Firebland and stab

[Tehologist.5841]

On scrapper:

 

If switched to tools and hgh in alchemy. Toss elixir b plus bulwark gyro toolbelt skill could keep up 3 stacks of stability almost permanently on 5 people. As well as swiftness retaliation and fury. Would lose boon conversion and some healing though. Also, toss skills are projectile and hard to aim while moving, very small radius.

[Sovereign.1093]

wow those are some fun fights. :)

[Dediggefedde.4961]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> On scrapper:

>

> If switched to tools and hgh in alchemy. Toss elixir b plus bulwark gyro toolbelt skill could keep up 3 stacks of stability almost permanently on 5 people. As well as swiftness retaliation and fury. Would lose boon conversion and some healing though. Also, toss skills are projectile and hard to aim while moving, very small radius.

 

"some healing" means mdf, which is your main healing source.

You could use the new elite-CD reduction in tools&Elixir X + steamlined kits&EG to maximize CC and either become a bunker with rapid-regen+adaptive armor or somewhat bruiser with mass momentum and applied force... But I would drop the healer-equip, go for self-regulated defense, maraudeur and durability rune.

[Maybe something like this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBFpitbBWXBkfhlJji+vz7AX8ZKgAY8DqgIA-j1BEQB+T9HHq8De7P8vHAwGVCCgLAg70BAA-w "Maybe something like this")

However, your damage will be below any other damage class and your boon output except for stability also mostly mediocre. Only thing this build is great at is CC, bunkering and stability-output.

 

My point is, that you have to give up most of the good points of scrapper-zerg builds to just get a decent group stability output with two skills. And even then you suffer from boon corruption. The same problem as with hunters. Long lasting boons will never survive till they run out. Short-CD skills are preferable, even with less output duration or uptime.

 

And that's without the ground-targeting, projectile, not-stunbreaker, small target-area combination of "throw elixir B".

 

Easier access for group-stability for other classes would strongly improve build and class diversity in WvW zergs while probably not affecting other play modes at all...

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> Why dose eng have super speed when it should be an ele thing only?

 

Thats like saying why does thieves have stealth when it should be unique to rangers?

[binidj.5734]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

>

> Nothing about nerfing the FB class i am just pointing out they are the only real support in wvw because the other support classes lack stab support.

 

This is so true! I know there is constant hate for support Scourge on my server because commanders consider that they are taking up support slots that should be given to a FB and not occupying their prescribed role of boon corrupter. Give Scourge (or core necro) a pulsing stab in Marks, Wells or as an additional feature of Transfusion and we might see the pigeon holes broaden out somewhat.

[Tehologist.5841]

> @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> > On scrapper:

> >

> > If switched to tools and hgh in alchemy. Toss elixir b plus bulwark gyro toolbelt skill could keep up 3 stacks of stability almost permanently on 5 people. As well as swiftness retaliation and fury. Would lose boon conversion and some healing though. Also, toss skills are projectile and hard to aim while moving, very small radius.

>

> "some healing" means mdf, which is your main healing source.

> You could use the new elite-CD reduction in tools&Elixir X + steamlined kits&EG to maximize CC and either become a bunker with rapid-regen+adaptive armor or somewhat bruiser with mass momentum and applied force... But I would drop the healer-equip, go for self-regulated defense, maraudeur and durability rune.

> [Maybe something like this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBFpitbBWXBkfhlJji+vz7AX8ZKgAY8DqgIA-j1BEQB+T9HHq8De7P8vHAwGVCCgLAg70BAA-w "Maybe something like this")

I mostly agree with you, where I disagree is scrappers primary role. The healing is strong, however, the condi conversion is engineer's strongest ability. The healing is a bonus, for pushes bulwark gyro tool belt gives about 10 seconds of stab (3 stacks) and AoE projectile block. Bulwark gyro, AoE protection like buff that cannot be stripped or corrupted. Also, super speed and ground targeted 1200 range AoE stun. This requires good communication and being ready for the push or to fall back. Then switch between elixir gun and med kit to heal and convert conditions as needed.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Why dose eng have super speed when it should be an ele thing only?

>

> Thats like saying why does thieves have stealth when it should be unique to rangers?

 

No you missed the point comply a boon should not defin a class and stealth alone dose not def thf as many other classes have stealth and use it. Stab is the same way and it should not be only a FB thing. Even scraper has weak stab support that may need a buff but for sure classes like tempest and druid need something stab support related.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> I mostly agree with you, where I disagree is scrappers primary role. The healing is strong, however, the condi conversion is the engineer's strongest ability. The healing is a bonus [...]

 

Scrapper has the best group sustain healing with enough burst-heal to counter most bombs. 10k/s heal during the whole fight is not uncommon for a healer-build. In our last guild fights, a healscrapper outhealed 20% of the incoming damage in most fights above 1 minute.

If I want to switch to condiclear and CC oriented builds, I use [conversion-holosmith ](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdQQJAsensTBlIjtbBGJDcJjFDDr/G+DHihBgxRfR8c8B+PA-j1BEQBu8EA4P1fYiyvtoEMH7P0G9AA4BAQKgiUGB-w "conversion-holosmith ") with anticorrosion plating, purity of purpose, EG, medikit, and hardlight arena.

 

heal-scrapper's average condi clear (cleanse on 5 per CD) is ~4 conditions/s. With hardlight-arena over 50% heat in addition, you get 6 conditions/s. Plus a higher protection output (shield+overshield). This build also excels scrapper in CC due to holo-5, singularity collapse, shield 1&2, and laser. On top of that, using pack-runes & maroudeur, you land in the top-dps region. Durability runes for better Durability and another group condi cleanse. Group-Superspeed is also better with crystal-configuration zephyr compared to final salvo. The only problem is no real heal output at all.

 

Back on topic:

More group stability for all classes would be nice.

I don't think scrappers will replace firebrands even with compared stability output, because of their controlled boon output.

But if necromancers, revenants and warriors get better access to aoe-stability, firebrands might be able to switch to damage oriented specs and groups can survive without firebrands.

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"binidj.5734" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> >

> > Nothing about nerfing the FB class i am just pointing out they are the only real support in wvw because the other support classes lack stab support.

>

> This is so true! I know there is constant hate for support Scourge on my server because commanders consider that they are taking up support slots that should be given to a FB and not occupying their prescribed role of boon corrupter. Give Scourge (or core necro) a pulsing stab in Marks, Wells or as an additional feature of Transfusion and we might see the pigeon holes broaden out somewhat.

 

The real problem with transfusion is if you get pulled into a bomb while it's pulsing. Then you pull all your downed allies into said bomb and instantly lose the fight =/

[Henry.5713]

I find Support Firebrand to be way more fun than than Support Scourge. Each their own, I guess.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> I find Support Firebrand to be way more fun than than Support Scourge. Each their own, I guess.

 

Well scourge over all is a realty boring class as well ppl tend to play it more for the core necro skills with out the need to jump into DS to do real dmg. All though scourge dps is part of the reason why tempest and druid need stab support as scourge is a support class but it dose some of the best dmg in the game now as well as best boon counter effects.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Although Tempest and Druid could use some stab support (like group stab on CA Form's Glyph of Equality), I think Firebrand also needs a look at so it doesn't eclipse other support specs so much. Right now it feels like a support master-of-all-trades. Personally I think Tome of Courage is an issue in all the utility it offers and needs to be toned down. Both the reflect bubble and AoE pulsing resistance are, in my opinion, fair candidates for adjustment.

[Acyk.9671]

Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

- Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

- Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

- Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

- Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

 

F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

 

[Jski.6180]

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

>

> F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

>

 

Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

[Acyk.9671]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> >

> > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> >

>

> Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

 

Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> > >

> > > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> > >

> >

> > Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

>

> Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

> Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

 

But all support classes need to be viable in all game types or they become a tankly build who dose nothing but keep them self alive. They need to do something for there group more then just healing alone this is what gw2 pvp and pve is now. Stab support is so hard to come by now and its so needed giving tempest and druid support stab (not self stab) would fix a lot of problems in the game of FB stacking and give them a real places in combat.

 

Its not being number 1 support its about bring enofe to be worth spaces in a group and tempest / druid are not worth taking up spaces.

[Acyk.9671]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > > > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > > > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > > > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > > > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> > > >

> > > > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

> >

> > Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

> > Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

>

> But all support classes need to be viable in all game types or they become a tankly build who dose nothing but keep them self alive. They need to do something for there group more then just healing alone this is what gw2 pvp and pve is now. Stab support is so hard to come by now and its so needed giving tempest and druid support stab (not self stab) would fix a lot of problems in the game of FB stacking and give them a real places in combat.

>

> Its not being number 1 support its about bring enofe to be worth spaces in a group and tempest / druid are not worth taking up spaces.

 

Every support does it in a different way and guard's way includes stab. I'm fine with supports not being able to all do the same thing and complementing (?) each others;

I'm all for giving some stab to other support but if you want other support to be on par with FB for stab, you create classes that are better than fb. You don't seem to see the comp improvement regarding guard since PoF came out: 1Fb/grp not 2 guards like it was before.

So only one spec already posses tools close to fb, that's scrapper (as said previously) but if you give him the same stab output + uptime as FB, it will just replace it (cuz better heal/cleanse + superspeed).

Tempest is still used by some gvg guilds but just needs more stab to be able to do the work in large scale. IF you give him sharing stab close to FB, you get a class that has a better sustained heal, 40% prot on a better uptime, more CC, cleanse and unique auras with stab... Go figure.

 

Forget about druid in WvW outside of roaming, can't go melee and bad support anyway. Even before all the nerfs, it was mostly a guild thing where you would take one to serve a purpose (burst heals/ CC/offensive buffs with glyph and rez). Now every other support does those things better and druid would most likely need some kind of ranger rework to be efficient (or make soulbeast interesting for groups).

[Jski.6180]

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > > > > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > > > > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > > > > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > > > > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> > > > >

> > > > > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

> > >

> > > Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

> > > Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

> >

> > But all support classes need to be viable in all game types or they become a tankly build who dose nothing but keep them self alive. They need to do something for there group more then just healing alone this is what gw2 pvp and pve is now. Stab support is so hard to come by now and its so needed giving tempest and druid support stab (not self stab) would fix a lot of problems in the game of FB stacking and give them a real places in combat.

> >

> > Its not being number 1 support its about bring enofe to be worth spaces in a group and tempest / druid are not worth taking up spaces.

>

> Every support does it in a different way and guard's way includes stab. I'm fine with supports not being able to all do the same thing and complementing (?) each others;

> I'm all for giving some stab to other support but if you want other support to be on par with FB for stab, you create classes that are better than fb. You don't seem to see the comp improvement regarding guard since PoF came out: 1Fb/grp not 2 guards like it was before.

> So only one spec already posses tools close to fb, that's scrapper (as said previously) but if you give him the same stab output + uptime as FB, it will just replace it (cuz better heal/cleanse + superspeed).

> Tempest is still used by some gvg guilds but just needs more stab to be able to do the work in large scale. IF you give him sharing stab close to FB, you get a class that has a better sustained heal, 40% prot on a better uptime, more CC, cleanse and unique auras with stab... Go figure.

>

> Forget about druid in WvW outside of roaming, can't go melee and bad support anyway. Even before all the nerfs, it was mostly a guild thing where you would take one to serve a purpose (burst heals/ CC/offensive buffs with glyph and rez). Now every other support does those things better and druid would most likely need some kind of ranger rework to be efficient (or make soulbeast interesting for groups).

 

I am a bit confused do ppl still not understand that the 40% protection is for the tempest self protection not the protection coming from the tempest? If any thing eng now gets the same effect on a non elite line significantly lower on the line.

 

Any way FB has realty good protection up time if they build for it and strong healing as well on-top of adding boons that gives ppl blocks quickness and stab what this is all about. There is nothing FB gives up for this as well. Tempest gives up every thing for any self support or group support or cc or dmg you cant do any of this at the same time on tempest. I know much less about druid but it NEEDS a places in wvw group it should be one of the strongest ranged support in the game.

[Acyk.9671]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > > > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > > > > > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > > > > > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > > > > > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > > > > > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

> > > >

> > > > Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

> > > > Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

> > >

> > > But all support classes need to be viable in all game types or they become a tankly build who dose nothing but keep them self alive. They need to do something for there group more then just healing alone this is what gw2 pvp and pve is now. Stab support is so hard to come by now and its so needed giving tempest and druid support stab (not self stab) would fix a lot of problems in the game of FB stacking and give them a real places in combat.

> > >

> > > Its not being number 1 support its about bring enofe to be worth spaces in a group and tempest / druid are not worth taking up spaces.

> >

> > Every support does it in a different way and guard's way includes stab. I'm fine with supports not being able to all do the same thing and complementing (?) each others;

> > I'm all for giving some stab to other support but if you want other support to be on par with FB for stab, you create classes that are better than fb. You don't seem to see the comp improvement regarding guard since PoF came out: 1Fb/grp not 2 guards like it was before.

> > So only one spec already posses tools close to fb, that's scrapper (as said previously) but if you give him the same stab output + uptime as FB, it will just replace it (cuz better heal/cleanse + superspeed).

> > Tempest is still used by some gvg guilds but just needs more stab to be able to do the work in large scale. IF you give him sharing stab close to FB, you get a class that has a better sustained heal, 40% prot on a better uptime, more CC, cleanse and unique auras with stab... Go figure.

> >

> > Forget about druid in WvW outside of roaming, can't go melee and bad support anyway. Even before all the nerfs, it was mostly a guild thing where you would take one to serve a purpose (burst heals/ CC/offensive buffs with glyph and rez). Now every other support does those things better and druid would most likely need some kind of ranger rework to be efficient (or make soulbeast interesting for groups).

>

> I am a bit confused do ppl still not understand that the 40% protection is for the tempest self protection not the protection coming from the tempest? If any thing eng now gets the same effect on a non elite line significantly lower on the line.

>

> Any way FB has realty good protection up time if they build for it and strong healing as well on-top of adding boons that gives ppl blocks quickness and stab what this is all about. There is nothing FB gives up for this as well. Tempest gives up every thing for any self support or group support or cc or dmg you cant do any of this at the same time on tempest. I know much less about druid but it NEEDS a places in wvw group it should be one of the strongest ranged support in the game.

 

Ah maybe, i don't remember it well.

If FB gives high protection uptime, it can't give quickness (those traits are in competition). Maybe FB does less sacrifice than tempest for support but you are exaggerating, I don't see how you can say that tempest has to make so much sacrifices. You have personal sustain on focus, personal + group in every trait line (eath/water/tempest). It has a lot more access to CC on weapons and the rest is all about right combination of personal/group sustain but that's the case for every class in any game mode... I mean if you want to compare it to fb, you either take virtues or valor and this choice doesn't include dmg because that's not his role... As said previously i agree with more stab, on Rock solid and general utility skills for example. Tempest could use some buff but the truth is it just suffers too much from WoD/scourge.

 

Druid is one if not the best support in PvE and some of those changes made him irrelevant in WvW and PvP but not every spec should be optimal in every gamemode. From a balance perspective that's not feasible...

Power creeping everything is a bad way of balancing so which buff would you give druid to achieve that in WvW?

Celestial avatar is already 10 targets so even if optimal you wouldn't take more than 5 in a 50 man comp anyway and you could give him more stab/heal, wouldn't change the fact that other specs bring way more in term of package (for example lot of support on druid comes from spirit...).

 

EDIT: Anet failed to understand that stab is as important as personal heal skill in WvW but i don't understand why you want every support spec to be optimal in the same way in WvW. Some class need more stab by design but other than that i don't see why they absolutely need to be a possible replacement for FB. I think having different kind of support is better for the game.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > > > > > > Firebrand doesn't eclipse other support spec, that's a false assumption everyone make!

> > > > > > > - Chrono has been meta as 2nd support since HoT came out.

> > > > > > > - Scrapper is also a good 2nd support but lack stab output to compete with firebrand for 1st support role (though it has more cleanse/healing than FB).

> > > > > > > - Tempest mostly suffers from lack of personal stab disabling from playing melee where it's most efficient because WoD + Scourge and FB doesn't pulse enough protection anymore to force tempest out of meta. Could also use a switch of frost aura from dagger OH to MH.

> > > > > > > - Druid: bad heal, ok cleanse, bad boon sharing, 1 stab...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > F3 tome CD could be looked at but if you nerf FB (already has been nerfed quite a lot), you'll end up running 2 in each group as it was before POF. Which is bad because you wouldn't need scrapper and chrono anymore. Scourge and WoD keeps FB in check.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nothing about nerfs only about making other support classes some what on par with FB.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not every support can have a "1st support" kinda role, only Scrapper could with more stab output. If you give chrono more stab, the class will become OP.

> > > > > Tempest could definitely have access to more stab but mostly for personal sustain. Might also need to change cleanse on regen but they already have their fair share of support.

> > > >

> > > > But all support classes need to be viable in all game types or they become a tankly build who dose nothing but keep them self alive. They need to do something for there group more then just healing alone this is what gw2 pvp and pve is now. Stab support is so hard to come by now and its so needed giving tempest and druid support stab (not self stab) would fix a lot of problems in the game of FB stacking and give them a real places in combat.

> > > >

> > > > Its not being number 1 support its about bring enofe to be worth spaces in a group and tempest / druid are not worth taking up spaces.

> > >

> > > Every support does it in a different way and guard's way includes stab. I'm fine with supports not being able to all do the same thing and complementing (?) each others;

> > > I'm all for giving some stab to other support but if you want other support to be on par with FB for stab, you create classes that are better than fb. You don't seem to see the comp improvement regarding guard since PoF came out: 1Fb/grp not 2 guards like it was before.

> > > So only one spec already posses tools close to fb, that's scrapper (as said previously) but if you give him the same stab output + uptime as FB, it will just replace it (cuz better heal/cleanse + superspeed).

> > > Tempest is still used by some gvg guilds but just needs more stab to be able to do the work in large scale. IF you give him sharing stab close to FB, you get a class that has a better sustained heal, 40% prot on a better uptime, more CC, cleanse and unique auras with stab... Go figure.

> > >

> > > Forget about druid in WvW outside of roaming, can't go melee and bad support anyway. Even before all the nerfs, it was mostly a guild thing where you would take one to serve a purpose (burst heals/ CC/offensive buffs with glyph and rez). Now every other support does those things better and druid would most likely need some kind of ranger rework to be efficient (or make soulbeast interesting for groups).

> >

> > I am a bit confused do ppl still not understand that the 40% protection is for the tempest self protection not the protection coming from the tempest? If any thing eng now gets the same effect on a non elite line significantly lower on the line.

> >

> > Any way FB has realty good protection up time if they build for it and strong healing as well on-top of adding boons that gives ppl blocks quickness and stab what this is all about. There is nothing FB gives up for this as well. Tempest gives up every thing for any self support or group support or cc or dmg you cant do any of this at the same time on tempest. I know much less about druid but it NEEDS a places in wvw group it should be one of the strongest ranged support in the game.

>

> Ah maybe, i don't remember it well.

> If FB gives high protection uptime, it can't give quickness (those traits are in competition). Maybe FB does less sacrifice than tempest for support but you are exaggerating, I don't see how you can say that tempest has to make so much sacrifices. You have personal sustain on focus, personal + group in every trait line (eath/water/tempest). It has a lot more access to CC on weapons and the rest is all about right combination of personal/group sustain but that's the case for every class in any game mode... I mean if you want to compare it to fb, you either take virtues or valor and this choice doesn't include dmg because that's not his role... As said previously i agree with more stab, on Rock solid and general utility skills for example. Tempest could use some buff but the truth is it just suffers too much from WoD/scourge.

>

> Druid is one if not the best support in PvE and some of those changes made him irrelevant in WvW and PvP but not every spec should be optimal in every gamemode. From a balance perspective that's not feasible...

> Power creeping everything is a bad way of balancing so which buff would you give druid to achieve that in WvW?

> Celestial avatar is already 10 targets so even if optimal you wouldn't take more than 5 in a 50 man comp anyway and you could give him more stab/heal, wouldn't change the fact that other specs bring way more in term of package (for example lot of support on druid comes from spirit...).

>

> EDIT: Anet failed to understand that stab is as important as personal heal skill in WvW but i don't understand why you want every support spec to be optimal in the same way in WvW. Some class need more stab by design but other than that i don't see why they absolutely need to be a possible replacement for FB. I think having different kind of support is better for the game.

 

Protector's Strike, Shield of Judgment, "Hold the Line!", and Epilogue: Unbroken Lines its a lot of protection up time. It gets Quickness as well from passive effects or active ones. Tempest give up a LOT to support or a LOT to stay alive you cant have both.

 

There needs to be room for other classes to have stab its only power creep if you give that stab support to dps classes.