Is nerfing core to get at elite specs bad?

Crab Fear.1624 · October 31, 2018

Seems like it is.

I mean if some things are to synergistic, it makes more sense to go after the newer half. I mean, hasn't the old stuff been nerfed to hell and back?

I'm not talking about thief, though usually I am.

I also swear this one is not a troll post.....I swear.

Doesn't it grind your gears to see them nerfing core stuff?

You have to go after the new pieces, not the old stuff.

Heck, a few old specs really could use a tune up.

Chopping up the old stuff really sucks the variety out.

I mean, in the competive/pvp sense what is the core spec that needs some love, and what elite spec needs its balls chopped off?

Trevor Boyer.6524 · October 31, 2018

I'll use the simple grading system F through S for a generalized grade of class potential for certain optimal roles. For the first list, consider that core existed in a world of its own, without HoT or PoF specs against them:

* **Warrior** (A-) as a side noder. It's functional in team fights but doesn't excel. Not as effective at +ing as a dedicated Roam.

* **Guardian** (S+) as a team fight and side noder. In the world of core, this build is clearly dominant. Dominant enough to contend against HoT PoF meta.

* **Revenant** - Not even sure I've ever seen a Core Revenant played. Can't really comment.

* **Engineer** (B+) viable team fight/side noder. He's slightly annoying to kill still with dual elixir s and rampage/tornado, but without the presence of forge his damage and counter offensive pressure is greatly reduced.

* **Thief** (A+) S/D marauder is still strong and would be a top 3 meta amongst core. It would be the side noder of choice for sure.

* **Ranger** (A) with the use of HoT/PoF pets or a (B+) with only old pets. Having that smokescale for stealthing makes a big difference. The Core Ranger would pretty much function like a watered down version of the modern Soulbeast.

* **Necromancer** (A-) as a team fight and only a team fight. It's terrible at anything else because it lacks mobility even more so than Reapers and Scourges. The only reason I even get it an A- is because in the world of core, it's the only thing with access to large amounts of boon removal/conversion. If it weren't for that boon removal/conversion, it would be a solid B at the best.

* **Elementalist** (C+) Wouldn't be viable. Without Tempest or Weaver it's just kind of bad, even in the world of core. I believe this is mainly due to the nerfing of celestial amulet, and how core ele was designed around the use of such stats that are now nerfed.

* **Mesmer** (A-) as a side noder if he was in games with no Core Guards, but only (C+) at best if Core Guards were present. A Mesmer with no added Mirage capabilities would be completely kitten stomped by Core Guard burst. There would be so many tears in this forum about it, that one could dry them out, sell the salt, and probably launch a fairly lucrative company by doing it.

* Additional side note: Warriors/Engis/Rangers might be able to concoct viable bunker specs in a core meta, but none of the above would be able to run viable support specs with the game's current patching.

Without getting too in depth, I'll launch some discussion on at least what I can draw from my above analysis:

* Warrior is a balanced core spec. Berserker is ridiculously under powered competitively but is a king DPS role in PvE. Spellbreaker is in my opinion balanced. Yes I said it, I feel Spellbreaker is balanced competitively. Additionally, I'd like to note that I often use Warrior/Spellbreaker as my comparison for general conquest balance.

* Guardian is a ridiculous over powered core spec with its damage potential. DH has little cohesion with why Guardian is a nuts over powered core spec, and thus doesn't equate to a strong competitive spec but it still reigns in the more important PvE roles for Guardian mains. Firebrand being centered around support also has little cohesion with what makes Core Guard strong, so I feel Firebrand is at the moment balanced. I feel like Arenanet needs to find a compromise between Core Guard and DH here. Maybe tone down Core competitively and turn up DH competitively again. The important reason why I say this, is because Core Guard is too powerful for f2p accounts to have access to. There are too many people making f2p accounts and smurfing in with Core Guards. This does not help the win trading problem or even general pleb smurf tactics.

* Revenant - No comment on core - Renegade has PvE DPS that's for sure, but it is by far the most unviable competitive spec. They've got to do something for Renegade ^^ Seriously you could run a mace/mace warrior using a knight's amulet and probably tear apart any Renegade. Herald is difficult to comment on. In some aspects I feel it is underpowered, but in other aspects and in some situations, it can be ridiculously over powered. In the end though, I'd say Herald ultimately is balanced.

* Engineer seems to be a fairly balanced core spec. Scrapper is currently.. meeeeh.. I hear people talk about it but I've yet to see any efficient Scrappers. Holosmith is widely over powered. Not only is it the Engineer's king DPS role in PvE, but it is also the choice spec to run in conquest. Right here is a good example of what Crab is talking about. Holosmith as a new elite spec is fronting too much. Before you complain about Elixir S! remember that you wouldn't even notice those elixirs if you were a Core Guardian beating up a Core Engi.

* Thief is almost balanced as a core spec, but it's a little over the top. Then you have both Daredevil and Deadeye, which remain competitive in the world of HoT PoF. In this case, I'd say leave Thief alone. It's kind of like Warrior, it is a good example of something that is actually balanced amongst the intra-class meta. If anything needed fixing, it's some slight changes to core thief. The only exception to this is Deadeye. I'm not so sure that it's OP... I just don't believe that any class should have such easy permanent access to stealth disengagement. On basic principle, that needs to stop. At least Thief/Daredevil has to actually stop and blast fields in a fairly obvious manner to maintain such high stealth uptime.

* Ranger is now a pretty powerful core class, but still nothing like the Core Guard. Druid maintains it's favorable support role in PvE, but is no longer viable in higher tiered competition. Before you loyal Druid players comment on how viable it still is, remember that it takes some guy who is ultra class loyal to make it viable. Soulbeast is currently over performing. Now concerning Crab's OP discussion, Ranger as a core class could afford to take a hit to its sustain factor, which would effect Soulbeast adequately with the right nerfs. Soulbeast's main problem imo is that it has too strong of raw face tanking sustain for how much damage it deals. In this case, it's the core class that is empowering Soulbeast.

* Necromancer is an interesting case. Necro is balanced in core due its boon conversion role. Reaper I feel is balanced in conquest. Scourge I feel is balanced in wvw but is now a bit lacking in conquest, due to being targeted in small skirmishes. The only thing Necromancer is missing is a place in PvE. But competitively, these classes are imo on par in "level of balance" to the Warrior. If anything were to change, the core class of Necromancer could afford some buffs to condition application, to help bolster Scourge competitively again and to possibly allow it to contend in PvE DPS with other condition classes.

* Elementalist - Core Ele needs to be buffed. No discussion behind it.

* Mesmer would perform slightly better than the Warrior and would probably take the Ranger's spot as one of the 3 top core metas Guard/Thief/Ranger, if it weren't for Core Guard Bursting. Due to the Core Guards, Mesmer would actually end up performing worse than the Warrior. But I can say that core Mesmer is all about old power bursting anyway, so I think core Mesmer condition application could afford to see a slight nerf, which would help calm down Condi Mirage, without disturbing the popular use of Core Mesmer Power competitively, or Support Chronos in PvE.

To address the OP post directly I'd say: "At this point, it just depends."

Arheundel.6451 · October 31, 2018

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I'll use the simple grading system F through S for a generalized grade of class potential for certain optimal roles. For the first list, consider that core existed in a world of its own, without HoT or PoF specs against them:

> * **Warrior** (A-) as a side noder. It's functional in team fights but doesn't excel. Not as effective at +ing as a dedicated Roam.

> * **Guardian** (S+) as a team fight and side noder. In the world of core, this build is clearly dominant. Dominant enough to contend against HoT PoF meta.

> * **Revenant** - Not even sure I've ever seen a Core Revenant played. Can't really comment.

> * **Engineer** (B+) viable team fight/side noder. He's slightly annoying to kill still with dual elixir s and rampage/tornado, but without the presence of forge his damage and counter offensive pressure is greatly reduced.

> * **Thief** (A+) S/D marauder is still strong and would be a top 3 meta amongst core. It would be the side noder of choice for sure.

> * **Ranger** (A) with the use of HoT/PoF pets or a (B+) with only old pets. Having that smokescale for stealthing makes a big difference. The Core Ranger would pretty much function like a watered down version of the modern Soulbeast.

> * **Necromancer** (A-) as a team fight and only a team fight. It's terrible at anything else because it lacks mobility even more so than Reapers and Scourges. The only reason I even get it an A- is because in the world of core, it's the only thing with access to large amounts of boon removal/conversion. If it weren't for that boon removal/conversion, it would be a solid B at the best.

> * **Elementalist** (C+) Wouldn't be viable. Without Tempest or Weaver it's just kind of bad, even in the world of core. I believe this is mainly due to the nerfing of celestial amulet, and how core ele was designed around the use of such stats that are now nerfed.

> * **Mesmer** (A-) as a side noder if he was in games with no Core Guards, but only (C+) at best if Core Guards were present. A Mesmer with no added Mirage capabilities would be completely kitten stomped by Core Guard burst. There would be so many tears in this forum about it, that one could dry them out, sell the salt, and probably launch a fairly lucrative company by doing it.

> * Additional side note: Warriors/Engis/Rangers might be able to concoct viable bunker specs in a core meta, but none of the above would be able to run viable support specs with the game's current patching.

>

> Without getting too in depth, I'll launch some discussion on at least what I can draw from my above analysis:

> * Warrior is a balanced core spec. Berserker is ridiculously under powered competitively but is a king DPS role in PvE. Spellbreaker is in my opinion balanced. Yes I said it, I feel Spellbreaker is balanced competitively. Additionally, I'd like to note that I often use Warrior/Spellbreaker as my comparison for general conquest balance.

> * Guardian is a ridiculous over powered core spec with its damage potential. DH has little cohesion with why Guardian is a nuts over powered core spec, and thus doesn't equate to a strong competitive spec but it still reigns in the more important PvE roles for Guardian mains. Firebrand being centered around support also has little cohesion with what makes Core Guard strong, so I feel Firebrand is at the moment balanced. I feel like Arenanet needs to find a compromise between Core Guard and DH here. Maybe tone down Core competitively and turn up DH competitively again. The important reason why I say this, is because Core Guard is too powerful for f2p accounts to have access to. There are too many people making f2p accounts and smurfing in with Core Guards. This does not help the win trading problem or even general pleb smurf tactics.

> * Revenant - No comment on core - Renegade has PvE DPS that's for sure, but it is by far the most unviable competitive spec. They've got to do something for Renegade ^^ Seriously you could run a mace/mace warrior using a knight's amulet and probably tear apart any Renegade. Herald is difficult to comment on. In some aspects I feel it is underpowered, but in other aspects and in some situations, it can be ridiculously over powered. In the end though, I'd say Herald ultimately is balanced.

> * Engineer seems to be a fairly balanced core spec. Scrapper is currently.. meeeeh.. I hear people talk about it but I've yet to see any efficient Scrappers. Holosmith is widely over powered. Not only is it the Engineer's king DPS role in PvE, but it is also the choice spec to run in conquest. Right here is a good example of what Crab is talking about. Holosmith as a new elite spec is fronting too much. Before you complain about Elixir S! remember that you wouldn't even notice those elixirs if you were a Core Guardian beating up a Core Engi.

> * Thief is almost balanced as a core spec, but it's a little over the top. Then you have both Daredevil and Deadeye, which remain competitive in the world of HoT PoF. In this case, I'd say leave Thief alone. It's kind of like Warrior, it is a good example of something that is actually balanced amongst the intra-class meta. If anything needed fixing, it's some slight changes to core thief. The only exception to this is Deadeye. I'm not so sure that it's OP... I just don't believe that any class should have such easy permanent access to stealth disengagement. On basic principle, that needs to stop. At least Thief/Daredevil has to actually stop and blast fields in a fairly obvious manner to maintain such high stealth uptime.

> * Ranger is now a pretty powerful core class, but still nothing like the Core Guard. Druid maintains it's favorable support role in PvE, but is no longer viable in higher tiered competition. Before you loyal Druid players comment on how viable it still is, remember that it takes some guy who is ultra class loyal to make it viable. Soulbeast is currently over performing. Now concerning Crab's OP discussion, Ranger as a core class could afford to take a hit to its sustain factor, which would effect Soulbeast adequately with the right nerfs. Soulbeast's main problem imo is that it has too strong of raw face tanking sustain for how much damage it deals. In this case, it's the core class that is empowering Soulbeast.

> * Necromancer is an interesting case. Necro is balanced in core due its boon conversion role. Reaper I feel is balanced in conquest. Scourge I feel is balanced in wvw but is now a bit lacking in conquest, due to being targeted in small skirmishes. The only thing Necromancer is missing is a place in PvE. But competitively, these classes are imo on par in "level of balance" to the Warrior. If anything were to change, the core class of Necromancer could afford some buffs to condition application, to help bolster Scourge competitively again and to possibly allow it to contend in PvE DPS with other condition classes.

> * Elementalist - Core Ele needs to be buffed. No discussion behind it.

> * Mesmer would perform slightly better than the Warrior and would probably take the Ranger's spot as one of the 3 top core metas Guard/Thief/Ranger, if it weren't for Core Guard Bursting. Due to the Core Guards, Mesmer would actually end up performing worse than the Warrior. But I can say that core Mesmer is all about old power bursting anyway, so I think core Mesmer condition application could afford to see a slight nerf, which would help calm down Condi Mirage, without disturbing the popular use of Core Mesmer Power competitively, or Support Chronos in PvE.

>

> To address the OP post directly I'd say: "At this point, it just depends."

>

I thought soulbeast was balanced and that holosmith issues were with elixirs and not with the actual kit.......that overabundance of boons on soulbeast doesn't seem to be as "balanced" as some tried to pass it for but regardless.....to nerf core in order to bring down an elite, makes you wonder what kind of sustain next elite should offer then am I wrong?....You cannot build a castle on sand

Math.5123 · October 31, 2018

In broad strokes, yes. To get a bit more in depth though; nerfing something like the honor trait line in order to hit Firebrand is something I'd be okay with, because there's no way a core guard build will be a viable support build anytime soon. So long as something that is viable (but not OP, see radiance guard) is using the traits, I'd prefer if you left it be.

You have traits like monks focus on valor which has been a staple in damage as well as support builds alike. I'd be very changing these.

Abimes.9726 · October 31, 2018

- Core "Guardian is a ridiculous over powered core spec with its damage potential".

- -> In the actual balance, Core guard is totaly fine at what it does . You don't have to tune things down cause F2P players get acces to strong options. Go play P2W games if that's your mentality.

- "Necromancer is an interesting case. Necro is balanced in core due its boon conversion role"

- -> Core Necromancer without strong suport meta builds is into the pre celestial necro meta. Wich means ok, if you are left alone (not focused) but the lack

of stability/mobility and self sustain makes it a niche class for rare situations (boon heavy comps) or on some maps (khylo). No way near balanced in the current meta.

- "Thief is almost balanced as a core spec, but it's a little over the top."

--> No core thief is fine ... again, like the guardian it's not because a F2P build is viable you have to kill it.

- "Core Mesmer"

--> Core Mesmer is nowhere viable in the current meta (fun to play and you can pull it off in soloQ) but it is a one poney trick build. So nerfing the roots of it is just silly again.

- Core "Engineer seems to be a fairly balanced core spec". (Main engineer)

- -> The effort to pull something off is huge in comparison to the rewards you get. Like mesmer it's a one poney trick build nuking ppl down with a toolkit pull/ nade barage. Sustain is on the lower end with the nerf of regenerative back pack few years ago, condi mitigation was obliteraded with the cleansing elixirs changes. nerfing core traits that help holo deal more damage would just kill the core build totaly.

And I could continue ... But my point is to to show you cannot balance elite specs by nerfing viable or nearly viable core specs without killing them. Because they need every tool they can get to compete with POF and HOT specs.

So can you balance elites disregarding core builds ? Yes, if you like P2W games and you wan't small gameplay diversity amongst classes.

The better option is to structure traits so that core have synergies that elites can't have and rework bad/underwelming traits that are barely used.

(sorry my english is meh...)

Kind regards,

Me

Meteor.3720 · October 31, 2018

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Necro is balanced in core due its boon conversion role.

I lol'ed.

So core can boon corrupt ... Not much more than reaper or scourge depending on your spec. And it has almost no access to stability (when almost everyone agrees CC is out of control) and no viable elite.

Core is a meme. Fun, but a meme.

Abimes.9726 · October 31, 2018

> @"Meteor.3720" said:

> I lol'ed.

> So core can boon corrupt ... Not much more than reaper or scourge depending on your spec. And it has almost no access to stability (when almost everyone agrees CC is out of control) and no viable elite.

>

> Core is a meme. Fun, but a meme.

Less than scourge if you consider utilities and sandshade corruption trait ;) .

Megametzler.5729 · October 31, 2018

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> (...) For the first list, consider that core existed in a world of its own, without HoT or PoF specs against them:

> (...)

I'll just leave this part here, so some people might read more than "omg he mentioned my class, I only read the sentences about that!" :wink:

Trevor Boyer.6524 · October 31, 2018

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > (...) For the first list, consider that core existed in a world of its own, without HoT or PoF specs against them:

> > (...)

>

> I'll just leave this part here, so some people might read more than "omg he mentioned my class, I only read the sentences about that!" :wink:

Ha, I was going to make a similar post but you did it for me already. It's amazing how they have so much time to type, but so little time to read.

Hoodie.1045 · October 31, 2018

It depends on how much the elite specializations synergize with the core specializations. For some professions, nerfing core traits/utility skills does tone down certain elite specializations like firebrand with the honor specialization. The wrong way to do this is by nerfing core traits/utility skills that the core professions desperately need like Plague Signet for necromancer. Plague Signet got its cooldown increased from 30 seconds to 40 seconds which was apparently done because of the condition scourge meta before reaper was even viable, but this also nerfed core necromancer at the same time.

As for holosmith, the traits that it benefits the most currently are Self-Regulating Defenses and HGH. Does that mean that those traits should be nerfed? Maybe Self-Regulating Defenses, but not HGH. The real problem with holosmith is photon forge. That is what makes holosmith better than both core engineer and scrapper. It's better to nerf photon forge skills rather than core traits/utility skills. Also, kits and kit traits could use a little buff. Core engineer and scrapper are the only ones that need kits, so buffing the kits (damage, condition duration, cooldowns, cast times) and kit traits (Grenadier, Backpack Regenerator) would improve them greatly.

FyzE.3472 · October 31, 2018

I like how people give input. Quite a lot of it actually. And it is being completely ignored.

otto.5684 · October 31, 2018

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Seems like it is.

>

> I mean if some things are to synergistic, it makes more sense to go after the newer half. I mean, hasn't the old stuff been nerfed to hell and back?

>

> I'm not talking about thief, though usually I am.

>

> I also swear this one is not a troll post.....I swear.

>

> Doesn't it grind your gears to see them nerfing core stuff?

>

> You have to go after the new pieces, not the old stuff.

>

> Heck, a few old specs really could use a tune up.

>

> Chopping up the old stuff really sucks the variety out.

>

> I mean, in the competive/pvp sense what is the core spec that needs some love, and what elite spec needs its balls chopped off?

This is a complex subject. Probably one of the most contentious balance issues in the game as well. And honestly, I cannot find any consistent logic that Anet follows here.

I think @"Trevor Boyer.6524" has a good summary (even though I do not agree with the suggestions). Core guardian can compete with even the most powerful PoF builds. Core guardian is not ideal, and in my opinion, is a downgrade over Holo and Reaper as team fighter bruiser build. But.. on core level it would be ridiculously overpowered. I started playing the game few month before HoT. If we transport core guardian back to 2015, there would be no reason to play anything except core guardian outside of power shatter Mesmer and S/D core thief (which will play as decapers anyway). However, guardian elites for dps builds are a downgrade for the most part. Guardian is the only class that its core build is stronger than its elites (except support FB). I can assure this is not an oversight by Anet. It is clearly by design.

Looking at all other classes design:

Compare that with most other classes. I think thief is the only class that has equal footing on all three fronts: core, HoT and PoF.

Mesmer power shatter can do even more damage per shatter than mirage, but it will seriously lack in sustain comparatively. Condi core Mesmer is not a thing. Clearly, Mesmer current balance is based on mirage. It is presumed you do not play anything else in sPvP and honestly, nothing else is competitive.

Warrior core, honestly, is not bad. Specially with the recent buff to mending, it could potentially be played well. However, I would argue that warrior as whole is currently balanced around one skill; FC. Any build not using FC (and obviously SB to have access to FC) is at a serious disadvantage, particularly to focus fire and boon corruption.

Ranger is probably the last possible core build. It plays same as Soul Beast with less damage and sustain and no unique advantages at all. It is a major downgrade with no ups. It is no more than a vessel for Soul Beast. And this is the trend. I think druid is better than people give it credit for (but not meta). It also uses base ranger as a vessel and is an upgrade on it for the most part. And this is the trend going down.

Necro core is a pure vessel for Reaper and Scourge. It cannot stand on its own (though I saw some people do okayish with it). Ele core is a vessel for Tempest and Weaver, primarily Weaver though. I would say, like Mesmer, Ele balance is based on solely playing Weaver. Core eng.. well, I have seen people play a condi core eng that did somewhat decent. But clearly eng damage and sustain sits in Holo and Scrapper. Lastly Rev. Rev is solely balanced on the assumption you have access to Herald. Boon stacking for damage, good chunk of the sustain and access to swiftness are gated by Herald. There is a reason why all sPvP builds (even the none-effective ones using hammer or playing condi) must use Herald.

There are major discrepancies in design ideologies among classes. And as far as I understand how Anet class balance team operates, it makes sense. What we know:

There is a team for sPvP. Led by Ben, which I really like =)

There is an end game PvE team.

There is a WvW.

Individual devs oversee 1 (and possibly more) classes to note there performance in every game mode and possible adjustments.

The last one is the issue. I think dev(s) responsible for Mesmer, Guardian and Thief actively play these classes and actively engage in changes to fix issues with these classes. The remainder classes, it varies. And some of them (like Rev) clearly either have no dedicated dev(s) or the dev is simply clueless. And it shows, not in the classes having a meta build, but in build and weapon diversity. As guardian main, I can possibly make a build with any weapon and line combinations in sPvP and it would not be terrible (clearly may not be viable or meta, but would work). This also applies to thief and Mesmer to a big extent. To some extent, this maybe true for some classes. For others, not much.

It would be nice if Anet has a clear and consistent class balance ideology. But they do not. At least as of late, the balance team have been doing better across the board. However, something as major as having core classes on equal footing with each other or with elites is probably not currently possible.

MUDse.7623 · October 31, 2018

i think as long as there is no required to take core exclusive line, it will be difficult to balance core against its elites and with more elites they will have to reshape core more and more so neither elite gets too strong, but many elites will fall out of use in the some modes.

the more build options we have, the harder it will be to balance and the more encounters will be decided by build. if we get more elite specs i hope actually that they nerf core to keep the variety lower and the game easier to balance, for core to remain competitive then it obviously also would need exclusive aspects.

BeLZedaR.4790 · November 1, 2018

It would be better to target the elite spec itself, because nerfing core pushes back not only pure core, but also HOT builds, most of which are out of the meta since PoF launch.

Stand The Wall.6987 · November 1, 2018

its horrible and I despise it.

Crinn.7864 · November 2, 2018