Balance

[Tazer.2157]

Okay I have been playing GW2 PvP and before this, I have played Dota2 a lot. And my experience with gw2 is laughable. The balance is frankly flawed. Taking the necromancer class as an example, I killed one and while he was in downed state, he almost killed me LOL. This kind of gameplay does not reward good play. When you take a necro/guard duo down, they just res each other and by that time, the rest of the opposite team comes up while our skills are on cd and we are then facing a 5 man team and our previous kill was for nothing. The res mechanic combined with the bs aoe condi damage is ridiculous. PvP should reward a kill, instead, here we are punished. Frankly, I think the res mechanic needs a serious rework. There should be a disadvantage to res a downed teammate. But currently, there is no downside to res a teammate if you pick a necro which I find every game. Now in any other game, if devs find that a class is prominent in PvP games, they would take a look at it. But not here. It is frankly unbelievable that this has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it. In fact, I am not even sure it will ever be fixed. This kind of unbalanced gameplay can really be a turn off for many. A really easy fix would be to have a res on cd. It is such an easy fix. If you are resurrected, you shouldn't be able to get resurrected for maybe 30 seconds. This way a decision to res a person can atleast be made. Right now its a brain dead mechanic and does not reward good play. Rather the current PvP rewards condi spam, aoe which makes certain classes have a large advantage over others.

[bigo.9037]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> Okay I have been playing GW2 PvP and before this, I have played Dota2 a lot. And my experience with gw2 is laughable. The balance is frankly flawed. Taking the necromancer class as an example, I killed one and while he was in downed state, he almost killed me LOL. This kind of gameplay does not reward good play. When you take a necro/guard duo down, they just res each other and by that time, the rest of the opposite team comes up while our skills are on cd and we are then facing a 5 man team and our previous kill was for nothing. The res mechanic combined with the bs aoe condi damage is ridiculous. PvP should reward a kill, instead, here we are punished. Frankly, I think the res mechanic needs a serious rework. There should be a disadvantage to res a downed teammate. But currently, there is no downside to res a teammate if you pick a necro which I find every game. Now in any other game, if devs find that a class is prominent in PvP games, they would take a look at it. But not here. It is frankly unbelievable that this has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it. In fact, I am not even sure it will ever be fixed. This kind of unbalanced gameplay can really be a turn off for many. A really easy fix would be to have a res on cd. It is such an easy fix. If you are resurrected, you shouldn't be able to get resurrected for maybe 30 seconds. This way a decision to res a person can atleast be made. Right now its a brain dead mechanic and does not reward good play. Rather the current PvP rewards condi spam, aoe which makes certain classes have a large advantage over others.

 

downed state balance I agree on completely. but the thing is.. there's already a certain timer that dictates how many times you can be ressed within X seconds.

 

imo, it should be like this:

 

go down, if you get back up in any way ( ressurrect normal by teammates pressing F, signet by guardians or rally. ) you will immediately die next time your HP reaches 0. this "debuff" lasts for 3 minutes. after 3 minutes, you can go down and be ressurrected 1 time again.

 

the problem is necro/ guard teams who can basically perpetually keep each other alive by ressing.

[Zero.3871]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> Okay I have been playing GW2 PvP and before this, I have played Dota2 a lot. And my experience with gw2 is laughable. The balance is frankly flawed. Taking the necromancer class as an example,I killed one and while he was in downed state, he almost killed me LOL. This kind of gameplay does not reward good play. **When you take a necro/guard duo down, they just res each other and by that time, the rest of the opposite team comes up while our skills are on cd and we are then facing a 5 man team and our previous kill was for nothing**. The res mechanic combined with the bs aoe condi damage is ridiculous. PvP should reward a kill, instead, here we are punished. Frankly, I think the res mechanic needs a serious rework. There should be a disadvantage to res a downed teammate. But currently, there is no downside to res a teammate if you pick a necro which I find every game. Now in any other game, if devs find that a class is prominent in PvP games, they would take a look at it. But not here. It is frankly unbelievable that this has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it. In fact, I am not even sure it will ever be fixed. This kind of unbalanced gameplay can really be a turn off for many. A really easy fix would be to have a res on cd. It is such an easy fix. If you are resurrected, you shouldn't be able to get resurrected for maybe 30 seconds. This way a decision to res a person can atleast be made. Right now its a brain dead mechanic and does not reward good play. Rather the current PvP rewards condi spam, aoe which makes certain classes have a large advantage over others.

 

1.)while i agree, that downstate in its current state is just too forgiving when you did a misplay (more in wvw than in spvp). i dont agree with your flame against necro/guard comb.

 

when i see mesm, holo ressing their teammates while getting bombed of whole enemy Team without getting any dmg because they can res WHILE being invul is even MORE annoying (guards /necros can atleast getting bombed if you are fast enough).

 

2.)also those classes outsustain you easily on Points until their Team comes to help them (without going down), so this is also not a necro/guard only thing.

 

so the Problem is NOT guard/necro, it is the downstate mechanic thats Need a nerf in all competitive modes.

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

@Tazer.2157, its pvp for very casuals and pve players.

Alot of players need some pushsers and helpers, reason gimmicks and metas are the way to play due overperformance to catter the real gw2 playerbase target.

 

@Zero.3871, Anet dev's play mesmers, expect that class to be always optimized, w/o "punishing" as some other classes do.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > Okay I have been playing GW2 PvP and before this, I have played Dota2 a lot. And my experience with gw2 is laughable. The balance is frankly flawed. Taking the necromancer class as an example,I killed one and while he was in downed state, he almost killed me LOL. This kind of gameplay does not reward good play. **When you take a necro/guard duo down, they just res each other and by that time, the rest of the opposite team comes up while our skills are on cd and we are then facing a 5 man team and our previous kill was for nothing**. The res mechanic combined with the bs aoe condi damage is ridiculous. PvP should reward a kill, instead, here we are punished. Frankly, I think the res mechanic needs a serious rework. There should be a disadvantage to res a downed teammate. But currently, there is no downside to res a teammate if you pick a necro which I find every game. Now in any other game, if devs find that a class is prominent in PvP games, they would take a look at it. But not here. It is frankly unbelievable that this has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it. In fact, I am not even sure it will ever be fixed. This kind of unbalanced gameplay can really be a turn off for many. A really easy fix would be to have a res on cd. It is such an easy fix. If you are resurrected, you shouldn't be able to get resurrected for maybe 30 seconds. This way a decision to res a person can atleast be made. Right now its a brain dead mechanic and does not reward good play. Rather the current PvP rewards condi spam, aoe which makes certain classes have a large advantage over others.

>

> 1.)while i agree, that downstate in its current state is just too forgiving when you did a misplay (more in wvw than in spvp). i dont agree with your flame against necro/guard comb.

>

> when i see mesm, holo ressing their teammates while getting bombed of whole enemy Team without getting any dmg because they can res WHILE being invul is even MORE annoying (guards /necros can atleast getting bombed if you are fast enough).

>

> 2.)also those classes outsustain you easily on Points until their Team comes to help them (without going down), so this is also not a necro/guard only thing.

>

> so the Problem is NOT guard/necro, it is the downstate mechanic thats Need a nerf in all competitive modes.

>

>

 

1) Mesmer and Holo using invuln to rez is wasting one of their essential defensive cool downs. This is a choice between getting a rez to turn a fight into a 2v1 but if it backfires then it can end spectacularly as you're short 1 CD and can even end up dying yourself, see below as a great example of a holo dying to a build that it should absolutely take a dump on. A mistake was made but it was a decent decision to make.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/AlertAlertCasetteAMPEnergy

 

Downstate is largely OK when you have proper teams, they will bait you into the rez and then cleave you, the damage in the game is so high a rez is very risky atm, much safer to use merciful intervention/signet of mercy. A FB can easily rez in a FB/Scourge duo because they can cleanse while rezzing or slap down resistance symbol which will mitigate a lot of damage from the scourge. This is also why most scourges wait to use the elite when either they are going to down or the enemy will as it's very strong at preventing a rez.

 

The only place downstate is really bad is when you're fighting 5 absolutely shocking players in WvW but can't kill any because they keep rezzing.

[XECOR.2814]

Wait so builds made to synergize each other and players teamplaying is a problem but mirage, holo, soulbeast, deadeye solo damage and insane survivability is not?

[Tazer.2157]

With all the gripe against the ress mechanic you would think something would be done about it. Maybe the devs can at least tell us why they keep the ress mechanic and then we can improve on it. Something has to be done about it. These days it’s not even worth engaging 2 necros at a point because you know they ress each other up. The same is true for the Druid that actually turns invisible to ress. That is seriously broken that it’s laughable that it’s allowed.

[Tazer.2157]

 

> 1) Mesmer and Holo using invuln to rez is wasting one of their essential defensive cool downs. This is a choice between getting a rez to turn a fight into a 2v1 but if it backfires then it can end spectacularly as you're short 1 CD and can even end up dying yourself, see below as a great example of a holo dying to a build that it should absolutely take a dump on. A mistake was made but it was a decent decision to make.

>

> https://clips.twitch.tv/AlertAlertCasetteAMPEnergy

>

> Downstate is largely OK when you have proper teams, they will bait you into the rez and then cleave you, the damage in the game is so high a rez is very risky atm, much safer to use merciful intervention/signet of mercy. A FB can easily rez in a FB/Scourge duo because they can cleanse while rezzing or slap down resistance symbol which will mitigate a lot of damage from the scourge. This is also why most scourges wait to use the elite when either they are going to down or the enemy will as it's very strong at preventing a rez.

>

> The only place downstate is really bad is when you're fighting 5 absolutely shocking players in WvW but can't kill any because they keep Rezzing.

 

I’m sorry you don’t seem to have played against a necro if you think that the downed state is okay in the current state. Do you know the damage a necro can do to you in it’s downed state? It almost killed me when I was at 22k hp. So after you down a necro spending all your skills and they are on cds, you now have to finish them off which isn’t easy especially with fear, the condi that’s coming in. You are basically at a disadvantage.

 

Now you may have a point regarding the mechanic when it comes to proper team games where every skill is prepicked for a reason. That doesn’t happen in spvp where we are grouped with random people. So I would suggest keep the downed state mech in games where it’s one team of 5 against another. But alter it when randomd are matched with each other.

 

One game we had a Druid and a necro who kept ressing each other up. A mechanic that rewards mistakes too often doesn’t encourage good play. Where is the 1v2 potential in pvp when you know they can just ress each other up putting you always at a disadvantage?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

some things are overtuned but this isn't a typical mmo where you can facetank stuff and expect to survive. its all about active defense here.

[Tazer.2157]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> some things are overtuned but this isn't a typical mmo where you can facetank stuff and expect to survive. its all about active defense here.

 

My gripe is with the downed state mechanic. When I down a person it wasn’t because I was face tanking their damage. I was actively dodging and using my skills putting them in a cookdown. Now they are resssed up and I’m basically defenseless. Most of my skills are on cd and my kill was for nothing. A person who is downed should be able to damage the opponent. If Anet decides to keep the downed state, at least make it like the one found in pubg. There should be a consequence for getting downed but in gw2 there is none.

 

 

[everyman.4375]

You can complain about the rez being too easy, but complaining about necro's downstate being too strong ? realy ? I assume you're fairly new, but you just have to learn to play around it, it's not that hard. You can even dodge the fear.

[Neil.3825]

Add to this, there is no balance between profession downed states.

[wanya.1697]

the fear of necro downstate is not that much a problem as every class has somekind of downstate CC so its more or less balanced

which is not balanced is the necro downstate autoattack as it does more dmg as other classes autoattack so it is a littebit harder to deal with necro downstate when you are already low

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

>

> > 1) Mesmer and Holo using invuln to rez is wasting one of their essential defensive cool downs. This is a choice between getting a rez to turn a fight into a 2v1 but if it backfires then it can end spectacularly as you're short 1 CD and can even end up dying yourself, see below as a great example of a holo dying to a build that it should absolutely take a dump on. A mistake was made but it was a decent decision to make.

> >

> > https://clips.twitch.tv/AlertAlertCasetteAMPEnergy

> >

> > Downstate is largely OK when you have proper teams, they will bait you into the rez and then cleave you, the damage in the game is so high a rez is very risky atm, much safer to use merciful intervention/signet of mercy. A FB can easily rez in a FB/Scourge duo because they can cleanse while rezzing or slap down resistance symbol which will mitigate a lot of damage from the scourge. This is also why most scourges wait to use the elite when either they are going to down or the enemy will as it's very strong at preventing a rez.

> >

> > The only place downstate is really bad is when you're fighting 5 absolutely shocking players in WvW but can't kill any because they keep Rezzing.

>

> I’m sorry you don’t seem to have played against a necro if you think that the downed state is okay in the current state. Do you know the damage a necro can do to you in it’s downed state? It almost killed me when I was at 22k hp. So after you down a necro spending all your skills and they are on cds, you now have to finish them off which isn’t easy especially with fear, the condi that’s coming in. You are basically at a disadvantage.

>

> Now you may have a point regarding the mechanic when it comes to proper team games where every skill is prepicked for a reason. That doesn’t happen in spvp where we are grouped with random people. So I would suggest keep the downed state mech in games where it’s one team of 5 against another. But alter it when randomd are matched with each other.

>

> One game we had a Druid and a necro who kept ressing each other up. A mechanic that rewards mistakes too often doesn’t encourage good play. Where is the 1v2 potential in pvp when you know they can just ress each other up putting you always at a disadvantage?

 

Yes I know very well how strong a necro's downstate ability is and how much damage it does, I play WvW as full zerk mesmer so they can easily finish me off if I don't play smart when they go down.

 

If 1v1: Bleed them out, a necro bleeding out is not helping to steamroll a fight in their favour.

If 1v2: You shouldn't EVER win a 1v2 in this meta unless the enemy is very bad. Even then just stalling it by kiting and ranging in (no range LoS nearby) to be annoying and keeping both there while preserving cool downs is the good play.

XvY: You have a team, if you go down they should have stomped or cleaved out the necro, can always rez/rally you. If not, suck it up you lost the fight, learn and adapt to the game that you're not likely to win the teamfights.

 

Necro downstate has been largely this strong for years, it's not new, people have learnt to deal with it and so should you.

 

Edit: Why are you complaining that you can't kill them in a 1v2? You do realise your allies are 4v3 across every other node and should win assuming they can find their rear with both hands.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > some things are overtuned but this isn't a typical mmo where you can facetank stuff and expect to survive. its all about active defense here.

>

> My gripe is with the downed state mechanic. When I down a person it wasn’t because I was face tanking their damage. I was actively dodging and using my skills putting them in a cookdown. Now they are resssed up and I’m basically defenseless. Most of my skills are on cd and my kill was for nothing. A person who is downed should be able to damage the opponent. If Anet decides to keep the downed state, at least make it like the one found in pubg. There should be a consequence for getting downed but in gw2 there is none.

alright sure I gotcha.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"everyman.4375" said:

> You can complain about the rez being too easy, but complaining about necro's downstate being too strong ? realy ? I assume you're fairly new, but you just have to learn to play around it, it's not that hard. You can even dodge the fear.

 

You can do quite a lot of damage as a downed necromancer, I can even recall a time where being downed was the best way for a necromancer to win a fight. That said, I agree with you on the fact that with such opinion the OP must be fairly new to the game. The downstate is a strategic tool that both side can exploit to win a match, it's only frustrating for players that tend to play for the "kill" and not for the "match".

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> Wait so builds made to synergize each other and players teamplaying is a problem but mirage, holo, soulbeast, deadeye solo damage and insane survivability is not?

 

what do you mean ??????

Anet

[Flumek.9043]

Rezzing is FAR from braindead.

It is actually what made gw2 special and creative. In gw, support isnt actually a healer for example.

 

THE REAL PROBLEM is poor balance and power creep.

Rezzing had a lot of counterplay around it. Not anymore with perma boons everywhere.

Rezzing was doable. Not with powercreeped dmg and AOEs, at start most stuff was single target.

Healing. at start, there wasnt much raw healing happening. Again, a 10k healing sneeze nowadays is worth basically a rezz in vanilla.

 

Rezz / stomp mechanic allows for clutch decision making, which is exciting compared to scripted dps rotations.

[Tazer.2157]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said

>

> You can do quite a lot of damage as a downed necromancer, I can even recall a time where being downed was the best way for a necromancer to win a fight. That said, I agree with you on the fact that with such opinion the OP must be fairly new to the game. The downstate is a strategic tool that both side can exploit to win a match, it's only frustrating for players that tend to play for the "kill" and not for the "match".

 

Oh really a strategic tool? Please elaborate how it is strategic when there is no disadvantage to ress a player for certain classes. Like I mentioned the Druid goes invisible to ress, a necro spams condi and rezzes all the while your skills are on a cool down. If someone can tell me how this is good for the game then I would understand.

 

 

 

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said

> >

> > You can do quite a lot of damage as a downed necromancer, I can even recall a time where being downed was the best way for a necromancer to win a fight. That said, I agree with you on the fact that with such opinion the OP must be fairly new to the game. The downstate is a strategic tool that both side can exploit to win a match, it's only frustrating for players that tend to play for the "kill" and not for the "match".

>

> Oh really a strategic tool? Please elaborate how it is strategic when there is no disadvantage to ress a player for certain classes. Like I mentioned the Druid goes invisible to ress, a necro spams condi and rezzes all the while your skills are on a cool down. If someone can tell me how this is good for the game then I would understand.

>

>

>

 

Different specs, different tools, different strats. Pulls/knockbacks/cleaves even if they don't always prevent rezes can punish players. And as previously said, it's a team game, and you should not expect an easy stomp in a 1v2 scenario if you can't save a safe stomp. Stomping is a channeled skill, still works on targets before the stealth.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said

> >

> > You can do quite a lot of damage as a downed necromancer, I can even recall a time where being downed was the best way for a necromancer to win a fight. That said, I agree with you on the fact that with such opinion the OP must be fairly new to the game. The downstate is a strategic tool that both side can exploit to win a match, it's only frustrating for players that tend to play for the "kill" and not for the "match".

>

> Oh really a strategic tool? Please elaborate how it is strategic when there is no disadvantage to ress a player for certain classes. Like I mentioned the Druid goes invisible to ress, a necro spams condi and rezzes all the while your skills are on a cool down. If someone can tell me how this is good for the game then I would understand.

>

>

>

 

Let's take the basis of the basis. Having a down player in the adverse team allow your own team to play with the numerical advantage as long as this player is down. Stomping him could end up with extra point but at the same time it hasten his return to the field. The same way, saving a downed teammate can hasten it's return to the field but it always come with a risk and sometime even at the cost of cool down skills or even building for it.

 

Every profession can build for ralying and it always have a cost. This ability to rez other player are done at the cost of damage or personnal defense. A necromancer could trait for more sustain/defense or better condi management instead of taking a rez trait. Elementalists could sacrifice damage, defense or utilities slot to specialize in rezzing. Same goes for all professions.

 

You are focusing on what bother you and you don't even take into account what the other players sacrificed to achieve this result. Trait, runeset, utilities slots... etc. They built for this result, they built to avoid unnecessary death and keep their team onto the field alive and kicking. They know that poison will reduce the efficiency of their build, they know that cleave can be fatal, they know that a nasty interrupt can make their effort worthless but, nonetheless they built for this because they know that alone you are weaker than with allies.

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said

> >

> > You can do quite a lot of damage as a downed necromancer, I can even recall a time where being downed was the best way for a necromancer to win a fight. That said, I agree with you on the fact that with such opinion the OP must be fairly new to the game. The downstate is a strategic tool that both side can exploit to win a match, it's only frustrating for players that tend to play for the "kill" and not for the "match".

>

> Oh really a strategic tool? Please elaborate how it is strategic when there is no disadvantage to ress a player for certain classes. Like I mentioned the Druid goes invisible to ress, a necro spams condi and rezzes all the while your skills are on a cool down. If someone can tell me how this is good for the game then I would understand.

>

>

>

 

Necro=low stability. Interrupt and dps.

[Tazer.2157]

If you think that resurrection is part of the gameplay then make only specific classes able to ress. Right now as a ranger I take down the opposing necro only to have him ressd back up immediately while my skills are on cd. Then the necro gets back up and spams condi while I cannot do anything. Currently the dmg sacrificed to ress does not make it a disadvantage. Ressing should be an option, either ress or take damage. Now ressing is a blind choice without consequence.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think downed state should be nerfed, I remember there was a good thread about it on the wvw forums. it shouldn't be removed tho… its an integral part of play. if people went from alive to dead with no downed state then this game would be trash. everyone would run yolo one shot builds (so all deadeyes) and TTK would make this game a 1st person shooter. most of the people who expect some of the typical mmo experience (basically all of gw) would leave.

 

edit

here is what I said in that thread

 

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> my version of the downed state nerf would be:

>

> remove the invuln going into downstate and getting up from it

> downed players start with 33% hp

> downed players can receive boons as well as condis and retain them when revived

> reduce the total amount of players that can rally from a single person or change the requirements

> reduce the total amount of possible ressers

 

and here is the thread link

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54785/downed-state-nerf-it/p1

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> If you think that resurrection is part of the gameplay then make only specific classes able to ress. Right now as a ranger I take down the opposing necro only to have him ressd back up immediately while my skills are on cd. Then the necro gets back up and spams condi while I cannot do anything. Currently the dmg sacrificed to ress does not make it a disadvantage. Ressing should be an option, either ress or take damage. Now ressing is a blind choice without consequence.

 

stop crying, people spend their traitlines and skill slots to go for rez build leaving behind important skills for survival. You should learn more about what weakness their build has by having rez build and approach enemy accordingly. Honestly i facepalmed so hard when a ranger cries about rez when they can literaly self rez by interrupting enemies multiple times from downstate and rezzing themselves.