly, a tank that can absorb allot of damage would keep the enemy from killing the DPS.

raids are now build around nuking the hell out of enemy bosses, what if that given boss can kill anyone who doesn't have any kind of toughness, one that can make it really difficult for any team that doesn't even have one single tank.

you might think that it would stop players from getting the proper players but how is that any different from what we have now, all this does is it allows more kinds of players.

 

but yeah, stats....

[Opopanax.1803]

On a related note, I'd like to see some sort of boon support stats available through laurel vendors. Specifically, I'd like to see givers trinket slots added to the laurel vendors for ascended gear.

[Rauderi.8706]

The whole stat system and crafting needs a redesign from the ground up.

Too many stats, stat *sets* are static, leaving us to wait for combinations rather than being able to create them ourselves.

[Reverielle.3972]

I think it's fine the way it is.

[Kalthea.4326]

A lot of interesting ideas going back and forth in here.

 

As far as I'm aware, the "stat" system in GW1 didn't matter. You could buy a full set of vendor armor at level 20 and it would still be usable at the end-game as long as you slotted the proper runes for your skill set. That's the biggest difference between GW1 and GW2. GW2 is trying to compensate for its lack of skill sets by tossing in armor sets that supposedly alter your way of playing. This isn't how it has worked out, however. Instead, it turns out that these stats over here suck, and these ones are the only ones that matter at all, so why bother with the other ones?

 

It'd be interesting to remove all of the stats on armor and see what would happen. How would players react, and how would this change balancing and gameplay? Would it bring out more builds? Would it destroy metas, and drive people away?

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Kalthea.4326" said:

> A lot of interesting ideas going back and forth in here.

>

> As far as I'm aware, the "stat" system in GW1 didn't matter. You could buy a full set of vendor armor at level 20 and it would still be usable at the end-game as long as you slotted the proper runes for your skill set. That's the biggest difference between GW1 and GW2. GW2 is trying to compensate for its lack of skill sets by tossing in armor sets that supposedly alter your way of playing. This isn't how it has worked out, however. Instead, it turns out that these stats over here suck, and these ones are the only ones that matter at all, so why bother with the other ones?

>

> It'd be interesting to remove all of the stats on armor and see what would happen. How would players react, and how would this change balancing and gameplay? Would it bring out more builds? Would it destroy metas, and drive people away?

 

Its not the stats directly that are the problem... its their derivatives, and the heavy skewing toward damage, that drives this situation. Damage is king, and we only ever accept a loss in personal damage when another setup pays higher dividends. Like how no support class in raids has any value unless its generating offensive boons. Or that supports in WvW (ie Firebrand) only have value in that they directly counter incoming damage from enemies. In the very few cases where CCs are important, its always in service of the damage dynamic. Break a bar or do a Task to stop enemy attacks, or expose a burn phase. The only place where this dynamic is at its most mitigated is Conquest in PvP- bunkers to hold cap points, which is really just a build thats resistant to damage.

 

Plus this is further exacerbated by the compound multiplicative nature of bonuses. In GW1, there was a diminishing return, with the highest gains per point cost at less then 8 attribute. This was a trade off between a higher average, or a lower average but higher peak. Consider how Celestial gear nearly broke PvP, and even some classes in Open world, because the spread of points was high enough in each stat to still make a difference. But without that, theres no incentive to not maximize in one area, and try to win by overwhelming damage/defense.

[Einsof.1457]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> My preference would be to cull stats down to a set of around six, and make each explicitly focused on a particular role.

>

> Rather than doing something generic like boost damage or durations, each skill would be associated with a stat (like GW1), and would improve based on the level of that stat.

>

> So, a defense stat could make active defenses better (more blocks, longer evade frames, shorter cooldowns, etc), damage stats would boost direct or sustained damage skills, respectively, control stats would improve CCs, etc.

>

 

Please dear god no

[Einsof.1457]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> On a related note, I'd like to see some sort of boon support stats available through laurel vendors. Specifically, I'd like to see givers trinket slots added to the laurel vendors for ascended gear.

 

wont happen due to gating for free to play players, which is a good thing.