Raids in 2k18 became farm fiesta. Remove rewards from the old wings finally. And fix it, please

[Xar.1387]

Anyway i dont care how much populated is any game mode tbh. Less or more. Raids / PvP / WvW etc, etc. Each of them is unique. And every brings different people to the game. Which makes MMO game bigger. And more popular. In a whole. Until those modes are ingame, ArenaNet should support every of them. And trying to bring as much new people interested in those modes as they can. Bring Raiders. PvPers. And people which like Mass-PvP. Instead of making veterans leave to the other games which support those modes more.

 

As other games shows, every of this game mode is able to bring ALOT of ppl. But it requires alot of work and support.

 

While right now many people says "its not PvP game", "its not Raiding game", "its not WvW game".

And this argument is constantly being repeated. But it surely wont make this game better at all. Just worse. Cause GW2 wont be about anything then.

Writing something like that surely wont push developers to support those modes more.

 

 

[phs.6089]

> @"Xar.1387" said:

> Anyway i dont care how much populated is any game mode tbh. Less or more. Raids / PvP / WvW etc, etc. Each of them is unique. And every brings different people to the game. Which makes MMO game bigger. And more popular. Until those modes are ingame, ArenaNet should support every of them. And trying to bring as much new people interested in those modes as they can. Bring Raiders. PvPers. And people which like Mass-PvP. Instead of making veterans leave to the other games which support those modes more.

>

> As other games shows, every of this game mode is able to bring ALOT of ppl. But it requires alot of work and support.

>

> While right now many people says "its not PvP game", "its not Raiding game", "its not WvW game".

> And this argument is constantly being repeated. But it surely wont make this game better at all. Just worse. Cause GW2 wont be about anything then

>

>

 

You are missing the point. GW2 is about the Story. People buy expacs for the story, new maps, rest such as espec, raids etc are bonus content to most of the GW2 players.

Frankly most of those players don't spend time on forums arguing about things, they play the game. And as far as they do, play, come back for another episode. Arena.NET knows they doing their job right.

[Linken.6345]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > The main issue with and PVP and WVW is exactly this... they are **core** game modes that you can play without ever buying an expansion. I believe that's one of the main reasons those game modes have been mostly neglected, they cannot be monetized. And no, Elite Specs aren't "enough", you can play the game modes without using elite specs, yes you will be at a disadvantage, but you won't be blocked from participating. You can even play the game modes as a free player.

> > > >

> > > > What's a bit puzzling is the amount of effort put into Fractals, which are also core content that is not monetized, and certainly get way more attention than PVP/WVW.

> > >

> > > But for high level fractals you need agony. And without expansion you dont gave masteries (so no singularity and no atuned/infused equipment) so you lose 5 out of 18 infusion slots.

> >

> > You need the mastery to get infused equipment? Infused gear pre-dates expansions so I find it weird, I had loads of infused items long before Heart of Thorns was even released. Attuned yes, you can't get that without the mastery. Even without the mastery, you can get maximum AR, but it will be more expensive. Of course you'll lose the extra rewards from the mastery but you will be missing rewards in PVP/WVW as well, you can't access the reward tracks of expansions without having the appropriate expansion for example. Yes you will be at a disadvantage without expansions, but you can at least access the content, this isn't true for Raids for example, each expansion has its own set of Wings.

>

> You are right. But you cannot use infusion golem so you have to buy infusions from TP. And if you are f2p i think you cannot do that.

 

You do know you can craft them yourself useing an artificer right?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > The main issue with and PVP and WVW is exactly this... they are **core** game modes that you can play without ever buying an expansion. I believe that's one of the main reasons those game modes have been mostly neglected, they cannot be monetized. And no, Elite Specs aren't "enough", you can play the game modes without using elite specs, yes you will be at a disadvantage, but you won't be blocked from participating. You can even play the game modes as a free player.

> > > > >

> > > > > What's a bit puzzling is the amount of effort put into Fractals, which are also core content that is not monetized, and certainly get way more attention than PVP/WVW.

> > > >

> > > > But for high level fractals you need agony. And without expansion you dont gave masteries (so no singularity and no atuned/infused equipment) so you lose 5 out of 18 infusion slots.

> > >

> > > You need the mastery to get infused equipment? Infused gear pre-dates expansions so I find it weird, I had loads of infused items long before Heart of Thorns was even released. Attuned yes, you can't get that without the mastery. Even without the mastery, you can get maximum AR, but it will be more expensive. Of course you'll lose the extra rewards from the mastery but you will be missing rewards in PVP/WVW as well, you can't access the reward tracks of expansions without having the appropriate expansion for example. Yes you will be at a disadvantage without expansions, but you can at least access the content, this isn't true for Raids for example, each expansion has its own set of Wings.

> >

> > You are right. But you cannot use infusion golem so you have to buy infusions from TP. And if you are f2p i think you cannot do that.

>

> You do know you can craft them yourself useing an artificer right?

 

To be fair I never have to search for what is and isnt part of the expansions and f2p

[Ceit.7619]

Everything in a game can become a 'farm fiesta', whatever that means. Raid content is meant to be farmed. If it was meant to be one and done, it would be like a living story episode, and it wouldn't have unique drops that you need to kill the boss a hundred times in order to get it. The nature of guild raid decorations, LI, randomized loot drops with unique skins available, all suggest that the intention is for raids to be farmed. Removing old rewards would just be a foolish move, especially when there is already incentive to playing newer wings. New boss proofs, new ascended skins, achievements, and then the types of players who just want to progress through the content (like yourself).

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

There is a model in the game for the idea of reducing spread will force more players into the same narrowed content: dynamic mega-servers. One problem was that with static servers players were being distributed across too many empty maps so that they subjectively felt as if nobody else was playing the game and gamers were not interacting with other gamers. There is also an existing history of the deprecation of content through removal of rewards moving players to new content. We saw that with dungeons and fractals. Conceptually. if no other factors existed, this might indeed function as OP envisions.

 

However the OP's argument has at least 1 unspoken underlying assumption: that the pool of raiders will remain static or continue to grow if ANET deprecates early raids. There is an expressed assumption that raiding is or should be primarily for the purpose of challenge and continued participation in early content is bad for the mode. Both of these assumption are fallacies.

 

The assumption that the pool of raiders will remain constant or grow has already been challenged. Players leave the game out of boredom, real-life issues, frustration, etc. The number of new players to the game or a given mode has to equal or exceed the number of players leaving in order for that game mode to remain viable. It has already been pointed out that the OP's assertion will negatively impact new players coming into raiding as a game mode. It has also been pointed out that the OP's assertion will provide a disincentive for HoT only gamers because they will lose most/any reward for the content they have already paid for. The burden is now upon the OP to demonstrate at least logically how their model overcomes this hurdle of the loss of player inflow and loss of existing players is not directly contradictory to their own statement:

 

> @"Xar.1387" said:

Until those modes are ingame, ArenaNet should support every of them. And trying to bring as much new people interested in those modes as they can. Bring Raiders. PvPers. And people which like Mass-PvP. Instead of making veterans leave to the other games which support those modes more.

>

The dungeon to fractal example in fact is not a direct correlation at all because fractals have an increasing challenge design that makes accommodation for new players to learn mechanics and increase their AR whereas deprecating early raids to disincentivize raiders for doing them actually penalizes new raiders for being . . . new.

 

This is where the expressed assumption that challenge is or should be the primary driving factor for raiding directly conflicts with the effects of the OP's desired deprecation of rewards. If the only thing that pays players for raiding is the new, more challenging content, but it is by definition harder to play, as someone has already noted, the bar for entry gets higher and higher which means that the inflow of new raiders will continue to drop. While the increase in challenge may hypothetically reduce the loss of raiders to boredom, again the burden is on the OP to demonstrate that the implementation of their assertion, will both not cause a catastrophic reduction in that pool of raiders and in fact have a beneficial effect to "bring as much new people interested in those modes as they can".

 

I am myself a raider and I love it. My guild has a lot of players who have no experience raiding. Some are brand new to GW2, others have been playing since pre-launch, others took a long break from the game and have recently returned. We have been running training raids to bring these players into raiding. These early "old" raids are excellent for that purpose. The new raiders are challenged (as previously mentioned by several others) and they get a sense of accomplishment when they learn the mechanics, understand rotations and begin to defeat these early bosses. They deserve their loot rewards just as much as the people who were the first in the door and first to defeat VG. Learning how to defeat VG & escort are gateways into having the confidence to try more difficult bosses. The early wings also provide an opportunity to relatively quickly earn the gear that is arguably necessary in order to beat the more challenging content.

 

The assertion that raiding should primarily be for challenge and not for farming is also flawed. As far as I know, raiding provides the fastest path to ascended armor. If you buy a character slot and want to gear that character quickly, go raid through W1-W4 for shards to gear that new character in order to learn how to raid in a new profession. Here again existing mastered content provides a good opportunity to master a new profession or elite specialization so that the raider isn't also trying to master new mechanics while also mastering a new rotation & set of skills. There is nothing wrong with desiring a challenge in raiding, but demanding that all raiders be forced to conform to the OP's values neglects too many other variables and differences in individual motivation.

 

TLDR: OP's assertion would over time reduce the number of raiders to unsustainable levels and is based upon faulty logic.

[LordMorgul.9845]

hey remove all dungeon reward too they are to old!!!! seriusly we are arguin about this? leave also world boss they are useless by now and reduce tequati size to a kitty so he can be archieved by new players!!!

 

[Obtena.7952]

What a completely misguided suggestion: Deleting old content doesn't make Anet focus more on new content. Nor the players.

[Vinceman.4572]

I don't think they'll ever put a main focus on PvP again. Seriously, they had the chance back in the days when GW2 PvP had a tiny competitive e-sport niche. They should have started split balancing between modes when it was heavily needed and focussing on that but they missed it. If you look at the actual PvP scene there are well established A+ titles. GW2 will never be able to get anything from the cake (back). It would need a big revolution within the game to have such an effect and regarding the evolution in GW2 it's more than unlikely to happen. Minor improvements are possible and I expect them in all game modes but nothing more.

[Deadly Moonshiner.1354]

So what if people's skills get better with practice so "raid become easier"? It is normal and expected. It should not result in penalizing people and cutting them out of any kind of rewards.

 

So what if people farm any content? Why to take that from those who like it or do it for whatever other reason?

 

Who decides when a particular content (or raid if you wish) is "old" and the loot from it should be removed? Based on what criteria would it be done?

 

In my view, removing rewards from old content is unfair to players who did not do that content for whatever reason.

 

I really don't understand OP's motive for this suggestion. After all, if one doesn't want to be rewarded for certain things done (I can hardly believe there's a lot of such people) he/she can always donate or destroy items/gold rewarded.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Deadly Moonshiner.1354" said:

> So what if people's skills get better with practice so "raid become easier"? It is normal and expected. It should not result in penalizing people and cutting them out of any kind of rewards.

>

> So what if people farm any content? Why to take that from those who like it or do it for whatever other reason?

>

> Who decides when a particular content (or raid if you wish) is "old" and the loot from it should be removed? Based on what criteria would it be done?

>

> In my view, removing rewards from old content is unfair to players who did not do that content for whatever reason.

>

> I really don't understand OP's motive for this suggestion. After all, if one doesn't want to be rewarded for certain things done (I can hardly believe there's a lot of such people) he/she can always donate or destroy items/gold rewarded.

>

 

I guess you could also just ignore those raid wings too.

[Altion.9576]

I disagree. I havent completed any Raid yet and I want them to have rewards to make me want to do it again.

[wanya.1697]

there are still enough players out there who even fail at escort so no I rly dont think thread opener is correct

anet could make CMs repeatable for extra loot but not reduce loot for the normal clear that would be rly stupid

[Zagerus.8675]

While I don't agree that removing/toning down rewards is a good idea, it -could- provide a unique opportunity to turn the initial wings into stepping stones for new raiders. If you're new to the game or can't meet time commitments to be in a static you are still left with spending a ton of time organizing a group, and sometimes it is only for one boss. In that sense the time commitment vs. rewards gained is pretty justified imo. If the rewards in the initial wing(s) are toned down, the fights should theoretically lose some of their edge against new players. Some things that you could do while shaving the shard reward:

 

Vale Guardian:

- Change greens so that if you miss, it inflicts a minor pulsing damage debuff instead of a spike of damage. Damage could be @ or around average regen healing.

Gorseval:

- Reduce Orb count

Sabetha:

- Slightly lower health on cannons.

 

On the other hand... you could make the wings more difficult. Some things that you could do to make the community rage:

 

Vale Guardian:

- Missing Greens causes everyone in the area to lose all boons in addition to the spike damage.

 

Gorseval:

- Reinforce Gorseval's break phase by adding KB shockwaves to his fist pound attack. Aegis and stability uptime shouldn't be a problem in experienced groups.

 

Sabetha:

- Give her an unblockable aoe KB as part of her attack chain in the last phase. KB distance equal to half of the platform.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

With the introduction of LD the reward for the old wings have been deleted. Currently only two wings give these, the old wings give li, which is worthless to those who mastered the wings long ago. What does old encounters give now, 2 gold, 1 exo worth probably less than 1 gold and 1 rare worth less than 50s.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> With the introduction of LD the reward for the old wings have been deleted. Currently only two wings give these, the old wings give li, which is worthless to those who mastered the wings long ago. What does old encounters give now, 2 gold, 1 exo worth probably less than 1 gold and 1 rare worth less than 50s.

 

You are discounting all the people who have yet to get the ascended items they want(skins or other wise), and the people who still need to make legendary armor, regardless of if they have mastered the wings already. 2 gold is nothing to scoff at either, and exos and rares are useful for salvage if nothing else.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Zagerus.8675" said:

> While I don't agree that removing/toning down rewards is a good idea, it -could- provide a unique opportunity to turn the initial wings into stepping stones for new raiders. If you're new to the game or can't meet time commitments to be in a static you are still left with spending a ton of time organizing a group, and sometimes it is only for one boss. In that sense the time commitment vs. rewards gained is pretty justified imo. If the rewards in the initial wing(s) are toned down, the fights should theoretically lose some of their edge against new players. Some things that you could do while shaving the shard reward:

>

> Vale Guardian:

> - Change greens so that if you miss, it inflicts a minor pulsing damage debuff instead of a spike of damage. Damage could be @ or around average regen healing.

So basically remove the punishment for missed green entirely. Does not help at all for new players.

> Gorseval:

> - Reduce Orb count

Orbs are not the problem, longer World Eater casttime would be better.

> Sabetha:

> - Slightly lower health on cannons.

Cannon health is not the problem, making the bomb last longer would help.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >

> > Vale Guardian:

> > - Change greens so that if you miss, it inflicts a minor pulsing damage debuff instead of a spike of damage. Damage could be @ or around average regen healing.

> So basically remove the punishment for missed green entirely. Does not help at all for new players.

Yes, that change would be equal to completely removing the mechanic. Better to just decrease the damage spike a little. I'd also decrease the range (and damage) of teleports, and damage aura of seekers.

 

> > Gorseval:

> > - Reduce Orb count

> Orbs are not the problem, longer World Eater casttime would be better.

Reducing orb _health_ would probably not hurt, as it would still instill importance of avoiding their fields/destroying them. Longer World Eater casttime would be a good idea regardless whether one would go for updraft or no-updraft strat.

 

> > Sabetha:

> > - Slightly lower health on cannons.

> Cannon health is not the problem, making the bomb last longer would help.

Also a good idea. Personally haven't seen a single case where someone couldn't kill the cannon once they jumped safely - the problems are always centered around actual jump (bombs, not going there on time, getting killed by firewall or flak). Making the next and current cannon marked _on platform_ (and not only on minimap) in easymode only would also be of significant help for new groups.