why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game

[DragonFury.6243]

from the data of [gw2raidar](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/All%20raid%20bosses "gw2raidar") stat filter by each boss and by taking the most effective DPS build for each profession on every boss and rank them on scale 1 to 9 (1 top 9 bottom) if a profession have 2 DPS build i ll take the highest and it will be counted as 1

 

conclusion of the data is the global stat for all profession (highest possible score is 1 and lowest possible score is 9)

1-THIEF__________3

2-REVENANT______3.4375

3-ELEMENTALIST___3.9375

4-ENGINEER_______4

5-MESMER ________4.4375

6-GUARDIAN_______5.5625

7-NECROMANCER ___6.625

8-WARRIOR________6.9375

9-RANGER________7.1875

 

the data for more details

 

NECROMANCER 6.625

Encounter_____________________rank_____profession DPS / NO.1 DPS

Vale Guardian___________________6________________19.9/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________5________________18/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________6_________________19.7/23.2

Slothasor______________________8_________________17.5/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________5________________19.6/25

Keep Construct_________________7_________________23.8/29.1

Xera_________________________6_________________15.3/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________9__________________24.4/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________9__________________25.7/33.2

Samarog_____________________6__________________14.2/16.3

Deimos______________________8__________________16.7/26.8

Soulless Horror________________9__________________24.4/32.9

Voice in the Void______________4__________________13.9/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________6__________________35.1/46.5

Twin Largos__________________5__________________17.7/25.2

Qadim______________________7__________________13.9/18

 

ELEMENTALIST 3.9375

Vale Guardian___________________3________________20.7/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________1________________21.3/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________2_________________22.7/23.2

Slothasor______________________1_________________23.8/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________9________________14.6/25

Keep Construct_________________1_________________29.1/29.1

Xera_________________________2_________________17.4/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________5__________________27.5/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________3__________________32.6/33.2

Samarog_____________________3__________________15.6/16.3

Deimos______________________4__________________20.8/26.8

Soulless Horror________________6__________________25.7/32.9

Voice in the Void______________8__________________13.3/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________2__________________43.2/46.5

Twin Largos__________________9__________________NA/25.2

Qadim______________________4__________________15.5/18

 

MESMER 4.4375

Vale Guardian___________________5________________20.1/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________7________________17.6/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________5_________________21.1/23.2

Slothasor______________________5_________________20.4/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________2________________22.5/25

Keep Construct_________________6_________________26.1/29

Xera_________________________4_________________16.1/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________1__________________35.9/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________7__________________29/33.2

Samarog_____________________5__________________15.4/16.3

Deimos______________________5__________________20.5/26.8

Soulless Horror________________2__________________29.8/32.9

Voice in the Void______________2__________________14.4/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________9__________________33.1/46.5

Twin Largos__________________1__________________25.2/25.2

Qadim______________________5__________________14.7/18

 

THIEF 3

Vale Guardian___________________1________________24.2/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________2________________20.9/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________1_________________23.2/23.2

Slothasor______________________4_________________20.6/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________6________________19.2/25

Keep Construct_________________3_________________27.4/29

Xera_________________________1_________________18.7/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________4__________________29.8/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________2__________________33.1/33.2

Samarog_____________________1__________________16.3/16.3

Deimos______________________1__________________26.8/26.8

Soulless Horror________________5__________________27.6/32.9

Voice in the Void______________6__________________13.7/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________1__________________46.5/46.5

Twin Largos__________________8__________________17.2/25.2

Qadim______________________2__________________17.4/18

 

ENGINEER 4

Vale Guardian___________________4________________20.7/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________4________________19.3/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________4_________________21.5/23.2

Slothasor______________________6_________________19.8/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________3________________20.3/25

Keep Construct_________________2_________________27.5/29

Xera_________________________5_________________15.5/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________3__________________31.6/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________5__________________30.2/33.2

Samarog_____________________7__________________13.7/16.3

Deimos______________________3__________________22.7/26.8

Soulless Horror________________4__________________28.8/32.9

Voice in the Void______________3__________________14.3/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________8__________________33.8/46.5

Twin Largos__________________2__________________20.2/25.2

Qadim______________________1__________________18/18

 

RANGER 7.1875

Vale Guardian___________________8________________18.2/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________9________________16.9/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________9_________________18.5/23.2

Slothasor______________________7_________________19.1/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________7________________18.4/25

Keep Construct_________________5_________________26.3/29

Xera_________________________8_________________14.9/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________8__________________25.7/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________8__________________27.3/33.2

Samarog_____________________8__________________13.3/16.3

Deimos______________________9__________________16.6/26.8

Soulless Horror________________8__________________25.2/32.9

Voice in the Void______________5__________________13.8/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________4__________________37.6/46.5

Twin Largos__________________3__________________20/25.2

Qadim______________________9__________________13.4/18

 

GUARDIAN 5.5625

Vale Guardian___________________2________________23.9/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________6________________17.7/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________8_________________19.1/23.2

Slothasor______________________2_________________22.4/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________8________________17.9/25

Keep Construct_________________4_________________26.8/29

Xera_________________________9_________________13.6/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________7__________________26.5/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________4__________________30.5/33.2

Samarog_____________________2__________________15.8/16.3

Deimos______________________2__________________23.1/26.8

Soulless Horror________________7__________________25.3/32.9

Voice in the Void______________8__________________12.4/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________7__________________34.9/46.5

Twin Largos__________________7__________________17.5/25.2

Qadim______________________6__________________14.3/18

 

REVENANT 3.4375

Vale Guardian___________________7________________18.8/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________3________________19.6/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________3_________________21.9/23.2

Slothasor______________________3_________________21.6/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________1________________25/25

Keep Construct_________________9_________________21.9/29

Xera_________________________3_________________16.2/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________2__________________33.7/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________1__________________33.2/33.2

Samarog_____________________4__________________15.6/16.3

Deimos______________________6__________________19.3/26.8

Soulless Horror________________1__________________32.9/32.9

Voice in the Void______________1__________________16.4/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________4__________________36.5/46.5

Twin Largos__________________4__________________19.6/25.2

Qadim______________________3__________________17.3/18

 

WARRIOR 6.9375

Vale Guardian___________________9________________17.3/24.2

Gorseval the Multifarious__________8________________17.4/21.3

Sabetha the Saboteur____________7_________________19.3/23.2

Slothasor______________________9_________________16.2/23.8

Matthias Gabrel_________________4________________19.8/25

Keep Construct_________________8_________________22.2/29

Xera_________________________7_________________14.9/18.7

Cairn the Indomitable___________6__________________27.5/35.9

Mursaat Overseer______________6__________________29.8/33.2

Samarog_____________________9__________________12/16.3

Deimos______________________7__________________16.9/26.8

Soulless Horror________________3__________________29/32.9

Voice in the Void______________9__________________12.3/16.4

Conjured Amalgamate__________5__________________35.6/46.5

Twin Largos__________________6__________________17.6/25.2

Qadim______________________8__________________13.5/18

 

 

 

[Axl.8924]

What does the numbers mean on the site?

 

Im looking at that site now and both dragonhunter and holo have lower numbers.

 

Some have like 26000 next and the number after that is 41000 for instance:

 

Daredevil

 

 

(28,897) 41,262

[Mini Crinny.6190]

yawn this is just spamming now

[Axl.8924]

I think you might be just nitpicking a little.

 

On vale guardian:

 

Necros are around flat in the middle, they are above a bunch of classes including core wars, tempests, spellbreaker,s and a few others.

 

On gorseval scourge is quite strong

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429

 

its the second strongest one.

 

Sabetha:

 

Scourge second strongest support and condi.

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429

 

On cairn:

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17194

 

Power reaper is 8th. above guardians soulbeast core war and tempest

 

Support scourge is third strongest in carn the indominable.

 

on mursaat

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17172

 

Reaper is 10th place as power

scourge is 9th in condi

and second in buffs.

 

On samarog:

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17188

 

reaper outperforms holosmith for instance and soulbeast and is in 8th place.

 

On samarog: scourge seems to be second consistently.

 

Seems to me support scourge still pretty strong.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game?

- Necromancers specs mainly favor AoE.

- Necromancers condition builds have potential in condition damage tied to corruption.

- Necromancers have a way to mitigate damage that do not prevent them from dealing damage.

 

These 3 answers can all explain the "why".

- Fighting against a single boss don't and shouldn't allow aoe to shine.

- Boons have little meaning on boss which are already "overbuffed" by design and even if it had meaning there wouldn't be any meaning in them producing enough boons to make boon corruption perform on it's maximum potential.

- Being able to deal damage while mitigating damage allow the profession to have a stable dps output in comparison to other professions, those profession thus need more burst to compensate which open a gap in dps as soon as the mechanics of the encounters are mastered.

 

Solution to the issues (these are just examples):

- Add diversity in boss encounter, for example create encounters where the raid group encounter a group of boss with that support each others and fight all at the same time.

- Make boon corruption corrupt a part of break bar into fear (just like some traits that trigger on interrupt happen to trigger with an ICD on break bar)

- Introduce a "duelist" e-spec that can't use it's damage tools while mitigating/"nullifying" damages.

[Axl.8924]

But its not the lowest, its dependent on that the boss is either a large boss small boss tons of add no adds etc.Depending on those circumstances you can have better or worse results.Look at samarog: Tempest and weavers have good large target attacks, so naturally they do good.

 

If anything:The stats I showed above show that reaper is viable, and scourge is also really viable as a healer.

[Farkon.2170]

More skilled players play Necro for the challenge, so while it's still optimal, you have to put in 4x the amount of work towards it without top tier results.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think if trained right all specs of necro have good dps, it’s the fact that it’s mobility and defensive capabilities are way behind most other specs in today’s version of the game,shroud was a decent defensive skill back in the day with a 7 sec CD and it’s damage was balanced with that in mind it seems but today with the invul,blocks and mobility handed out frequently to other professions shroud doesn’t serve as a good defensive tool as it once did, especially with the damage being thrown around these days

[Psycoprophet.8107]

But yeah backline aoe spam is definitely effective in zergs if fb beside u and that’s fun for ya

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game?

> - Necromancers specs mainly favor AoE.

> - Necromancers condition builds have potential in condition damage tied to corruption.

> - Necromancers have a way to mitigate damage that do not prevent them from dealing damage.

 

 

I would agree if we didnt see other professions that

- Also favor aoe but deal considerably potential higher damage while not being punished for fighting single targets as well.

- Have condition builds that ramp much faster without being tied to corruption and outshine a necros potential with perfect corruption rng

- Have ways to completely avoid damage that dont prevent them from doing damage.

 

So to be fair its still a question of why some parts of necro are so under tooled.

[Anchoku.8142]

I know this is common knowledge but would like to add that much of Necromancer's core tool set is "soft CC."

 

Before the break-bar, which specifically _includes_ soft CC with control effects, a large part of Necro's offensive debuff and sustain, still good in PvP, was rendered useless by the introduction of Defiance in late 2012.

 

* Blind

* Chill

* Cripple

* Fear

* Immobilize

* Poison (reduced healing effectiveness)

* Weakness

 

These conditions, whether AoE or not, are crucial to Necro viability in PvP, WvW, and on PvE mobs without Defiance.

 

Necromancer has lower dps because these debuffs are supposed to lower the opponent's dps below Necro's if they are not cleared.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Debuffs are almost uselesss nowadays with easy boon reapplication via boon spam,share and clears,sounds good out loud and on paper sure. Scourge aoe and barrier are only good in group setting, gets dismantled solo and that’s fine it’s good Zerg spec but for core relying on debuffs which suck and reaper melee focused spec it’s shredded by all but noobs through kiting and the crazy other melee specs with higher sustain,invulnerabilites,block and mobility

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Man I just schooled that holo or Boonbeast by debuffing the crap outa him, said no one lol

[Noha.3749]

What.

Condiscourge is great in any encounter with adds.

Reaper is probably the #1 easiest powerprofession to do well with, and due to that will outdps alot of harder professions until we starting to look for pronumbers.

(probably even easier than deadeye rifle due to naturally bulky, AoE and doesnt lock the reaper down in comparison (looking at you, Kneel))

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Debuffs are almost uselesss nowadays with easy boon reapplication via boon spam,share and clears,sounds good out loud and on paper sure. Scourge aoe and barrier are only good in group setting, gets dismantled solo and that’s fine it’s good Zerg spec but for core relying on debuffs which suck and reaper melee focused spec it’s shredded by all but noobs through kiting and the crazy other melee specs with higher sustain,invulnerabilites,block and mobility

 

Pretty sure the thread is about PvE and not WvW/PvP.

 

Debuffs are very potent in both PvP and WvW and the necromancer always shine in WvW (maybe not "roaming" but still WvW).

 

The real issue of the necromancer have always been PvE, or rather "end game PvE" and, there, debuff tend to be lacklusters. Like Anchoku said, debuffs used to be even more useless in this part of the game, now at least they have some effects on the breakbar. I'd say, on the debuff part, that the reason that they aren't valued is that they both are easy to apply whatever the profession and have a less "visible" impact on the fight than boons. Swiftness let you move faster while cripple don't affect the boss mobility, quickness let you hit faster while slow don't reduce boss attack rates, alacrity reduce your cool down while chill don't reduce boss CD... etc. All those debuff do is damaging the breakbar which is up, what, maybe 20 seconds on a 5 minute boss fight (yeah I'm generous).

 

DeceiverX would say that the problem of the necromancer in PvE is that mobs aren't players and that ANet should not buff the necromancer but instead make a PvE environment closer to what PvP is. He is right in a lot of way and GW1 PvE was just like that, however, in the GW2's context my personnal opinion is that it's not achievable especially due to the "dodge" that players have and mobs don't.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Necros are very strong pve and debuffs are good as well if and when npc’s have boons,a lot don’t. I disagree with debuffs being useful in any pvp these days, they were yrs ago though. Necro not great end game pve especially core or reaper. Their weird in that the shine hard untill late game. I do apologize though if this was pve only I didn’t mean to derail anything

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Necro deff doesn’t need pve buffs lol maybe buff in mobility but that’s it

[Teratus.2859]

The way I hear it is because Necromancer is the most naturally tanky class thanks to it's high health and death shroud mechanic.

Even when playing glass stats it's survivability is much higher than most others.

Likewise it is very easy to build the Necro into something that is able to tank a ton of damage while also still being able to put out a respectable level of damage.

 

It'll never be and probably should never be capable of being top tier in DPS because of that.

Suits me fine though.. I love the class the way it is and don't care about outperforming others in DPS anyway.

I'll take that survivability bonus any day over higher dps. ^^

[Psycoprophet.8107]

if Pve yeah shroud adds good sustain, pvp it’s one of the weakest options in game and gets bursted down in sec but poster above has one of the best mindsets to approach these games lol it is a fun class

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

The OP is spending a lot of time collating stats which ultimately don't matter.

 

* Mathematically, some profession is going to be lower than others.

* Some professions will dominate in multi-target scenarios, some in single target scenarios.

* Regardless, the more important thing ends up being how well can the person run their chosen build.

 

In the heyday of Weavers completely dominating optimal DPS benchmarks, when my fractal static took on a PUG weaver, they were usually lowest DPS. During the same period, Necros were in worse shape than today and they were typically above average.

 

There's useful information to be gleaned from scouring Raidar; we just aren't seeing it here.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Necros are very strong pve and debuffs are good as well if and when npc’s have boons,a lot don’t. I disagree with debuffs being useful in any pvp these days, they were yrs ago though. Necro not great end game pve especially core or reaper. Their weird in that the shine hard untill late game. I do apologize though if this was pve only I didn’t mean to derail anything

 

Seriously? What game are you playing?

PvE: defiance/breakbar make most debuff almost useless. Mobs don't have CD on their skills so chill debuff is useless. Mobs don't heal themself so poison lose half of it's efficacity. Mobs don't dodge so weakness work at half it's potential. Slow could have no effect on mobs that you wouldn't see the difference with what it does. NPC seldom have boons.

 

And you think debuff are weak in WvW/PvP? Nothing make a power build player whine more than weakness. Ask a thief if he like to be slowed down. Ask players if being crippled non stop by a scourge is enjoyable. Ask reapers why their chill uptime is so low despite chill being "their" condition... etc. Maybe condi builds (as in damaging condition build) are seen as less effective in the current meta but "soft" condition (or debuffs) absolutely aren't, if anything they hurt more in a power meta than in a condi meta.

 

The thread show a list of PvE boss and the top dps necromancer's build performance on them compared to other professions. The thread can't be anything else than PvE.

 

That said, I agree with you, the necromancers don't "need" buff in PvE, they need end game PvE to be more "friendly" toward them. That's why I suggested raid's encounter to feature more than a single target at the same time. That's why I suggested that those target should buff each other instead of being naturally "overbuffed". That's why I suggested boon corruption to affect the breakbar like it would affect someone that have stability on them. And that's why I suggested that the next e-spec shouldn't have it's tools focused toward countering a god forsaken WvW meta but oriented toward a role in which the necromancer don't really shine: duellist.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I said debuffs are ok on npc in pve if they have boons which isn’t often so definitely wasn’t implying they were great and u are throwing the 2 classes at me that have shit boon spam lol one of them the class were this thread is asking for buff? debuffing any spec of mesmer, ranger,guardian,hola and even yes scourge and they will pop boons as fast as u rip them and u will lose out hard, sry but I sdisagree

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I’m wrong on shit often and maybe I’m wrong on how effective debuffs are but in my own experience and from how they effect me when I’m on ranger or guard I find them a nuisance at most

[Obtena.7952]

OK let's go with this line of thinking.

 

People want high performance, so I set the filter on 99% and 90%.

For fun, I pick warrior because I think warrior is a desirable class. I set filter for all raids.

 

Warrior is #1 for power, #4 for condi and #5 for support.

As another check, I verify if warrior ranks for individual bosses are reported correctly by the OP ... and they are. NICE!

 

So here we are, with a class that on average does #1 in power and #4 condi DPS and has respectable #5 rank in support (whatever that is) ... yet is SECOND LAST when you look over all raid bosses in the 90% and 99% range. If I change my filters to 50% and 60%, warrior takes a MASSIVE DPS downgrade, more inline with the 8th place ranking. In fact, if you look at the top three power DPS classes, they are the last 3 classes on the ranking list provided by the OP ... so what's going on here?

 

Maybe (and it makes sense) that the average numbers are heavily skewed to low performances. Maybe DPS isn't the deciding factor for high performance players? That last one is speculation.

 

So now I look at Necro in the same way. I set my filter to 50% and 60% ... necro is about the middle power, low condi and mid support.

I do the same for the filter @ 90% and 99%. It's top in power, middle in condi and middle in support.

 

PS ... site is annoying because it won't sort from highest to lowest.

 

SO the question for me is: **How did the OP conclude Necro was one of the lowest DPS classes?** That's not what the data says.

 

You know what I DO see? I DO see that Necro doesn't bring very many team buffs. Here is my hypothesis:

 

**It's difficult for necros to get PUGs because they don't have team buffs, not because they don't have DPS.**

 

 

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

I would prefer not giving up my survive-ability for a slight increase in DPS. I don't mind being a little behind in DPS if i can easily stand and tank most PvE content regardless of the fact it takes longer to kill it than most.