What's with those core guardians?

[Daishi.6027]

They are fairly easy to play, have safe engagement that can ignore walls with large cleaving bursts that have long hurt boxes. They have a few good 1v1 matchups or are able to pressure that pesky mirage or thief... But they are easy to focus and kill. They thrive with the amount of team fight carry that is currently in the meta, it's not unexpected to see a rise in them with the current changes.

^ I kind of apply this to both Medi DH and Medi Core.

 

They aren't particularity any stronger, it's that other things aren't as overpowering.

They also are in no way imba in terms of conquest, but will probably be around for a bit, so prepare.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> Not going to defend core guard, but they only have one true "one-hit KO" and it has a 4 second tell on it. I agree that they should be nerfed, so I'll list some ideas I like that have been suggested:

>

> * Nerf glacial heart's (hammer trait) damage heavily. Lower the icd from 10s to 5s, make it 100% chance on critical up from 50%. This shifts the focus of the trait from burst damage to chill application allowing a hammer guard to better stay on their target. This is Vallun's idea, and a good one at that.

> * Nerf the extra crit % chance that Righteous Instincts grants from 50% to either 30% or 40%. This means even less sustain from core guard if they want to maintain a high crit % chance.

> * Nerf the damage of Shield of Wrath's explosion to deal around the same damage of Mighty Blow. This would be something like a 10-20% damage nerf. If they did this, I'd want the cooldown lowered as well.

 

Nerfing that crit chance would bench 4 of my guards who aren't core that rely on that trait...

 

How about just sticking to things that only core use such as hammer, that is if people want to nerf a CORE spec just because it competes with elite specs...

 

This community though... "we want build diversity" 》"nerf core spec because its half viable and butcher other builds in the process" 》"we want build diversity"

[Tiah.3091]

I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even fucking allowed in this game?**

And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

 

These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

 

**The question:**

_Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

 

And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

 

**Like... why the fuck not, I don't get it??!**

Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer, that would be affected **negatively** by such change?

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

>

> These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

>

> **The question:**

> _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

>

> And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

>

> **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer?

 

.25s GCD would be really healthy for this game, that's a good idea

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> > And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

> >

> > These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

> >

> > **The question:**

> > _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

> >

> > And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

> >

> > **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> > Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer?

>

> .25s GCD would be really healthy for this game, that's a good idea

 

Whats the point of stun breaks then?

[Math.5123]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> > And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

> >

> > These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

> >

> > **The question:**

> > _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

> >

> > And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

> >

> > **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> > Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer?

>

> .25s GCD would be really healthy for this game, that's a good idea

 

That would do absolutely nothing to the core guard burst. You still wind up shield of wrath and teleport mid mighty blow. Only thing is that smite Condi might be delayed.

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > > I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> > > And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

> > >

> > > These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

> > >

> > > **The question:**

> > > _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

> > >

> > > And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

> > >

> > > **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> > > Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer?

> >

> > .25s GCD would be really healthy for this game, that's a good idea

>

> Whats the point of stun breaks then?

 

Exclude stun breaks from it, none of them are offensive in nature aside from maybe stomp.

 

.25s GCD would stop people from chaining all their instant cast skills together, which would slow down the games pace without compromising skill level.

 

This would neuter FA arcane ele, binding shadow DE (rifle and dagger), mantra mirage, core guard, and static discharge holo. All of which (except ele?) have complaint threads about them in this section

 

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > > I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> > > And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

> > >

> > > These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

> > >

> > > **The question:**

> > > _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

> > >

> > > And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

> > >

> > > **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> > > Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer?

> >

> > .25s GCD would be really healthy for this game, that's a good idea

>

> That would do absolutely nothing to the core guard burst. You still wind up shield of wrath and teleport mid mighty blow. Only thing is that smite Condi might be delayed.

 

It would stop them from popping a virtue mid combo, which stops them getting retaliation unless they prebuff. -50% crit chance and a ton of damage unless they use their heal to get retal, which would leave them very vulnerable

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> Not going to defend core guard, but they only have one true "one-hit KO" and it has a 4 second tell on it. I agree that they should be nerfed, so I'll list some ideas I like that have been suggested:

>

> * Nerf glacial heart's (hammer trait) damage heavily. Lower the icd from 10s to 5s, make it 100% chance on critical up from 50%. This shifts the focus of the trait from burst damage to chill application allowing a hammer guard to better stay on their target. This is Vallun's idea, and a good one at that.

 

Not surprised Vallun would like this idea. Sustained dps is much easier for a thief to escape from than burst dps. Given that core guard is one of the few classes that can counter Thief/Deadeyes.

 

 

[Koto.1824]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> In less than an hour, expect this thread to be flooded with core guard mains, yelling how perfectly balanced the subject is.

 

REEEEEEEEEEEEEE CORE GUARD IS BALANCED

 

 

[Tiah.3091]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Whats the point of stun breaks then?

 

You mean, that you wouldn't be able to use a stunbreak, if you have a GCD from some other source?

Well, they could introduce a conditional GCD removal - if you're disabled, the active GCD on all your stunbreakers is removed.

[Bossun.2046]

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> Buff dragonhunter to stop core guard

>

> ecks dee

 

This please.

 

Core guard shouldn't be able to do a surprise port into a gs5/2 and one shot you. :(

[Abazigal.3679]

With all due respect, that build isn't really good, and most people i saw running it are only fighting and chasing people around map, not capping. It's actually good against certain builds, or when you lacked attention a few seconds and can't remove the stack of burning, but otherwise it's not so OP, and nowhere close to what scourge used to be

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> I never understood one thing: **why oneshot builds are even kitten allowed in this game?**

> And right now I'm speaking specifically of those pseudo-oneshot builds, like mantra mesmer and core hammer guard.

>

> These bad boys usually press N buttons very-very fast, in like 0.2 seconds.

>

> **The question:**

> _Why not simply introduce a global cooldown for every instant cast ability? Say, like, 0.25 seconds?_

>

> And **BOOM** - suddenly you don't need to nerf specific skills from the combo, because they aren't dangerous by themselves.

>

> **Like... why the kitten not, I don't get it??!**

> Please, name me just one build, apart from wombo-combo-macros-oneshot-cheese builds, like Mantra-Mesmer, that would be affected **negatively** by such change?

 

I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes. Mes has auto stealth from torch 4. It can basically one shot u from stealth. The delay won't be a problem because you won't even see it coming. The only way to "play" around is to just be aware of the map and always to see if there's a mesner going puff and dodge a second later. Took me a month or so to finally recongize the timing to avoid it but if u didn't see it. There's basically no way to prevent it.

 

It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly. I made a messmer just to try it and it's as "difficult" as it sounds. It worked more than half the time even though I basically just made it and recharges every 14 seconds.

 

The crazy part is, if it fails it can still knock off half ur hp, It can then just press auto attack. Dmg is some 4k 5k 7k auto auto from range.

 

 

Guess that's just how it is. Just gotta accept if they have changed it for so long. I basically switch to sword dagger thief and go mesmer hunting now the moment I see 2 mesmers on the other team. Just because ur team can basically just lose from being 1 shotted

[Tiah.3091]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

 

> I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

 

How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

 

 

[losingcontrol.1084]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

>

> > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

>

> How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

>

>

 

Since when pressing 4 buttons very quickly is considered skill?

 

Those kind of players just mastered over and over the burst combo, able to land it in one second or so, but this doesn't make them good players, they are just good at landing the burst.

 

That's why mesmer is hated by everyone, because even if the mesmer is not smart or good at the game can still get results because of how forgiving and low is to pull of that combo burst.

 

Combo burst in condi mirage is even more cancerous and lame, power burst is so much easier to avoid with good dodges or blocks, condi burst is another thing that even good players struggle against.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

>

> > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

>

> How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

>

>

 

It doesn't because the chain skill the mesmer uses is precasted. He can precast in stealth all 3 skills. To elaborate. As G2G is flying thru the air. Assuming it's ur .25 seconds. He can still press power lock and blink. Unless u intend to give blink a cast time making a completely useless skill for all mesmer builds.

 

The last skill mind wreck is the only skill he needs to do while next to u. But powerlock causes daze. So have .25 seconds to stun break and dodge.

 

If the first 3 skills hit u are basically are half health. Mesmer auto attack is 4k 5k 7k. Which finishes ur last half health.

 

It's like when they nerfed thief backstab by giving it a 1 second delay but it still works because u pre cast it during steal. So eventually they nerfed backstab damage all together.

 

Then it still worked for thief because auto attack dmg was too high and steal damage was too high. So they nerfed both.

 

In this scenario it's actually exactly the same. Steal being both power lock and blink and backstab being gs2. And auto attack being mind wreck.

 

They basically did your suggestion to the original thief. But instead of .25 its a full second.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"losingcontrol.1084" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> >

> > > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

> >

> > How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> > GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

> >

> >

>

> Since when pressing 4 buttons very quickly is considered skill?

>

> Those kind of players just mastered over and over the burst combo, able to land it in one second or so, but this doesn't make them good players, they are just good at landing the burst.

>

> That's why mesmer is hated by everyone, because even if the mesmer is not smart or good at the game can still get results because of how forgiving and low is to pull of that combo burst.

>

> Combo burst in condi mirage is even more cancerous and lame, power burst is so much easier to avoid with good dodges or blocks, condi burst is another thing that even good players struggle against.

 

I have no idea either. But it looks to be the general trend. Sic em ranger is in a similar fashion. Deadeye 3 round bursts with quickness. Rev combo. Holo cc combo. So it's not just mes. It's just mes can do the entire combo in stealth.

[tinyreborn.1938]

Actually thats hilarious ! After they killed CS trait people still cry about power mesmers... Is that possible?

'Mesmer auto attack is 4k 5k 7k' - actually sounds like guardian mighty blow with different stacks of might ...

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Whats the point of stun breaks then?

>

> You mean, that you wouldn't be able to use a stunbreak, if you have a GCD from some other source?

> Well, they could introduce a conditional GCD removal - if you're disabled, the active GCD on all your stunbreakers is removed.

 

Pretty much yea, changing attunements and get stunned , then trying to cast static aura for heals while also trying to spam lightning flash, Feel the burn and water attunement for frost aura, there's a lot going on there this idea would completely screw with.

[Amaranthe.3578]

As a gold player guards are the most common class I see

[Tiah.3091]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

 

> It doesn't because the chain skill the mesmer uses is precasted. He can precast in stealth all 3 skills. To elaborate. As G2G is flying thru the air. Assuming it's ur .25 seconds. He can still press power lock and blink. Unless u intend to give blink a cast time making a completely useless skill for all mesmer builds.

> The last skill mind wreck is the only skill he needs to do while next to u. But powerlock causes daze. So have .25 seconds to stun break and dodge.

 

Dude... tell, me, are you OK? Because I have serious concerns at this point.

GCD = Global Cooldown. Do you understand the concept?

Not the "Cast Time". Cast Time - is when you press button, the progress bar starts, and only after it finishes, the spell will take an effect.

Global Cooldown - is when you cast a spell (any spell), the cooldown on every other spell starts, so, you can't just chain skills instantly. However, they still may have a 0 casting time, like Blink, or Mantra.

 

**Global Cooldown, basically, prevents you from Blinking towards the enemy in the same instant, after you pressed Mantra's Power Block.**

 

Now, to elaborate:

You precast GS2 from stealth. 0.25s cooldown starts. The projectile flies. I'm not really sure how fast it is, but let's say it takes longer, than 0.25s, for it to traverse 1200 units.

Then, as your 2nd spell, you can cat either Blink or Mantra.

1) If you cast Blink, then the 0.25s cooldown starts, and by then your projectile from GS2 should hit, and you'll be de-cloaked. Which would give the target a time to react.

2) If you cast Mantra, then 0.25s cooldown starts, before you can Blink. Now the target is dazed and it can expect, that something is coming.

Now, we casted GS2, mantra and Blink. And then WE STILL have to wait 0.25s for Shatter. And the target by now is kinda aware, that we're here and wanna do the burst.

 

Right now the WHOLE burst happens in less than 0.1 seconds. Without any tells, if you start from stealth.

 

> Mesmer auto attack is 4k 5k 7k. Which finishes ur last half health.

This is absurd. From Sword-1 the auto is a chain, which hits for 1.2k + 1.2k + 2k on average (with crits, ofc). May be 2+2+3.5, assuming high stacks of vuln and might. Last attack of the chain hits for 5-7k ONLY if target doesn't have ANY buffs. Which pretty much never happens in the real game.

I wonder, what's next? Mesmer's auto oneshots you and murders your entire family?

 

[Biff.5312]

I play a core guard only because I haven't yet gone into the elite specs and because I find it comfortable. It's very common for me to score 'top damage', but that may easily speak more to how good my opponents are than anything unusual happening. There are several matchups that I find unfavorable, but again I attribute most of my victories to a mismatch of play skill. I'm sure that there are better players who would destroy me with any class.

[otto.5684]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

>

> > I agree with all the changes u suggest but it won't effect one shot mes.

> > It's pretty ridiculous, all the mesmers will tell u it takes skills to pull it off because you have to press such n such but all it really is, is pressing 4 buttons very quickly.

>

> How exactly "it won't affect mes oneshot", if mes oneshot is explicitly caused by "presssing 4 buttons very quickly"? And the GCD prevents you from pressing those buttons faster, than once per certain interval?

> GS2 forces a GCD, then mantra forces a GCD, then another mantra forces a GCD. Which means it would take at the very least 0.75 seconds for a full burst. Which is MUCH more manageable, than the current 0.1s.

>

>

 

There is a misunderstanding of one shot is. It usually does not mean being literal (and I honestly prefer in under 1 sec). The ideas is we do not want any build capable to dishing 15-20k damage in under 1 sec, regardless of the setup, cuz the setup is not always oblivious and much of the time is not interuptable.

[kipthelip.5802]

Core Guardian is in an ok spot. Its not the best and its not the worst. I like it because the GS/sword build is pretty good against popular nuisance classes like Mesmer and thief. Conversely its weak against stuff like Holo and Speall Breaker. It does put out a lot of damage but that is countered by very limited stability. My duels versus Holos and Spell Breakers are pretty comical if I don't dodge or use my 4 seconds of stability at the right time. :( Also, you pay a lot for speed on core guardian the movement skills it has are for chasing not running away and you have to use a 25% run speed rune and they are all mediocre. Its much harder to disengage from a minus situation or a duel gone bad then some other classes.

[Indure.5410]

I don't think core guardian is the problem, but Anet's decision to completely control guardian's PVP balance solely through trait lines. You see a lot of core guardians because you increasingly need Virtues/Valor/Radiance to be effective. Valor gives you great utilities and survival, Radiance allows you to pick up Valkyrie Amulet and Virtues gives you the extra utility you need.